Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Alpines => Topic started by: David Lyttle on April 02, 2010, 11:20:57 AM
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These plants are not exactly alpines as they all are found at sea level. However if you visit the south eastern part of Otago where they were photographed sometimes it does not require much imagination to believe you are in an alpine environment.
The first set are dune plants now becoming increasingly rare
1,2 Mazus arenarius Fruiting plants growing in a dune slack It can become quite damp where they are growing.
3, 4 Pimelea urvilleana Flowering and fruiting branches from the same plant. Note I have mis-identified this species as I was working off an old species list. The white-fruited hairy leaved species in my photos is Pimelea lyallii. Distribution is the southern coast of the South Island and Stewart Island. It is becoming uncommon in modified coast habitats.
5, 6 Lobelia arenaria (formerly Pratia arenaria) It took me a while to figure out what exactly this plant was but I think I have made the correct identification. The leave are large compared to other New Zealand Lobelia species and quite fleshy.
7.8 Gentianella saxosa It too me a while to find plants that were flowering and accessible - this species grows on steep eroding cliffs. There is only so much I will do for a good picture.
9, 10 Celmisia lindsayii this has similar habitat preferences to the preceeding species. There were a few late flowers about but none I could photograph.
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Thanks David they might not be growing in the mountains but they are in the same harsh environment and I am pleased to see all plants.
I love that Celmisia lindsayii especially the cliff habitat - great pictures.
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Thanks Ian for the kind words. When the forest returned following the last glacial maximum, Celmisia lindsayi retreated and now is found only on the cold exposed sea cliffs where trees cannot grow.
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David, thank you for showing us these plants growing in such
unusual conditions.
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Lucky you David that you have managed to get out .
Interesting to read your habitat comments on G .saxosa and to see it still in bloom --i would have expected blooming to be well over and down this end on the coast it is found on sea gravel just above the high tide mark.
Rained all day here Thursday --after a brief respite for a few hours yesterday it's bucketing down again this morning.
Sun is forecast for Monday :D so i might be able to get out in the hills and start collecting a little seed however i'm half way through planting out about 900 native shrubs at the local airport and with work backing up might need to go there instead....Decisions decisions ::) ::)
Celmisia lindsayi does really well in the garden here even liking cool half shaded spots --it's only drawback is that the clumps tend to get a bit scruffy after awhile --i've just demolished a wide patch ,(to make room for more Trilliums ;D ), but kept/started some cuttings ....
Cheers Dave
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Hi Dave,
It fine here though overcast. It is meant to rain later today. I thought that most of the G saxosa was finished and the plants were looking pretty battered but I found a few plants still flowering.
It was all buzzing at Cannibal Bay and Surat Beach yesterday. Quad bikes zooming up and down the beach; people watching sea lions and sea lions watching people. We had planned a family excursion to the Catlins several weeks ago but on the day we had originally planned to go there was a tsunami warning because of the Chilean earthquake so we went elsewhere. I managed to snatch some time for a little bit of quiet botanising and take a few photos.
I have grown Celmisia lindsayi before but lost it. Probably not wet enough here.
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We had good rain late yesterday (Saturday) and through the night. Haven't been out to measure how much but a decent fall anyway.
I bought a Mazus from a local garden centre (Red Barn) just a week ago mainly because the flowers (smallish, bright purple) looked like those of M. reptans which I've previously lost. This one was just labelled Mazus Matapouri Bay so I wonder if it is arenarius? Where is Matapouri Bay? The leaves are the same shape as on your pics David. The flowers are finished with the rain, but I hope there might be some fruit. They also had Mazus radicans but labelled M. reptans. They all came from the native nursery near Waimate.
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Hi Lesley,
New Zealand has several species of Mazus; Mazus arenarius (coastal Otago and Southland, quite rare and probably not in cultivation), Mazus novae-zelandiae ( two subspecies one found in Otago also uncommon), Mazus pumilo (an Australian species that has been recorded from one locality in Northland which has lilac flowers) and Mazus radicans which is a common widespread species. Mazus reptans is an exotic species originally from the Himalayas. Matapouri Bay is in Northland.
Lesley, you of all people should know you cannot trust any names on plants in garden shops ( a plant gets misnamed and the error is perpetuated for ever) but your plant from the Red Barn could conceivably be Mazus pumilo.
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I do indeed know David, about garden centre names, many of which are coined simply to make the plant easier to sell. So, for now, I'll go with M. pumilio, possibly collected at Matapouri Bay. I'll take a photo when it flowers again, probably not till next summer though.
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I visited the Red Barn yesterday to get some lettuce plants and I saw the Mazus ' Matapouri Bay' plants while I was there. I am inclined to agree with you that it is Mazus pumilio. The inflorescence of Mazus pumilio in New Zealand is described a lateral with up to six flowers. The plants in Red Barn had multiple-flowered inflorescences. Mazus pumilio is known in New Zealand from a single population from Whananaki, Northland which is about 20 km north of Matapouri Bay. (see Heenan and Forester(1997) NZ Journal of Botany 35437-440)
On the subject of mis-labelled plants I picked up a pot supposedly of Astelia nervosa that contained a flourishing specimen of a weedy little Carex (well they are both monocots). At least the manager threw it out when I drew it to his attention.
