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General Subjects => Travel / Places to Visit => Topic started by: arillady on February 27, 2010, 03:06:50 AM

Title: Cemetery plants
Post by: arillady on February 27, 2010, 03:06:50 AM
I am interested to see plants in cemeteries around the world - anyone have photos??
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: TheOnionMan on February 27, 2010, 03:49:24 AM
Hello Pat,  

A fairly broad topic; are there specific aspects of this topic that you are focusing on?  In the USA at least, I will defer to Mt. Auburn Cemetery, one of the first large scale cemetaries in the USA to become not only a cemetery but a rich arboretum rivalling many in the country, in this case, with connections and proximity to Arnold Arboretum of Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.
http://www.mountauburn.org/

While focusing on rare and unusual trees and shrubs, there are also perennials, groundcovers, annuals, and bulb plantings as well.  My workplace of some 20+ years until I recently became laid-off, was within a couple miles of this wondrous place, but I still venture back to revisit the extraordinary mature specimens found there.  The grounds also serve as a laboratory pushing the understanding of hardiness in our USDA Zone 5 climate, with lots of surprises.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: arillady on February 27, 2010, 04:21:10 AM
Thanks Mark.
I started looking in cemeteries for old roses originally but in Australia you find lots of old daffodils, irises, scillas, watsonias, gladiolus, Madonna lilies, etc and a few old trees - those that have not been removed.
In France in 2002 I visited many cemeteries with Nigel Service to find old roses and old irises - plus I visited Pere Lachaise, Toulouse, Pithiviers,Glasnevin (not all as it was a drizzly early evening and I was not comfortable wandering on my own and I did wonder if the hugest :o chain was used at night on the gate - didn't think I would be able to scale the 15' plus stone walls or the spiked fence), Brookwood (London) cemeteries.
And the cemeteries in the USA: Sacramento Pioneer, Salem, Portland (Lone Fir), San Juan Bautista, Easton Cemetery, a couple of New Orleans cemeteries (before it was inundated). Plus some of the Gold Country cemeteries and Texas cemeteries. 
There is often remnant native vegetation if it is not a scorched earth policy as in some.
Scilla peruviana can certainly take over in time in some cemeteries here in Australia as do some of the gallica roses on their own roots.
I have a photo somewhere of a cemetery with blue irises in India.
I found the Sangerhausen Friedhof fascinating as there were plenty of plants which would be killed off once the snow came.
So after that long ramble I am interested in mainly the older varieties of bulbs, etc. Trees have been overlooked or should I say underlooked sorry to say.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Ed Alverson on March 02, 2010, 06:26:53 PM
Rochester Cemetery, in Cedar County, Iowa, is one of the botanical wonders of the world.  Most of Iowa was prairie or savanna when the first white settlers arrived in the early 1800's, but nearly all of it has been converted to agriculture and people these days think of Iowa as nothing but miles of corn (maize) and soybean fields.  Rochester is a pioneer cemetery that has never been plowed, and as a result it hosts an amazing diversity of prairie and savanna wildflowers.  Though only 14 acres in size, and disturbed in places because it is an actively used cemetery, it is home to nearly 300 native plant species.  It is particularly known for its display of Dodecatheon in early May.  I visited lat year in late May, when the Dodecatheon was past its peak but many other flowers were coming on.  There is a continuous succession of native wildflowers blooming from spring till fall.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Ed Alverson on March 02, 2010, 06:38:21 PM
Here are some of the wildflowers that were blooming during my visit last May:

Dodecatheon meadia
Aquliegia canadensis
Geranium maculatum
Phlox and Osmorhiza

I should note that on this sunny spring day, the cemetery smelled like a mountain meadow, with all of the different wildflowers in abundant bloom, unlike most of the rest of Iowa, which smells like agricultural chemicals and livestock.

By the way, Rochester Cemetery is located just off Interstate 80 so it is easily accessible to anyone driving west from Chicago toward Des Moines.

