Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Diane Whitehead on March 18, 2010, 12:29:49 AM
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In order of height, here is what I have flowering now.
Trillium hibbersonii from cliffs in the Clayoquot Sound area of the west
coast of Vancouver Island.
Trillium rivale from the Siskiyou Mountains of SW Oregon and NW
California.
Trillium ovatum subsp maculosum from Gualala on the California coast
north of San Francisco. It began flowering white the first week of February,
and then turned dark pink as is normal for ovatum. It is now shrivelling,
but has been decorative for six weeks.
Trillium albidum, also from the Siskiyou Mountains. I also have a
plain-leaved plant.
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...and here's my little Trillium nivale...
http://bestc.am/jmfe
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Lovely to see some fresh trilliums in bloom. T. nivale is always super and a favourite though doesn't really thrive for me. The T. hibbersonii seems to like something mossy around it Diane? I've found it reasonably short-lived and would welcome advice on encouraging a bit longer life from it.
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I put the hibbersonii seedling close to the trunk of an almond tree
and encircled it with white rocks so I wouldn't accidentally dig it.
That was about 40 years ago. It has gradually increased into a clump,
this year with 19 flowers. The clump is small - my hand can hide it
all, except for the two flowers that have moved outside the white rock.
A couple of years ago the almond tree blew over in a storm and the moss
appeared very recently, so I can't say hibbersonii requires moss.
The area where it is native gets enormous amounts of rain - 6 to 9 metres
(YES, metres - over 6000 mm) - and also summer fog. Victoria gets 1/10
as much. I water that part of the garden every couple of weeks in the summer.
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Thanks Diane. I think mine must have been far too dry then. I now have only a small batch of seedlings germinated about 10 months ago. I'd better move to the South Island's west coast. Their rain too, is measured in metres rather than millimetres like mine.
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I have never been successful at growing Trillium hibbersonii from seed.
I've tried only a couple of times - usually I donate the seed to
those who don't have a plant. A nurseryman in Oregon has tried
growing my seeds a couple of times, also without success.
I asked advice of Richard Fraser of Thimble Farms who bought his stock
from the Hibberson family, and sells ones he grows from seed.
He said I was likely suffering rodent predation. He needs to cover
his seedling trays to keep mice out.
So last summer I sowed seeds again, and have kept them covered. They
germinated sometime in November, and here they are (on the left)
to compare with Trilllium rivale which germinated in December. You
can see how much faster rivale grows.
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Yes, my little hibbersoniis are just like that have have not grown at all since they germinated. I expect a true (tiny) leaf after they've died down for winter and hopefully come through again.
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Always the first to bloom is Trillium nivale. The first photo showing mature plants and young flowering-size seedlings taken on March 27th, 2009. The day after that photo, the plant was eaten to the ground by deer.
The second photo shows the same plant, this year flowering a week and a half earlier, but much smaller, probably weakened by having all above-ground parts eaten last year.
There's always a bee.
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A lovely thing Mark. I do have some problems in my garden but not, thank goodness, deer, gophers, moles, voles, squirrels, wildcats, lions, tigers, elephants..... or people who steal my palm trees.
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My first Trillium nivale 2010
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A selection of Trillium rivale in flower here today,
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A few more.
The last two are Ovatum x rivale Trillium rivale 'Del Norte'
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The last one for today
Trillium flexipes
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The last two are Trillium ovatum x rivale
No, they aren't. This is a misnamed plant with which I have been involved for many years.
The plant making the rounds as T. ovatum × rivale is traceable to an item in the seed exchange of the Alpine Garden Club of BC, 20 or so years ago. I grew a few seedlings from this, and they proved to be extremely vigorous plants that were prolific bearers of viable seed, which I then distributed far and wide under the same name.
It's quite clear that this is no hybrid: raise as many offspring as you wish, and you will never see any signs of hybrid origin. There is some variation in flower shape and markings, but nothing out of the ordinary for T. rivale, which varies widely in those details. Richard Fraser at Fraser's Thimble Farms on Saltspring Island concluded that the proper name is T. rivale 'Del Norte', and I now agree with him.
That original donation came from Boyd Kline, in Medford, Oregon. In a letter to me, he said that he'd found the original plant on French Hill in Del Norte County, California (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41.825124,-123.9711&spn=0.0449,0.077076&t=p&z=14), with the putative parents growing together at the top of a bank, at the bottom, the supposed hybrid.
Now Boyd Kline knows that country and its flora like the back of his hand, and if he says he found a hybrid trillium on French Hill, it may be taken as granted that he found a hybrid trillium there. But what ended up at the Alpine Garden Club of BC's exchange is clearly no hybrid. I have never been able to determine when and where the mistake in identity occurred.
So change your labels to Trillium rivale 'Del Norte' and all will be well. Sorry to be the thrower of cold water on your pride in this plant; this is not the first time I've had to correct the same misnaming.
It is possible that this is a tetraploid form of T. rivale, given its vigor and rather larger size than normal. However, there is no scientific evidence on this point.
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When you've mopped up the cold water Michael, and dried off your clothes, I'm sure these delightful trilliums will still gladden your heart. The pure pinks are particularly lovely.
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So change your labels to Trillium rivale 'Del Norte' and all will be well.
Done,
Thanks for pointing this out Rodger,I was a little suspicious myself but as this is the only plant that I bought (all the others are grown from seed) I didn't question the Name on the label because it came from a reputable nursery.
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So change your labels to Trillium rivale 'Del Norte' and all will be well.
Pardon my naivety, but if this is not a hybrid, then why is it not simply T.rivale
If I acquire seed from a T. erectum in Anglin falls, am I at liberty to call it T. erectum 'Anglin Falls'?
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Oh Hallelujia! At last someone NOT obsessed by adding cultivar names. :-* :-* :-*
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So change your labels to Trillium rivale 'Del Norte' and all will be well.
Pardon my naivety, but if this is not a hybrid, then why is it not simply T.rivale
If I acquire seed from a T. erectum in Anglin falls, am I at liberty to call it T. erectum 'Anglin Falls'?
Because somewhere, at some point in time, some nurseryman — possibly Boyd Kline when he owned the Siskiyou Rare Plant Nursery — assigned the name 'Del Norte' to a form of Trillium rivale from Del Norte County. The whole point was that the plant was distinctive in some way from run of the mill T. rivale. Remember, too, that the rules regarding the publication of cultivar names are a great deal less stringent than those regarding botanical names. A nursery catalog with a date on it is adequate.
I've actually seen an early reference to T. r. 'Del Norte' somewhere in my 35 years of wandering through the thickets of horticultural literature, but I've not been able to find it a second time, so I can't say just what the distinction was originally. Inquiries to the present day Siskiyou Rare Plant Nursery have gone unanswered. A very dim and very uncertain memory is that the original 'Del Norte' was a pure white form. Certainly the plants we're talking about show great vigor compared with everyday T. rivale (as though any trillium is "everyday"). In my own garden, the 'Del Norte' form seeds about so freely that it is slightly weedy.
As for your Trillium erectum 'Anglin Falls': by all means give your plant a cultivar name if it is distinctive.
I am dodging an important issue: was the original 'Del Norte' considered a clonal form, or was the name applied to a seed strain? I honestly don't know.
There are a very few other cultivars of T. rivale, viz. 'Purple Heart' and 'Vern Ahier'. I have 'Purple Heart' from an extremely reputable source, but oddly enough a seedling of (supposedly) T. r. 'Rosea' has a much darker, purpler heart! 'Vern Ahier' is a clone, characterized by unusually broad, overlapping petals, white with red speckling. It's fully within the normal range of variation of T. rivale, however, and if you raise enough seedlings with a sufficiently diverse gene pool, you will get plants that resemble it in various ways.
I will accept that the situation is a mess, but at some point the only way to preserve one's sanity is to throw one's hands up in despair and accept the judgement of people with greater experience in such matters.
At the end of the day, the fact remains that supposed T. ovatum × rivale are misnamed, and are definitely not hybrids.
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I'm pretty sure there was a lot of discussion re this whole T. rivale x ovatum thing, and subsequent ID as rivale 'Del Norte' on Trillium-L, maybe 2 or 3 years ago or more, before I became bored with the whole thing and opted out. 4 months of hearing that everone's Trillium this or that was flowering and 8 months of hearing that it wasn't, not to mention all the hoo-ha about whether this or that species WAS a species and whether it lived on this or that side of some road in deepest Tennessee.
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Hello Michael/Rodger
Here is a pic from back in Sept. of a large Trillium rivale doing the rounds down here in NZ as T.rivale 'large white' with a normal sized T.rivale for comparison . :o
This one as well seeds around all over the place--with the rhizome multiplying vigorously.Over Easter i split a clump up again to pot up 6 plants to give away in the spring.
Lesley while i'm also no longer a member of Trillium L i do visit regularly as there have been some wonderful Trillium pics posted to the aligned photo gallery.
Cheers Dave.
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A few Trilliums from yesterday.
albidum
erectum
grandiflorum double
cuneatum
johnw
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Trillium variety in Anglin Falls, Kentucky
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What wonderfully varied trilliums - and only one cultivar name.
Such a contrast to snowdrops!
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;D ;D ;D
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Are these erectums Alan, or maybe flexipes? The variation is wonderful. :D
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Are these erectums Alan, or maybe flexipes? The variation is wonderful. :D
Well I believe they are erectum. They all have the maroon ovary but I'm far from an expert on trilliums. According to Flora of North America, T.erectum has "ovary dark purple to maroon, even in white-flowered forms" whilst it lists T.flexipes has having "ovary white,"
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Oh yes, thanks, I should have known that. In fact, I DID know it, somewhere in the dim dark recesses of what's left of my brain. ???
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And I should have mentioned too that T.flexipes is more prevalent towards the west of Kentucky. Anglin Falls (or more correctly the John B. Stephenson Memorial Forest) is more Inner Bluegrass being in the Berea Forest area. Interestingly, we have never seen flexipes in the wild. Not that it doesn't grow near us, more that our compass always takes us east.
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We are still on slow dial-up and don't get a chance to contribute, or even read, very much on the forum. This tiny beauty is the first of our trilliums to bloom - Trillium nivale - the snow trillium. This year the snow has gone quickly, and it is blooming about two weeks sooner than normal. Although you can't see them, the first seedlings are appearing under the leaves. This plant is from a small start in 06.
Sharon
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Pusillum RoadRunner
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What makes it distinct?
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I'm not sure if this is Trillium ovatum or a small form of grandiflorum. It flowers early and is increasing in my garden.
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That is a very beautiful plant of nivale Sharon. I'll bet someone starts calling it a hybrid with T. pusillum, with that wiggly edge to the petal. :-\
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No clue why it's named roadrunner, I believe I bought it from Garden Vision Epimediums. I don't have any other Pusillum, so I can't say what the difference is.
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Erectum with white eye, and two tone on outside.
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I discovered that one of my Trillium smalli had a dark ovary, can it be the variety atropurpureocarpum?
It is the first time I have a flower in chloropetalum 'Ice Cream'
Karl Kristensen,
Denmark
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Has anyone had more then two stems with Erectum from one plant? Just curious most I have seen is two, but with Grandiflorum they clump up.
Picture 1-2 Grandiflorum
Picture 3 Erectum
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No clue why it's named roadrunner, I believe I bought it from Garden Vision Epimediums. I don't have any other Pusillum, so I can't say what the difference is.