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Managed a trip into Northern Southland yesterday.
Although the weather forecast was for temps to reach 20c with minimal wind there was a heavy frost earlier on so it was bitterly cold as i rode up the slope on my poor mans four wheel drive,(aka motor bike ) :).No good for the chest cold i have and no good later on as i began to over heat and started to drip ,(sweat), far more so than i normally do :P......
My visit was primarily to collect seed ,luckily i had my camera on board as there were a number of gems still in bloom.
Pentachondra pumila forms large purplish coloured patches ---it is fairly wide spread in this area and can be found in cushion bogs as well and around rock out crops where the soil is thin.Has very small seeds in an over inflated pod/berry.
Leptinella pusilla again forms extensive mats ,this time in cool late snow bank areas .It has a delicious honey dew scent picked up when you drop to your knees --If the chemists could bottle it, it would be a winner..... ;D
Lycopodium fastigiatum (i think this has had a name change .....) ::)
Interestingly while weeding around the plant (housekeeping for a pic), I brushed one of the upright cones and noticed a lot of spore material being released.
Cheers Dave.
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Continuing...
Raoulia subulata forms moss like growths which one tends to overlook until it comes into bloom.Found on late snow banks .
I'm wondering if these plants have a long blooming period as I'm certain i photographed them over a month ago during a previous visit.Might have to have a look at my picture library .
*Gentiana amabilis loves a wet spot .Here it is in sphagnum moss.
Coprosma perpusilla growing through a cushion --a common scene.
A Colobanthus Sp's.
Finally a number of *Gentiana shots--one with a background of the first of the autumn snows.
*Another name change ? ::).
Rightio that's it from me --maybe a couple of seed trips into other areas before the end of the month then i can hang my boots up for another season. ;D
Cheers Dave.
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A really good day Dave. I hope the chest cold hasn't developed further into something worse.
My favourite among all those pics is the delicious Coprosma perpusilla. They are so perky and glossy - almost edible-looking - there.
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Continuing...
Finally a number of *Gentiana shots--one with a background of the first of the autumn snows.
*Another name change ? ::).
Rightio that's it from me --maybe a couple of seed trips into other areas before the end of the month then i can hang my boots up for another season. ;D
Cheers Dave.
Afraid so Dave. You had better change all your gentian picture captions to Gentianella or someone will pull you up on it when you give your talk in Scotland :).
I am very envious of you getting out this weekend in such nice weather. Seeing your pictures I wish I had been there as well - I tried to persuade JF to go on a trip to the Lammermoors last Thursday but he had to work. Went up to Christchurch this weekend for a family birthday. If anyone is ever tempted, never ever go to the Speights Alehouse in Bealy Avenue for a function. The service is dismal. However I managed to catch up with a few friends which made the trip worthwhile and compensated for a party that was less than enjoyable!
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Speights' Alehouse in Dunedin do a very good plate of lambs fry and bacon with mashed potatoes and gravy. But Roger's advice would be avoid Speights altogether and go with Emersons or Kilkenny. ;D I'll stick with the vino.
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Afraid so Dave. You had better change all your gentian picture captions to Gentianella or someone will pull you up on it when you give your talk in Scotland :).
David
On a wider aspect that may happen and ,(not trying to be too flipant), if it does ,my thoughts are that birds will still be singing and the sun shining ;). Well ....hopefully there will be a bit of sunshine in Scotland in early October ;D .
Lesley
Thanks for your concern --not well enough to work today --in any case it's raining steadily at the moment and i wasn't really looking forward to 7 hours of manually cutting a hedge...although obviously that has only been put off for a day or two. :'(
Cheers Dave.
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Raining steadily eh? We've had 3 drops last night and 2 more this morning before it gave up altogether. The footpaths were wetted twice but not much else.
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Just a tease really as I dont have time to edit and put up a lot of pics.
On the subject of names its perfectly acceptable to use an older name as long as you cite which authority is being used. Seeing as none of us really state which authority we are using with each name I think its fine to use which ever name the most number of people know. Just because some taxonimist changes the names all the time doesnt mean we have to accept them. This is a gardening forum after all.
By the way the photo is of Hasstia pulvinaris var. minor Lang
Lang is the authority
April has been a much better month for getting out and about.
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On the subject of names its perfectly acceptable to use an older name as long as you cite which authority is being used. Seeing as none of us really state which authority we are using with each name I think its fine to use which ever name the most number of people know. Just because some taxonimist changes the names all the time doesnt mean we have to accept them. This is a gardening forum after all.
By the way the photo is of Hasstia pulvinaris var. minor Lang
You are correct of course Ross. However you have done a disservice to these esteemed gentlemen as you have spelt both their names incorrectly; it is Haastia pulvinaris var minor Laing :'(.
