Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Alpines => Topic started by: maggiepie on February 12, 2010, 03:13:20 PM
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I have some seeds germinating at the moment and am wondering if anyone who grows this could post a pic of the flower.
I can't find much information about this one.
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Helen,
It's in Robert Nold's book 'Columbines':
45cm, Altai Mts > N.China, fragrant, lasts about 3 yrs. '...a fairly wonderful plant, and very much worth growing.'
No special requirement mentioned.
Illustration also from his (very nice) book.
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Giles, thanks for the illustration but I can't see any difference between the illustration and Aquilegia viridiflora ???
Here's a few pics of one of my A. viridiflora seedlings last year.
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There is also a cultivar going around named 'Chocolate Soldier', although don't see much of a difference in that one either, and it was short-lived for me.
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I have always found them short lived.... and they don't always set good seed here in Aberdeen ... for me, anyway... if any member living din this area does get buckets of seed and wants to give me some, that would be nice!
I suppose about three years would be their lifespan.... not very long. I do like them... the scent in a warm evening is delightful and I find the green and purple colour very pretty.
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Maggi, I suspect you are right re the "atropurpurea" suffix. It will be interesting to see if these seedlings flower this year.
Of course they might not be what they are supposed to be.
My A. viridifloras will be 3 years old this season ( if they turn up)
I didn't get any seeds last year, I had to cut the flowers off due to the wee harlequin bugs, not to mention sawfly grubs that were all over the leaves feasting.
My plants were very small, only about 6 inches high.
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I'm inclined to think that this "atropurpurea" suffix is a spurious one. These plants usually have a green and purple colouration..... perhaps someone once thought otherwise and so this naming came about.... to me it's not vaild.... particularly if the illustration is representative of the plant!
The common form in cultivation is ssp atropurpurea with the dark inner petals.
The "type" form doesn't have the brown inners, hence viridiflora. I've never seen it, I wonder whether it is rare or not in cultivation see picture here http://www.abc.se/~m8449/Wwebb/zaquilvirid1.jpg
I've been trying to find a picture of my plant without success, it was shown at Cleveland and Midland last year, but it's difficult to photograph. It is quite small, and has a fantastic scent. It's just coming into growth this year. It made lots of seed, one pot's worth kept, and the rest sent to the seed exchange.
In the pictures I have seen of 'Chocolate Soldier' it seems not to have such bright green sepals thereby showing less contrast, but I've not seen it in the flesh, so it may be identical with ssp atropurpurea, and so maybe just a marketing name by T&M.
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Diane, this has me thinking of an interesting hybridization project (and with Aquilegia, it wouldn't be too difficult ;D), and that is to get any form of A. viridiflora and cross with
A. glandulosa A. fragrans (I would need to re-obtain both at this point), the latter I once grew from a Chris Chadwell collection from the Himalayas, another Aquilegia with an intense fragrance, to start breeding for fragrance. I like the all green (type viridiflora) shown in your JPG link. As I have grown it, then purchased a plant of so-called 'Chocolate Soldier, it is always the dark atropurpurea type.
Back to A. glandulosa A. fragrans, there are tall and dwarf forms in cultivation, some more or less frangrant than others.
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Bob Brown, proprietor of Cotswold Garden Flowers nursery, lists some other hybrids of A viridiflora, two with A brevistyla and one with A thalictrifolia, a couple with pictures on this page:
http://www.cgf.net/plants.php?genus=AQUILEGIA
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I've been trying to find a picture of my plant without success, it was shown at Cleveland and Midland last year, but it's difficult to photograph. It is quite small, and has a fantastic scent. It's just coming into growth this year. It made lots of seed, one pot's worth kept, and the rest sent to the seed exchange.
Diane, if you sent your seeds to AGS there's a distinct possibility that some of my seedlings are from your seeds.
:)
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Bob Brown, proprietor of Cotswold Garden Flowers nursery, lists some other hybrids of A viridiflora, two with A brevistyla and one with A thalictrifolia, a couple with pictures on this page:
http://www.cgf.net/plants.php?genus=AQUILEGIA
Very interesting! The viridiflora x thalictrifolia looks awesome. Some of the double aquilegia hybrids are freakish in my opinion, although some of the crosses between species are quite elegant.
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I am of the opinion that the 'Chocolate Soldier' name is one of those dreamed up by nursery people to make the plant easier to sell, not necessarily a valid name in that the plant is no different from the species.
There's A. fragrans for your breeding programme Mark. I grew this from seed about 5 years ago and still have a few. They were all beautifully fragrant but possibly had some hybrid blood in them as the colour range was from straight cream to straight blue or lavender, and several quite pleasant combinations including some white.