Trillium pusillum 'Roadrunner' is a 2007 introduction from Joe Pye Weed's Garden of Siberian Iris hybridization fame; they're about 20 miles from where I live. The proprietors are Marty Schafer and Jan Sacks, both keen plants people who have revolutionized the state of hybridization in Iris, but they grow and hybridize many other outstanding plants as well. This Trillium selection, sold by Garden Vision Epimediums, was selected for its very fast spreading and propagation, unlike most forms of the species that are notoriously slow. I added this to my garden last year, just 2 blooms this year, so I'm waiting for it to do some road running :D
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Mark, I couldn't find the catalog. Makes sense though "Roadrunner", mine has 10 leaves this year. Next spring lets see what it does............beep beep
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Though my own plants are small, I'm pretty sure there are numerous plants among Trillium growers in New Zealand, of erectum with many stems and flowers, some really big clumps in fact.
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Trillium grandiflora,
Trillium decumbens.
Trillium decumbens foliage.
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My Trillium grandiflorum is still in tight bud, but T. ovatum is well out, as seen by T. o. 'Roy Elliot'. I also have just one T. rivale 'Purple Heart' and my T. kurabayashii is flowering for the first time.
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Hello Anthony
I have the idea that the petals of my Trillium kurabayashii
are much longer as yours
or are they elongating later
here some pictures of mine
Roland
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Hello Anthony
I have the idea that the petals of my Trillium kurabayashii
are much longer as yours
or are they elongating later
here some pictures of mine
Roland
Not sure Roland. This is the first time for me and they grow in the shade of an Acer dissectum. Yours look really stunning.
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Here are a few sessile Trillium
T. cuneatum yellow - from a population that is about 60% + yellow flowered plants and they are also short growing.
T. underwoodii
T. cuneatum double
T. luteum Giant - see the Hydrastis below, Tiarella in front, P. obovataXmairei to the left, and Cardiocrinum to the right.
T. oostingii
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Aaron, the pic labels associated with the first two pics are cuneatum. I assume this is wrong? I have decumbens, but it is the normal reddish colour. So far the blackbirds haven't torn the leaves. They sometimes rip them to shreds trying to "turn them over" looking for beasties like they do fallen leaves.
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According to Case and Case, T. kurabayashii can have petals between 55-110mm long. This is quite variable.
Dark forms of T. chloropetalum have often been confused with T. kurabayashii. They both have a purple ovary, but the first blooms about a month before the later in the wilds, which may help seperating them at a glance, although garden climate may place them closer together.
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Anthony,
Yes, cuneatum - corrected now. Should not post so early before waking up completely! Just imagine a population of 60% yellow decumbens!
Aaron
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Anthony,
Yes, cuneatum - corrected now. Should not post so early before waking up completely! Just imagine a population of 60% yellow decumbens!
Aaron
But, of course.... I did just that.... been hyperventilating ever since..... Ian is lying down in a darkened room ::) ;D
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At a talk I heard a couple of years ago, it was stated that an absolutely infallible ID for T. luteum, out of flower, was the central leaf stripe, but as your pic Aaron, of T. underwoodii has that stripe, I assume the information was wrong?
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I'll get together some photos of the other sessile Trillium from the eastern US that all have central stripes. In my experience, T. luteum has a 50% cover of silver maculation over green - only two colors. Besides that it always has a lemon scent to it. T. cuneatum in areas where the two overlap can sometimes have a lemon fragrance also, but is usually brown and has cuneate petals. The area just north of me is almost a continuous hybrid zone of the two species.
A quick perusal of my photographs and plants in the garden shows reliquum, decipiens, underwoodii, maculatum, cuneatum, sessile, foetidissimum, ludovicianum, gracile, discolor, and a single T. luteum with a silver central stripe!
Aaron
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Aaron, the double T. cuneatum is very COOL. I have just one 3-yr seedling of T. underwoodii from John's collected seed, seeing that nice clump, it'll be worth the wait to have it flower one day.
The Trillium are coming on strong, many just starting to peek color at the tips of the buds. Just ran outside and snapped a few pics:
1. T. reliquum (center) in two forms, with center leaf stripe, leaves of T. nivale on the left, T. decumbens on the right.
2. T. decumbens, two forms. T. lancifolium on the right, and seedlings.
3. T. grandiflorum Multiplex (or Flore Pleno) - this clump now has over 50 stems, of which about 34 are flowering (some small budded stems are concealed by foliage). I'd like to dig and divide it, but I fear I will not be able to extract it from the base of Magnolia 'Forrests Pink' that it is growing under.
4. T. rugelii - also growing right next to the Magnolia trunk, about 20+ stems now, but at least this one produces seedlings.
5. T. rugelii - taken in 2006, showing the large, thick-textured nodding recurved flowers with waxy purple-red ovary and stamens.
I really like this one. Flowering amidst Epiemdium x 'Amanogawa' (E. acuminatum x dolichostemon).
6. T. rugelii - seedlings among a sea of non-flowering Erythronium americanum.
7. T. gracile - Aaron, I think I have it in too dry a spot, is it found in moist conditions? Finally a bud.
8. T. foetidissimum budded up, foliage marbling is variable, thanks Aaron.
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Aaron, Mark and pehaps others who really KNOW your trilliums - as opposed to the likes of me who really dosen't - it would be great if, in coming days or weeks you could show some comparative pictures of TT. rugellii and cernuum and point out the differences. I've had what is supposed to be the latter for some years but it looks exactly like everyone else's rugellii, and plants sold under both names here appear to be identical.
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Trillium erectum has finally decided to settle in after a move last autumn.
johnw
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Michael & Mark,
I've always loved T. decumbens. It's a shame they are impossible to come by around here and I've heard they are almost impossible to grow here too.
How do you grow them?
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Forgot to post this pic,
one of three groups of T. rivale flowering here now (which were all very kindly given to me by a friendly forumnist).
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Michael & Mark,
I've always loved T. decumbens. It's a shame they are impossible to come by around here and I've heard they are almost impossible to grow here too.
How do you grow them?
Mine are growing on a slope under a Magnolia tree, in our native rocky clay soil amended with well-decomposed pine bark mulch. T. decumbers rarely offsets, or takes a very long time, it took 8 years for mine to to offset. I also have some seedlings coming along, just a few, into their third year; will probably need to wait at least 2-3 more years to see a bloom. The seed was not my own, as with my plants I either missed the seed (when I was working in the past) or it is not as free with seed as are some other Trillium species.
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OK, here are the first Trillium I've ever bloomed. I am very happay. Both I received last Summer from Göte and they have done extremely well. I received other plants later in the season, as is the typical shipping time for Trillium, and none of these has come up, although I assume they are still there, only resting a year. For me, this is a clear statement from the plants, they want to be transplanted right after going dormant, not later in the Autumn.
The first plant is currently call a T. erectum, as it seems to fit this süpecies best, although it was apparently purchased under another name. It is an album, although there is a tinge of red on the petal tips.
The second is simply T. grandiflorum, which makes me very happy just looking at it. Man, simple pleasures! Now I need to get the rosea and pleno forms.
Göte, a huge thank you!
I'll post the T. luteum and the T. flexipes hybrid in a few days, as they are fully open.
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Just catching up on this thread - some superb plants! Would growers of T nivale please advise me on suitable growing conditions?
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Hello annew
They are easy growers
Don't buy dry bulbs most dry bulbs are wild collected Always plants.
Best are flowering plants then you know what you buy
its like snowdrops
plant the rhizomes horizontal in a rich soil shady or half shady place
at least the hottest part of the day don't let them dry out and watch out for snails
once a flower stem is half eaten it breaks down and a year is lost
pollinate the flower and put the seeds later near the parents
good combinations with Polygonatum , Maianthemum and Disporum
Roland
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Would growers of T nivale please advise me on suitable growing conditions?
It's a lime lover, and is very prone to depredations by slugs in my garden. I grow mine in pots (the slugs still damage them), and give each pot a generous pinch of lime once a year. If I'm repotting, I add extra lime to the potting mix.
It's native to quite cold regions, so may do better sited in a fairly cold microclimate if you have one. Many trillium species are native to the southeast States where the climate is on the warm side; not so T. nivale.
Be careful not to confuse T. rivale and T. nivale via typographical errors.
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Hi Anne,
My plants of T. nivale grow quite happily in my native acidic soil, out in the open garden under a deciduous Magnolia tree... no need for lime soils nor pot growing. I have numerous "in situ" sown seedlings of T. nivale coming along, at various stages of maturity, growing in the general area; all receiving full sun until the late-leafing magnolia adds a bit of shade.
The species is native to Eastern-Central USA, not the "banana-belt" southern portions of USA, but Missouri, Kentucky, and Virginia are certainly not the coldest regions of the USA. Try it in a spot with more spring sun, that's what it gets in nature.
Distribution map:
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=TRNI2
By the way Anne, you look so bundled up for winter in your avatar, maybe consider a warming-up spring avatar ;D
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It's going to be cold next week Mark. :(
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You are wrong Anthony
It will be a warm warm warm summer
it is already 29°C in the tunnels ;D 8)
Roland
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By the way Anthony
did the petals of your Trillium kurabayashii elongate
or did they stay the same length as on the picture
Roland
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They elongated. I'll check tonight Roland.
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Ok
otherwise I send you one of my babies
I am just about to divide them
Roland
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OK, here are the first Trillium I've ever bloomed. I am very happay. Both I received last Summer from Göte and they have done extremely well. I received other plants later in the season, as is the typical shipping time for Trillium, and none of these has come up, although I assume they are still there, only resting a year. For me, this is a clear statement from the plants, they want to be transplanted right after going dormant, not later in the Autumn.
Göte, a huge thank you!
I'll post the T. luteum and the T. flexipes hybrid in a few days, as they are fully open.
You are very welcome. Your pictures are reward enough. Actually I sent them BEFORE going dormat did I not?? (I do not remember :() Mine are just showing above the soil surface. You garden in the tropics ;D ;D.
Cheers
Göte
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Trillium grandiflorum roseum has been in flower a couple days, but the sun came out today to show off the flowers. The gusting wind is relentless today, so these shots were "live motion" pics... just shot a bunch until I got a couple in focus ;D
Attending a NARGS chapter meeting and plant auction a couple weeks ago, a 1-stemmed plant of this went for $50 :o ::)
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a 1-stemmed plant of this went for $50 :o ::)
Only $50? You should have seen the prices on this side of the pond... Lovely plant!
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Very pretty Mark.
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Anne, if you don't change your avatar, Mark will do it for you - or to you. ;D
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Mark maybe I can help ;D ;D ;D
Roland
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Somebody is manipulating my Posts
this morning it was 105 now 95
maybe Mark who is afraid for the concurrence ;D ;D
Roland
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Roland, I have been doing some "housekeeping" on the Forum and this may have resulted in the removal of some posts in a thread which has been closed.
Don't worry about it!
:D
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Poet's day, so I'm home early (actually have a very sore throat and can't stop coughing). Here are three flowering today. Two forms of Trillium grandiflorum f. roseum and T. pusillum.
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Very nice clump of Trillium pusillum
I am getting jealous
do you know the var.
Roland
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Poet's day, so I'm home early (actually have a very sore throat and can't stop coughing). Here are three flowering today. Two forms of Trillium grandiflorum f. roseum and T. pusillum.
Nice ones Anthony; really like the many-flowered clump of T. pusillum. Your two forms of T. grandiflorum roseum appear shorter than mine. The first one looks like it has dark pigment in the leaves too.
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I think the pusillum is the standard form. The first roseum is always dark, but refuses to increase vegetatively. It is the RBGE clone, which I've had since a single stemmed non-flowering offset. Both increase in height as the flowers open. The second clone is very variable, being darker some years.
