Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: Sinchets on December 31, 2009, 09:39:25 PM
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The weather here has been very unusual for this time of year. Temperature records were set throughout Bulgaria on New Year’s Eve, with +23.2C being recorded for our nearest city.
Crocuses have been showing their noses around the garden for a few weeks and the heat of the last few days has really brought them on. Species I would not normally see here until the end of February or beginning of March are starting to show their buds.
Here we have what I believe is Crocus etruscus Crocus imperati in a bulb frame, Crocus laevigatus (Crete) in the vegetable patch and Crocus laevigatus still 'loving life' in the open garden!
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Spring already in Bulgaria?! I asume you will get winter eventually ... snowing (only a little) here again.
Your C etruscus is very early - timing is right for C imperati and it looks rather like that one too. Lovely to see them when all is cold and bleak here.
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Thanks, Tony, I will change the name.
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It is not yet Spring here- just an unusually warm period between snow storms. We are expecting more snow in a few days, but for now:
Crocus korolkowii 'Golden Nugget' and
Crocus sieberi 'Albus' , both in the open garden.
The C.sieberi is doing particularly well considering it was accidentally planted under the outfall of a gutter, which has not yet been repaired. I suppose it has enjoyed the 'snowmelt' ;D
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Nice start to the year Simon, they made me feel almost spring-like!
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Thanks, David, they brightened up my day too, and made a few honey bees very happy ;)
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Nice New Year, dear friends!
Here crocuses sleeping - picture made few minutes ago. For several years we hadn't so deep snow cover, I just measured in spot where wind didn't made corrections - 32 cm. Fortunately frost isn't so hard as it was promissed. This morning only minus 13 C, tomorrow promissed minus 19. No warming offered up to mid of January at least.
Janis
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Very pretty scene Janis. Do you have heaters, and what kind, in the greenhouses?
John
Nice New Year, dear friends!
Here crocuses sleeping - picture made few minutes ago. For several years we hadn't so deep snow cover, I just measured in spot where wind didn't made corrections - 32 cm. Fortunately frost isn't so hard as it was promissed. This morning only minus 13 C, tomorrow promissed minus 19. No warming offered up to mid of January at least.
Janis
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Bulgaria, it's (your) plants and it's weather don't stop surprising me Simon !!
What a great Spring show you're sharing !
Thanks !! :D :D
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Very pretty scene Janis. Do you have heaters, and what kind, in the greenhouses?
John
No, greenhouses are without heating. In first years I put electric hot-air blower in the first greenhouse, but it cost so high money for electricity bills... After that I introduced covering of beds and pots with 5 cm thick glasswool sheets and it works very well.
Janis
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Very pretty scene Janis. Do you have heaters, and what kind, in the greenhouses?
John
Just checked temperatures. Outside at present is minus 19 C, in the greenhouse air temperature is only minus 8 C. I don't know about temperature below covering, but I suppose it is only a pair degrees below zero as I put on covering when inside temperature was below zero and pot soil surface was frosen. This helps to keep low temperature below covering during periodical warming in winter and helps to keep bulbs from too early starting of growing. Although in previous winter some allium and tulip shoots grew through glasswool sheets before I took them off.
Janis
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Simon,
nice croci flowers - a pleasant anticipation to what you will show us in spring ;) :)
Nothing to report - just frozen noses everywhere in the garden...
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Only a week or two ago I was saying how early my Crocus are. Now they are stuck in blocks of ice for at least another week
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Dear Croconuts,
Here in Belgium we have a lot of snow and it is very cold, luckily I can spend my time to read the new Janis catalogue (internet version, only available by e-mail). He offers unusually large number of rare crocuses, between them are some nowhere else available and very great rarities. You can ask him copy by e-mail janis.bulb@hawk.lv
Hendrik
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The warm winds last night melted away 10cm of snow in 8 hours. Here is Crocus michelsonii flowering in the open garden :)
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And a true gem it is Simon !!!
Superb flower !!
Now about your weather.... :o ??? ::) ;D
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Amazing Simon!
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I don't understand it either, Luc. We have 4 more warm days forecast so far- then who knows?!
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Flowering today in the garden:
Crocus etruscus (?) sieberi atticus
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lovely couple of plants Simon. I suppose mine might be flowering but as the greenhouse door is frozen shut it is difficult to tell.
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Just making the most of a break in the weather, before the snow and -25C returns next week :'(
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Prior to the UK freeze I had a pot of sieberi 'Bowles White' with a single flower. Today I noticed there were 6 flowers. Despite the freeze and slight raise in temperature each day these buds have managed grow.
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Is sieberi 'Bowles White' the same as sieberi 'Album'? If it is, ours are tough little things too.
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Is sieberi 'Bowles White' the same as sieberi 'Album'? If it is, ours are tough little things too.
I think so. It seems that 'sieberi Album' is the currently accepted name.
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Hi Simon,
nice crocus pictures. 8)
But I have doubt (as you) it is C. etruscus because of the strong yellow (throat and outside) and no feathering outside.
It looks to me C. sieberi ssp. atticus (evt. nivalis or sublimis).
Does your crocus have hairs in the throat?
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Simon,
I love the delicate spattering of markings on the outside of the michelsonii. Looks like a striking species.
Here, we have 37-39oC forecast for the next few days..... not as bad as Adelaide which I think has 41oC today and tomorrow forecast. Still too darn hot though. :-X
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Many, many thanks, Armin. The throat- as far as we can tell looks hairless- so if this is C.sieberi ssp.atticus you have helped me locate a plant I thought I had lost several years ago!
Posting a larger pic taken with a macro lens.
Paul, the C.michelsonii is back from a 2year "sabbatical" when it didn't flower at all- so I am glad to see it again ;) That kind of heat is certainly going to 'ripen' your autumn bulbs!!
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Not sure if Simons plant is C sieberi although it really does look like it from above. The side view is not like any C sieberi that I have seen. It could be etruscus but the throat is very yellow. Perhaps a form of C biflorus, corm tunic would be papery not netted fibres. Sorry to cloud the issue but it would be a lot less fun if st was all easy!
Below a pic of C etruscus here with a yellowish throat. Or perhaps some of the plants we grow are hybrids?
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Thanks, Tony. It is the 'wrong' place so I will dig it up in summer and check the corm tunic.
It would explain a 'missing' sieberi atticus I had, or a 'missing' etruscus, as both were in my badly disturbed bed. My biflorus were on the whole in a different bed. ???
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Or perhaps some of the plants we grow are hybrids?
That's just what Ian and I were discussing!
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If it is any help my missing C.sieberi atticus was from Buried Treasure about 8 years ago. If anyone has pics of their form? I did also have C.aff sieberi from them, which 'vanished' in the attack.
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Simon,
I have aff. sieberi from R&R Wallis... may have been original source for Rareplants.
Picture here : reply 336 - Crocus January 2009.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2860.msg72679;topicseen#msg72679
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Thanks for that, Luc. It certainly doesn't look like your C.aff.sieberi- but at least I know what to look out for now ;)
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Tony, Chris
in my first view I thought of C. sieberi ssp. atticus due the yellow throat. I was a bit uncertain of the elongated flower form (usual it is more compact) but explained myself it might be caused by low light conditions. Also the fine dots of the exterior pedals appear often in many species/variations. But Tony's doubts (hybrid / biflorus) made me thinking and investigating more...
Now I have another proposal: Is it a form of C. abantensis? Chris did you ever bought them?
I found a picture in John Longsdale Edgewoodgardens which resembles strongly (fine dots, no stripes, yellow throat, flower shape)
http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/Plants_album/The%20Plants%20-%20%20Complete%20Collection/Iridaceae/Crocus/Subgen%20Nudiscapus%20Ser%20Reticulati/C.%20abantensis/slides/Crocus%20abantensis%200002.html (http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/Plants_album/The%20Plants%20-%20%20Complete%20Collection/Iridaceae/Crocus/Subgen%20Nudiscapus%20Ser%20Reticulati/C.%20abantensis/slides/Crocus%20abantensis%200002.html)
What do the experts say?
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Yes, Armin I have had C.abantensis (from Norman Stevens)- it is another one of my 'missing' bulbs- and yes I really do hate voles!! I think the form of the flower is quite normal as we have had no shortage of sunshine while it has been above ground. the flower is slightly smaller than the ones on C.sieberi 'Albus' nearby.
Thanks again for your help.
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I can see what you mean Armin - the flower has the right basic appearance. I'm still uncertain though. Not typical shape or outer petals for C abantensis. Janis (or others) may have seen the wild variation which might help. I still think the corm tunic will help. There are differences between abantensis and etruscus which although fine would still help make a decision.
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I can see what you mean Armin - the flower has the right basic appearance. I'm still uncertain though. Not typical shape or outer petals for C abantensis. Janis (or others) may have seen the wild variation which might help. I still think the corm tunic will help. There are differences between abantensis and etruscus which although fine would still help make a decision.
It is impossible to decide without seeing corm tunics. By flower I more tend to C. atticus or C. biflorus s.l. In attachment pictures of C. abantensis - looks very similar, too. The last show variability in wild.