Ed
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: ashley on March 02, 2010, 09:00:29 PM
Those are magnificent Ed.  Thank you for bringing us there.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Ed Alverson on March 02, 2010, 09:47:21 PM
Along the same theme, here is a set of photos from a local historic cemetery, Eugene's Masonic Cemetery, which is managed in part for its native wildflowers (see http://www.eugenemasoniccemetery.org/mowing.html).  It is  located within an older neighborhood in Eugene, and is the final resting place for may prominent early citizens of Eugene.  The cemetery supports about 100 species of native plants.  One part of the cemetery has a small camas prairie, and elsewhere there are a variety of savanna and woodland plants, including:

Camassia quamash
Saxifraga oregana
Tellima grandiflora with Trillium albidum
Thalictrum occidentale
Erythronium oregonum
Fritillaria affinis

Ed
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: arillady on March 03, 2010, 08:36:05 AM
Ed what a wonderful set of photos. I did visit Eugene Masonic on my 2002 trip with Mirra Myer. I do have Part 2 of 2 Eugene Masonic Cemetery Landscape Management Plan which details the different areas of the cemetery and how each are managed. So wonderful to see that all the native plants have been kept at the same time that burials are made so that they are not too intrusive on the landscape.
So different to most cemeteries that you come across.
Rochester Cemetery seems like another wild cemetery - these are the ones I really like.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Ragged Robin on March 03, 2010, 10:45:14 AM
Wonderful photos evoking an atmosphere of peace and tranquility, my idea of heaven - thanks Ed

Some of the English graveyards left to go wild are wonderful too, Pat, and the old trees give a sense of timelessness.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: TheOnionMan on March 03, 2010, 02:00:47 PM
ED, both examples are fascinating, but I particularly like the camas prairie :o  Do either of these institutions promote the native flora with tours or outdoor classroom events?  Both seem rich in species count and present themselves as unique educational opportunities.  

Back to the example I cited, Mt. Auburn Cemetery, since it is really a green oasis among an urban setting, there is not much in the way of representing native flora except those that have been planted (which is extensive), almost all trees and shrubs are labeled (usually with the year of planting to get an idea of the age of plants viewed), and it is an excellent classroom experience for landscape architects, garden designers, and gardeners in general, to see what mature trees and shrubs look like, many well over 100 years old.  Some of the examples are amusing, such as in the first two images I show of Taxus cuspidata 'Nana', widely planted in New England.  Having been planted in 1939, it's not so "Nana" anymore. :D

The firm I worked for the past 20 years, until recently laid off, was a couple miles away, and the head Landscape Architect would periodically schedule visits to the cemetery with groups of young Landscape Architects to learn plant materials, see what mature tree branching looked like, the intricacies of tree bark on different specues, winter buds identification, etc.  I always tagged along as the only non-Landscape Architect in the group.  Third is a stock photo of a tower at the top of a hill, which can be climbed to get a 360 degree panoramic view of Bostom, Cambridge, and suburbs.  The last photo, at the top of the tower, is one of the Landscape Architecture tour groups (I'm the one with black shirt and bluejeans).
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: cohan on March 04, 2010, 01:02:09 AM
interesting stuff--especially those 'wild' cemetaries ed showed! i don't think there is anything similar around here--mind you the cemeteries i have seen locally are very tiny things, probably an acre or so--a few nice old trees, but the ground is just all mowed..
luckily alberta was never as fully plowed as you mention iowa being (probably in certain areas here) so there is a lot of wild land in my area--how many tracts have been left untouched (vs having possibly been cleared and regrown) for that long a time is another question...
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: arillady on March 04, 2010, 08:45:34 AM
I would love to do a cemetery ramble of English Cemeteries. I have heard that some have been left to go wild but don't know which except for the Brookwood Cemetery which is wild in parts but they have problems with wild deer and rabbits eating most plants - so you see graves with plants being protected by chicken wire fences.
A few photos from Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney - Australia's best for old plants and a few natives.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Stephenb on March 05, 2010, 10:36:39 AM
Fantastic pictures all, particularly the Camassia meadows and nice to see the Osmorhiza too in a wild setting.

Let me take you to a cemetery north of the Arctic circle. I travelled last June to the Lofoten Islands on a personal onion safari to find naturalized Allium victorialis. Rumour had it that all cemeteries on the island Vestvågøy had good populations, so I did a tour of the local graveyards :). The first one was the Rise Kirkegård (the google map marks the place). As promised, there certainly was a good population of this Allium growing scattered between the graves, but mainly around trees and other unmowed areas. I found another Allium too which had been planted (Mark: could you float down here and suggest an identity?)