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It comes I have a pusillum and a pusillum var. virginianum
I don't see the difference But yours is different as mine
Yours has smaller and longer leaves
Roland
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I don't think my pusillum is one of the named regional vars. Here's my T. g. f. roseum in the sunshine (it grows in full sun).
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Anthony , I've had the RBGE form of T. grandiflorum roseum for over 10 years ,it flowers regularly , but so far has only made 2 offsets .
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Just a few photos of kurabayashii in my garden. The photos date from last week and two weeks ago.
Enjoy.
Cheers,
John
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Just a few photos of kurabayashii in my garden. The photos date from last week and two weeks ago.
Enjoy.
Cheers,
John
:-* :-* :-*
;)
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Just a few photos of kurabayashii in my garden. The photos date from last week and two weeks ago.
John
John, a beautiful trillium and beautiful photos, I like how the sun can light up these dark flowers. This species seems popular on the European continent, but I haven't run across it here in the USA.
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Absolutely stunning John.
Anthony , I've had the RBGE form of T. grandiflorum roseum for over 10 years, it flowers regularly, but so far has only made 2 offsets .
Otto, nice to hear the RBGE form of roseum is grown down under. In the last four years mine has had 2; 2; 1 and 2 flowers. It has never made offsets in this time, unlike my paler versions, or 'Jenny Rhodes', which produces offsets like an explosion in very slow motion!
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Lots of Trillium coming into bloom after a couple very warm sunny days.
1 T. decumbens in two forms, one from Georgia on the left with lighter leaves and flowers, and the other from Alabama on the right, with darker foliage and flowers.
2. T. grandiflorum - I like the undulate flowers, the white flowers looking picturesque against the dark leaves of Epimedium x youngianum 'Tamabotan'
3. T. grandiflorum 'Multiplex' or Flore Pleno - overdue for lifting and dividing, with over 30 flowering stems this year.
4-5 T. lancifolium from Tennessee, a distinctive species with narrow leaves that angle downwards, and the very narrow maroon flowers. It seeds around, and in the photo you can see a couple younger self-sown plants flowering. Also seen, are T. recurvatum, T. decumbens, and T. reliquum.
6-7 T. reliquum - one of the best for foliage, here again seen in two forms. The first photo taken yesterday, flowers not quite out, the other photo taken this morning, the flowers had opened. I also weeded around the plant, removing Oxalis acetosella (easy) and a tiny invasive weedy veronica (grrrr), now better able to see the baby reliquum. You may also notice foliage of T. nivale close by.
8-9 T. rugelii - just starting to open its shy flowers, another multistemmed clump overdue for division, although it seeds about too.
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Thank you Dave, Mark, and Anthony.
When the sun is shining and my kurabs are flowering I always rush into the garden to take pictures. The sun gives such a stunning effect.
By the way Mark. There are a couple of nurseries in the West, who are offering kurabayashii. But there is a chance that this Westerner will not perform well in your Eastern American garden. The Western European sea climate fits well to kurabayashii, since it comes from wet coastal redwood forests in northern California/southern Oregon.
Cheers,
John
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A few other photos.
Cheers,
John
Trillium albidum 3199
T. albidum 3203
T. cuneatum 3118
T.kurabayashii 3102
kurabayashii 3237
kurabayashii 3240
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Stunning , beautiful , what can I say more
good collection
Roland
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This clump of Trillium grandiflorum f. roseum has darkened as the flowers mature.
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This clump of Trillium grandiflorum f. roseum has darkened as the flowers mature.
Mine too.
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I have several forms of Trillium apetalon in my garden and this year I have studied them closer. There is a great variation in color of the sepals, which I know is normal and in a few the ovary is dark, perhaps a varieties. I have a Trillium coming from Aomori, an area in the northern main island Honsu, Japan. Last year it has 3 red petals, this year it has none, but the ovary is dark and big and the stamens are also different from my Trillium apetalon. The man I got it from do not know what kind of species it is, he has had it in his garden for several years. Right now flourish my Kinugasa japonica.
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What kind of soil have you given your Kinugasa?
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Same soil that I use for some of my Trillium, peat, lot of humus (old leaves), fine gravel. They are planted in light shade.
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Here is my Trillium luteum blooming for the first time. Thanks, Göte! It's just gorgeous and seems to be right at home.
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Don't forget to get your nose in the flower, Jamie... it should smell lovely!
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Don't scrunch this beauty with your nose Jamie
it takes 7 years from seed
Roland
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Don't forget to get your nose in the flower, Jamie... it should smell lovely!
I'd like your reaction getting your nose down into this one, it is lovely ;D :o
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you guys and gal are scaring me ??? ??? :-\
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Some more Trillium:
1-3 Trillium catesbaei
4-5 T. vaseyi - hard to get photos of this lovely, petals wrap around backwards over the sepals forming a triangular shaped flower. Rugose flower texture, one of my favorites.
6 T. lancifolium at full anthesis, the flowers age a bright red and twist. T. decumbens & reliquum in background.
7 T. recurvatum, and a self-sown hybrid, first flowering of T. recurvatum x stamineum in lower center of photo.
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Don't forget to get your nose in the flower, Jamie... it should smell lovely!
Fruit salad with a good dash of lemon. :P
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We seem to keep pace with the rest. Trillium time is here.
1 Trillium grandiflorum roseum
2.Trillium chloropetalum
3.Trillium erectum album
4.Trillium cernuum
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Nice Trillium chloropetalum and Trillium grandiflorum roseum Oleg
by the way what do you mean with onion farmer
do you grow Allium ??
Roland
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Roland, you can blame me for Oleg's "onion famrer" nickname.... I gave h it to him when he was one of the early forumists to decalre his love for alliums! :)
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I do grow alliums. Roland. And like them a lot. As usual Maggi was quite inventive with the nick, I adore it. The earliest onions are still to flower here later this week, I think.
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And where would we be without onions? As a vegetable I use them in my kitchen most days, if not quite EVERY day. Life without onions is unimaginable. :D (I actually mean as a cook, not a vegetable ???)
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This is my grandiflorum double.
It was a gift from a fellow SRGC and Trillium-L listmember, who visited me a couple of weeks ago.
It is now flowering beautifully in the garden.
Cheers,
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Hi
I thought some of you trillium junkies might be interested in this little oddity which appeared in my garden
[attach=1]
One stem, six leaves, one flower with five petals and one with four.
[attach=2]
This is the normal flower.
This was sold to me as T. erectum cream which it clearly is not as normal flowers hang below leaves. Any thoughts?
Steven
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Hi
I thought some of you trillium junkies might be interested in this little oddity which appeared in my garden
(Attachment Link)
One stem, six leaves, one flower with five petals and one with four.
(Attachment Link)
This is the normal flower.
This was sold to me as T. erectum cream which it clearly is not as normal flowers hang below leaves. Any thoughts?
Steven
Hello Steven,
Sometimes one gets these freaks once in a while. I don't have these odd Trilliums but this year I had many Trilliums with only two petals. In normal years they all had the regular three. I don't know what the cause is.
Your erectum beige looks like an erectum. I did not quite understand what you mean regarding hanging below the leaves. Do you mean that your's is now hanging below the leaves, but should be above or do you mean that they are now flowering in an erect way above the leaves (which is normal), but should be below the leaves?
Sometimes one or two of many of my erectum decide to flower below the leaves for a change too, but the next year they will flower normal. Therefore next year's growing and flowering season will give you more information.
Cheers,
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With the extra leaves and the double-headed flower - as distinct from a double flower - perhaps this is the Trillium version of fasciation?
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At last also my Trilliums havs started.
First my oldest clump of grandiflorum.
Angustipetalum has had three stalks for at least the last four years but shows no sign of clumping.
Tchonoskii is perhaps not the most large flowered white.
The next picture is a couple of seedlings the fare one is the green/yellowish type of erectum which seems to come true from seed.
Trillium undulatum is not too easy in my place and demands a cool situation.
I believe that the last is albidum but I am not sure.
I pass on the name of the red one. I got it under wrong name - perhaps erectum but it has sulcate sepals ???
Cheers
Göte
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Göte, nice series of Trillium. Your nice grandiflorum patch looks like a short-stemmed form, how tall does it grow? And congratulations on T. undulatum, it is notoriously difficult species, albeit a bautiful one. It is native here, usually found in cool mountainous woodlands... I've seen it in the mountains of White Mountains of New Hampshire.
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A first time bloom on Trillium gracile today, this plant from Texas (thanks Aaron). It's rather neat and trim, looking somewhat like T. foetidissimum, but without a foetid scent.
The next one has garnered no comments so far when I've showed it, not sure why, as it is a striking species with very large showy red blooms, the uniquely shaped full flowers 8 cm across... T. vaseyi. Known as Sweet Wakerobin, it is sweet secnted (not detectable on this cold day today).
Now ready to open, the bud teasing me for a couple weeks, the suspense is killing me, a hybrid between T. vaseyi x T. grandiflorum blooming for the first time since I played around with pollen some years back. The scenario is perfect, both parents are in view in my images, with the giant baby in the middle. The foliage on the hybrid looks like like T. grandiflorum, just taller and much bigger, but the large, rather elongate downturned bud is clearly that of T. vaseyi influence. Today, some flower color is peeking through, mostly dark red but some white is evident too! Stay tuned.
T. vaseyi is well known to hybridize with T. rugelii, which I also grow, but I had wondered if it would cross with grandiflorum... evidently so.
Trillium vaseyi distribution map and info:
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=TRVA2
http://utc.usu.edu/factsheets/trillium/trillium_vaseyi/trillium_vaseyi.htm
Image:
http://plants.usda.gov/java/largeImage?imageID=trva2_003_ahp.tif
Trillium vaseyi (Sweet Wakerobin) in Flora of North America:
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=242102017
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Göte, nice series of Trillium. Your nice grandiflorum patch looks like a short-stemmed form, how tall does it grow? And congratulations on T. undulatum, it is notoriously difficult species, albeit a bautiful one. It is native here, usually found in cool mountainous woodlands... I've seen it in the mountains of White Mountains of New Hampshire.
Well thanks
I will try to remember to measure. I do not trust my guess. This clone is a clumper. I have quite a number of them (for being in sweden ;) )
Cheers
Göte
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At last also my Trilliums havs started...Trillium undulatum is not too easy in my place and demands a cool situation.
T. undulatum is generally considered ungrowable, so your flowering of it is truly remarkable.
From what the references say, I've gathered that it demands extremely acidic, boggy conditions, but your remark about needing a cool situation makes me think it does not like warmth at any time. Rather like Cyclamen purpurascens, which is a roaring success in Chicago with its cold winters, but an abject failure in my mild climate.
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Trillium flexipes is the last to flower here
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I wonder what the 'Holy Grail' is for trillium lovers? Here's 'Jenny Rhodes'.
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Probably a fast growing dark red Jenny Rhodes ;D
Roland
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At last also my Trilliums havs started...Trillium undulatum is not too easy in my place and demands a cool situation.
T. undulatum is generally considered ungrowable, so your flowering of it is truly remarkable.
From what the references say, I've gathered that it demands extremely acidic, boggy conditions, but your remark about needing a cool situation makes me think it does not like warmth at any time. Rather like Cyclamen purpurascens, which is a roaring success in Chicago with its cold winters, but an abject failure in my mild climate.
I have had it for nearly ten years. According to some people the problem is that in a warm summer night it will burn more energy than it could gather in the day whereas in a cool night it will have less expenditure. I do not know wether this is true but my experience is that a cool situation in my garden is better than a warm and my late friend Zita who gardened in 1-2 zones warmer climate had great difficulties with it. I may add that I have 18 hours of daylight this time of the year. I grow it in my ordinary soil which is rich in humus, well drained with a low ph but supplied with Ca from bonemeal. It is not a boggy situation but i irrigate overhead in dry weather and Chrysosplenium alternifolium grows (too) well nearby.