Janis
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I'm looking on pictures made by Simon in his garden. In fireplace are playing yellow-orange-red flame flowers, it is warm. When I'm looking through window of my office to my garden, shivers run over me. Outside it is minus 15 C, all ids covered by deep snow. On radio I'm hearing about road chaos in Europe under snow, so I decided to show you some pictures from here. On first is twelve o'clock tea table, waiting serving. Brrrr.... Greenhouses are covered in deep snow. Chimneys are from house behind greenhouse. My greenhouses are without heating. Inside is minus 5 C and crocus leaves looks very good below cover.
Janis
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It has been an unusual winter, Janis. This time last year we had 80cm of snow and had to wait another month for the first brave Crocus to flower. ;)
I shall try to remember to take a pic of the corm when I dig the crocus up this summer.
Thanks to all again!
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Armin....
I am sure that is not C. abantensis at all. I have visited two times Abant but I have never seen a speckled sample. in your picture from edgewoodgarden there is too much contrast.
It doesn't look either a biflorus to me!
It is nearer to C. sieberi sp. as Armin's first thought.
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Such a pleasure to see your crocuses in flower enjoying the sunlight Simon, hard to imagine your warm temperatures when it's so freezing here - all our noses are red!
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Hi Janis, Its a wonder any crocus survive in your conditions. Here in the UK, we are also having a cold spell. At the moment we have 150mm of snow and night time temperatures of about -8 deg C. Below is a picture of one of my greenhouses, which are heated by thermostatically controlled fan heaters to keep the frost out.
Latest crocus to flower is this sieberi nivalis or subimis (can`t see any hairs in throat) which came from Didima at 800M.
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Lol- maybe we need a new thread for snow covered greenhouses ;)
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Janis,
many thanks for your comments and showing us the variability of C. abantensis in the wild.
Ibrahim,
many thanks for your notes too. Sometimes first thought is the best ;) ;D
It seems we can't solve the little puzzle w/o lifting corm, sorry Chris.
Snow covered greenhouses: -Currently Europe is one single big icehouse.-
The last 2 days northern Germany was strongly hit by blizzard "Daisy". TV & Radio news were/are full of reports from snow drifts, booged down travellers, accidents and traffic caos, incommunicato of many villages, on the baltic sea cost there is a flood and imminence of breaching dams...
Accidentally, this evening the movie "The day after tomorrow" was shown on TV, a story describing the impressive horror scenario of the next ice age. Outside here there is currently heavy snow fall, too.
A moment I started to believe we will end up with half year snow cover w/o spring crocus flowers...
That would be tough! ::)
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Now that the snow has receded enough for me to easily get into the greenhouse I brought some crocus into the warm to photograph.
Crocus corsicus DMH2005-5 from Foret de Carrozzico 950m (very fragrant in the warm)
Crocus flavus from Northern Greece
Crocus olivieri from Vaskina Peloponnese.I like the bold stripe on the leaves of this species.
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I was already envious on New Year to see al those fantastic Cocus in the garden from Simon,splendid.
I don't know what it is but flowering Crocus make me happy each time.
Their flowering period is just perfect,always after a period that most flowers are far away .
Nice to follow the discussions from al this specialists on this thread ,learning a lot .
Nice selection Melvyn , I most like the first one because of the
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Something goes wrong ...Want to say because of the markings on the outside of the flower.
But the yellow ones bring the spring right in our livingroom.
So far ,Crocus is not a great succes in our garden.Not in pots and not planted out.
The bulbs getting smaller and smaller by the time and after two or three years nothing left...
The only ones that does wel are some species like speciosus and the goulimyi's that Rik gave me .
Must study on that...
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Melvyn,
nice croci pictures. It seems you have a quite warm greenhouse initiating the early flowerage. :)
I'm surprised about C. corsicus. In my garden it is usual one of the last speci in flower.
And I like your form of C. oliveri. Indeed very nice foliage, fine pedal markings and calyx. 8)
Unfortunately lost mine during winter 2008/2009 due bare frosts and too much moist.
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Our unseasonally warm start to 2010 has brought the wild Crocus season forward by a month. The areas we visited today were under snow this time last year. Two sites were visited- these pictures are from the first site. Rough grassland on limestone bordering on oak and beech woodland.
Crocus biflorus adamii :)
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The second site is south facing and at a lower altitude. It had a greater population in flower and also greater variability in flower colour.
Forms were found ranging from albinos to white with one pale blue stripe, through shades of lilac with speckles or stripes and on to lilacs with solid purple outers.
Unfortunately by the time we arrived the sky had clouded and flowers were closing.
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These pics show some of the white with stripes forms.
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Some forms with solid purple outers were especially attractive.
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Simon, fantastic crocuses, especially on last entry. Can you show some picture from top, to see throat?
Janis
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Sorry, Janis. It was a difficult day for taking pics and we had lost the light at the second site. These 2 pics were taken at the first site.
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The last pics are of a group shot under a bush, and an individual where the 3 outers were white and unmarked, but the inners were striped- contrary to all of the other ones we saw today.
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Here is a pic of C. baytopiorum pots in flower from my greenhouse today, although it's a new set up and I had hoped for an improvement on last year's etiolation (see threads passim!) they're just as bad!
However, flkowers are still beautiful and they grow well - and thanks to Annew from the forum for the contents of the lower pot. Also on the subject of forum generosity, i have 3 seedlings up of C. nerimaniae, thanks Tony (Willis)!
Alex
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We can sympathise onthe problem of etiolation, Alex... our bulbs under glass suffer badly from the low light levels. This year, though, with all the recent snow, it is to be expected that the poor wee flowers will be stretching, don't you think? It's a hard time for them!
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Simon very nice pictures from wild. My favorites also like Janis Nr. b a 14 & b a 5.
In my region they are always stained blue with dark flower tubes. (like your last four shots which Janis means) Do you have any cloase up picture for showing the corm and leaves color? because mines which I have seen they have always grey-green leaves! otherwise the petals look very variable.
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Fair dos Maggi, perhaps I shouldn't be so critical...
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Fair dos Maggi, perhaps I shouldn't be so critical...
That's the spirt, Alex.... you'd be a bit drawn and weak if you spend much time in a glasshouse in this weather, now, wouldn't you? Be generous with the poor bulbs and be glad they're alive at all ;D
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It is strange but we have 10 c. more than average temparature. I am afraid that we will not see winter in Istanbul this year!
While you are fighting with snow or mybe a little ice age in Europe!
Here are a few pics of C. biflorus adamii from my region, very common forms to compare with Simon's pics.
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Nice pics, Ibrahim. Comparing your pics to ours- the ones you show seem to have larger flowers and wider leaves than the ones we saw. I do not know if this is environmental- though at the second site here they were mainly growing in areas where a humic soil had build up near bushes, trees and grassy tussocks. We do wonder if predation pressures here prevent plants forming lrge corms and sizeable clumps. The leaves are dark green, narrow and 2 to 4 in number- they are generally shorter than the flowers at flowering. This is a closeup from one of the few pics we have showing the leaves clearly, but I think it is representative.
By the way - it is not just Turkey. The Balkan peninsula (or at least the part south of Romania) has been warmer than average for the last 2 weeks. All set to change though with snow on the way ;)
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Some very nice Crocus there Simon !
ba 2 and 5 are my favourites !
Thanks for showing and do enjoy both the good weather while it lasts and the snow when it comes !! ;) ;)
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Many thanks, Luc. The darkest one (no.5) is my favourite too.
Do you think this Crocus looks like your Crocus aff. sieberi we were talking about a few days ago? It opened for the first time yesterday.
Also another shot of the ones I posted a few days ago which could be C.sieberi atticus.
The snow has arrived just now ;)
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The side view does look like it Simon - I'll take a closer look tonight and compare with my pix when I get home.
Would you have a top view of the open flower ?
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Many thanks, Luc. This is a top shot- the clearest I have. ;)
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Here's 4 views from my C. aff. sieberi Simon - I'll leave you (or other specialists) to be the judge, personally I think there are certain resemblances, yet it doesn't seem to be quite the same yours.
closed flower - semi open, fully open and view from below.
Anyway, have a look !
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Many thanks again, Luc. It is a tricky one- maybe I should label mine Crocus aff. aff. sieberi. ;)
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Simon, Ibrahim, Luc
excellent crocus pictures from you. :o
Simon,
we have puzzled a lot regarding your unknown "missing" croci.
From your last pictures I state C. aff. sieberi is C. sieberi ssp. atticus!
The speckled crocus (named as C. sieberi ssp. atticus) I would name C. aff. sieberi (unless corm tunics show bilflorus blood).
Sorry for any confusion. ;D :-*
Luc,
I don't have a real clue what is yours :-\ - but beautiful. ;)
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Thanks, Armin ;)
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I'm with Armin on Simons ssp atticus.
Luc, yours with the pjc label may be a hybrid with C veluchensis. There are mountains where this and C sieberi ssp sublimis overlap where there are supposed hybrids. These have flowers often shaped like C veluchensis but with a yellow/ish throat. I cannot recall which mountain this occurs on (?Olympus) but similar plants of this origin have been exhibited at AGS shows.
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Thanks everyone !!
Mine was bought as a bulb from R&R Wallis, but I have no information as to where it grows.
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I'm with Armin on Simons ssp atticus.