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I am of the opinion that the 'Chocolate Soldier' name is one of those dreamed up by nursery people to make the plant easier to sell, not necessarily a valid name in that the plant is no different from the species.
There's A. fragrans for your breeding programme Mark. I grew this from seed about 5 years ago and still have a few. They were all beautifully fragrant but possibly had some hybrid blood in them as the colour range was from straight cream to straight blue or lavender, and several quite pleasant combinations including some white.
I was incorrect in my memory of the fragrant Aquilegia from the Chris Chadwell Himalayan seed, you're quite right Lesley, it was indeed A. fragrans (note to myself, don't trust memory, always verify facts from records and references). Mine from collected seed was a beautiful crealy white, I suspect anything of a different color these days is a hybrid. I once grew some listed as A. fragrans from SEEDEX seed years after the Chadwell seed, and they were much taller and blue-tinged, and not as fragrant, again probably hybrids.
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McMark, you must expect your memory to play tricks when you are poisoning your system with pipe smoke... and you a runner, too! :o
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McMark, you must expect your memory to play tricks when you are poisoning your system with pipe smoke... and you a runner, too! :o
Only my avatar alter-ego smokes (these avatars can be a shoddy lot), personally I don't touch the stuff. Although after todays 5-miler, I was huffing and puffing (clean cold air).
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Today I noticed the backs of the leaves of my viridiflora atropurpurea are a beautiful purple colour when the sun shines on them.
I have a viridiflora that I wintered indoors ( long story) that actually has a flower bud at the moment. The backs of the leaves are green.
So I am wondering if the purple backs of the leaves are the difference.
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Helen, I would think that a plant with more purple in the flower would be likely to have more purple somewhere else,too, be it leaf backs, stems etc.
The opposite effect from , say, Lewisia plants where the white flowered tweedyi and cotyledon, for instance, have noticeably fresher green foliage than any of the coloured varieties.
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So, Maggi, are you saying that the seedlings with the purple backed leaves will have more purple on the flowers?
That this is just a varietion of A. viridiflora?
I need more clues ???
Thought I was onto something here :)
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Since it seems to be that atropurpurea has more purple inthe flower, then I would expect it to have more colour in the foliage too... so the seedlings may show the same level of variation in flower colour.... :D
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Aquilegia atropurpurea is usually cultivated as Aquilegia viridiflora.
The latter is depicted in the links below
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/73673.html
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/73672.html
The following links are probably misidentifications.
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/55932.html
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/55931.html
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/55930.html
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The first two are beautiful, have never seen this colour before.
Are they scented?
These are what I have grown from seed as A. viridiflora.
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I like all of the Aquilegia shown here so far, particularly the links Josef posted as "probably misidentifications", love the flower color combination of purple sepals and yellow cup, and the distinctly narrow foliage dissection. I agree Helen, the flowers on viridiflora are striking, certainly appropriately named.
I'm just going "along for the ride" on this, sitting back to learn what develops :D
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interesting plants, all,--nice colours, helen..
hard to see why the purple flowers should be 'viridi'flora, though i know some species end up having forms that don't match the species name..
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Cohan, it has always had me wondering the same thing but until now I have never seen the all green flowers.
Now I am wondering even more.
( where to get one haha!!)
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Thought it might be interesting to link back to this old thread :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4984.0
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Thanks for the link, Maggi.
So, I had seen the green form before and forgotten. I don't think I will forget the new pics anytime soon. :)
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Thought it might be interesting to link back to this old thread :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4984.0
Maggi,
Perhaps you could append my thread to the old one.
I was not aware of it.
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Certainly, I will merge the two threads.
These plants are so interesting- I must confess that for me the scent of these green and purple varieties is the most enticing feature after their delicate form.
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Aquilegia in the on-line catalogue of the flora of Siberia
Aquilegia amurense
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/win/elbib/atlas/flora/3709.html
Aquilegia atropurpurea
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/win/elbib/atlas/flora/3710.html
Aquilegia borodinii
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/win/elbib/atlas/flora/3920.html
Aquilegia burjatica
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/win/elbib/atlas/flora/3711.html
Aquilegia glandulosa
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/win/elbib/atlas/flora/408.html
Aquilegia leptoceras
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/win/elbib/atlas/flora/3712.html
Aquilegia oxysepala
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/win/elbib/atlas/flora/3713.html
Aquilegia parviflora
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/win/elbib/atlas/flora/3459.html
Aquilegia sibirica
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/win/elbib/atlas/flora/3714.html
Aquilegia viridiflora
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/win/elbib/atlas/flora/3733.html
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The plant posted by Helen is undoubtedly Aquilegia atropurpurea in the recent Russian approach presented above.