Cheers
Göte
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Gote, few if any other Forumists have been able to show Trillium undulatum and I think this is not your first time? We are so lucky to see it at all so you should be be very proud. Look at the number of times it has been viewed (enlarged) compared with the others in the same batch. :)
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I shall no doubt be slammed for asking the question, but I wonder why anyone would prefer 'Jenny Rhodes' to the pure, three petalled form of ovatum or grandiflorum? ???
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I shall no doubt be slammed for asking the question, but I wonder why anyone would prefer 'Jenny Rhodes' to the pure, three petalled form of ovatum or grandiflorum? ???
Holding my tongue on that one :-X :-X :-X
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the suspense is killing me, a hybrid between T. vaseyi x T. grandiflorum blooming for the first time since I played around with pollen some years back.
Any updates..?
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Gote, few if any other Forumists have been able to show Trillium undulatum and I think this is not your first time? We are so lucky to see it at all so you should be be very proud. Look at the number of times it has been viewed (enlarged) compared with the others in the same batch. :)
I am just lucky in so far that my climate is not too bad for it. I am unable to grow some others; mainly those from the US south east. Rivale is also seems impossible. In my part of the world plants are usually killed by the winter cold. I am slowly beginning to understand that some people have plants killed by summer heat.
Thank you for the kind words anyway.
Cheers
Göte
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Some Trillium flowering here;
T. simile
T. erectum f. album (bought as simile from a reputable UK nursery)
T. flexipes x erectum
T. albidum parviflorum - thanks, guys!
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Forgot to mention the size of T. simile, it's quite massive, and the flowers are larger than T. grandiflorum.
Do clumping forms of T. catesbaei exist? I have a tuber that's at least 10 years, and it's only produced a single offset in all these years.
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I am extremely surprised at seeing a cross between grandiflorum and vaseyi. I thought crosses between anything other than closely related trilliums was not possible.
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Mark, would love to see the supposed vaseyi X grandiflorum hybrid. It does not seem that it would be a possible cross based on genetics. It may have been the mentor effect -- pollen of another, but actually accepted its own pollen and self pollinated. Usually these plants are smaller though.
Arisaema, the T. albidum looks like T. parviflorum. Also please let me know the scent on your T. simile. Wet dog? I spent some time with one of the Trillium taxonomy experts recently and he is somewhat on my side in thinking that true simile is much rarer than thought. What is often sold as simile are intergrades of T.simile and T. erectum album, thus the larger size and vigor. True simile is also sweetly fragrant.
As to T. undulatum -- it does not require boggy conditions. I have seen it this year (and last) in dry acid woods, on rocks growing just under a layer of moss, and in gravelly trail sides. The only shared features between all the sites I have seen it at are soil pH of 6 or less, and the elevation where the temperatures remain cool and likely never get above 85F and have night temperatures that drop into the low 50'sF or colder.
Aaron Floden
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Arisaema,(Anne is Astragalus!!) really like the look of T. simile, such crisp triangular shape, clean white with dark center. Love the flexipes x erectum hybrid, reminds me of the color plate in Fred Case's "Trilliums" book showing the range of color forms of such hybrids. I agree with Aaron, your last photo is a ringer for T. parviflorum, matching photos in the Trilliums book.
There will be an update on my T. vaseyi x grandiflorum hybrid (I'm quite convinced that is what it is). It was cold and rainy all day yesterday, so the bud held off from opening. The two species are planted close to each other, and when they're in bloom, I can bend the stems to make the flowers touch :o :o :o, just for the fun of it, to see if indeed they can hybridize. This seedlings, and a few others that haven't bloomed yet, were the result of such fraternization. It's frequently repeated that vaseyi crosses with rugelii, and that only closely related Trillium species will hybridize. Well, my plants don't necessarily know these "facts" and might be more willing that one might think.
Checking this morning, the garden is soaked, the sun is shining, the flower is beginning to open... I'm so excited, the large anther/stamens are WHITE instead of maroon! Might be another day before the flower is fully open. By the way, my frisky grandiflorum and vaseyi flowers co-mingled again this year :o I wonder if my other stupid hybridization recently will take (decumbens x grandiflorum)... I'll let you all know in 5-6 years.
Previously in this thread I showed a hybrid T. rugelii x stamineum (self sown), and I think some of the T. lancifolium seedlings that are now mature and flowering are also hybrids, as the leaves are erect and broader, and don't recline backwards... these trillium might be more promiscuous that people realize.
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Aaron;
So T. parviflorum? It's from that same reputable UK nursery, they may want to check double-check their sources... Petals are 54mm long, 10mm wide and slightly greenish at the base. Plant height is 21cm.
It seems you may be right about the T. simile, only the smallest-flowered clone to the right in the picture is sweetly scented, the rest smell like wet dog or "rotten flower vase water". They came from Gatlinburg, TN.
Mark;
Don't keep us waiting too long! ;D
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Here the newest Trillium grandiforum Red form ;D ;D
special the dark colour ;D ;D is what I like
this was a reputable wholesaler in the past
of course there where also real Trillium grandiflorums in between
but it looks like wild collected rhizomes
Roland
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Roland;
My own T. erectum are from New York so I could be mistaken, but your plants look a lot like T. sulcatum...
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Arisaema,(Anne is Astragalus!!)
« Last Edit: Today at 01:12:35 PM by Maggi Young »
Thanks Maggi, I had just realized my mistake (mixing genera-alias-names up), came back to this thread to fix my message, but you beat me to the punch... there's no way to out pace magic Maggi!
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Its not my speciality
that's why I try to buy from reputable nursery's or wholesalers
they where mixed with T. grandiflorum
if they grow together it helps maybe to determinate
maybe some specialist knows the anwser
some close-up pictures maybe it helps
Roland
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Roland,
I would say Bjřrnar is right, it looks like Trillium sulcatum.
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What is the difference between T. erectum and Trillium sulcatum
I don't see much difference
or my real T. erectum are also T. sulcatum
Roland
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This is my Trillium erectum
Roland
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I'm no specialist, but I would say that the petals of Trillium erectum are narrower and (almost) not overlapping at the base. The petals of Trillium sulcatum are more recurving than the petals of T. erectum. Trillium sulcatum has longer flower-pedicels than T. erectum
Oh, and Trillium erectum stinks a lot more; so if you take a sniff you might be able to determinate them correctly. ;)
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Ok I powder my nose
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T. erectum is also earlier flowering, and has larger flowers compared to the foliage. Here's one of mine on the 5th of May:
ETA: I checked the Trillium monograph, and T. sulcatum does grow together with T. grandiflorum in the very area that most rhizomes are dug.
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Trillium catesbaei just continues to flower over a long period, the pink ones aging to a really bright pink. A few shots of the bright pink ones, all photos of my pale pink ones came out lousy so not included here, and one photo of a white one. For a nodding pedunculate species, the flowers show up well from above, as the wavy-edged foliage is narrow and not overly large.
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A really nice white catesbaei! This is a species that is on the borderline of being hardy here. Twice, a severe winter has cut it back so severely that it did not appear the following year (year 1) but slowly recovered from year 2. It has never split in over fifteen years.
When I dug my old clump of luteum I got so many offsets that I could give a few away. They also grew on with no setback whatsoever. I replanted the original plant in the original spot but it stayed under ground for the two following seasons. This year it comes back again but fairly weak.
My only ovatum only shows up some years.
This is a real dilemma. My vasyei was going towards elysium so I dug it up, dusted with benlate and it recovered in a new location. However, I suppose that if I had dug up my catesbaei, luteum or ovatum for inspection i might have killed them.
Göte
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I've lost a few Trillium to Dumontinia tuberosa when they were growing thru clumps of Anemone nemorosa, so I try to keep those genera (somewhat) separated in the garden. I've wondered if it's better to move Trillium now in flower here in the north with cool summers and a shorter season, rather than wait until they have started going over?
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The flower on Trillium vaseyi x grandiflorum has finally opened.
1 - the distinctive broad oval leaves on T. vaseyi
2 - T. vaseyi leaves on the left, and the relatively huge rhombic-acuminate leaves of the hybrid on the right... you can make out some leaves of T. grandiflorum behind. The leaves on the hybrid have the general shape and veining pattern of grandiflorum.
3 - the declining bud of the hybrid, very vaseyi-like, except light colored and with white streaks on the back of the petals.
4 - view showing the leaves and stature of both plants, and freshly opened flower on the hybrid.
5 - closer view of the hybrid's flower
6 - close-up of the flower. Notice in these views, the base of the back of the petals is whitish.
7,8 front view of the open flowers, the hybrid has white anthers.
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Looks like straight vaseyi to me. If both species are found together in nature hybrids would be either well known or non existant.
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I've lost a few Trillium to Dumontinia tuberosa when they were growing thru clumps of Anemone nemorosa, so I try to keep those genera (somewhat) separated in the garden. I've wondered if it's better to move Trillium now in flower here in the north with cool summers and a shorter season, rather than wait until they have started going over?
You should definitely NOT wait until they start to get dormant. Most of them start sending out new roots at the time the flowers begin to fade. They will not send out new roots when getting dormant - the root formation process is ended. This means that root damage will not be repaired until next midsummer.
I have divided clumps of dormant plants with the result that I lost more than half of the offsets. When I have divided when the flowers begin to fade I have had near 100% success.
A few of days ago I replanted a number of Trilliums in bud. They now seem perfectly oK and are flowering but the final verdict will not be had until next spring.
Cheers
Göte
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Göte;
I ment the flowers going over, not the leaves, but I agree that moving them in summer is far better than autumn. However, I don't think I've ever lost any that were divided or moved late, they've just skipped over a year or two before sprouting.
Trilliums do grow roots even when they are dormant, at least the completely dried out "Dutch" ones do, but like the seeds it's temperature dependant.
Mark;
I tend to agree with Anthony, I don't see any signs of it being a hybrid other than it's huge size... Both T. vaseyi and T. sulcatum can have those whiteish markings on the backs of the petals.
T. flexipes below, a poor form with nodding flowers, and a T. erectum that was received as an 'Askival Hybrid', anyone have a pic of the real thing?
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My personal opinion is that #A the genus Trillium has been the playground of splitters #B certain groups one of which is erectum-sulcatum-vasyei-flexipes-simile are just confused. Reliable people report that there are all kinds of intermediate forms.
Said that, I have to call them something so I stick to the supplier's name until I know better.
The first one is "simile" a very nice clone with large flat flowers. This year it even showed one quadrillium :)
I am embarking on a dividing and replanting job this year in order to get clumps separated (separated from weeds as well ;D )
The flexipes seedlings are those I mentioned in an earlier post as moved last week. They are fairly alike but not like th emother plant which holds the flowers above the leaves. The colour of the ovary, which the splitters seem to believe important, varies from pure white to dark purple. ???
The flexipes plant is another due to dividing. It is not the moteher plant but rather similar.
My oldest 'erectum' probably qualifies as sulcatum.
My bicolor ones probably are real erectum even if atypical in colour.
I believe this is rugelii
The name grandiflorum 'Snowbunting' comes from a fairly knowledgable person. This assembly is the result of cutting the rhizome a few years ago. they will no go to a more prominent place.
Cheers
Göte
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I think true Trillium grandiflorum 'Snowbunting' is lost. Most clones that purport to be 'Snowbunting' are selections from the clone prior to it being named. Paul Christian calls it 'Snowbunting' on the basis that it comes from that clone, even though he can't trace it back to the named clone. Blooms of Bressingham call the same clone, selected in the 1950s, " Flore Pleno". I have both, plus another form. The PC and Blooms forms are identical.
