Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: Pieter on May 25, 2010, 09:49:35 AM
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Hello all
There are a lot of Pleione hybrids made so far. If I counted correctly on Paul Cumbleton’s list, there are 297 registered hybrids. This number does not include the selected clones. That is an impressive number. But we all see the catalogues with the commercially available Pleiones and when we do the math, things don’t add up.
Talking to an other forum member, Slug Killer, about the availability of Pleione hybrids, he told me that some Pleione hybrids are not available because they no longer exist and others are to difficult to multiply.
So it would be very interesting to see what Pleione hybrids and selections are still out there amongst the enthusiasts. This would make it possible to make a new list with the existing Pleione.
If you want to share this information, please do.
Thanks
Greetings
Pieter
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Hi,
when you say the hybrid no longer exists, I assume you mean that you cannot find a plant to buy. A hybrid, once made and registered, exists forever, because anyone can re-make the hybrid and call it by the same name.
Therefore you can think of two lists, one of registered hybrids which will go on increasing, and one of available plants, which may fluctuate, depending on the difficulty to multiply, peoples tastes etc. etc. I feel that the second list may be much too volatile to maintain and for all you know, someone somewhere may be growing old hybrids with great success but has no access to the internet or is not interested in publicity or the maintenance of lists. ;D ;D
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Hello Maren
Yes exactly. But I also meant that it is possible that a hybrid was once registered but proved very difficult to keep so that it lost all intrest in it and in such a way got lost, maybe forever.
It is true that any one can make an existing hybrid when ever possible. That is also something interesting to know. Since some hybrids are made with a selected clone, it could be possible to make the same hybrid but this time with an other clone from the same species or grex that can be better.
It wouldn't be the exact same hybrid but it could be a good form that has a bit more vigour. In case of Edgecomb, the current stock is known to have a low resistance to black pit fungus. Many people have remade that cross and maybe there are strains that are more resistend. ???
Of course, ::) in today's age, you may think that everybody has access to internet but there still are people that don't have the possibility or even chose not be linked to the world wide web. The greatest example of all, Ian Butterfield. And it could very well be that some where, some can mass produce the rarest hybrid without any one knowing it. Those are the hidden treassures that keep us all dreaming, hoping that one day it will emerge. ;D
Maybe we should stick to the simple list with the Pleione that are able to increase and are known to be a part of the common trade.
Good thinking Maren
Greetings
Pieter
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A really interesting topic and something I also thought about while searching for certain hybrids or cultivars.
As far as I understand it is impossible that a hybrid can become extinct because anyone could do it again (as long as a certain species doesn't become extinct) and it had to get the name already registered for this cross. Certain cultivars (grex) might become extinct though because all plants true to one cultivar name do go back to just one plant.
I think that a hybridiser would keep each cross he ever did and so every Pleione hybrid should be theoretically available. But obviously some are bad growers and simply hard to keep alive let alone to multiply them. While looking at the pictures at Paul's homepage or in "The Genus Pleione" I wonder why beautiful and very distinct hybrids like 'Burrator', 'Helgafell', 'Kohala', 'Mazama' or 'Tsingtau' (really love this one!) aren't widely available or aren't available at all.
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Pieter
I would just like to be able to look at a list that also had 'named' cultivars/groups not just the original hybrids cross (grex) or species.
For example Pleione Nozomi grex, Liane Group or as Pln. Nozomi gx, Liane Gp.
Pleione Nozomi was registered by M Hazelton last year.the same cross tried to be registered a few weeks later by Gunter Blankenburg as Pleione Liane. Hazelton registered the new hybrid days before Gunters application was received but as Gunters looked very different it was given a group name (which in this case was what he was going to call the hybrid 'Liane').
Pleione Nozomi - M Hazelton 2009
Pln. Nozomi gx, Liane Gp - Gunter Blankenburg 2009
There does not seem to be anyway to see these 'group' lists online or paper form from the RHS orchid Registry.
Please let me know if there is.
David
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I think this is a good idea ( I, too have looked at the pictures in the second edition of The Genus Pleione and dreamed!). However I must confess to being one of those individuals the Maren mentions. I have not obtained any new pleione for 15 years but have simply maintained those I got from Ian Butterfield and others prior to 1995. I was demoralised by a Brevipalpus infestation in the late 1990s and stopped getting new material, but thanks to advice from Paul Cumbleton my plants have been free of this pest for several years now. My plants are now very healthy and I enjoy growing them but I've never really re-engaged with the pleione growing community, or even look at this thread much. I'm sure that there are plenty of us out there who are quietly growing older clones, though in my case I doubt there is anything not available elsewhere.