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The approach is different in Flora of China.
5a. Aquilegia viridiflora var. viridiflora Sepals and petals yellowish green.
5b. Aquilegia viridiflora var. atropurpurea (Willdenow) Finet & Gagnepain Sepals and petals dark purple.
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Certainly, I will merge the two threads.
Thank you.
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Josef, are those pages only available in Russian? At the root of that site, there is an option for English, but clicking it, many or most of the links disappear, so I assume only a small portion of the site is available in English.
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/en/
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Josef, are those pages only available in Russian? At the root of that site, there is an option for English, but clicking it, many or most of the links disappear, so I assume only a small portion of the site is available in English.
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/en/
It is written in Russian. The source of the information was translated and already published in English.
Friesen, Aquilegia. In: Malyshev, Peshkova, Flora of Siberia, 6. Science Publishers, Enfield 2003.
Perhaps you can borrow it in a public library. There are 14 volumes of the Flora of Siberia.
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Josef, are those pages only available in Russian? At the root of that site, there is an option for English, but clicking it, many or most of the links disappear, so I assume only a small portion of the site is available in English.
http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/en/
It is written in Russian. The source of the information was translated and already published in English.
Friesen, Aquilegia. In: Malyshev, Peshkova, Flora of Siberia, 6. Science Publishers, Enfield 2003.
Perhaps you can borrow it in a public library. There are 14 volumes of the Flora of Siberia.
Thanks for the citation. Maybe I'll write to Dr. Nikolai Friesen to see if he has a PDF to share on Aquilegia. Plus he is one of the the world's experts on Allium, found the following site with lots of downloadable PDFs, mostly on his works on Allium, was happy to find the 3-installment treatment of Allium in 2001 Flora of Siberia; PDFs specifically on Aquilegia where not found there, but I'll ask.
http://www.biologie.uni-osnabrueck.de/bogos/?mg=10;b=wir_ueber_uns/friesen/l_i_s_t__of__p_u_b_l_i_k_a_t_i_o.htm
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Helen,
If you are an Aquilegia enthusiast, you might enjoy the following pages of Robert Hoeck
http://www.edelbrandbrennerei.at/page11.php
His Aquilegia jonesii is a superb clump. He lives in the mountains in Tirol.
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In addition to Josef's link to Robert Hoeck's web site (which I fully agree, it is a great site from a person with passion for aquilegia), the following link goes through microsoft translator.
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.aspx?ref=BVNav&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.edelbrandbrennerei.at%2Fpage11.php
Robert has produced an eye-catching 6-minute YouTube video with a musical soundtrack showing Aquilegia hybrids and species. Be sure to watch for a hybrid he produced of A. fragrans x chrysantha (it is to die for gorgeous), some rare species like the two-toned yellow A. hinckleyana, along with more hybrids like the nodding red 'Crimson Lady'. Note: from the translated website above, the video links do not work for me, so I embed the video here.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyWumbLjEq0[/youtube]
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Josef,
Thank you very much for the link.
What a wonderful collection of aquilegias.
The blue and yellow one he thinks is A. jucunda is wonderful.
Some of my favourites though are his hybrids.
I would love to try some crosses after seeing his, unfortunately, the wee harlequin stinkbugs ruin most of my seed.
Mark, am saving the youtube vids for later on, am in serious aquilegia overload at the moment ;D
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The web side from Robert Hoeck very useful!
It is stored in my favourites now. :)
Thanks Josef.
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McMark,
Do you think his Aquilegia saximontana is really the species or not
http://www.edelbrandbrennerei.at/attachments/Image/saximontana.JPG
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/4285285548_8393bbb66c_o.jpg
It is a pygmy plant of 6 cm height and the white margin is not sharply
delimited, which speaks pro, but the spurs are merely
slightly divergent, which speaks contra.
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Maybe I'll write to Dr. Nikolai Friesen to see if he has a PDF to share on Aquilegia. PDFs specifically on Aquilegia where not found there, but I'll ask.
I am interested for his argumentation there for the distinctness of Aquilegia atropurpurea and Aquilegia viridiflora at specific level. Provided there is any in the treatment. There is no one in Flora of China for the contrary.