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Göte;
I ment the flowers going over, not the leaves, but I agree that moving them in summer is far better than autumn. However, I don't think I've ever lost any that were divided or moved late, they've just skipped over a year or two before sprouting.
Trilliums do grow roots even when they are dormant, at least the completely dried out "Dutch" ones do, but like the seeds it's temperature dependant.
I have attributed the fact that late replanted rhizomes make no show in the spring to that they have not developed sufficient root mass because (re-) planted to late. My lost offsets did not show up a year later - unfortunately. The lost ones were fairly small but similar size separated earlier in the year did fine. Can you give more details about your dried ones that rooted. You must be doing something right that I do wrong.
Göte
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I think true Trillium grandiflorum 'Snowbunting' is lost. Most clones that purport to be 'Snowbunting' are selections from the clone prior to it being named. Paul Christian calls it 'Snowbunting' on the basis that it comes from that clone, even though he can't trace it back to the named clone. Blooms of Bressingham call the same clone, selected in the 1950s, " Flore Pleno". I have both, plus another form. The PC and Blooms forms are identical.
Are you saying that it is the same clone as Snowbunting but not a direct decendant?
If so, I think we are getting highly esoteric.
A Swedish author once wrote: "The Illiad was written by a totally unknown person with the name 'Homeros' OR written by another man with the same name"
Göte
PS Swedish usage is to include the ending.
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I think true Trillium grandiflorum 'Snowbunting' is lost. Most clones that purport to be 'Snowbunting' are selections from the clone prior to it being named. Paul Christian calls it 'Snowbunting' on the basis that it comes from that clone, even though he can't trace it back to the named clone. Blooms of Bressingham call the same clone, selected in the 1950s, " Flore Pleno". I have both, plus another form. The PC and Blooms forms are identical.
Are you saying that it is the same clone as Snowbunting but not a direct decendant?
If so, I think we are getting highly esoteric.
A Swedish author once wrote: "The Illiad was written by a totally unknown person with the name 'Homeros' OR written by another man with the same name"
Göte
PS Swedish usage is to include the ending.
Actually Göte, you are confusing Shakespeare, whose plays weren't written by him, but by someone with the same name. ;D The clone that became 'Snowbunting' was split and given to Tom, Dick and Harry long before it was shown and given due recognition as a named clone. Tom suggests it should be, by lineage, called 'Snowbunting'; Dick sticks to the recognised convention and calls it 'Flore Pleno' and Harry just smiles inscrutably as others argue the point.
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My lost offsets did not show up a year later - unfortunately. The lost ones were fairly small but similar size separated earlier in the year did fine. Can you give more details about your dried ones that rooted. You must be doing something right that I do wrong.
I noticed some of the rhizomes had started shooting tiny, new roots when I received them last September, so I basically just potted them up and kept them at room temperature for a couple of months. I checked a couple of pots before throwing them outside in the benches in late November, and the roots had grown from a millimeter to a centimeter or so in lenght. T. catesbaei had some living roots when I got them, and the large majority have sprouted this spring, some with flower buds. T. recurvatum had no roots at all, but have also produced some sad looking plants.
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Since 'Snowbunting' is clearly a clonal cultivar (as opposed to a seed strain), all plants derived from the original plant by vegetative propagation qualify for the name even if they predate the assignment of that cultivar name. If someone can demonstrate that 'Flore Pleno' was given to that clone before 'Snow Bunting' was, then 'Flore Pleno' wins by virtue of priority but with enough wrinkles lying in wait to drive us all mad.
Wrinkle the first: If first published after a certain date, Latinate cultivar names ('Albiflora', 'Flore Pleno', Pallida', etc) are invalid.
Wrinkle the second: Valid publication of a cultivar name is much simpler than valid publication of a botanical name. The appearance of a cultivar name in a dated nursery catalog with a description suffices. These two cultivar names could have first appeared in very obscure catalogs. And since nursery catalogs are very much ephemera, unlike academic journals, few libraries have anything approaching comprehensive collections.The RHS has a sizable collection, as does the Bailey Hortorium at Cornell University in New York state.
Wrinkle the third: There is the question whether 'Flore Pleno' in its original use refers to the same clone as 'Snowbunting'. It's known that more than one double form of T. grandiflorum has been found over the years, vide Fred Case's book "Trilliums" in which two quite different doubles are illustrated side by side. Incidentally, Case says that the most common double form of T. grandiflorum is known informally as "Smith's double". He is, however, confused in his discussion whether 'Flore Pleno' is or is not a valid cultivar name.
The RHS Plantfinder lists both Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum 'Flore Pleno' and Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum 'Snowbunting'. Given that the Plantfinder takes considerable care about nomenclature, this suggests that somebody somewhere concluded that there are two (or more?) double-flowerd clones of T. grandiflorum. This does not mean that two clones haven't become confused in commerce.
It's a tangle wrapped in confusion and surrounded by bewilderment, but there may very well be information published on this issue already, perhaps in the RHS Journal, the Plantsman, or the AGS or SRGC or NARGS journals. Or perhaps someone can dredge through archives of the Trillium-L mailing list. Truthfully, without definite references to published literature we're all whistling in the dark. Is there anyone amongst us with librarianistic tendencies willing and able to dig around and see what turns up??? Or perhaps able and willing to pose these questions to the nice people who prepare the Plantfinder?
PS: A final Wrinkle the fourth to madden us all. It may be that 'Flore Pleno' and 'Snowbunting' are two clones that originated at different dates and places, but that they are indistinguishable. At that point we descend into a maelstrom of group names and can contemplate the delights of Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum Flore Pleno Group 'Snowbunting'. Where are the men in white coats when we need them?
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Rodger
I don,t believe nurseryman and garden centers are willing to make labels as
Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum Flore Pleno Group 'Snowbunting'
they will use Trillium grandiflorum Snowbunting or Trillium grandiflorum Flore Pleno
or we have in 10 years the same discussion with 3 names for the same plant
finally the commerce wins
Roland
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Wrinkle the first: If first published after a certain date, Latinate cultivar names ('Albiflora', 'Flore Pleno', Pallida', etc) are invalid.
One reason they are invalid, is that they are confusing, as they tend to sound like a form not a clone. In this case, the use of flore pleno, or fl pl, I am sure is used as a general name for any double and not for one particular clone. Which nuseries are particular enough to make sure 'Flore Pleno' has quote marks round it and capital letters thereby distinguishing it as a clonal name and not just a form.
Wrinkle the third: There is the question whether 'Flore Pleno' in its original use refers to the same clone as 'Snowbunting'.
I thought that 'Snowbunting' had hose-in-hose type petals, all petals parallel with the one they sit inside, whereas general flore pleno (lower case, no quotes) had overlapping petals where they double. I don't know whether 'Flore Pleno' actually exists as a clone, and which flower shape it follows.
The RHS Plantfinder lists both Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum 'Flore Pleno' and Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum 'Snowbunting'. Given that the Plantfinder takes considerable care about nomenclature, this suggests that somebody somewhere concluded that there are two (or more?) double-flowerd clones of T. grandiflorum. This does not mean that two clones haven't become confused in commerce.
The Plantfinder does take care, (although it is not without mistakes) so yes, there must be two registered clonal names. However, The Plantfinder doesn't check nursery stock to see whether they match the names they are using.
Where are the men in white coats when we need them?
Don't know about white coats, but I am sure that the men in a white van are on their way. ::)
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My understanding of 'Snowbunting' is, like yours Diane, that each layer sits on top of the under layer, neatly matching the shape below, in which case Gote's doesn't qualify.
I have two slightly different forms now and both are labelled (by my choice) simply as Trillium grandiflorum, double form. Thus I lose no sleep.
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Where are the men in white coats when we need them?
Don't know about white coats, but I am sure that the men in a white van are on their way. ::)
Busted again!
Incidentally, following on the description of 'Snowbunting' as hose-in-hose (after a fashion), I can say that it looks much like the double T. g. that Fred Case illustrates on the left-hand side of the relevant page in his book. Narcissus eystettensis, Queen Anne's Double Jonquil, is a double in the same fashion..
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I searched the Trillium-L archive (http://botu07.bio.uu.nl/Trillium-L/) and found this 2004 post from Carl Denton.
"The cultivar name 'Snow Bunting' for Trillium grandiflorum was first registered
when it was awarded an Award of Merit at Chelsea Show in 1966. It had been
grown by Major and Mrs Knox Finlay of Keillour, Perthshire, Scotland.
Any T. grandiflorum to carry that cultivar name 'Snow Bunting' should be a
vegetative offset from that one plant.
It is likely that the Knox Finlay's obtained their double T. grandiflorum
from Dr Henry Teuscher of Montreal Botanic Gardens in the 1950's which had
no cultivar name but was just called 'flore plenum'.
Although 'Snow Bunting' and flore plenum may be from the same stock
(probably going back to 1924 and James L Smith postmaster at Erin) then the
only ones which can be given the cultivar name are those which can
demonstrate a direct vegetative link with Knox Finlay's 'Snow Bunting'.
I would be very grateful if anyone could demonstrate this direct link
between the present so called 'Snow Bunting's and the original. I feel that
the name 'Snow Bunting' has been resurrected as a marketting ploy, it sounds
so much better than flore plenum."
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Can someone give me a name for this trillum please.
Angie :)
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"Angie's delight" would fit. ;D, but probably Trillium chloropetalum.
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Thanks Anthony I wish I had kept a note of all my plant names. I do write down my new plants in a book and where l planted them, the only bad thing about this is I keep losing my book.
I keep telling everyone how hopeless l am and its true.
Angie :)
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"Any T. grandiflorum to carry that cultivar name 'Snow Bunting' should be a vegetative offset from that one plant."
I'm pretty sure that if you have a family of individual specimens of plants, all grown by vegetative means, and you give a cultivar name to one in the Nth generation, that name applies to all members of the family, including aunts, uncles, grandparents to the Nth, and cousins in variety.
The point being that all these specimens, new and old, have the same DNA. They are identical. I suppose if the first 'Snow Bunting' were a mutation and the first of its kind, then in that case the cultivar name would indeed apply only to the later generations.
Remember the point is to name a group of plants that are, for horticultural purposes, identical.
Indeed, we see this from time to time when a rare white-flowered, double-flowered, scented, variegated whatsit is assigned a cultivar name such as 'Glory of Tibet', but later it turns out that the originator wants her husband's name used, and so all those Glories of Tibet become Joe Bloggses.
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"Angie's delight" would fit. ;D, but probably Trillium chloropetalum.
It probably is. Since this is the gemus Trillium and the petals have no chlore-colour it must be chloropetalum. Just as erectum does not have erect flowers. ;D
Cheers
Göte.
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I would be very interested to see which one of you who can find the correct citation from the 'Cultivated Plant Code.'
Art. 2.3 2009 seems to state that "A cultivar is an assemblage of plants that (a) has been selected for a particular character or combination of characters, (b) is distinct, uniform and stable in those characters, and (c) when propagated by appropriate means, retains those characters".
I think that the important point is whether the present day snowbunting is identical to the one named and given an AM. Is there a picture from that occasion? and can anyone find it?
Cheers
Göte
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Two more Trilliums
The sessile is a seedling that appeared where i used to have sessile but moved to another place. (sorry for the fuzzy image)
Catesbaeii is charming but tender species. A hard winter may set it back so it does not appear above ground for a year or two. It just started flowering again.
Only vasyeii left now - still in bud
Cheers
Göte
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Göte, I've never experienced any winter hardiness issues with Trillium catesbaei... I could not characterize it as a tender species, at least as it grows in my garden.