That said - I do like the look of many of the newer hybrids I see your pictures of on this forum! And I cannot get over the availability of the pure species these days - 15 years ago this would have been unbelievable.
btw - are there now any white P. formosana clones that have a lip which fully expands? I find the slightly pinched look of my older ones such as 'Avalanche' and 'Claire' rather unattractive.
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Hallo Thomas,
Ian Butterfield sometimes sells a few pleiones that are not in his catalogue. If you like, I can ask him if he has any of the ones on your list. I believe I got Pln Tsingtau and Burrator from him a couple of years ago and they are very slow to multiply.
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Hi,
when you say the hybrid no longer exists, I assume you mean that you cannot find a plant to buy. A hybrid, once made and registered, exists forever, because anyone can re-make the hybrid and call it by the same name.
Once registered the 'name' exists forever but if there are no plants any longer available anywhere then the hybrid no longer exists until such time that someone does the cross again. You can't say something exists forever when there aren't any just because it has a name. If the parent species plant became extinct then it would be impossible to do the cross again. Something only exists if there is one.
David
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Hallo Thomas,
Ian Butterfield sometimes sells a few pleiones that are not in his catalogue. If you like, I can ask him if he has any of the ones on your list. I believe I got Pln Tsingtau and Burrator from him a couple of years ago and they are very slow to multiply.
Hello Maren,
I will send you a pm - thank you in advance for asking Ian Butterfield.
Don't know whether it worked cause I can't see any message within my outbox. ???
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Hi Thomas, I got your message and sent you a reply. Cheers.
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David
The list I have send you was one I could download fom the RHS website. Here is a link to the page where you can find the lists. I am still surching for more lists.
http://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/RHS-Publications/Orchid-hybrid-lists (http://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/RHS-Publications/Orchid-hybrid-lists)
Greetings
Pieter
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I have to reanimate this thread because I read about some older Pleione hybrids but couldn't find any pic online or at least someone mentioning to grow them. Within "The Genus Pleione" I found mentioned:
Beerenberg (Vesuvius x Eiger, 1989) - interesting because it is an early flowerer
Pacaya (Paricutin x Erebus, 1990) - the flower pic looks like a lighter coloured Quizapu 'Peregrine'
Rumpelstilzchen (hookeriana x Versailles, 1989) - "flowers resemble P. hookeriana, but larger and better growers" sounds very desirable
Topolino (Eiger x aurita, 1992) - early flowering and fragrant for the most clones
Is anyone growing these or has an explanation why are these so rare? I would also like to get my hands on a Littondale - in my eyes this is one of the nicest Pleione flowers.
Regards Thomas
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Not a hybrid but a cultivar - the one I'm curious about the continued existence of is P. forrestii 'Butterball' which is entirely yellow with no red marks. There is a picture in the second edition of the Genus Pleione but I remember hearing about this plant back in the early to mid 90s and also having a conversation with an eminent grower who believed it no longer existed at that time (i.e. before the picture was even published).
I'm interested to know if it is still around (not because I want one - P. forrestii is a species I find difficult). It does strike me as being the sort of form which could easily arise again anyway now that the species is being raised from seed.
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Not a hybrid but a cultivar - the one I'm curious about the continued existence of is P. forrestii 'Butterball' which is entirely yellow with no red marks.
The cultivar is named 'Buttercup'. Because the picture within "The Genus Pleione" is by I. Butterfield I would guess that maybe he might still grow it. Maybe Maren could inquire about that? ;)
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I'm sure I remember Ian telling me that this cultivar expired long ago. I have never seen another example of one like it, but as you say one like it could easily arise again as the amount of spotting on the lip is very variable.
Paul
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I remember talking to Ian about 'Buttercup' around 18 months ago and as Paul has said Ian told me that it has not been around for some years. Further to this I also think that he said that it had been in the collection of Keith Rattray in Aberdeen at the time. So if anyone had any plants from that source it could still exist ... if so then please put me on the list to acquire one!!!
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Brian, do you know if Keith Rattray is still in Aberdeen/ Aberdeenshire?
I have no idea of the timescale.... poor chap may be deceased or in Guatemala...... ???