Luc, yours with the pjc label may be a hybrid with C veluchensis. There are mountains where this and C sieberi ssp sublimis overlap where there are supposed hybrids. These have flowers often shaped like C veluchensis but with a yellow/ish throat. I cannot recall which mountain this occurs on (?Olympus) but similar plants of this origin have been exhibited at AGS shows.
Tony
I think the most notable place where they occur together is on Parnassus and here what appear to be hybrids are quite common.
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Last year I posted a pic of what I am growing as Crocus biflorus punctatus. This year I checked an excellent resource to see if my naming was correct- it looks different to the pic there ;). I also checked the pic on the suppliers website, again it is different. Any ideas most welcome. :) The plant is flowering now in the garden in a clear spell between snowfall.
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Simon, I agree your plant doesn't look like the photo in your "excellent source" ;)
But this doesn't mean, that your plant is wrong. As you have seen in the adamii habitat,
Crocus biflorus can be very variable - the same variability can occour in punctatus.
The biflorus group is one of the most difficult in the genus and I would never dare
to give a 100% identification just from a photo. One of the most important features is
to know where the plant came from, if this isn't known you can cancel any ID attemps.
Punctatus got its name from the speckled outer petals, but I don't know if this is constant
allthrough the species. I have biflorus ssp melantherus, looking exactly like your plant -
this species is generally known for striped outer petals, but some plants don't have stripes.
I would recommend to compare your plant with the article "crocus biflorus in Anatolia"
by Kerndorff and Pasche. You can find some useful dates of the original species there.
Hope this helps
TH
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I would recommend to compare your plant with the article "crocus biflorus in Anatolia"
by Kerndorff and Pasche. You can find some useful dates of the original species there
..... in the RHS .. "the Plantsman" journal, I think.
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The source was PC and the plants on his site pic have lilac flowers, but in no way, shape or form am I complaining ;D
Here are 2 pics of the same plant now that the flower has closed at the end of the day- there seem to be almost 3 stripes on the outer petals. Thanks, Thomas :)
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I would recommend to compare your plant with the article "crocus biflorus in Anatolia"
by Kerndorff and Pasche. You can find some useful dates of the original species there
..... in the RHS .. "the Plantsman" journal, I think.
Here (http://www.biologiezentrum.at/pdf_frei_remote/LBB_0036_1_0005-0010.pdf) too for description of 2 new taxa in the biflorus complex.
More here (http://www.biologiezentrum.at/pdf_frei_remote/LBB_0029_1_0591-0600.pdf) (auf Deutsch), although not punctatus either.
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I would recommend to compare your plant with the article "crocus biflorus in Anatolia"
by Kerndorff and Pasche. You can find some useful dates of the original species there
..... in the RHS .. "the Plantsman" journal, I think.
Here (http://www.biologiezentrum.at/pdf_frei_remote/LBB_0036_1_0005-0010.pdf) too.
Even better, Ashley! Many thanks. 8)
Mmm..... that not the paper with the references to C. biflorus punctatus, though..... that is another, I fear.....
Crocus biflorus in Anatolia: part two.
Personal Authors: Kerndorff, H., Pasche, E.
Author Affiliation: Sundgauer Str. 144, 14167, Berlin, Germany.
Document Title: Plantsman
Abstract:
In this second part, a closer look is taken at individual C. biflorus populations in Lycian and Pisidian Taurus of SW Anatolia of Turkey. In addition to these two areas, SW Anatolia also consists of Caria and Pisidia, and these four areas seem to be the centre of distribution for the C. biflorus aggregate. This article considers the climate and phytogeographical elements of these areas, and reports a study of 25 populations. Some 7 characters were measured for a mean of 30 individuals per population and the data were subjected to multivariate analysis using UPGMA cluster analysis. The resulting dendrogram had two main clusters, the first comprising mainly of populations of subsp. tauri while the second comprised populations with affinities to subspp. nubigena, pseudonubigena and punctatus. Populations of the first cluster mainly belonged to the Irano-Tauranian element whereas populations of the second cluster either belonged to the Mediterranean element or to the Mesopotamian district of the Irano-Turanian element. A series of colour photographs and maps are included.
Publisher: Royal Horticultural Society (RHS)
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Sorry Maggi, reading the other one put punctatus out of my mind.
Subscription only it seems :P
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Yes, Ashley...... drat it! :P
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The source was PC and the plants on his site pic have lilac flowers, but in no way, shape or form am I complaining ;D
Here are 2 pics of the same plant now that the flower has closed at the end of the day- there seem to be almost 3 stripes on the outer petals. Thanks, Thomas :)
Whatever it is Simon, it's a real beauty !!
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I agree, Luc- and maybe one of those flowers better appreciated closed than open.
Also 'flowering' here today another group of C.korolkowii, which I may not get to see open as we have more snow on the way.
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Crocus biflorus punctatus is quite specific plant. For determination can be used hard coriaceous corm tunics (similar to isauricus). Important is length of filaments and anthers. In subsp. punctatus filaments are 2-4 mm long, anthers 11-13 mm long, but in isauricus - filaments 4-7 mm long, anthers 7-11 mm long. There are two forms generally in cultivation, white and blue. Anthers usually has blackish basal lobes, but in white colored specimens they can be absent. Those basal lobes you can see on fragment of picture.
Simon's plant has blackish tips of anthers which are not so characteristic, but variability can be larger than known to me. At present I can't remember that I sometimes saw such anthers. I suppose that I know from where (not from me!) comes corms sold by PC. There are grown several biflorus complex acquisitions and corms offered by him could be hybrids. But this is only speculation.
Janis
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Thanks, janis. The stigmas of mine are longer than the stamens unlike those you show. Have you any ideas what the parents could be if this is a hybrid?
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Thanks, janis. The stigmas of mine are longer than the stamens unlike those you show. Have you any ideas what the parents could be if this is a hybrid?
May be nubigena, pseudonubigena. Really I have no idea at present.
Janis
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Regarding C. biflorus ssp. punctatus discussion:
Does anybody have good pictures of C. alatavicus (i.e.top view to see style and anthers) for comparison?
I did not found a good one. It is just to satisfy my interest. :D
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The biflorus group is one of the most difficult in the genus and I would never dare
to give a 100% identification just from a photo. One of the most important features is
to know where the plant came from, if this isn't known you can cancel any ID attemps.
TH
I struggle with this concept,surely if it is distinct it must key out. I had this discussion once about dactylorhiza and was told knowing where it came from was essential in order to identify it. There seems no logic in this.
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I'm inclined to agree with Thomas. Species and subspecies are often described from a limited number of individuals found in 1 particular location. If you are then presented with a plant from an intermediate location will it be difficult to identify this from a key that was not designed to include intermediates.
This is made even more difficult in genera such as Dactylorhiza, which show natural variation making keying out difficult. They also hybridise easily and knowing a location makes it easier to work through the possible parent species. Go to another location and the genetic makeup could be quite different. Better still go to an area like Bulgaria or Northern Greece, where Dactylorhiza in the mountain areas have been poorly studied, and you can only make assumptions based on possibilities. Even this has its faults. What do you do when a key says a plant does not grow in a certain area? Ophrys reinholdii was discovered growing in Bulgaria a few years. Check any orchid book from before this date and Bulgaria will not be in a list of locations for this species- yet it does grow here ;)
Keying out is made harder when new species are determined by ever smaller details and differences, so that ultimately we are left with a hoard of 'mutabile', 'confusum' and 'sororum' species as we see in Fritillaria and Colchicum.
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I struggle with this concept,surely if it is distinct it must key out. I had this discussion once about dactylorhiza and was told knowing where it came from was essential in order to identify it. There seems no logic in this.
Surely you are right, Tony, the plant must key out somehow, but I only meant that this is hard to do ONLY FROM A PHOTO!
There might be species from the biflorus complex, for which this is possible, like ssp biflorus with its wide distribution in
Italy, but looking at the rare ones like ssp punctatus, that only grow in a small area it is hard if not impossible in my opinion.
In the last years there have been so many new discoveries of biflorus ssp, some of them only present on a single mountain,
they look similar to other ssp in first sight, but they do show important differences and the phylogenetic research of these
plants shows clearly, that they are related to other ssp, but not the same. And I have to agree with Simon: The biflorus
ssp show an unbelievable amount of variation, so how can these plants be described from just a few samples? And we have
to accept, that plants don't read these books in which humans write how they have to look and where they have to grow ;D
To find a final conclusion, I hope you will agree with me, that it is really helpful for ID to know where the plants origin was?
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I'm with Armin on Simons ssp atticus.
Luc, yours with the pjc label may be a hybrid with C veluchensis. There are mountains where this and C sieberi ssp sublimis overlap where there are supposed hybrids. These have flowers often shaped like C veluchensis but with a yellow/ish throat. I cannot recall which mountain this occurs on (?Olympus) but similar plants of this origin have been exhibited at AGS shows.