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I do not know whether this could be a matter of provenience - I do not know from where my plant originally comes . However, the late Karl Zita wo was a great grower of Trilliums was surprised that I could grow it at all. His garde was 1-2 zones warmer than mine. What I do know is that mine is cute but problematic.
Cheers
Göte
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Nothing exciting, but I received this as Trillium erectum "Burgundy" about 8 years ago and is now a nice clump... The other shot shows T. erectum, grandiflorum, Uvularia grandiflora and Pulsatilla spp.
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That's doing well, Stephen.
I do like Trillium ....All are nearly over here, so the Northern contribution is most welcome!
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Nothing exciting, he says but I think a healthy clump of that size, in flower, is VERY exciting. Thanks for showing it Stephen. NZ's Trillium Group will be 10 years old next year. Some celebrations are planned, I believe. :D
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I totally agree Lesley. 8)
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Thanks, I am of course excited by it ;) I don't know if it's just my memory, but the clump seems particularly floriferous this spring (after the hard winter). It's growing on very sandy soil and has never been fertilised.
Now, what's for dinner....anyone for Trilliumopita (Trillium spinach pie)?
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Thanks for all the hate mail - I was only joking. I wasn't really going to eat it...:o
I had some help herein with another Trillium some time ago received as T. catesbyi, but identified as probably T. erectum album. This one is also excelling itself this year:
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Dessert? ;D
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I had some help herein with another Trillium some time ago received as T. catesbyi, but identified as probably T. erectum album. This one is also excelling itself this year:
To me it looks rather close to the southern variant of flexipes but I think that the naming of these is somewhat arbitrary. There has been too many splitters working in this genus. Why do I prefer to call it flexipes?
Flowers are bell-shaped. There seems to be a clear knick in the pedicel behind the flower. The petals are not as narrow and separated as typical erectum but not as wide and overlapping as in sulcatum. I assume that a close look will reveal that the petals are fairly thick compared with some species. I do not think that the colur of the ovary is diagnostic. I have a batch of seedlings from a similar plat where all colours from white to dark maroon are present. Strangely enough they also all had drooping pedicels.
I hope I have added to the confusion ;D ;D ;D
Göte
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Lovely pics folks.
One of the advantages of working in the horticultural trade is that i'm often asked to 'biff' unwanted plants .
Such was the case recently when i had to remove a very large tatty looking Rhododendron which had a large Trillium clump growing against it --i counted over 90 eyes :o.
When i pointed out to my client i might damage the the Trillium she replied well it is too big anyway so you can reduce that by half.
The following pics show a small sample of the Trillium pieces i brought home .Unfortunately a number had separated and i eventually potted up 37 divisions.
I'm pretty sure they are a Western sps and it will be interesting in the spring to see what colour they are and how well they cope from being disturbed so late in the season.
Cheers Dave
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I didn't have room for all the new pots so that was the motivation to make a small new Trillium bed to free up space in the Trillium shadehouse. :)
Thus i picked out 10 good sized plants that had roots protruding from the bottom of their pots.
The area i chose to revamp was where a Hosta grew as a focal point along a path.It annoys me at this time of the year when you can view the dead grass caused by the shading effect of the leaves.
While the last pic is entitled 'finished' i've just decided i can squeeze in a number of Erythronium seedlings...... ::)
Cheers Dave.
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To me it looks rather close to the southern variant of flexipes but I think that the naming of these is somewhat arbitrary. There has been too many splitters working in this genus. Why do I prefer to call it flexipes?
Flowers are bell-shaped. There seems to be a clear knick in the pedicel behind the flower. The petals are not as narrow and separated as typical erectum but not as wide and overlapping as in sulcatum. I assume that a close look will reveal that the petals are fairly thick compared with some species. I do not think that the colur of the ovary is diagnostic. I have a batch of seedlings from a similar plat where all colours from white to dark maroon are present. Strangely enough they also all had drooping pedicels.
I hope I have added to the confusion ;D ;D ;D
Göte
Thanks for this! :D My thickness perceptionary organ couldn't really detect a difference between this species and erectum. Below a flower close-up and a photo of the nick..
Another one flowering I got as Trillium erectum "Pale Yellow Form" and I now see from comments above that this isn't erectum (petals too broad). So, what is this one's real identity?
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Hello Stephan
I bought this one as Trillium beige
but I can't confirm a correct name
Roland
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Those who have studied the erectum/simile/flexipes/sulcatum/vasyeii complex in the field report that there are all kinds of intermediate forms. Also that some species blend seamlessly from one location to another. The whole concept of species seems to float in this case.
The petals of the southern form of flexipes may not be actually thicker than those of other species but they give a visual impression of substance.
This property, however, may vary with age of the plant. The one I posted as possibly simile with flattish flowers had less substance to the flowers in the first years.
Cheers
Göte
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One of the latest: Vaseyii. The petals and sepals are much more narrow than in postings by others. These flowers are very distinct.
Göte
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Lovely though, and very dark.
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Here is a question for Trillium growers. What conditions do you use to grow T. recurvatum? Trilliums do very well outside for me but this one has sulked for 8 years. Its still there and the corm elongates slowly. T. undulatum purchased at the same time grows and flowers well. I have moved T. recurvatum twice hoping to find a spot it likes, no luck. The soil is full of compost and nice and moist, the site is shady. My backup plan is to have several pots of seedlings.
Comments please.
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I know that John Humphries from Hampshire, long ago in the old Forum, told us that he grew it on a hummock to improve drainage and had added some lime. I got the impression it wasn't exactly romping away for him either..... :-\
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Here is a question for Trillium growers. What conditions do you use to grow T. recurvatum? Trilliums do very well outside for me but this one has sulked for 8 years. Its still there and the corm elongates slowly. T. undulatum purchased at the same time grows and flowers well. I have moved T. recurvatum twice hoping to find a spot it likes, no luck. The soil is full of compost and nice and moist, the site is shady. My backup plan is to have several pots of seedlings.
Comments please.
I don't do anything special for mine, they grow where many of my Trillium grow, on a fairly steep slope under a Magnolia 'Forrest Pink' tree. They get some direct sun initially until the after the tree finishes flowering, and begins leafing out. The soil is our usual rocky-silty-clay soil, on the acidic side, that's been amended with decomposed pine back mulch. Shown is a photo from 2005 taken with a flash, although previously in this Trillium 2010 thread I've shown this species. Because of the slope, the soil tends to be on the dry side... I would not characterize the location as "nice and moist"... maybe try a drier site.
I was recently given several plants each of a different looking form with smaller more oval leaves (in both mottled-leaf and plain green-leaf forms), which was growing in rich humusy soil in good light (some sun) in a flat raised bed.
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Trillium recurvatum grows for me in a north facing raised bed below a retaining wall. The soil is sandy loam with a lot of leaf mould. Iris cristatas, anemonellas, Uvularias, Erethroniums all grow well alongside it and I occasionly water a little if there is a long dry spell. I have perhaps 40 - 45 inches of rain per year, I planted it out 3 years ago, I will try to post a picture tomorrow
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Hello Brian
My T. recurvatum in the garden performed like yours until i added lime --although it is never going to be a 'romper' here either. :'(
Coincidentially i received the latest NZ Trillium Group Newsletter ,(and 2010 seedlist), this last week .In it was an article listing which Trilliums liked lime and which didn't.
Cheers Dave.
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Hello Dave
Can you tell us which Trilliums are "Lime liker's" and which not
Roland
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Thanks folks, something to think about.
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[quote author=t00lie link=topic=5186.msg156022#msg156022 date=1276220
Coincidentially i received the latest NZ Trillium Group Newsletter ,(and 2010 seedlist), this last week .In it was an article listing which Trilliums liked lime and which didn't.
Cheers Dave.
[/quote]
Hello Dave
Can you tell us which Trilliums are "Lime liker's" and which not
Roland
Hello Roland
Part of the NZTG article is copied below--------
" West Coast Trilliums that do not like lime
T. albidum ---T.angustipetalum---T. chloropetalum---T.kurabayshii---T.parviflorum ---T.rivale.
==========================================================================
Those on this coast that will tolerate lime
T.ovatum ---T.ovatum var maculosum---T.hibbersonii.
==========================================================================
East Coast Trilliums that like lime
T.cuneatum---T. decipiens (a little)---T. decumbens---T. flexipes---T.grandiflorums (plenty)---T.luteum---T.maculatum---T.nivale (plenty)---T. recurvatum ---T. sessile---T.stamineum---T.viride.
===========================================================================
Those on this coast that dislike lime
T.catesbaei---T.discolor---T. erectum.
Those not mentioned or when in doubt ,don't use lime ".
===========================================================================
My only experiences of liming were, as i mentioned above in my previous posting in respect of T. recurvatum --and also limestone chips ,old mortar for a trough of T.nivale .
As an aside-- i heavily mulch all my trillium beds every second season with pine needles--in between years i throw on all my used/old potting mix of peat/bark which i presume still has traces of the previously added dolomite lime.
Interestingly there has been some comment earlier that maybe fertilizing T. hibbersonii may cause it's demise --although i have lost it in the garden proper :'( my current plant is growing well in a pot of peat/bark, with added dolomite lime, osmocote, nitro blue and ........
I have a good friend ,(ex farmers wife) ,who feeds some of her T.s by using pelleted sheep manure .I have started to do this as well as although i like to think i can grow T.'s reasonably well :) her plants have that 'x' factor. 8)
Cheers dave.
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Thank you Dave
Good to keep this information on a secure place
Funny to get information from a country
who does not have native bulbs
but has his own Trillium group
Roland
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Good to keep this information on a secure place
Funny to get information from a country
who does not have native bulbs
but has his own Trillium group
It's my impression that the NZ Trillium Group is a very vibrant bunch of folks... who all seem to have really great Trillium collections.... I remember seeing photos from many of these on the Forum and I know , for instance, that our friend Bronwyn McCone is passionate about these plants and has got fabulous clumps of healthy trilliums. 8)
t00lie, many thanks to you and to the NZTG for the sharing of info from the bulletin. 8)
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The Trilium Group is indeed very vibrant and provides a lot of information which we would otherwise not have seen. Some members have amazing collections and gardens while some, like me, worship from afar, with many fewer plants but we all seem to grow them well. They just like the NZ climate apparently, especially the South Island. We're not complaining.
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Hello Dave
I don't know if it is allowed but if you see
interesting articles maybe you can copy
them here so they don't get lost
as so much good information is already lost
especially from old nursery man
they know it but don't write it down
if they stop or die all the information is lost
Roland
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I'll do my best Roland :)
Even better may i suggest to you and any others who are interested ,that the NZ Trillium Group is always on the look out for new members local and overseas--at $20 NZ for overseas folk the subscriptions are a bargain and besides receiving the regular newsletters you will have access to the extensive seed list.
There is also an annual get together in the South Island .
The current contact is Joy Leonard and her email details are------ pejoleonard@hotmail.com
Cheers dave.
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I have all respect for the NZ growers of Trillium but I question the statement that Trilium grandiflorum likes lime a lot.
One has to take all information about things like lime preferences cum grano salis.
I grow very sucessfully:
Trilliums grandiflorum, luteum, sessile They clump up and sow themselves. (see previous postings)
I grow with success = can keep them alive:
recurvatum and stamineum.
My pH is low. My Rhododendrons grow well and I can even grow Trillium undulatum which is presumed to be killed by high pH..
What is the explanation? I do not know but there are some possibilities:
#1: I do not lack the element Calcium since I use bonemeal as fertilizer. This is to a great extent Calcium Phosphate. There are areas in the world where there is a deficiency in calcium in the soil.