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To answer your question Maggi - this is directly quoted from an obituary by Ian Butterfield in the 1989 edition of the now-defunct Pleione Report:
"It was with great sadness that I learned of the accidental death of Keith Rattray early in 1989. At 24 years of age he was the youngest contributor to the first 'Pleione Report' using as a title for his article ' A Passion for PLeiones'. He certainly had a passion, not only for pleiones, but for many other garden plants as well.
On entering his garden and greenhouse I was astonished at the amount and variety of plants, some quite rare, that somebody as young as Keith had collected together. Besides a superb collection of PLeiones, there were Lewisias, Cyclamen, Cortydalis, Fritillaria, Crocus, Snowdrops, Auriculas, Primulas and many, many more. All looked very hapy and were obviously growing well, atesting to his skill as a grower.
Keith's collection of pleiones had a number of very fine clones of p. forrestii and stock of p x confusa from four different sources, as well as the more usual species and hybrids.
Two years ago he started breeding pleiones and from the parents he used I believe he was going to create some beautiful new hybrids. He obviously had a very satisfying future to look forward to in the horticultural world.
Keith had nearly finished his studies at Glasgow University where his tutors said he had a brilliant future in front of him in the electronics industry. He eventually wanted to grow plants and was going to finance his dream by working in the electronics world.
I shall remember Keith not only as a very god friend, but as a grower who never ceased to want to learn more about the plants he loved - pleiones- whenever he had the chance.
Ian Butterfield. "
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Thank you, Darren.
How sad for such a young enthusiast to be lost.
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Talking of lists, some of you may (or may not) remember a provisional list of Pleione cultivars produced by the RHS back in October 2002.
This list, part of a pilot study on orchid cultivar registration by Julian Shaw, mentioned all cultivars and grexes known up to that point in time with, where possible, references to articles & books describing/mentioning the cultivar.
For all the new cultivars named since October 2002 no list exists, for all new grexes and especially the groups the Sanders List of Orchid Hybrids should be the source.
Kenneth.
PS: if someone wants to delve into Pleione history then I suggest picking up a copy of the June 1961 issue of the Orchid Review.
It amazed me to read that back then only 5 different named Pleione formosana clones were known/grown in the UK (and most probably in the rest of Europe as well): 'Blush of Dawn', 'Polar Sun' (there is however mention of a second white clone in the article, but no details are provided), 'Serenity' (anybody grow this one?), 'Oriental Splendour' and 'Oriental Grace' (the last two being the former Pleione pricei clones).
Incidently, does anybody know where and when Pleione formosana 'Cairngorm' appeared in cultivation?
I know some link this clone ( also known as 'W2' or 'Ruby Throat' to Sanders back in the 1960s but is this correct?
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To answer your question Maggi - this is directly quoted from an obituary by Ian Butterfield in the 1989 edition of the now-defunct Pleione Report:
"It was with great sadness that I learned of the accidental death of Keith Rattray early in 1989. At 24 years of age he was the youngest contributor to the first 'Pleione Report' using as a title for his article ' A Passion for PLeiones'. He certainly had a passion, not only for pleiones, but for many other garden plants as well.
On entering his garden and greenhouse I was astonished at the amount and variety of plants, some quite rare, that somebody as young as Keith had collected together. Besides a superb collection of PLeiones, there were Lewisias, Cyclamen, Cortydalis, Fritillaria, Crocus, Snowdrops, Auriculas, Primulas and many, many more. All looked very hapy and were obviously growing well, atesting to his skill as a grower.
Keith's collection of pleiones had a number of very fine clones of p. forrestii and stock of p x confusa from four different sources, as well as the more usual species and hybrids.
Two years ago he started breeding pleiones and from the parents he used I believe he was going to create some beautiful new hybrids. He obviously had a very satisfying future to look forward to in the horticultural world.
Keith had nearly finished his studies at Glasgow University where his tutors said he had a brilliant future in front of him in the electronics industry. He eventually wanted to grow plants and was going to finance his dream by working in the electronics world.
I shall remember Keith not only as a very god friend, but as a grower who never ceased to want to learn more about the plants he loved - pleiones- whenever he had the chance.
Ian Butterfield. "
Though a sad story.. :'( a very interesting one Darren, thanks for posting it !
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To answer your question Maggi - this is directly quoted from an obituary by Ian Butterfield in the 1989 edition of the now-defunct Pleione Report:
"It was with great sadness that I learned of the accidental death of Keith Rattray early in 1989. At 24 years of age he was the youngest contributor to the first 'Pleione Report' using as a title for his article ' A Passion for PLeiones'. He certainly had a passion, not only for pleiones, but for many other garden plants as well.