(Aside: the Norwegian word Kirkegård as the Scots here will have no problem with means literally Church Garden (or yard))
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: cycnich on March 09, 2010, 04:58:40 PM
Hello Pat
             Thought this might interest you. These are two old churchyards Wilmington and Folkington nestling in the south downs in Southern England about two miles apart and a pleasant dog walk between the two. Both are filled with snowdrops this time of year and the second one Wilmington has a very old Yew tree which is now supported by timber and the two main trunks are chained together.
 
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Armin on March 09, 2010, 05:09:52 PM
Pat N.,
the Yew tree is amazing! Any idea how estimated old it is?
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: cycnich on March 09, 2010, 05:17:29 PM
Quote from: Armin on March 09, 2010, 05:09:52 PM
Pat N.,
the Yew tree is amazing! Any idea how estimated old it is?

It is thought to be the oldest yew tree in England and estimated at 1600 years old.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Armin on March 09, 2010, 05:52:37 PM
Wow  :o Pat,
the oldest Yew tree I have seen is growing in the "Palmengarten" in Frankfurt am Main. Just 300+ years ...
I have a great respect of the age and old relict. 8)
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Maggi Young on March 09, 2010, 05:58:18 PM
Quote from: cycnich on March 09, 2010, 05:17:29 PM
Quote from: Armin on March 09, 2010, 05:09:52 PM
Pat N.,
the Yew tree is amazing! Any idea how estimated old it is?

It is thought to be the oldest yew tree in England and estimated at 1600 years old.
Not only the oldest but surely the largest as well? It is huge! A wonderful tree.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Gerry Webster on March 09, 2010, 06:36:16 PM
There are a number of very large, old yew trees in Sussex. By some estimates the one photographed by Pat at Wilmington is a relative youngster at 1600 years.  The largest in the county is at Coldwaltham church & this may be about 3000  years old. (see  Owen Johnson, The Sussex Tree Book, Pomegranate  Press, 1998)
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Maggi Young on March 09, 2010, 08:11:23 PM
My goodness.... yes, fascinating to look into these great old trees.... this site is useful:
http://www.ancient-yew.org/searchForm.php
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Armin on March 09, 2010, 08:49:12 PM
Maggi,
realy fascinating trees. Never thought of such giant trees in the UK. :o
I was teached all large trees were cut for shipbuilding  ???
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Maggi Young on March 09, 2010, 09:14:44 PM
[quote[ .....all large trees were cut for shipbuilding [/quote]

That would have been the case for most big old trees at one time, Armin, but Yew trees are venerated from olden times and since they are often found in ancient churchyards they would be safe there from cutting.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Gerry Webster on March 09, 2010, 09:22:17 PM
Quote from: Armin on March 09, 2010, 08:49:12 PM
Maggi,
realy fascinating trees. Never thought of such giant trees in the UK. :o
I was teached all large trees were cut for shipbuilding  ???
Armin - I think in the UK  it was mainly oaks that were cut for ship building.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Armin on March 09, 2010, 09:39:59 PM
Thanks Maggi and Gerry - never stop learning :D
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Richard Green on March 09, 2010, 10:35:55 PM
Maggi, I agree with Gerry that it was mainly Oaks rather than Yews which were used for shipbuilding.  Yews were originally venerated by Pagans, and there is a theory that early churches were placed to incorporate older Pagan worship areas.  

However many of the Yews currently visible in British churchyards are Irish Yews which are very much more recent in origin.  I think these were planted in the 1700s.  Perhaps some of our Irish correspondents could tell us?
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Armin on March 09, 2010, 10:44:06 PM
Richard,
interesting. Thanks for the background info.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: TheOnionMan on March 10, 2010, 03:44:47 AM
Quote from: Stephenb on March 05, 2010, 10:36:39 AM
I found another Allium too which had been planted (Mark: could you float down here and suggest an identity?)