Going back to my C. aff. sieberi (pix in reply 66) R&R Wallis replied to my query that they have been growing this Crocus for over 30 year and have no idea where it was originally collected by Paul Christian. However they believe it is mentioned in B. Mathew's Crocus bible from which they kindly sent me following quote (page 65)
"
Before the next subspecies, mention must be made of a Crocus which grows in the N. Peloponnese but which does not agree in its characters or habitat with subsp. sublimis. In 1966 I collected some corms of a Crocus (Mathew 5071) near Langadia which I took to be C. cancellatus because of their coarsely netted corm tunics and narrow leaves. However in the following year both the autumnal C. cancellatus and a spring-flowering one appeared in the batch of corms, the latter bearing some resemblance to C. sieberi. A further collection has been made in the same area by P.J. Christian. This "species near sieberi" has a reticulated corm tunic, much coarser than that of C. sieberi subsp. sublimis, and very narrow erect leaves with ribs in the grooves on the underside - a character not associated with C. sieberi. The flowers produced in spring, are lilac with a paler slightly silvery exterior to the outer segments and the pale yellow throat is pubescent. In overall appearance it is thus different to the broad-leaved tricoloured C. sieberi variant which grows nearby in damp wooded areas; the habitats of the two are quite different, for the narrow-leaved one grows in scree-like conditions. Field studies are required before a decision can be made about this plant.
"
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Thomas
I think this subject has been discussed endlessly and I do not think common ground will be found. There are those who like to split them up and those who do not,and I am happy to go with that.
We have an area where a lot of the inhabitants have webbed feet. On the basis that crocus and other plants are being divided on such minor details does this make them a sub species of the human race or are they just inbred because travelling used to be difficult?
I collected many years a go a Crocus biflorus near Feithye and it was sent via a holder of a national collection to a most eminent expert on the genus who said that it was ssp pulchricolor. When this was queried because of course that ssp does not grow there he said 'well they just vary don't they'.
I attach a picture of one from Ulu Dag and one from near Feithye. I realise these are only phtographs but in fact the corm tunics are also similar.
We each pursue our interest in our own way and perhaps this makes us different ssp.
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Tony, I suppose we can assume the identity of this eminent expert, and also assume that maybe he was peeved that you had found something he did not know about.
Your finding has so many potential explanations: It may be shown to have extended the range of C.b.pulchricolor; or show that it's current range has contracted from a more extent one; or it could be a new form that resembles pulchricolor in too many ways to allow it to be keyed out in any other way. Does it come true from seed?
All of this emphasises how important it is to know the origins of a plant- yours could be a new floristic finding or a rogue finding which leads me onto..
Well done, Luc. A great piece of detective work. Does this apply to your plant or to mine? Seems strange they suggested more field studies needing doing back in 1966. I wonder if anyone ever went back ;)
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Simon
no you cannot guess and I would say he is a delightful person so no problem there. The reason I am not saying is because the information came back second hand and therefore I do not want to attribute something which may not have been repeated accurately.
I collected the seed in 1988 and have been back to the same area many more times. On the second visit which of course was to try and obtain more of this rare find the whole area had been cleared and turned into a eucalyptus plantation.
I have never produced seed and continue with the original few corms.
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:-[ :-[
Well, then indeed we will never know, and some of us- the ones who want to know, as well as grow- will be left wondering if the curent distribution of C.biflorus subspecies has as much to with random acts of habitat destruction- both contempory and historical- as it does with evolution and natural selection ;D
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Well done, Luc. A great piece of detective work. Does this apply to your plant or to mine? Seems strange they suggested more field studies needing doing back in 1966. I wonder if anyone ever went back ;)
This is info about my aff. sieberi Simon. ;)
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Are you open to offers of a timeshare on the information?
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??? ???
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I just want a background/ heritage for my plant ;)
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To lower the tone of this highbrow taxonomic discussion...
The promise iof things to come (C. gargaricus ssp. gargaricus); I prefer this stage to the actual flowers in some ways!
Crocus cvijicii, second corm about to flower
Crocus adanensis
I have a lot of C. baytopiorum too but you're not seeing those, since the flowers are so etiolated they're sprawled horizontally! I wonder why some like cvijicii seem to resist this (glad they do).
Finally, a question: Does C. gargaricus ssp. gargaricus produce any stolons at all, like ssp. herbertii does, or is it entirely stolon-free? This pot of ssp. gargaricus (allegedly) produces the odd stolon but nothing like as many as my true herbertii.
Cheers!
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Alex you are so far ahead of me. My Crocus gargaricus and cvicii are not showing through the grit yet. On the otherhand I have a number of chrysanthus and cyprius moving into flower.
As to the gargaricus I have never seen stolons on ssp gargaricus but have occasionally seen them on ssp herbertii. I think the growing conditions in the wild where I have found them are very different, with ssp herbertii often growing in standing water whereas ssp gargaricus was in much drier conditions. As to whether this affects there growth mechanisms I cannot tell.
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Thanks, Tony - by the way, all 4 of the C. nerimaniae seeds you sent me are now up!
Cheers,
Alex
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Alex
thats good. I saw I had an odd one germinating before the snow came and so I have kept them frost free.The reasoning behind this was I expect my crocus to germinate in the spring and I was worried the cold might cause them to either damp of or they just die for not being hardy enough.
I am amazed how advanced you are having seen the frit on the other thread. It looks stunning and not one I have seen in the flesh
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I think this subject has been discussed endlessly and I do not think common ground will be found. There are those who like to split them up and those who do not,and I am happy to go with that.
Re the Crocus biflorus ssps naming debate. I think that Tony, you have hit upon the answer with your naming stratgey for forum photos. ie. They are all C biflorus + name of the place they were found! As many will know I am by nature a lumper rather than a splitter but without different names how do we label them as individuals or types?
But then how do we name the plants we raise in cultivation ;) (and how many of these are hybrids?) It is a mire whichever way you approach it.
I may just need webbed feet to avoid getting stuck in the mud :D
At least they are not all white with green markings :-X
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Regarding C. biflorus ssp. punctatus discussion:
Does anybody have good pictures of C. alatavicus (i.e.top view to see style and anthers) for comparison?
I did not found a good one. It is just to satisfy my interest. :D
Sjaak de Groot (bulb specialist) asked me to send the following comments about Crocus alatavicus with some pictures:
After reading Armin's question, I looked through my pictures and found a very interesting fact, which I didn't notice before.
I saw that the Crocus alatavicus from Tien-Shan have white pistils, which is the same on a plant ex. J. Ruksans from the area of Chimgan, Uzbekistan.
Some years ago we found near Taldi-Goran in the foothills of the Dzjungarian Ala-Tau some Cr. alatavicus where flowering was nearly over and collected a few corms.
This place is a lot more north than Tien-Shan.
These types have an orange pistiland totally different from the Tie-Shan types, which grow on a much higher altitude.
In the Crocus book of Brian Mattew is a picture of Crocus alatavicus with yellow pistils.
Therefore is my conclusion that under the name Crocus alatavicus there are more than only one form.
Cr. alatavicus ex Dzjungarian Ala-Tau
Crocus alatavicus Chimgan ex J. Ruksans
Crocus alatavicus Dzjungarian Ala-Tau 950 mtr
Crocus alatavicus Geish plateau 2800 mtr above Almaty
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Luit,
thank you to Sjaak de Groot and to you for posting this excellent pictures of C. alatavicus and its different forms. 8) Aberated style/pistil is recorded in other crocus species too.
Usual this feature makes them very attractive and motivate breeders to give them cultivar names.
Probably there are much more forms in the wild of C. alatavicus compared to the view clones which are in commercial trade. Not all secrets of nature are lifted.
More exploration travels are required to those far away foreign regions.
All this makes the genus crocus so exciting. ;D
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I didn't visit the forum just few days, there are lots of things to read.
Simon for your speckled biflorus I agree with Thomas We have to know where it cames from or We have to use scale for each part of plants. But for unusual forms still it will not be easy to tell.
I believe that your biflorus is not a C. biflorus subsp. punctatus. I have seen a location of this plant last year they were all clearly speckled like the second sample of Janis and they were smaller than standart biflorus. I can tell that by checking the leaves of your biflorus, It might be C. biflorus subsp. biflorus. I have seen severel location of this subspecies. They might be striped, speckled or between both. Yours biflorus seems to my iyes also very lightly striped!.
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Yes, Ibrahim, it is slightly stiped, but with the stripes made from thicker concentrations of speckles.
I do not know where it was from, and as it does not look the same as the picture the supplier showed, I assume it is not the same as the plant he offered. I also know that this plant is not misidentified by accident here, as it was planted here directly and was bought after our vole problems. It hasn't moved since, though it is now maybe 5cm from the original label. i am not sure if there are more and will now have to wait until the snow melts to check. How would the leaves be different if it is subsp biflorus? Would it still have black anthers?
Simon
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Simon you are right, The standart C. biflorus subsp. biflorus has not black anthers but when we are walking on the thousands of C. biflorus, I can't say no!. Last year in one location I have seen very slightly blackish sing even on this subspecies. I will check this year If I can see blackish anthers!
Here is a similar one
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Thanks, Ibrahim. Are there areas where subsp punctatus grows near black anthered subspecies to form hybrids?
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Tony W.
Your biflorus from Fethiye might be C. biflorus subsp. ionopharynx. It says this supspecies is very close C. biflorus subsp. pulchricolor and also the location is not very far from Fethiye! Only the different is violet spot on throat and inside of anthers are blackish. This subspecies is known from ony two locations. Why not third location! (as everybody knows that each locations has some different characteristic sing)
Is it posible to check the throat?
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Simon in the region where the C. biflorus subsp. punctatus occur, there is also C. biflorus subsp. crewei with black anthered. But in the locations where I have seen it was alone.