On entering his garden and greenhouse I was astonished at the amount and variety of plants, some quite rare, that somebody as young as Keith had collected together. Besides a superb collection of PLeiones, there were Lewisias, Cyclamen, Cortydalis, Fritillaria, Crocus, Snowdrops, Auriculas, Primulas and many, many more. All looked very hapy and were obviously growing well, atesting to his skill as a grower.
Keith's collection of pleiones had a number of very fine clones of p. forrestii and stock of p x confusa from four different sources, as well as the more usual species and hybrids.
Two years ago he started breeding pleiones and from the parents he used I believe he was going to create some beautiful new hybrids. He obviously had a very satisfying future to look forward to in the horticultural world.
Keith had nearly finished his studies at Glasgow University where his tutors said he had a brilliant future in front of him in the electronics industry. He eventually wanted to grow plants and was going to finance his dream by working in the electronics world.
I shall remember Keith not only as a very god friend, but as a grower who never ceased to want to learn more about the plants he loved - pleiones- whenever he had the chance.
Ian Butterfield. "
Though a sad story.. :'( a very interesting one Darren, thanks for posting it !
I'm glad I did. It set me on a trip down memory lane whilst looking through those old Pleione reports. The same issue has an article by Jan Berg on his '36 years with Pleione' and an account of P.hookeriana in the wild by Cribb & Butterfield. Not to mention a contribution on anthracnose fungus by Paul Cumbleton.
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Hi Darren,
thanks for bringing this to our attention. I shall have to dig it out and re-read it. :)
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Incidently, does anybody know where and when Pleione formosana 'Cairngorm' appeared in cultivation?
I know some link this clone ( also known as 'W2' or 'Ruby Throat' to Sanders back in the 1960s but is this correct?
‘Cairngorm’ syn. ‘Ruby Throat’. Cribb & Butterfield (1999): 115 descr.; Orch. Rev. 94: 93 (Mar. 1986)
David
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[‘Cairngorm’ syn. ‘Ruby Throat’. Cribb & Butterfield (1999): 115 descr.; Orch. Rev. 94: 93 (Mar. 1986)
David, thank you for these 2 references.
You found this refernce in the provisional cultivar list from Julian Shaw I refered to, correct? ;)
Now if you look at that 1986 article in the Orchid Review by Ian Butterfield he 'merely' lists 'Cairngorm' as of the known formosana cultivars in cultivation, no explanation is given for its provenance nor who introduced it and when.
Kenneth.
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Hi There,
Perhaps we need a ‘Lost & Found’ thread?
Personally, I’m trying to rationalise/reduce my collection BUT if anybody is still growing P. humilis ‘Kingdon Ward’ I’d love to see it again. It was so different from any other humilis I’ve ever seen that I guess it was mis-identified!! Somewhere, I’ve got an old kodachrome slide of it.
Tim DH
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http://www.pleione.info/imagepages/species/pleione_humilis6.htm
I remember that people also used to suggest it may just be a polyploid form. Certainly different either way. I alst saw it in Ian Butterfield's collection, I think.
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As far as I recall P. humilis 'Frank Kingdon Ward' was offered one or two years ago by a German Pleione seller. I will check at home with the catalogue (paper).
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Hi Tim,
I have just two bulbs of 'Kingdon Ward' - down from an all time high of 6 bulbs (so as you see, it has gone backwards!). Those 6 took many years to get; it seems to build up numbers very slowly for me compared to normal humilis. I guess that's why it is rarely offered for sale. If you do manage to get one from somewhere you should be able to tell if it is the "true" thing just from the bulbs - they are much paler, brighter green colour than the rather dark olive-green colour of a normal humilis bulbs, and have an extraordinary long thin neck.
Paul
Bulbs of Pleione humilis 'Frank Kingdon Ward':
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Wow!
Thanks for the responses... I'm glad it still exists!! Any chance on a photo of it in flower, to refresh my memory. (I don't ever remember Dad getting more than one flower at a time.)
Tim DH
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Alex (reply 26 above) posted the link to pleione info with a flower photo of 'Frank Kingdon Ward'. ;)
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Hi Tim,
Yes follow the link Alex posted to the picture on my website. Sadly, this clone is very shy of flowering. I remember Ian Butterfield telling me that he grew this for 15 years before he got his flirst flower! I have had it for about 9 years and in that time it has only ever flowered twice. So although an attractive plant I sometimes wonder if it is worth the effort!
Paul