Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: partisangardener on December 20, 2009, 11:44:44 AM
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It is a bit early or late 8) ;D
Has anybody this plant in his garden. I found it in southern France (an old abandoned garden) and it grew for many years in my old garden. Since I have moved, I have given most of it away but kept a clump for myself. It multiplies quite good vegetative, but never sets seeds. I probably have only one clone.
Is there anybody who might have another clone to swap.
I add some pictures including one of a flower from the common one many years in my old garden grown compaired with the wild one.
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I am not sure if it is any help, but most old gardens here including ours have the blue form. It also does not appear to seet seed. I haven't seen albino forms here yet.
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I have the blue form found in South France along a road. Nice white form indeed
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Doninique
Does it set seed?
I found it late in spring with no flowers, even did not know what it was. It resembled hyacinths to me, but had small bulbs and whole clumps of it. So I took one very little clump with me to find out. 8)
I probably would not find this garden again after all this years, apart from the not very unlikely chance that it does not exist anymore.
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I take it 2 years ago -blooming season) and has not flowered last spring. Perhaps next ! I don't know if it would make seeds ?Dom
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If You have just one plant I fear not. :-\
Mine was flowering the first year. Always one flowering stem per bulb. Rarely a very small bulb might not give a flower. I must watch next season if at all.
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Thanks Mark
Seems to be without any white form, or did I miss anything, apart from rarely white mentioned.
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My plant is very pale pink
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So nobody has a white one?
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Your is possibly early. Mine flowered in March last year
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My pictures are from early April 2009. ;D 8)
Yours is quite different apart from the colour. More like the pink flower in my comparing picture.
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This is Hyacinthus orientalis ssp chionophyllus. I cannot see any difference from ssp orientalis which I also grow. This was discused earlier in the year.
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Axel
In my opinion your white Hycinthus is not a wild form but an old garden cultivar.
These cultivars when left in the garden produce new bulbs but they loose their vigor and turn back to their original, wildy appearance accept the large leaves that are unproportional to the inflorescence.
The blue and white cultivars can live for many years in the garden [under the right conditions], while the other colors usually die after a few years.
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This is Hyacinthus orientalis ssp chionophyllus. I cannot see any difference from ssp orientalis which I also grow. This was discused earlier in the year.
Tony
these turquoise spots on the tube are typical to this ssp. but the more evident differences are the leaves, which are much wider in ssp. chionophyllus and the lobes are the same length as the tube, while in ssp orientalis they are shorter.
It might be that under the conditions you grow them leaves don't show difference due to lack of sun, but in their natural habitat it is quite easy to notice it.
Beautiful plant!!!
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Tony the roman hyacinth is an old cultivar (historical hence the name). Rarely found in gardens more in the wild now in. Italy, France and other countries.
In my picture is a flower of the type compaired with the Roman I think you are talking about. This one (pink)is out of a Garden from an old Lady I have it now for more than 15 years (I don't know how long they were grown there. I had blue ones and white ones too. They rarely made new bulbs, if at all. The inflorescence was smaller more spaced, less flowers, but the size of the single flower is double of the roman H. I try to make better pictures of the plant next season.
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Oron
I have seen both ssp in the wild and I see minor differences explained by being within normal limits of variability. It is one where the splitters have been at work.
I think this is another one where we have to agree to disagree!
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Tony
I agree to disagree ;)
Look at this one and tell me they look the same: color, length of lobes and width of leaves.
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Axel
Your pink form might be 'Rosalie', an old, early flowering, pink cultivar.
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The Roman Hyacinths we have in the garden here are quite different from what I have grown as H.o.chionophyllus. They also look different to the one pictured in Philips and Rix. They really aren't much to look at and they lack the charm of the wild subspecies, but I suppose represent a selection that was all that was available before the large Dutch hybrids. Most gardens here have them because like Tulips and Madonna Lilies they were favourites of the Ottomans, in fact the Bulgarian word for Hyacinth (and indeed Crocus and Tulip) are Turkish loan words. I suppose they were brought here historically by the Ottomans and then cultivated by their subjects.
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Oron
we seem to have moved of the original subject but can you identify which ssp each of these is?
I agree yours looks different but then so do you and I.
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Tony
By the flowers [since the leaves of the second are missing], i would say the first is ssp. orientalis and the second ssp. chionophyllus.