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McMark,
Do you think his Aquilegia saximontana is really the species or not
http://www.edelbrandbrennerei.at/attachments/Image/saximontana.JPG
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/4285285548_8393bbb66c_o.jpg
It is a pygmy plant of 6 cm height and the white margin is not sharply
delimited, which speaks pro, but the spurs are merely
slightly divergent, which speaks contra.
Josef, I saw those two pics on Robert Hoeck's web site, and was wondering the same thing. On the US Forest Service link in the Aquilegia saximontona topic, the first photo on that site shows a similar flower having only "slightly divergent" spurs. The flowers do have spurs that only slightly inroll at the ends, and show the characteristic soft color transition from blue to white in the cup, and the narrow urn-shape to the cup. The foliage also looks saximontana-like, with those forward-facing narrow leaf lobes.
So, it is either a form of A. saximontana, or possibly a hybrid with that species that has retained much of the saximontana characteristics.
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Maybe I'll write to Dr. Nikolai Friesen to see if he has a PDF to share on Aquilegia. PDFs specifically on Aquilegia where not found there, but I'll ask.
I am interested for his argumentation there for the distinctness of Aquilegia atropurpurea and Aquilegia viridiflora at specific level. Provided there is any in the treatment. There is no one in Flora of China for the contrary.
I will post back here if I find out anything. :D
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I have heard back from Dr. Nikolai Friesen (PD Dr. Nikolai Friesen, Curator Botanical Garden of the University of Osnabrueck), here is what he has to report:
In the attachment please find the PDF file of Aquilegia from English version of Flora Siberia. I think Aquilegia atropurpurea and A. viridiflora a good species. It is also one more species from this group described - Aquilegia burjatica. Some taxa groups in Flora of China and Flora of Siberia have different species level.
In the botanical key, it comes down to the three species mentioned by Dr. Friesen; A. atropurpurea, viridiflora, and burjatica. Since this is newer than Flora of China, I plan on going with this botanical treatment.
Thanks for Dr. Friesen for his willingness and generosity to share this information. Since the SRGC Forum has a file attachment limitation of 500 KB, and the PDF is about 4 times that size I have uploaded it to my website for download for students of Aquilegia:
http://www.plantbuzz.com/buzz/Aquilegia%20in%20Flora%20Siberia%20Vol7resize.pdf (http://www.plantbuzz.com/buzz/Aquilegia%20in%20Flora%20Siberia%20Vol7resize.pdf)
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Folks, to make the document kindly shared by Dr Friesen easier to download I have resized it and split it in two parts..... each well below the 500kb limit.....
Aquilegia in Flora Siberia (Vol 7) .. parts 1 and 2
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
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Maggi, thanks muchly ;D
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Hi,
You should also take a look to the brandnew video about columbine collection 2010.
Have you ever seen a Aquilegia longissima with such long spurs?
Aquilegia viridiflora/ atropurpurea is also on it and a dubious Aquilegia kuhistanica... dubious because its not mentioned in Nolds Monography.
I dont know how to put a video into this but hopefully it works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyXAtj6hdwM
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Hey Rob, a very warm welcome to you!
I could watch these videos all day..... especially when we have so much snow..... cheers me up!
The extremely long spurs are truly a beautiful feature..... so elegant. I must grow more of these columbines!
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Hi Rob, what a wonderful collection of aquilegias.
I also like your cat, is it part siamese?
Really like your hybrids, especially the atrata x chrysantha and the ecalcarata hybrids.
Absolutely beautiful.
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For all the Aquilegia-freaks the Jelitto Seed Company offers 122(!) different seeds of Aquilegia species, hybrids
and cultivars. www.jelitto.com
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what a beautiful plate of Aquilegia!