(Aside: the Norwegian word Kirkegård as the Scots here will have no problem with means literally Church Garden (or yard))


Sorry Stephen, my avatar got stuck for several days as it floated around in an out-of-body experience.  It looks like the plants in that particular grave have been planted, so the Allium is likely not native, and since the Allium is not in flower yet, the possiblities of what it could be are large, to say the least, so I can't venture a guess.  But as you can see, now that I am butterfly-like, perhaps I can visit that plant in flower and get a better idea  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Maggi Young on March 10, 2010, 10:19:18 AM
Quote from: Maggi Young on March 09, 2010, 09:14:44 PM
[quote[ .....all large trees were cut for shipbuilding

That would have been the case for most big old trees at one time, Armin, but Yew trees are venerated from olden times and since they are often found in ancient churchyards they would be safe there from cutting.
[/quote]

I missed out the "oak" from the big old OAK tree part..... my point was that yews were not used for shipbuilding and that the old yews (so often by those times associated with churchyards) would not have been cut anyway because of their history and position.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: ashley on March 10, 2010, 08:03:49 PM
Quote from: Richard Green on March 09, 2010, 10:35:55 PM
However many of the Yews currently visible in British churchyards are Irish Yews which are very much more recent in origin.  I think these were planted in the 1700s.  Perhaps some of our Irish correspondents could tell us?

As none of my compatriots has responded I'll try.

Fastigiate yews now widely planted are mainly clones from a female plant found on Cuilcagh mountain, County Fermanagh around 1740.  Originally it was considered a new species, Taxus hibernica, but is now accepted as T. baccata f. fastigiata.  It began to be planted throughout Ireland and Britain in graveyards from around the mid-nineteenth century, i.e. only about 150 years ago.

However yew (Irish iúr) had an important place in the lore of pre-Christian & early Christian Ireland, including religious significance for Celts & maybe the pre-Celtic inhabitants.  In the indigeous Ogham alphabet cryptic kennings for the letter ‘I’ were ‘oldest tree’ and ‘fairest of the ancients’, generally considered to refer to yew.  In the eighth-century 'Laws of Neighbourhood' (Bretha Comaithchesa) yew was one of the 7 ‘nobles of the wood’.  Substantial fines were levied against anyone damaging these most valued species, better protection than we give them today!  Iúr appears in several placenames including Tír an Iúir, Terenure, now a suburb of Dublin, and An tIúr, Newry in County Down.

An excellent reference is ‘Trees of Ireland, native and naturalised (http://www.lilliputpress.ie/listbook.html?id=139539034)’ by E Charles Nelson (Lilliput, Dublin, 1993), with exquisite watercolour illustrations by Wendy Walsh.  Hard to find now at a reasonable price unfortunately.  

Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: David Nicholson on March 10, 2010, 08:21:48 PM
Interesting stuff Ashley, thanks for posting that and it does show why place names are often a key to the past. If the Celts were the indiginous inhabitants of Britain (and opinion on this seems to differ) then the fact that the Yew was an ancient symbol of the immortality of the soul in pagan temples, later picked up by Celtic druids and then adopted by Christians would all seem to fit together nicely.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Maggi Young on March 10, 2010, 08:33:09 PM
There is a tree in Scotland that is thought to be the oldest tree in Europe; it is a yew tree , it grows at Fortingall in Perthshire and is thought to be as old as 3000 years!  :o
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: David Nicholson on March 10, 2010, 08:41:25 PM
Aren't there some pre-historic sites in the area too, like Carn na Marbh? That would provide another link from pagan to Christian use of the Yew as a symbol.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Maggi Young on March 10, 2010, 08:51:02 PM
Yes, David.
 That ancient site was said to be the birthplace of Pontius Pilate..... it was also said that his bodyguard formed the first regiment of Scotland... the "First of Foot" as the Ist Battalion, the Royal Scots, the Royal Regiment were always known.....I never quite knew how much truth there was in that, but it's oft repeated regimental history, anyhow!