I agree yours looks different but then so do you and I.
So according to this all Galanthus for example are one species too...
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So according to this all Galanthus for example are one species too...
AT LAST! Someone is finally getting my message!! Hurrah! Tomorrow the world!! ;D
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;D ;D ;D
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Tony
By the flowers [since the leaves of the second are missing], i would say the first is ssp. orientalis and the second ssp. chionophyllus.
I agree yours looks different but then so do you and I.
So according to this all Galanthus for example are one species too...
Oron
I give in you win.
However we are not saying they are different species but dividing them into ssp on some minor botanical differences which if numerous specimens were examined would prove to be of no importance.I have no comments on galanthus but the numerous new crocus and narcissus species is another matter
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So according to this all Galanthus for example are one species too...
AT LAST! Someone is finally getting my message!! Hurrah! Tomorrow the world!! ;D
The Taxonomic Orthodoxy Department of the Thought Police would like a word with you.
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Tony
I wish i could express my self better in English...
It is not a mater of winning,
I think it is because i see the differences and out of respect to the researchers who studied the plants in the field or in the herbarium.
I do not always agree with them but i find it positive to doubt things some times like we do now here.
I totally agree with you regarding many new species or forms that appear often and i do not give importance to names given to new forms just because they have curly leaves or a darker color, they do not have any botanical or scientific importance only as a new object for collectors.
The two ssp mentioned here are well documented based on large populations and not upon one or two plants that appeared occasionally.
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A question (and perhaps a complaint):
In this thread I've seen the word "wild" used when the correct term would seem to be "feral".
My understanding is that there is a wild form of H. orientalis. The so-called Roman hyacinths are selections from it, not very different, but nonetheless cultivated plants. The Roman hyacinths are now very scarce in cultivation, evidently entirely out of commerce in spite of their sweet scent. Some of us have an interest in old cultivated plants that have largely disappeared, so I would ask those contributing to this thread to distinguish between the true wild form and the ancient cultivated forms gone feral.
We have a similar situation here in Victoria: the landscape abounds with feral daffodils, many of which are ancient cultivars such as 'Conspicuus'. For sure, since the genus Narcissus is not native to North America, nearly all "wild" daffodils here are really cultivars gone feral. (There are a very few exceptions where imaginative gardeners have eased some of the smaller species such as N. bulbocodium and N. cyclamineus into cracks in rock outcrops where they survive and may even seed.)
Another similar situation appertains to certain "wild" tulips found in southern France. A number of these have been given botanical names, but they are probably descended from cultivated tulips and hence are properly feral, not wild.
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Thank You very much Rodger your text should be highlighted with thunder. If I missuse it, only because I did not know the right expression, sorry. Educating forum. ;D 8)
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My feral roman hyacinth is out again. Some blue ones are planted nearby. Nobody had the white ones, not even seen. Another year another chance. ;D
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Tony your blue flowered plant is very nice.
Axel maybe you have a new cultivar/selection
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The garden I found it was by a ruin of a farmhouse. Originally built approximately 19th century. There where few gardenplants left: some narcissus, a few tulips and this hyacinth (quite a lot)between brambles and urtica and sambucus.
I don't belief this will be a "new" selection by human standards. I did not identify them there as hyacinths and took only one small clump for later identification. There were only leafs at this time.
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That's the way they are looking today. In the background a plant of the blue variation I bought from netherlands. I will try to cross them.
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Axel, the Roman Hyacinth we have in the garden here are not quite ready for pictures, but this is onbe we found in an old rubbish tip near a park in central Bulgaria. It is like ours,though possibla little more robust.
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Now they are in bloom again. I hope the pictures are this time better to proof that this is no ordinary domestic form. The other flower (blue) is from a garden form which grew some years outside and developed some original features. To show the size I placed a meter (cm) in the picture.
The last blue one is a specimen I bought as the wild form of orientalis. It is a bit stronger and later flowering (maybe due to first flowering, planted autumn last year ).
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Axel, the ones we have in the garden are flowering now. They look to be the same as yours.
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I think mine are more diminutive. Especially the leafs are a lot smaller. Could you please place some kind of scale beside a flower.
They flower above the leafs.
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The stems on the ones here will elongate over the next few days. I will try to measure them tomorrow.
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To show the size of the plant