The C. biflorus punctatus which I have seen, They were smaller, thiny and also with thiny leaves (mostly 3) It was evening time I couldn't made photos. Something between C. danfordiae and C. biflorus. That is the reason why I said It isn't C. biflorus puctatus.
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Tony W.
Your biflorus from Fethiye might be C. biflorus subsp. ionopharynx. It says this supspecies is very close C. biflorus subsp. pulchricolor and also the location is not very far from Fethiye! Only the different is violet spot on throat and inside of anthers are blackish. This subspecies is known from ony two locations. Why not third location! (as everybody knows that each locations has some different characteristic sing)
Is it posible to check the throat?
hello Ibrahim and thanks for your comments.It is not possible to look at the flowers until much later in the season, they are not through the grit yet. I am happy to do this when they flower and report back then.
As you know I said only a few days ago I just do not believe there are so many subspecies and certainly the comments by Janis on the allium thread shows how much uncertainty and confusion is being created by all this constant splitting.
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Ibrahim, thank you again for sharing your knowledge and experience of Crocus in Turkey.
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While Crocus get in the mood - lots in bud now - here's a couple to keep interest going. Nothing special and you'll have seen them before last year
chrysanthus Uschak Orange - not the first out this winter
imperati - bought as corsicus
sieberi ex Gothenburg - I'll get a better open flower later this week
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I was expecting your first flowers Mark ! :D
Good to see the season is getting on it's way ! :D
Just buds peeping through the gravel here at the moment and one (terribly etoliated) flower out of C. baytopiorum.
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Mark, thanks for the reminder of crocus to come - I love the way the C imperati opens from bud - looking forward to learning much more about Crocus from this thread
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imperati is one of my favourites. Do you grow it?
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No Mark, but I would love to if I can find it ::)
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Following advise from a kind soul here, I emailled a supplier for Crocus aff. sieberi and sent a pic of my unidentified plant. In their opinion it is neither C.aff sieberi nor C.sieberi, but possibly a C.biflorus. I am still trying to work out what it is and where it came from, as I don't remember having any biflorus like this one. Pics attached again for your reference ;)
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My Crocus imperatii are also still waiting for good times to come. Even while they were in bud from half December on, they survived the snow and -15C in the garden. Now temperatures rised to +5C and there was even some sun today and the buds turned yellowish again. Just a bit more sun and they will open up I hope.
I got mine from Pc Nijssen http://www.pcnijssen.nl/shop/ (http://www.pcnijssen.nl/shop/). Although it is in Dutch it might be worthwhile with prices like 6 Euro/per 5 bulbs.
Or you might try it even cheaper (and in English) from Verberghe http://www.eurobulb.nl/index.php/shop/34/Spring+flowering+bulbs/Crocus/small+flowered+crocuses+(botanical+crocuses).htm (http://www.eurobulb.nl/index.php/shop/34/Spring+flowering+bulbs/Crocus/small+flowered+crocuses+(botanical+crocuses).htm). There they go for 7euro per 10 bulbs. Or if you go Dutch (at the Dutch website) you can even get them for 6.50 Euro. But you have to wait until August.
I have good experiences with both suppliers although it can seldomly happen that the variety is not the exact one that you expected. But even then if it's not exacty what you want you can always place them in the lawn for prices like that.
And Simon, nice to see your pictures. I'm sorry I can't tell the species, but do they grow outside now?
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Simon It is hard to tell without corm tunic information.
I can post a few pics which looks similar!
C. biflorus supsp. pulchricolor.
(the leaves does not fit pulchricolor and in Uludağ. I did not see speckled forms!!)
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Thanks, Ibrahim- I see what you mean by similar- though the leaves of mine appear less lax. Maybe I have a pulchricolor hybrid?
They Crocus were all flowering in the garden on Thursday- it was cold from Friday to Sunday so they were closed- now they are under 25cm of snow and we will not see them for a few weeks. They had more buds coming so it will be good to see them again soon.
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Hi.
This crocus species is from Turkey, Middle Anatolia, Karaman province.
I check all the yellow crocus but I couldn't match any of them.
What do you think about it.
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It is a beautifully marked flower Ozgur :P
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First impression is that this is a form of Crocus chrysanthus although the style is not typical.
Below is a picture of one that I grow with similar markings.
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Hello Ozgür,
At first wellcome to the froum it is very nice to see new forumist :) :)
Your nice crocus is C. danfordiae yellow form.
I think I am not with Tony ! But the style is unusual!
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Yes - I think Ibrahim (and Dirk elsewhere) are correct. I assum this is a very small flower/plant. The black markings at the bottom of the anthers often occur in C danfordiae.
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Thanks for all comments...
Learnig its name is very excited.
;D
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I also think it is Crocus danfordiae.Here is a picture of one of mine with similar speckling. My first crocus of the new year,Crocus cyprius.
It is to dull to open any others although several are through. It got to 10c in one of the greenhouses during the brief half hour spell of sunshine this morning.
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Two beauties Tony !!
C. cyprius is a wee gem !!
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Tony, your Crocus cyprius is a great start to the new year - do you have a photo from above too? It's a very attractive shape and I love the dark plum feathering.
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here it is from above.
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Wow, wasn't expecting such a pronounced yellow throat - thanks for showing it from above, Tony :)
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Beautifully marked, Tony.
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Hi.
This crocus species is from Turkey, Middle Anatolia, Karaman province.
I check all the yellow crocus but I couldn't match any of them.
What do you think about it.
My first impression - danfordiae. What is the size of flower?
Janis
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An hour of SUN today brought these two almost out. I almost like them better at this stage. Crocus baytopiorum and Crocus korolkowii Mountain Glory.
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Best friends,
Herewith some rarities, flowering last Sunday during a rare moment of sunshine:
Crocus biflorus ssp. artvinensis and 2 forms of Crocus michelsonii.
Hendrik
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Very delicate markings, Hendrik.
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All beautys Rik ,but I like this Odissy most .
It looks that you got a lot to expect in the near future.
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tomorrow will be sunny all day so hopefully I'll get some photos
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Nice baytopiorum, Anne, and the corms you sent me are also flowering. I am very pleased with it since it is beautiful and etiolates far less than my other forms! It's almost normal with me. I hope the Narcissus are doing OK, I have a pot full of about 40 flowers coming which I'll photograph when it's out.
Cheers,
Alex
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An hour of SUN today brought these two almost out. I almost like them better at this stage. Crocus baytopiorum and Crocus korolkowii Mountain Glory.
Anne - your photos, both of crocus & narcissus, are very impressive. How do you do it?
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Hmm, I use aperture priority on my camera, can't usually be bothered with a tripod, delete most and have to tweak the rest in Photoshop!
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Some Crocus that are flowering here now:
Crocus alatavicus
Crocus korolkowii
Crocus laevigatus
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Anne,
Lovely C. baytopiorum !! (so much shorter than mine :-\)
Rik,
Some great looking Crocus !
biflorus artvinensis is beautifully marked !! :o
Not one I have seen before..
Wim,
Don't forget to show alatavicus again when it's open !! Looks great !
The laevigatus is very late though isn't it ??
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Luc,
the laevigatus grows outside so maybe it's late because of the cold weather we had the last month. I have some other laevigatus that are just showing buds so its isn't my last flowering laevigatus.
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Anne , not only beautiful pictures but also great plants.They look very healthy and it looks that they are grown hard .I think so because they are very squat ...
How you succeed ?
Wim ,nice plants .Are there other species you grow outside with succes in our wet country ?
(I mean botanical species and not the strong hybrids from the garden center)
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Anne is your camera point and shoot or DSLR? I love the combination of the two colours of your korolkowii.
So much for a weather forcast of bright sunshine all day across Ireland. Wherever I went today was foggy
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Kris,
I grow the following species outside:
Crocus abantensis
Crocus alatavicus
Crocus antalyensis ‘Sky Blue’
Crocus banaticus
Crocus chrysanthus ‘Sunspot’
Crocus chrysanthus ‘Uschak Orange’
Crocus dalmaticus ‘Petrovac’
Crocus flavus ssp. flavus
Crocus fleischeri
Crocus fleischeri ‘Gulek Pass’
Crocus gargaricus herbertii
Crocus goulimyi
Crocus hadriaticus
Crocus korolkowii
Crocus kotschyanus
Crocus laevigatus
Crocus longiflorus
Crocus niveus
Crocus nudiflorus
Crocus pallassii
Crocus sieberi ‘Tricolor’
Crocus veluchensis
Crocus vernus ssp. vernus var. heuffelianus ‘Carpathian wonder’
some of them with more success then others. I grow the ones that like a dry summer rest against a south facing wall in a very sandy soilmix which get covered in summer.
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Wim,
The laevigatus is very late though isn't it ??
Luc,
the laevigatus grows outside so maybe it's late because of the cold weather we had the last month. I have some other laevigatus that are just showing buds so its isn't my last flowering laevigatus.
According to Brian Mathew, the flowering season for C. laevigatus extends from October to March. Very late flowering ones occur in the Cyclades & they retain this habit in cultivation.
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Best friends,
Herewith some rarities, flowering last Sunday during a rare moment of sunshine:
Crocus biflorus ssp. artvinensis and 2 forms of Crocus michelsonii.