#2: Many plants grow in narrow niches in the wild – not because they need (or even prefer) the circumstances in that niche. They may have an edge over the competition there. Example: Hepatica nobilis which grows wild in very shady places and will be swamped by grasses if there is more light will grow much better in a lighter position in a garden situation where competition is kept at bay.
Observations from the wild are thus not necessarily true for gardening circumstances.
#3: Limestone areas seem to have a more congenial habitat to some woodlanders for other reasons such as soil structure.
Cheers
Göte
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You are so right Roland, about information and best of all, experience, being lost forever, when the older gardeners die away, as we all must, in time. Unless those same people have taken to book writing in their old age, so many of the invaluable lessons they've learned over a lifetime have to be learned all over again by the younger generation who are not always anxious to walk the long paths to knowledge and experience and frequently want it all handed to them on a plate. (You can see I'm rapidly reaching that declining time myself. ;D)
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I have all respect for the NZ growers of Trillium but I question the statement that Trilium grandiflorum likes lime a lot.
One has to take all information about things like lime preferences cum grano salis.
I grow very sucessfully:
Trilliums grandiflorum, luteum, sessile They clump up and sow themselves. (see previous postings)
I grow with success = can keep them alive:
recurvatum and stamineum.
My pH is low. My Rhododendrons grow well and I can even grow Trillium undulatum which is presumed to be killed by high pH..
What is the explanation? I do not know but there are some possibilities:
#1: I do not lack the element Calcium since I use bonemeal as fertilizer. This is to a great extent Calcium Phosphate. There are areas in the world where there is a deficiency in calcium in the soil.
#2: Many plants grow in narrow niches in the wild – not because they need (or even prefer) the circumstances in that niche. They may have an edge over the competition there. Example: Hepatica nobilis which grows wild in very shady places and will be swamped by grasses if there is more light will grow much better in a lighter position in a garden situation where competition is kept at bay.
Observations from the wild are thus not necessarily true for gardening circumstances.
#3: Limestone areas seem to have a more congenial habitat to some woodlanders for other reasons such as soil structure.
Cheers
Göte
I understand there is a big difference between calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate where the magnesium is the "acid" plants are supposed to grow. My sister is growing Trillium grandiflorum on calcium carbonate where she dug leafmould into part of her limestone gravel driveway - perhaps T grandiflorum is not so fussy about PH ?
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Down here spring is advancing --a number of the early Trilliums are well above the ground and in the loose whorl stage where you can see down the stem through the leaves to gain an idea of whether individual plants have a flowering bud ---however 'one' plant is very much further on .
First couple of pics are of 'the' plant ----top --followed by side view.
Thinking i had 2 plants close together i scraped away the soil with a view to maybe moving one of them.
However pic 3 shows both stems are coming from the one rhizome. ::)
Pics 4 & 5 ---Individual shots of the respective stems.
A different colour on each stem from the one Trillium plant is something i've never come across before.............
(I've posted this on the NARGS Forum for comment as well).
Cheers Dave.
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Down here spring is advancing --a number of the early Trilliums are well above the ground and in the loose whorl stage where you can see down the stem through the leaves to gain an idea of whether individual plants have a flowering bud ---however 'one' plant is very much further on .
First couple of pics are of 'the' plant ----top --followed by side view.
Thinking i had 2 plants close together i scraped away the soil with a view to maybe moving one of them.
However pic 3 shows both stems are coming from the one rhizome. ::)
Pics 4 & 5 ---Individual shots of the respective stems.
A different colour on each stem from the one Trillium plant is something i've never come across before.............
(I've posted this on the NARGS Forum for comment as well).
Cheers Dave.
Thatis an interesting phenomenon. I have never seen anything like it. If I may speculate: The colour develops relatively late in the development of the flower. Perhaps something was disturbing the light one during that process? Or it could be a mutation in that particular bud. In that case some of the seedlings would carry over the trait. I hope you get seeds - and that they germinate - and that we remenber this when the first flowers develop. ;D
Cheers
Göte
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Outstanding Dave, beautiful photo and plant.
Please can I have one in Yellow and Black? ;)
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Outstanding Dave, beautiful photo and plant.
Please can I have one in Yellow and Black? ;)
Hello Doug
Thanks for your comments --Your name is at the top of the list bud ! ;)
[/quote]
Thatis an interesting phenomenon. I have never seen anything like it. If I may speculate: The colour develops relatively late in the development of the flower. Perhaps something was disturbing the light one during that process? Or it could be a mutation in that particular bud. In that case some of the seedlings would carry over the trait. I hope you get seeds - and that they germinate - and that we remenber this when the first flowers develop. ;D
Cheers
Göte
[/quote]
Gote
I wonder if the possible mutation you mention has some connection to this 'sick albino budgie' that was growing in close proximity (within a metre),last year .
Cheers Dave
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Close up.
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That's quite disgusting Dave but I bet someone would pay a fortune for it. :o
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That's quite disgusting Dave but I bet someone would pay a fortune for it. :o
Disgusting? :P
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Oh dear, here we go again but Dave knows me very well and will reply in kind if he thinks I'm out of order. :D
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That's quite disgusting Dave but I bet someone would pay a fortune for it. :o
I have to agree with you Lesley --not the most attractive T. i've ever grown.
Mark are you really lusting after it ? if that is the case then i'm open to all offers above a minimum of six figures of course--i'll start the ball rolling $000,001 ;D
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That's quite disgusting Dave but I bet someone would pay a fortune for it. :o
I have to agree with you Lesley --not the most attractive T. i've ever grown.
Mark are you really lusting after it ? if that is the case then i'm open to all offers above a minimum of six figures of course--i'll start the ball rolling $000,001 ;D
I'm game, I'll double it to $000,002 ;D
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You could probably stick with 1, Mark, your dollar being worth more than ours. But maybe Dave would like payment in GB pounds at present. :D
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You could probably stick with 1, Mark, your dollar being worth more than ours. But maybe Dave would like payment in GB pounds at present. :D
All contributions are most welcome Lesley --especially as i've delayed any currency conversion in the hope of a better rate and now find we are 'down' about 300 UK pounds to when i should have converted back in May .
On a brighter note .
Another early Trillium out today .
A lovely coloured T. angustipetalum Kiss -- the flowers will darken yet.
You can see it has a small deformed 4th petal which in my experience will not appear next season.
Interestingly quite a number of my T.s are 'blind' this year--no doubt still recovering from being weakened by a fungal disease of last year--i sprayed early this month with Octave just as the plants were 'moving' and thankfully there is no sign of any problem. Smiley Smiley
However in saying that ,there are still many in bud ,so hopefully i can post more pics during the next 2 weeks before our departure.
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Did my trillium seeds yesterday just would like to find out where I would keep these, are they better outside or in my polytunnel. If I looked back I probally would find the answer but away outside to do some seeds, so I am taking the lazy way.
Like I have said before I am going to try and get better with seeds ::)
Angie :)
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Gote
I wonder if the possible mutation you mention has some connection to this 'sick albino budgie' that was growing in close proximity (within a metre),last year .
Cheers Dave
Dave,
It looks very sick to me. It can of course be a mutation (which would not carry over to its eighbour) but more likely seems some chemical problem with the soil or some disease.
If It were mine I would dig it, clean it, treat it with a fungicide and replant it in a different location.
If it still looks the same I would think about giving it a name and selling it dearly.
Cheers
Göte
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A different colour on each stem from the one Trillium plant is something i've never come across before.............
Here is what I posted on Trillium-L in 2003:
I spent a few hours today buying trilliums at Thimble Farms. Richard
Fraser showed me a Purple Heart rivale that he bought at a silent auction
at a Winter Study Weekend a couple of years ago. The donor was Ernie
O'Byrne of Northwest Nursery in Eugene, Oregon, U.S.A.
There was one piece of root. Half the flowers have dark red dots filling
most of the flower. The flowers are noticeable from a distance. The
other half of the flowers have pale pink dots.
I suggested that the buds at one end of the root had sported. Richard
said that couldn't be because last year the flowers were reversed - the
dark ones were at the opposite end from where this year's dark ones are.
So, what is happening here? Is there only so much dark red pigment
available, and so it only goes on some of the flowers? Though if that
were the case, surely the whole plant would have medium red dots. It is
not two plants, though that's what it looks like. There is still only the
one root. (I think Richard dug it up and peeked while it was dormant.)
I wrote to Ernie O'Byrne, and he had never had this happen.
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Diane,
I have noticed this happening on Trillium rivale as well, a straight line right up the centre of the petals often happens with one half spotted and the other not.
Not every year, perhaps only when I lift them?
Weird.
Susan
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Very interesting Diane and Susan.
A few more Trilliums currently in bloom
Trillium rivale large white
Trillium rivale pink.
Trillium angustipetalum
Trillium chlor Lemon.
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Did my trillium seeds yesterday just would like to find out where I would keep these, are they better outside or in my polytunnel. If I looked back I probally would find the answer but away outside to do some seeds, so I am taking the lazy way.
Like I have said before I am going to try and get better with seeds ::)
Angie :)
Angie all my pots with trillium seed are put outside in the shade and will stay there,i check them every now and then to water to keep the compost moist,that's it but there are more experienced growers here who might do something different.
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Did my trillium seeds yesterday just would like to find out where I would keep these, are they better outside or in my polytunnel. If I looked back I probally would find the answer but away outside to do some seeds, so I am taking the lazy way.
Like I have said before I am going to try and get better with seeds ::)
Angie :)
Angie all my pots with trillium seed are put outside in the shade and will stay there,i check them every now and then to water to keep the compost moist,that's it but there are more experienced growers here who might do something different.
Angie, your pots of Trillium seed are much better off outside meantime to take the weather. Once they germinate you could lift them into the tunnel if you wanted to give them a little protection.
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Yesterday I saw some small plants of T. rivale, pale pink but striped or slashed with uneven dashes of deeper red. Confidently, I said they were virused, but later wondered if this was correct. To my mind they were not attractive with the unever deeper colour but their owner said he had been selecting them over a few years as "something different." Does anyone have any thought please?
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Did my trillium seeds yesterday just would like to find out where I would keep these, are they better outside or in my polytunnel. If I looked back I probally would find the answer but away outside to do some seeds, so I am taking the lazy way.
Like I have said before I am going to try and get better with seeds ::)
Angie :)
Angie all my pots with trillium seed are put outside in the shade and will stay there,i check them every now and then to water to keep the compost moist,that's it but there are more experienced growers here who might do something different.
Angie, your pots of Trillium seed are much better off outside meantime to take the weather. Once they germinate you could lift them into the tunnel if you wanted to give them a little protection.
And don't EVER let the pots get dry. I did. No Trillium seedlings - ever. :'(
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And don't EVER let the pots get dry. I did. No Trillium seedlings - ever. :'(
That's why I sow all my Trillium seed outdoors in the garden, in prepared beds... the au naturel way, where moisture levels are more consistent than when sown in pots. With our current drought, I do sometiems water the mulched seed beds. I have high hopes for the 2500 trillium seed I have sown this year; now if only I could keep the wild turkeys from trying to nest in the area and dig crater-like depressions ::) For the time being, the situation is under control.
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Yesterday I saw some small plants of T. rivale, pale pink but striped or slashed with uneven dashes of deeper red. Confidently, I said they were virused, but later wondered if this was correct. To my mind they were not attractive with the unever deeper colour but their owner said he had been selecting them over a few years as "something different." Does anyone have any thought please?
Lesley
I'd need to see the plants you talk about to give an opinion however i have seen healthy T. rivale with splashed colouring on one half of a petal as Susan has mentioned.