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Hello :-)
Maby this photo would be very interesting for all Aquilegiaholics! ;-)
http://www.google.at/imgres?imgurl=http://www.edelbrandbrennerei.at/attachments/Image/2011/Aquilegia_Sorten_Hybriden_Arten.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.edelbrandbrennerei.at/page11.php&usg=__cVhhqTNolj64N9YRvbyZ5T8JHU0=&h=864&w=648&sz=274&hl=de&start=0&sig2=yS1bgoTM1MQIMtUTYXH1JQ&zoom=1&tbnid=oygw0mC5x5A10M:&tbnh=127&tbnw=95&ei=dGHrTf3PEMqr-gbOm5TlDw&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAquilegia%2Bchampagnatii%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1760%26bih%3D713%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=124&page=1&ndsp=43&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:0&tx=11&ty=65&biw=1760&bih=713(http://www.google.at/imgres?imgurl=http://www.edelbrandbrennerei.at/attachments/Image/2011/Aquilegia_Sorten_Hybriden_Arten.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.edelbrandbrennerei.at/page11.php&usg=__cVhhqTNolj64N9YRvbyZ5T8JHU0=&h=864&w=648&sz=274&hl=de&start=0&sig2=yS1bgoTM1MQIMtUTYXH1JQ&zoom=1&tbnid=oygw0mC5x5A10M:&tbnh=127&tbnw=95&ei=dGHrTf3PEMqr-gbOm5TlDw&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAquilegia%2Bchampagnatii%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1760%26bih%3D713%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=124&page=1&ndsp=43&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:0&tx=11&ty=65&biw=1760&bih=713)
it shows:
Reihe1: Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata "Blue BarLow", Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata "Christa Barlow", Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata"Black Barlow", Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata "Nora Barlow", Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata "Clementine Salmon Rose", Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata "Green Apples", Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata "White Barlow",
Reihe 2: Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata Blue, Aquilegia vulgaris var stellata "Marble Blue", Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata "Fire Wheel", Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata halbgefüllter Sämling, Sämling mit extra großen Blüten von Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata "Black Barlow", Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata "Clementine Red" Aquilegia vulgaris var. stellata "Clementine Black"
Reihe 3: Aquilegia vulgaris Wildform, Aquilegia vulgaris mit hellen Kronblattspitzen, Aquilegia vulgaris "William Guiness", Aquilegia vulgaris sanft violette Form, Aquilegia vulgaris var. nivea "Nivea", Aquilegia vulgaris "Marbled Pink"
Reihe 4: Aquilegia vulgaris dreimal gefüllte Formen, Aquilegia vulgaris mit heller getönten Kronblättern, Aquilegia atrata, Aquilegia vulgaris magentarot, Aquilegia vulgaris mit rosa Tönung
Reihe5: Aquilegia vulgaris gefülllter Hybrid-Sämling, Aquilegia vulgaris "Grandmothers Garden", Aquilegia vulgaris "Winky Double Red White", Aquilegia vulgaris "Bonnet", Aquilegia vulgaris "Ruby Port", Aquilegia vulgaris Flamboyant- Sämling, Aquilegia vulgaris "Tower White",
Reihe 6: Aquilegia großblumige gefüllte Hybride, Aquilegia Eigenzüchtung, gefüllt und großblumig, Aquilegia formosa, Aquilegia x puryearana x chrysantha, Aquilegia chrysantha,
Reihe7: Aquilegia canadensis, Aquilegia canadensis "Corbett", Aquilegia canandensis "Pink Lanterns", Aquilegia viridiflora var. atropurpurea, Aquilegia ecalcarata, Aquilegia oxysepala, Aquilegia viridiflora x chrysantha, Aquilegia langsporniger Sämling,
Reihe 8: Aquilegia "Spring Magic White", Aquilegia "Spring Magic Blue White", Aquilegia Spring Magic "Rose and Ivory", Aquilegia "Crimson Star", Aquilegia chrysantha x vulagaris
Best greetings from The Tyrol
Robert Höck
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Rob, thank you so much for taking the time and effort of making a "living diagram" of columbines, so colorful, useful, and beautiful. I have seedling plants of A. buergeriana in bloom now, persisting from plants grown about 15 years ago... they used to show more brownish purple coloration with the soft yellow, but these mostly soft yellow descendants are pleasing enough.
[attachthumb=1]
[attachthumb=2]
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Hi! :-)
Thank you! I happy cause you like my work.
Your Aquilergia buergeriana seedling is very beautiful. Wonderful pictures!!!!
Two years ago, I had one which was very close to yours, but this year I only have plenty of the redish ones. This redish ones often flower till late autum. Its really amazing
http://www.google.at/imgres?imgurl=http://www.edelbrandbrennerei.at/attachments/Image/Aquilegia_buergeriana_snow.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.edelbrandbrennerei.at/page11.php&usg=__pvj_isks-8rW7iOL9yhGFUPWQF8=&h=486&w=648&sz=55&hl=de&start=0&sig2=0jEXLhR_PfX6B9nCqX8Keg&zoom=1&tbnid=NvRpOM3jnR8OMM:&tbnh=134&tbnw=178&ei=WrvrTYCIDY-c-wbR4dXXDw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Daquilegia%2Bbuergeriana%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1760%26bih%3D713%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=808&vpy=87&dur=564&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=122&ty=135&page=1&ndsp=42&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0&biw=1760&bih=713
Best wishes, Robert
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Robert,
your web pages are superb. 8) I'm a great fan of aquilegias. They should be grown in every garden. ;D