Hendrik
Rik,
Michelsonii - correctly 'Odissey'
Superb artvinensis!
Janis
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Wim,
The laevigatus is very late though isn't it ??
Luc,
the laevigatus grows outside so maybe it's late because of the cold weather we had the last month. I have some other laevigatus that are just showing buds so its isn't my last flowering laevigatus.
According to Brian Mathew, the flowering season for C. laevigatus extends from October to March. Very late flowering ones occur in the Cyclades & they retain this habit in cultivation.
I pictured last spring in Kew C. laevigatus in full bloom in March. It was from Cyclades, Isle of Naxos, originally collected by Brian Mathew.
Janis
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Anne , not only beautiful pictures but also great plants.They look very healthy and it looks that they are grown hard .I think so because they are very squat ...
How you succeed ?
Kris,
They have just suddenly emerged in the last 4 days since temperature is above freezing. They may get much taller if it gets very warm. They are in a greenhouse kept above -2C, with the door left open as much as possible. This form of C. baytopiorum is easy to grow, so I take no credit for it!
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Hi Anne, here's mine today, easily the neatest and best of the forms I have!
Alex
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Kris,
I grow the following species outside:Crocus abantensis-Crocus alatavicus-Crocus antalyensis ‘Sky Blue’
Crocus banaticus-Crocus chrysanthus ‘Sunspot’-Crocus chrysanthus ‘Uschak Orange’-Crocus dalmaticus ‘Petrovac’-Crocus flavus ssp. flavus-Crocus fleischeri-Crocus fleischeri ‘Gulek Pass’-Crocus gargaricus herbertii-Crocus goulimyi-Crocus hadriaticus-Crocus korolkowii-Crocus kotschyanus-Crocus laevigatus
Crocus longiflorus-Crocus niveus-Crocus nudiflorus-Crocus pallassii-Crocus sieberi ‘Tricolor’
Crocus veluchensis_Crocus vernus ssp. vernus var. heuffelianus ‘Carpathian wonder’
some of them with more success then others. I grow the ones that like a dry summer rest against a south facing wall in a very sandy soilmix which get covered in summer.
Thanks Wim , want to try some species in the garden in the future and so we have an idea what is maybe good to try .
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One Crocus from me and ex Janis. Another foggy day outside but just a glimpse of sun to take a couple of photos
Michael Hoog's Memory
korolkowii - I gave one away last year but to who?
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Mark, your photos are superb of two lovely crocuses - who was Michael Hoog? A wonderful crocus to remember him by.....bred by you?
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Alex, glad they are doing well for you, my narcissi have lots of buds!
Mark, they are super photos of these crocuses.
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Thanks Anne and Robin. If only Crocus could be twin scaled. The cream korolkowii wouldnt need it. My darker apricot coloured form died in the summer
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Mark, your photos are superb of two lovely crocuses - who was Michael Hoog? A wonderful crocus to remember him by.....bred by you?
Michael Hoog was the last (I think) member of the Hoog family to be associated with the famous Dutch firm of van Tubergen.
The crocus - a form of C. sieberi - was selected & named by Janis Ruksans.
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Thanks for your reply, Gerry, it is always interesting to find out about how plants were named after people and their contributions to the plant world. Having Googled Michael Hoog I found some wonderful old photos related to him and his family:
http://www.jcstoffels.nl/Fotogalerie.htm
...and the references to him in Janis's great book, 'Buried Treasure'.
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Interesting photos Robin. I see one of them includes a young Antoine Hoog who is now quite famous in the bulb world as a collector & supplier. He carries on the family tradition but from Brittany rather than the Netherlands.
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One Crocus from me and ex Janis. Another foggy day outside but just a glimpse of sun to take a couple of photos
Michael Hoog's Memory
korolkowii - I gave one away last year but to who?
Hi Mark,
the secondcrocus -is this a "Snow Leopard"?
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Seems an age since I had a Crocus in flower so here is C. gargaricus ssp. herbertii after a spell on the kitchen window sill.
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"is this a "Snow Leopard"?"
Sorry I dont know. It came supplied as something else. Makes a change for the usual ::)
Crocus sieberi Michael Hoog's memory
Crocus paschei
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David,
nice crocus. I lost mine in winter 2008/2009 - have replenished gap in autuum - new attempt. ::)
Mark,
excellent photographs of beautiful croci. Your creamish white C. korolkowii is resembles cv. Snow Leopard, it was my first tought too.
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David, attractive gargaricus, shows the many uses of the windowsill also! ;) :D
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David, attractive gargaricus, shows the many uses of the windowsill also! ;) :D
Thanks Armin and Chris. It was only a couple of hours on the window sill Chris whilst the Boss was out :P
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Armin I'll put a label in my pot today, Thanks
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Good Crocus' David and Mark ! 8)
The season seems to be getting on it's way. I also have "Michael Hoog's memory" Mark, it should be opening in the next couple of days.
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David, what the eye don't see, the Mrs won't grieve!!
Luc, will look forward to seeing your first crocus of 2010.
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he isnt the only one who gets grief for settings pots on the windowsill, leaving mess or water marks. Who cares anyway the options are hear all say nothing or say smell this beauty
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Fellows, I feel I have to point out that it is perfectly possible to sit a pot on a windowsill with out any danger of mess or watermarks.....it is only necessary to use a saucer......
[attach=1]
............."simples" !
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A couple of Crocus in my Access frame. The first is Crocus olivieri, and I would like confirmation of the identity of the second (4 shots)- I think it is Crocus sieberi.
Would also like an identity for the last Crocus - Crocus sieberi? Will try to take a picture when the flower is open, but that needs sun :)
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korolkowii - I gave one away last year but to who?
You promissed one for me, but I'm still waiting... ;D outside at this moment minus 23 C :'(
Janis
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We were -23C on Monday morning and -20C this morning- hopefully the cold weather is retreating and the warmth will reach you soon up there.
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OK Janis when I have 3 corms again you'll get one
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Mark, your photos are superb of two lovely crocuses - who was Michael Hoog? A wonderful crocus to remember him by.....bred by you?
Michael Hoog was great my friend. He was one of last owners of famous Van Tubergen company in Holland when this company grew bulbs by themselves. It was best source of rare and unusual bulbs. When Hoog's family decided to sell company (and name), Michael seperated from family with rarest stocks in his own very small nursery. I met him in Moscow, during bulb conference in 1971. Soon after that I lost my job for "unsanctioned contacts with foreigen person" (I worked then in National Botanic garden). But it didn't broke our friendship. I got this Crocus from Michael shortly before he died under name C. robertianus, but it turned to be excellent and unusual C. atticus form. It is excellent increaser and after Michaels death I named it in his honor as 'Michaels Hoog Memory'. By the way - van Tubergens company introduced many Central Asian tulips, a lot of so named C. chrysanthus cv. etc. etc. Now his job is continued by his elder son Antoine (now living and growing rare bulbs in France).
Janis
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Fellows, I feel I have to point out that it is perfectly possible to sit a pot on a windowsill with out any danger of mess or watermarks.....it is only necessary to use a saucer......
(Attachment Link)
............."simples" !
Ah! but I wasn't thinking about only one pot, I was thinking about lots :o
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Good grief! ::) You need one of those long tray thingies you can get from garden centres to put window boxes on. Sorted.
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THanks for the information Janis
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Janis, what an amazing story of friendship and passion that led to your naming of the crocus 'Michael Hoog's Memory'...thank you for explaining how it all came about, adding an extra dimension to the enjoyment of admiring this beauty.
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Thank you Janis. Here the wether is grey but not cold these days. Two forms of Crocus chrysanthus, sieberi Hubert Edelsten (Do you know who is this person, Janis ?)
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Crocus biflorus adamii and in the garden as usual, Crocus imperati De Jager
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I think Hubert Edelsten was a friend of E A Bowles the raiser of this supposed hybrid between C sieberi sieberi and C sieberi atticus.
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Thank you Tony
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Thank you Janis. Here the wether is grey but not cold these days. Two forms of Crocus chrysanthus, sieberi Hubert Edelsten (Do you know who is this person, Janis ?)
Crocus xsieberi 'Hubert Edelsten' is hybrid raised by Mr. Hubert D. Mc. Edelsten. He got 2 seedlings crossing Cretan C. sieberi with Greek C. atticus (I regard both as different species, separating Cretan plants from mainland plants, respectively I'm rising status of subsp. atticus). One of them was named 'Hubert Edelsten' and it got FCC in 1924. The later seedling he named 'Lingwood Beauty', it was larger and more richly banded, but I didn't hear about its growing somewhere now. It is not listed in International Register. I don't know profession (occupation) of Mr. Edelsten, sorry.
We had coldest night during all records for 27th January.
Janis
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Some more information on Mr Edelsten from the collections information section of the Natural History Museum: http://www.nhm.ac.uk/ :
"Hubert McDonald Edelsten (1877-1959) was a keen Lepidopterist and contributed hundreds of notes and articles to "The Entomologist". During the First World War he served in the Royal Naval Air Ambulance Service. After the War he became Secretary to the Committee for the Protection of British Insects. In 1939 he joined the Ministry of Agriculture and was concerned with the entomology of food crops. This work included the study of the Colorado Beetle. Publications included an account of the Lepidoptera of Cambridgeshire (with John Fryer) in the Victoria County History of Cambridgeshire and the Isle of Ely, Vol.1. (1938) and a revision of Richard South's The Moths of the British Isles (1939). Edelsten was an Honorary Fellow of the Royal Entomological Society of London and an Associate in charge of British Lepidoptera at The Natural History Museum, London.