Trillium angustipetalum yellow just out now.
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And don't EVER let the pots get dry. I did. No Trillium seedlings - ever. :'(
That's why I sow all my Trillium seed outdoors in the garden, in prepared beds... the au naturel way, where moisture levels are more consistent than when sown in pots. With our current drought, I do sometiems water the mulched seed beds. I have high hopes for the 2500 trillium seed I have sown this year; now if only I could keep the wild turkeys from trying to nest in the area and dig crater-like depressions ::) For the time being, the situation is under control.
It all comes down to the climate in which we garden ,i guess--not having to worry about drought i sow all my Trillium seed in pots of various sizes, even very small ones ,(see pics below of the current crop).
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It all comes down to the climate in which we garden ,i guess--not having to worry about drought i sow all my Trillium seed in pots of various sizes, even very small ones ,(see pics below of the current crop).
Dave, you have a lot of Trillium seedlings there! Your techniques obviously work well for you.
Earlier in this thread I posted photos of what I thought might be a T. vaseyi hybrid; everyone told me it wasn't a hybrid, that it was T. vaseyi. That may indeed be the case, although I'm still puzzled to have a seedling grow nearly twice as large as regular T. vaseyi, with much larger foliage; perhaps just part of the genetics? Anyway, my two stems of regular T. vaseyi had pods, one of the very few Trillium that made seed this terribly hot and dry year, and while the pods made much fewer seed than normal, I sowed them around the parent plant. Then, I've been waiting and waiting for the robust single-stem T. vaseyi to ripen its pod... the pod 2x to 3x the size of normal vaseyi, and ripening more than a month later.
On Saturday, I went to a seedling sale at a local NARGS meeting event with a friend, she saw the pod and suggested I harvest it soon, I agreed it was ready to pick and sow, but by the time I came back from the meeting a few hours later, the pod was gone, no doubt eaten by squirrels, my arch nemesis... managed to find a mere 3 seeds on the surface of the soil (which I sowed :'(), when there were perhaps 100 or more seeds in the pod... &%$#&! varmints!
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........ I've been waiting and waiting for the robust single-stem T. vaseyi to ripen its pod... the pod 2x to 3x the size of normal vaseyi, and ripening more than a month later.
On Saturday, I went to a seedling sale at a local NARGS meeting event with a friend, she saw the pod and suggested I harvest it soon, I agreed it was ready to pick and sow, but by the time I came back from the meeting a few hours later, the pod was gone, no doubt eaten by squirrels, my arch nemesis... managed to find a mere 3 seeds on the surface of the soil (which I sowed :'(), when there were perhaps 100 or more seeds in the pod... &%$#&! varmints!
Don't you just HATE it when that happens? :'( >:(
We already have a variation on the "see a pin....." saying.... "see a weed and pull it up, all day long you'll have good luck"...... we really should have another pithy saying for seed collection........... :-\
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We already have a variation on the "see a pin....." saying.... "see a weed and pull it up, all day long you'll have good luck"...... we really should have another pithy saying for seed collection........... :-\
"A seed in the pot is worth 2 in the pod"?
"A seedpod left too long will be a squirrel's supper"? ;D
cheers
fermi
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"A seed in the pot is worth 2 in the pod"?
Liking that one, fermi!
"A seedpod left too long will be a squirrel's supper"?
Very true.... but how about "a seedpod left too long soon will be long gone" ;D
Maybe the volunteers for the Seed Exchange should be getting T-shirts made with these mottos!
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Friends, I've just received this phot for a Triilium ID :
The message was "The label is lost and the bed in question has both T. albidum and T.chloropetalum in it.
My guess is that this is a white form of chloropetalum, but I could be persuaded that it was albidum
What do you think?"
My powers of Trillium ID are weak to say the least.... so can you Forumists help identify this undoubtedly beautiful form?
[attach=1]
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Maggi, a lovely trillium whatever it is. Is the pink hue accurate flower color or caused by the photograph or lighting?
I almost forgot to post photos of this unusual Trillium cultivar, a double to triple leaf form, T. cuneatum 'Julia'. Apparently it is unusual for double leaf forms, in that it is a fast propagator, spreading into beautiful clumps. The flowering stems are typically double-leaved, whereas some of the younger non-flowering stems are sometimes triple-leaved. I'm very please to have received a couple nice offsets this year.
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Is the pink hue accurate flower color or caused by the photograph or lighting?
I think the pink appearance is caused by the reflection of the deep colour in the throat, McMark.
'Julia' is delightful- I have never seen such a thing - the effect of the "extra" foliage when seen in a clump is most attractive.
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Maggi, a lovely trillium whatever it is. Is the pink hue accurate flower color or caused by the photograph or lighting?
I almost forgot to post photos of this unusual Trillium cultivar, a double to triple leaf form, T. cuneatum 'Julia'. Apparently it is unusual for double leaf forms, in that it is a fast propagator, spreading into beautiful clumps. The flowering stems are typically double-leaved, whereas some of the younger non-flowering stems are sometimes triple-leaved. I'm very please to have received a couple nice offsets this year.
Mark thats a belter of a plant.It makes such a pleasing clump.
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Maggi, your mystery plant looks similar to this one of mine. It came from seed as T. albidum, but the donor of the seeds when shown the plant said he thought it had hybridised with chloropetalum. I think it is a beautiful flower, and is nicely scented of roses, but does not set seed, which supports the hypothesis that it is a hybrid.
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Yes , Anne, I see the similarities. I do think that it likely is a hybrid - I don't know whether it sets seeds for the grower.
I do love such trillium.... especially for their scent.
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Some beautiful stuff above guys, I'm dribbling!
Two nice T. chloropetalum out now.
First two flowers on a batch of 5 year old T.chloropetalum seedlings. Look forward to next year.
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Friends, I've just received this phot for a Triilium ID :
The message was "The label is lost and the bed in question has both T. albidum and T.chloropetalum in it.
My guess is that this is a white form of chloropetalum, but I could be persuaded that it was albidum
What do you think?"
My powers of Trillium ID are weak to say the least.... so can you Forumists help identify this undoubtedly beautiful form?
Hi Maggi,
It is most probably a hybrid between the two mentioned species (albidum x chloropetalum).
Cheers,
John
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Thanks, Anne and John :)
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Thanks, Anne and John :)
No problem Maggi, but.......
With Western sessiles you'll never know. Hybrids, intermediates, etc are very common also in the wild, making a proper determination very difficult. If I look at the ovary, it has a lot of chloropetalum characteristics (dark and purple). Albidum's ovary is more a greenish or pinkish white, but no dark pigmentation. So it could be chloropetalum after all. Maybe it is better not to try to determine these garden specimens and only enjoy their beauty. You might get puzzled :-\
Cheers,
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John, I spend half my life in a state of puzzlement over plant indentifications.... as you so rightly say, there is a wealth of natural variation to be condsidered, even before any possible hybridity is taken into the reckoning. :-X
Frankly I doubt that anyone can be categorial about ID in most cases.... no matter what the plants. ::) ;D
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Frankly I doubt that anyone can be categorial about ID in most cases.... no matter what the plants. ::) ;D
So true!
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That's a lovely rose pink chloropetalum, Doug.
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Thanks Annew, I love it too, Ive just pollinated those two plants together as they both have considerably large flowers, 5-6 years time we will see what becomes! Although I think I'm going to have to buy more land with all the Trillium seed Ive already planted this year!
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Frankly I doubt that anyone can be categorial about ID in most cases.... no matter what the plants. ::) ;D
There is only one case when one is certain and that is the type specimen - which nearly always is in a herbarium. ;D ;D
However the type of Metasequioia glyptostroboides still lives on as a clone - or did some years ago at least.
Cheers
Göte
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Ah, Metasequoia glyptostroboides. One of my most favourite plant names. A lovely tree too of course.
A prominent NZ botanist once told me that while a gardener will frequently say "that plant is....." a botanist will ALWAYS say "well it could be... or possibly it is...."
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A number of the 'later' Trilliums are still in bloom.
Cheers dave
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Very nice, Dave. I love 7203 and 7214 especially.
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Thanks Wim
7214 is one of my seedlings .
7203 is a division i made earlier this year and planted out .Interestingly the other 8 divisions i made at the same time that have been kept in pots are not flowering. The parent plant of 7203 is an extremely strong grower --while not as many blooms as last year ,(no doubt because of the disturbance),there are 20 flowers in the clump.
Cheers dave.
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t00lie, we're so glad that you haven't missed all your trilliums by being overseas for so long... great that some saved themselves for your return!
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7203 is a division i made earlier this year and planted out .Interestingly the other 8 divisions i made at the same time that have been kept in pots are not flowering. The parent plant of 7203 is an extremely strong grower --while not as many blooms as last year ,(no doubt because of the disturbance),there are 20 flowers in the clump.
So, he wants to be free. ;) Do trilliums normally dislike root restriction?
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Welcome home Dave. I bet you had a fabulous time, but there's nothing like sleeping in your own bed again. Back to the weeding now?
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t00lie, we're so glad that you haven't missed all your trilliums by being overseas for so long... great that some saved themselves for your return!
Hello Maggs
A lot of the chloros were damaged from the heavy snow that fell just after we left NZ in mid sept.Most of the Eastern sps that came up later were unaffected. :)
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So, he wants to be free. ;) Do trilliums normally dislike root restriction?
Probably Wim --while i can flower plants in one litre pots, generally there are adventurous roots that have made their way out of the bottom into the sand/bark mulch.
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Welcome home Dave. I bet you had a fabulous time, but there's nothing like sleeping in your own bed again. Back to the weeding now?
Yip pleased to be home --i don't suffer from jetlag so was able to spend the whole day ,following our return, in the garden althought that wasn't a chore as i had heavily mulched all the beds with pine needles previously.
Very few losses during our absence--a small number of seedling Frit /Arisaema pots--however that will only make way for the 300 odd packets i sent back home from the UK ,that are sitting on the bench ,(yes i've counted them ::) and know i went a bit overboard). :-[ :-[ :-[
Cheers dave.
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Some beauties there, Dave. I'll have one of each thanks. ;D ;D What a wonderful range of colours you have. :o
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I came across a page on John Lonsdale's Edgewood Gardens web site that I hadn't seen before, devoted to pictures of Trillium seed. Check out the beds of Trillium seedlings :o And look at all that T. nivale washed and ready to be separated :o :o
http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/Plants_album/The%20Plants%20-%20Propagation%20and%20Cultivation/Trillium/index.html
And then, lots more propagation pics on Cyclamen & Iris:
http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/Plants_album/The%20Plants%20-%20Propagation%20and%20Cultivation/index.html
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Mark, how could you NOT have seen John's site before? It's one of the most famous garden sites in all the world and very frequently given as a link reference for so many plant pictures. I love it myself and dip in quite frequently, but there's so much of it that it's almost impossible to know all of what's there. It is often updated too with more pics added so always something fresh and thrilling to see.
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Mark, how could you NOT have seen John's site before? It's one of the most famous garden sites in all the world and very frequently given as a link reference for so many plant pictures. I love it myself and dip in quite frequently, but there's so much of it that it's almost impossible to know all of what's there. It is often updated too with more pics added so always something fresh and thrilling to see.
Lesley, you must have only glanced over my first sentence, I was talking about a newer page that I hadn't seen before. John and I are friends, I have visited with him, he has a remarkable garden, and I have frequently perused his photo galleries over the years.
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So sorry Mark, yes, I did a quick eyes over and didn't really absorb what I was seeing. Something exciting happened this morning so my mind isn't really on things. More about that laster.