Pontius Pilate's Bodyguard: A History of the First or the Royal Regiment of Foot the Royal Scots (the Royal Regiment) by Robert Haston Paterson has the story, but I no longer have a copy.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Maggi Young on March 10, 2010, 09:03:16 PM
I've had a search among the regimental stuff and find that the nickname as Pontius Pilate's Bodyguard came from some banter between the Colonel of the Royal Scots with the French Regiment of Picardy in the 17th Century, who boasted that prior to the Resurrection Christ's tomb was guarded by the French regiment.... to which the Scot replied that if his regiment had been on guard they wouldn't have been asleep!
The Royal Scots are the oldest infantry regiment, raised in 1633 though from an even earlier band of soldiers, returning from Sweden. Interesting that their nickname should be associated with Pontius Pilate who is rumoured to have had Scottish origins !
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: David Nicholson on March 10, 2010, 09:09:36 PM
Quote from: Maggi Young on March 10, 2010, 09:03:16 PM
.............. with Pontius Pilate who is rumoured to have had Scottish origins !

Yes, I'd heard he had deep pockets and short arms :P ;D
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Gerry Webster on March 10, 2010, 09:17:17 PM
Quote from: Gerry Webster on March 09, 2010, 06:36:16 PM
There are a number of very large, old yew trees in Sussex. By some estimates the one photographed by Pat at Wilmington is a relative youngster at 1600 years.  The largest in the county is at Coldwaltham church & this may be about 3000  years old. (see  Owen Johnson, The Sussex Tree Book, Pomegranate  Press, 1998)
A Google search reveals this site on the Yew at Coldwaltham:

http://www.ancient-yew.org/fightingfortrees.shtml

The account  given here suggests  a more modest (& perhaps more plausible) estimate of age as  280 - 1000 years. Apparently the problem with estimating the age of  Yews is that most are hollow so cores cannot be taken.
Here is a picture from the website.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Armin on March 10, 2010, 10:05:03 PM
Ashley and all,

thanks for the lesson in Irish and British Yew history :D

The Coldwaltham Yew is very impressive :o

How many storms it has withstood, how many wars passed by over the time and how many loving couples under his umbrella this tree might have seen ytd?
In contrast - how short are our lifes compared to the giant tree?
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: arillady on March 17, 2010, 02:11:55 AM
Thanks Pat N and Maggi (by the way lovely photo of our Maggi) for the yew tree tales and churchyard scenes.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Maggi Young on March 17, 2010, 11:53:22 AM
Thank YOU, Pat.... on both counts!!  :-*
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Melvyn Jope on March 17, 2010, 09:16:57 PM
Quote from: arillady on March 04, 2010, 08:45:34 AM
I would love to do a cemetery ramble of English Cemeteries. I have heard that some have been left to go wild but don't know which except for the Brookwood Cemetery which is wild in parts but they have problems with wild deer and rabbits eating most plants - so you see graves with plants being protected by chicken wire fences.
Hello Pat, I have only just noticed this on Brookwood Cemetery. I was brought up in Brookwood village and spent a lot of time in the cemetery, that sounds really odd but as you know the place is so large and we just regarded it as a park and used to go for walks there and play games like hide and seek, we really never regarded it as scarey we were just so used to it. I now live about three miles from there and still visit occasionally, its a good place to see Roe Deer and birds like the Dartford Warbler and in a few places good for orchids. The photo is of one taken last May.
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: arillady on March 17, 2010, 11:29:09 PM
Yes Melvyn Brookwood C is a fabulous playground and Rookwood in Sydney is similar
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Ed Alverson on April 01, 2010, 09:49:59 PM
I happened to stop today to take a look at an old cemetery near here that I hadn't previously visited, and it turned out to have quite a nice diversity of native oak savanna wildflowers.  The second photo shows a detail of the tableau, including Ranunculus occidentalis, Erythronium oregonum, Sidalcea virgata, and Fragaria virginiana (the last two not yet in bloom).  Some nice patches of Dodecatheon hendersonii as well, and the clump of Trillium albidum growing between the gravestones of a mother and her son.  Of course there are also some non-native "weeds", including Bellis perennis, Hypochaeris radicata, and Daucus carota, but they are pretty ubiquitous around here.

Ed
Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: Kovacs Pal on April 14, 2010, 09:19:40 PM
These pictures were taken in Solda (South Tirol)

Title: Re: Cemetery plants
Post by: arillady on April 15, 2010, 10:22:21 AM
How interesting Kovacs - reminds me of the plantings on graves in Sangerhausen Germany. As the graves are very short and squat are ashes placed in them? Why pinetrees when they are likely to get enormous I wonder. It is lovely to see the amount of colour used in the plantings
Thanks for posting the photos
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