Hubert McDonald Edelsten's collection of 780 Lepidoptera specimens and 208 Odonata specimens was presented by his daughter to The Natural History Museum, London."
Also, from the 2003 archives of the Pacific Bulb Society: Sat Feb 8 2003 : Jim Waddick made mention that he thought the sister seedling to C. 'Hubert Edelsten', might still be in cultivation at that time. This is the one named 'Lingwood Beauty'
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Lost label - is this plant too orange to be chrysanthus Fuscotinctus
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Some more of korolkowii Snow Leopard. One petal has an anther on it's side complete with pollen
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Janis and Maggi, very thank you for these interesting details of the H.Edelsten's life.
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Very nice Mark
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Where is Thomas Hubi this Crocus season?
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Some crocus I brought intop the kitchen in order to get them to open today. It is cold and has been so dark for the last five days we have had the light on in the house all day. They are elongating in the plunge and falling over without ever having opened.
Three different clones of Crocus chrysanthus
Crocus fleischeri
Two clones of Crocus olivieri
A Crocus hybrid raised from seed from an original plant of Crocus biflorus ssp pulchriclor crossed with Crocus chrysanthus.
Crocus biflorus pulchricolor a white form
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Great selection Tony. chrysanthus with striped tubes are betterlooking than those with solid coloured tubes - to me anyway
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Wonderful Tony !
All beautiful - C. fleischeri is my favourite though !
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Wonderful Tony !
All beautiful - C. fleischeri is my favourite though !
Mine too - a class of it's own 8)
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Where is Thomas Hubi this Crocus season?
He's always here, Mark. It's just, that you can't see him 8)
Crocus season is still far away here in my garden, we have had frost and snow
for more than 4 weeks now and still no end in sight.
Your yellow crocus can't be 'Fuscotinctus' which has more feathering. I'm not sure
if this is a chrysanthus at all. Can also be angustifolius. A photo from the inside,
the leaves and, most important of the corm would be a great help for ID.
Also I'm not sure if your white korolkowii is the true 'Snow Leopard'. I remember that
someone who grows it told me, that it hasn't increased for many years - yours seems
to be a good grower.....
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I am with Thomas on Marks whitish Crocus korolkowii. It is not 'Snow Leopard'. I had this plant from John Grimshaw about 10 years ago. Pictures below it is clearly different. Just as it threatened to increase it died. :'(
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Good grief, that "was" a beauty Tony - too bad you lost it... :(
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Mark's and Tony's are both beautiful, but I also love the C. fleischeri - I don't think mine have that nice dark streak on the outside, but they are not in flower yet.
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There is a photo of John Grimshaw's 'Snow Leopard' in David Stephens' article on crocus in the AGS Bull. 66, no 3 (Sept 1998). It is described as looking like C. alatavicus with a purple throat (visible in Tony's photo). Mark's plant does not look like this.
David also refers to a plant received as C. korolkowii 'Albus which is said to look like a cross between C. korolkowii & C. michelsonii.
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Great photos from all :o
down here two species are flowering C. corsicus and C.vitellinus.
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Oron - according to Mathew, the throat of C. corsicus is white or lilac. Your plants seems to have a yellowish throat which seems to be characteristic of many of the plants currently available in the trade as C. corsicus. Do your plants have a wild or commercial origin?
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TonyG,
what a stunner the real "Snow Leopard" - a pity it died. :'(
Mark,
when I wrote "it resembles cv. "Snow Leopard"" I had a picture from Paul Christian webside in mind.
Now it is sold as C. korolkowii albus but still name (Snow Leopard) is kept in brackets... >:( Sorry for misleading you.
But we never stop learning thanks to the forum members :D
TonyW,
your C. chrysanthus CR339 is very beautiful, also C. fleischeri. 8)
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Oron - according to Mathew, the throat of C. corsicus is white or lilac. Your plants seems to have a yellowish throat which seems to be characteristic of many of the plants currently available in the trade as C. corsicus. Do your plants have a wild or commercial origin?
Gerry thanks,
I think you are right,
I have received these as small corms a few years ago, unfortunately i do not have any information regarding their origin.
Maybe its time someone from the forum will go to Corsica to photograph the wild populations of corsicus and minimus...
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OK a new label for my korolkowii today. Tony G your plant was lovely.
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A couple of Crocus sieberi ssp sieberi from Omalos Crete. In bud yesterday and now open having been brought indoors for a bit of warmth.
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Stunning flowers Melvyn !! :o :o :o
Definitely my favourites in the Crocus family !
If only I could get hold of some seed ?? :(
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This is my commercial 'corsicus'. I have about 20 corms of corsicus and imperati and all are imperati
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Its a lovely bulb Melvyn,a few weeks earlier than mine I think. I see mine flowered on 27th Feb last year.
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Melvin, they are gorgeous, no 2 being my favourite.
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Lovely stuff all.
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Definitely a good find.
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There is a photo of John Grimshaw's 'Snow Leopard' in David Stephens' article on crocus in the AGS Bull. 66, no 3 (Sept 1998). It is described as looking like C. alatavicus with a purple throat (visible in Tony's photo). Mark's plant does not look like this.
David also refers to a plant received as C. korolkowii 'Albus which is said to look like a cross between C. korolkowii & C. michelsonii.
There are two white korolkowii rarely available. One is John's 'Snow Leopard' with blue throat (I had similar seedling, lost in harsh winter), another Czech selection with pure white flower. Both are rare mutations of C. korolkowii, not hybrids.
Janis
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Great photos from all :o
down here two species are flowering C. corsicus and C.vitellinus.
Excellent vitellinus Oron. Very tipical shape of petals.
With corsicus sometimes is problems with identification for the slightly yellow throat. May be hybrids as typical pure corsicus must to have pure white throat. I have some with light yellowish throat, but they are grown under ? mark. Yours are very beautifull, really throat is white with light yellowish blotch, or my eys are wrong?
Janis
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Sorry Janis it is reflected light on the bend of the petals
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Great photos from all :o
down here two species are flowering C. corsicus and C.vitellinus.
Excellent vitellinus Oron. Very tipical shape of petals.
With corsicus sometimes is problems with identification for the slightly yellow throat. May be hybrids as typical pure corsicus must to have pure white throat. I have some with light yellowish throat, but they are grown under ? mark. Yours are very beautifull, really throat is white with light yellowish blotch, or my eyes are wrong?
Janis
That's what I thought...very light yellowish throat ......at first I thought white throat with fallen pollen but in close up it seems v. light yellow......... close-ups taken from Oron's pix....
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
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True C. corsicus collected on Corsica in attachmnents.
Janis
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Just got picture named as Crocus tauricus from my Czech friend. I don't know origin of corm (not from me), but it looks quite doubtful
- by color and shape of flower
- by color of leaves (in tauricus greyish/bluish green
But most important why I'm publishing this picture - it shows very heavy virus infection. Give attention to leaves. Check your stocks by this feature, too.
Janis
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16-33A Crocus corsicus Corsica -06.JPG - very nice
Some of my Crocus leves have yellow tips. Is this frost damage?
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Great photos from all :o
down here two species are flowering C. corsicus and C.vitellinus.
Excellent vitellinus Oron. Very tipical shape of petals.
With corsicus sometimes is problems with identification for the slightly yellow throat. May be hybrids as typical pure corsicus must to have pure white throat. I have some with light yellowish throat, but they are grown under ? mark. Yours are very beautifull, really throat is white with light yellowish blotch, or my eys are wrong?
Janis
Janis
Thank you for showing the true to type form which seems much more variable in color and has darker veins, it is quite different from what I have, although it not as yellow throat as Mark's.
Any way now I have a present to give..... ;)
Melvyn,
your sieberi is superb, definitely one of the species that are beautiful to see when aren't completely open.
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Here's what I have as Crocus corsicus, my bulbs originally from Jane McGary. Had to find some pics from previous years, we still have a foot (30 cm) of snow even though it poured rain earlier this week, reducing the 2' (60 cm) snow layer in half. Right now it's snowing again.
From the overhead view, it looks like my plants also show a yellow center. Janis, the true forms you show are exquisite. Regardless if mine are hybrids, the veining on the outside is eye-catching and it has been a good reliable bloomer outside.
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Here's what I have as Crocus corsicus, my bulbs originally from Jane McGary. Had to find some pics from previous years, we still have a foot (30 cm) of snow even though it poured rain earlier this week, reducing the 2' (60 cm) snow layer in half. Right now it's snowing again.
From the overhead view, it looks like my plants also show a yellow center. Janis, the true forms you show are exquisite. Regardless if mine are hybrids, the veining on the outside is eye-catching and it has been a good reliable bloomer outside.
I'm not certain that they are hybrids, I only suppose that they could be, but variability in crocuses is so great. I got few with yellow in throat and decided that they are not true (pure). They were nursery grown. After that I got plants originally collected on Corsica, and they really have pure white throat, they well responds to Maw, Bowles and Mathew descriptions.