The naming of plants follows some rather complicated legalistic rules; names are assigned to a type specimen which should be deposited in a herbarium so any subsequent investigator knows what Laing had in mind when he named the plant. The plant needs to be formally described in Latin, and the description along with other supporting material needs to be published. (these days often as a comprehensive paper in a refereed scientific journal) The first validly published name takes precedence over any subsequent names. So when names are changed it is not necessarily done on a whim by some taxonomist. In the Linnean system, names imply relationships and it is the ongoing investigation of the relationships amongst the plants in question that lead to the assigning of new names. For example in her recent revision of the genus Meudt reduced Chionohebe myosotoides (Ashwin) B.G. Briggs and Ehrend to a synonym of Veronica thomsonii (Buchanan) Cheeseman as she could find no differences to justify retaining as a separate species . Ashwin had originally described this species from the Pisa Range in 1961 and placed it in the genus Pygmea. In 1976 Briggs and Ehrendorfer erected the new genus Chionohebe to accommodate it and the other snow hebes. Meudt choose to follow Garnock-Jones et al and return all Chionohebes to the genus Veronica. I am happy that Chionohebe myosotoides is now gone as I was never able to find plants that differed from Chionohebe thomsonii on the Pisa Range where the type specimen came from. However like many other New Zealand botanists I prefer to retain the genus Hebe and Chionohebe so I will refer to it as Chionohebe thomsonii (Buchanan) Briggs and Ehrend. This still leaves some problems round the edges; the Northern hemisphere botanists need to sort out their own Veronica species as the genus can no longer be considered monophyletic if Hebe is excluded. Chionohebe densifolia (F Muell) B.G. Briggs and Ehrend does not fit well into Chionohebe and if we choose take this view and not to use the name Veronica and we must accept the treatment of Heads and call this latter species Hebejeebie densifolia (F Muell) Heads. (sometimes we need to swallow dead rats)
So what is in a name? A botanical name reflects our understanding of the plant that we are interested in and its relationships to other plants. Over time as we gain new knowledge these understandings will change. Whether we accept or reject a name will depend on our knowledge and understanding of the plants we are interested in.
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Lang Lang (even if on two lines ;D) is an absolutely brilliant Chinese classical pianist.
(I'd never dare suggest that Linnean should be spelt as Linnaean. ???)
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Well Im sure you are right and as I said I was posting in a hurry.
I rarely post in here because even though I think that people might like to see some pictures of nice plants in interesting environments the only comments I ever recieve are that Im wrong in some way or form. Im mildly dislexic and its quite hard for my to get letters in the right place when I copy them. Iv posted on other simmilar forums and they seem to be more inclusive and tolerant.
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Don't take offence, Ross..... it is just that it is better for search engines finding references to plants if the spelling is correct and for the botanists among us it is their main focus! There are plenty of us here who are not so hot at spelling, whether because we're dyslexic, like Ian Young or lousy typists, like me :-[ ;)
It is possible to see corrections being made to folks all through the forum but it is all meant for the best and not as a personal criticism at all, I promise you. Take a leaf out of Ian's book and be glad of the help..... otherwise it would look like he's writing in some ancinet forgotten language! :-X
It's great to enjoy your posts and I hope you continue. :-*
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Ross,
I am sorry, no offense was intended. Perhaps I have spent too much time in teaching situations evaluating presentations that criticism and correction has become a habit. You are welcome to counter my opinions with your own.
The point of my last posting to this thread was that to accommodate new knowledge from time to time taxonomy needs to change. The example I gave serves to illustrate that this process is not always straight forward and in some instances can be quite contentious.
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Well Im not your student David. I spent 4 years learning Botany and learnt alot every day I was there. I just think that if someone spends 2 hours editing and posting some photos that it would be nice to actually get some acknoledgment of the effort involved other than you spelt that wrong and that name is wrong. If Im put off by this, I imagine other people may be compleatly put off posting. Maggie: Im happy you correct my spelling for the search engines you usually do it without making me look an idiot by just editing the post quitly in the background.
I feel that there are better ways to get respect than by embarrasing people and puttting them off. For me Botany is a joy and fun. Its the same kind of feeling I imagine my 15 month daughter gets when she sees an unusual plant and solemenly says prettttty. Every time I post on here Im just trying to share my enthusiasm for plants Im not presenting a paper at a symposium. Im first and formost a gardener and a plant hunter and if you dont like that maybe you should avoid my posts. I have visited many interesting places in the last couple of months and I have not posted because I thought I would get jumped on for every minor mistake. So who misses out?
I know that plant names change and I know why but I sometimes think its easier if everyone knows what plant you are talking about rather than being correct and being the only one that knows.
Alpines should be fun and if everyone said 5 positive things for every negative the world would be in a better state than today.
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Ross, we really WOULD like to see your pictures, especially an old lady like myself whose arthritic back and knees have just about stopped all mountain trips now. So please do continue to post them if you can.