Here minor warming (minus 11C) and snowstorm. My house has 1 m thick walls and now 6 week long frost reached inner part. This morning I came to my office and found only +3C in it. Fortunately living flame in fireplace heated it to workable temperature during one hour. Water pipe to home was closed by frost and now I'm bying drinking water. Never before something similar expected.
Janis
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I'm not certain that they are hybrids, I only suppose that they could be, but variability in crocuses is so great. I got few with yellow in throat and decided that they are not true (pure). They were nursery grown. After that I got plants originally collected on Corsica, and they really have pure white throat, they well responds to Maw, Bowles and Mathew descriptions.
I think we had a similar discussion in the Spring of last year.
There seem to be a number of forms around. Plants I obtained in the trade about 3 years ago are not yet in flower but as I remember are very similar to those pictured by Oron & rather less yellow in the throat than those pictured by Mark. I assume they are hybrids (with C. imperatii?) but, as you say Janis, given the variability of crocus, who knows?
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Melvyn, Very nice Sieberi from Omalos,mine are not in bud yet. See you on 6th,Jim
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Stunning flowers Melvyn !! :o :o :o
Definitely my favourites in the Crocus family !
If only I could get hold of some seed ?? :(
Lesley generously offered seed a year or so ago, collected by Marcus Harvey at Kallergi, and some of which is germinating here now. Certainly something to look forward to if they turn out anything like Mervyn's beauties :o
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A few hours of sunshine brought the temperature in the greenhouse up to 16c although it was only 3c outside and it brought out a few more crocus.
Crocus danfordiae this is diminutive,only 2cms high
Crocus cyprius
Crocus biflorus ssp crewii
Crocus chrysanthus very nicely marked
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My danfordiae are out aslo. Such a cute Crocus
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Beautiful pictures from everybody.
Tony, I like your C. biflorus ssp. crewei. In my eyes one of the nicest spring crocus.
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I'll second Armin on that one, the ssp. crewii is a stunning biflorus.
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I saw some Crocus actually open today, but by the time I got round to taking pictures they'd almost shut again...oh,well...
In any case, Crocus gargaricus ssp. gargaricus and C. cvijicii.
Alex
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Crocus gargaricus is always among the earliest Crocus to bloom, right on the heels of C. vitellinus, but we're talking about late March in this part of the world. I love how the flowers just poke through the ground nearly stemless, little golden dumplings at ground level.
Photo 1 - flowers emerging on 3-22-2008.
Photo 2 - one week later, it snowed! The flowers were unfazed.
Photo 3 - in full flower, on 3-27-2009.
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last photo - brilliant!
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Instant sunshine isn't it? :D I like the little danfordiaes too.
We also had a few hours of sun which have opened some more flowers. Most of the C. baytopiorum are out now.
C. korolkowii Dark Throat is just opening, and two lovely flowers of Crocus biflorus ssp nubigena (thank you Thomas!).
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Lovely crocuses everyone. The sun shone here today. First time I've had the camera out since January 18th.
Crocus korolkowii was under water two weeks ago. I took it from the frame to the greenhouse yesterday when the snow started so I could see the flowers open today.
Crocus chrysanthus 'Sunspot' has been in the greenhouse all winter. I was surprised when the 4 flowers opened today to see one had 8 petals.
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Stupendous, a real adrenaline rush to see such beautiful crocuses in flower, thanks to everyone :)
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Crocus chrysanthus 'Sunspot' has been in the greenhouse all winter.
Does anyone know if the black stigma of chrysanthus 'Sunspot' can temporarily revert to normal orange-yellow for a season and then back to black again? One of the two corms I had from Pottertons last autumn has produced flowers with orange-yellow stigmas, and the other the expected black stigmas. Don't want to complain if it's just a temporary reversion and will have black stigmas next year.
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Roma, two beauties there, I need a sunspot :D
And Anne, C. baytopiorum is certainly among the most exquisite crocus species ever, your pot full is glorious!
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Martin my Sunspots are always black
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Crocus chrysanthus 'Sunspot' has been in the greenhouse all winter.
Does anyone know if the black stigma of chrysanthus 'Sunspot' can temporarily revert to normal orange-yellow for a season and then back to black again? One of the two corms I had from Pottertons last autumn has produced flowers with orange-yellow stigmas, and the other the expected black stigmas. Don't want to complain if it's just a temporary reversion and will have black stigmas next year.
No. I never noted this although have this cv. for ~ 10 years. It certainly is mix in stock.
Janis
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Thanks Mark and Janis. That's what I thought the answer would be. I was just hoping...
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A bit later than usual, Crocus baytopiorum is flowering now and is the first one in the frame, even earlier than C. versicolor.
It's really one of my favourite one with it's pale blue lines.
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Fred, superb looking baytopiorums, I'm guessing you've had some sun to open them up!!
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:'( mine don't flower :'(
stunning photo well done
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;D I've just putted them under artificial light in the greenhouse as I was waiting for their opening for 5 ( cloudy ) days ???
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;D I've just putted them under artificial light in the greenhouse as I was waiting for their opening for 5 ( cloudy ) days ???
Regarding C. baytopiorum, is the reflexed shape of the flower typical? Or does this happen more because of soft conditions in a frame or under lights, or is it typical at late anthesis? In Anne's photo, while obviously younger opening blooms, they are erect and goblet shaped.
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I've noticed that my clone is allways opening this way when in full sun previous years.
Goblet shape was only when not enough light to fully open.
But may be all the clones doesn't react as mine ??
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Wonderful Crocus everyone !!
Two days o the Forum and I have a tremendous amounts of posts to catch up... really hard work ! ;D
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Fred, I'm shocked, artificial lights..... :o :o ;)
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We never see Crocus in the wild behave quite like that- so maybe it is a combination of the sunlight as well as heat of a greenhouse?
I imagine it would be detrimental in the wild- the poor bees would keep falling off! ::)
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We never see Crocus in the wild behave quite like that- so maybe it is a combination of the sunlight as well as heat of a greenhouse?
I imagine it would be detrimental in the wild- the poor bees would keep falling off! ::)
High temperature + too dry air.
Janis
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Today we had here in Belgium a lot of sun, and look what's flowering today in my alpine house: Crocus biflorus ssp. nubigena, one of my great favourites. Enjoy the black anthers!
Hendrik
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Sunshine today so some crocus in bloom.
Crocus baytopiorum in sun.
Crocus baytopiorum in shade,
Crocus flavus
Crocus fleischer
Crocus imperatii De Jager
Crocus laevigatus
Crocus sieberi subsp atticus
Crocus tommasinianus CEH534
Crocus uschak orange.
Crocus vernus subsp vernus heuffelianus (not true,possible hyb)
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hiMichael, you have been quiet recently. The sieberi I sent you must be flowering by now?
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We never see Crocus in the wild behave quite like that- so maybe it is a combination of the sunlight as well as heat of a greenhouse?
I imagine it would be detrimental in the wild- the poor bees would keep falling off! ::)
May be the heat but in fact, every year with full sun and 'warm january day' i get the same shape.
Goblet shape is only with shade.
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hiMichael, you have been quiet recently. The sieberi I sent you must be flowering by now?
Don't know Mark, I will look for it tomorrow.
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We never see Crocus in the wild behave quite like that- so maybe it is a combination of the sunlight as well as heat of a greenhouse?
I imagine it would be detrimental in the wild- the poor bees would keep falling off! ::)
May be the heat but in fact, every year with full sun and 'warm january day' i get the same shape.
Goblet shape is only with shade.
Fred I think also like Janis whenever I take any crocus inside to take picture, allways happens same shape,
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Michael, another lovely sequence of flowers, the C.fleischeri is my fav from your elegant bunch!
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Hendrik,
indeed your C. biflorus ssp. nubigena are stunning! 8)
Any experience to please the specis in the open garden?
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Hendrik,
Do you know original location of your nubigena came?
My nubigena has allways black spot in throat which I can not see in yours! :-\
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Sunshine today so some crocus in bloom.
Crocus baytopiorum in sun.
Crocus baytopiorum in shade,
Crocus flavus
Crocus fleischer
Crocus imperatii De Jager
Crocus laevigatus
Crocus sieberi subsp atticus
Crocus tommasinianus CEH534
Crocus uschak orange.
Crocus vernus subsp vernus heuffelianus (not true,possible hyb)
Michael, your last crocus is possible Cr.vernus 'Yalta' ( vernus x tommasinianus ),
several trader offered this form under the name heuffelianus.
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MIchael, I'm with Dirk, 'Yalta' or probably 'Haarlem Gem'
I had the same plants from Dix years ago, when I ordered heuffelianus.
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Does anyone know if the black stigma of chrysanthus 'Sunspot' can temporarily revert to normal orange-yellow for a season and then back to black again? One of the two corms I had from Pottertons last autumn has produced flowers with orange-yellow stigmas, and the other the expected black stigmas. Don't want to complain if it's just a temporary reversion and will have black stigmas next year.
Martin I also had a corm with non-black stigmas in 2009, but the seller replaced it last autumn.
Now i'm hoping that I will have the true plant after the snow is gone.
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Thanks folks,it has now been consigned to the crocus bed in the garden and the label changed to Yalta.