Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Regelian on December 12, 2009, 06:24:43 PM
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Here is a general question. I've always had plenty of seedlings in my garden from C. coum and C. hederafolium, but have never attempted to collect seed from either. When is the seed typically ready to harvest and how many seeds are in a typical capsule? Are there any tricks to 'capturing' the seed? I have taken a good look at a still green capsule and find only a single seed. Can these be harvested unripe and ripened off the plant? How is seed best stored?
Other than trying a few pots, I want to be able to send seed to the exchange next season. I've added a few more species to the collection this season, such as C. graecum, C. trochopterum and another I can't recall. Are most species similar in seed production?
Thanks,
Jamie
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The seeds of C.hederifolium ripened in my Garden (South Germany Bayreuth 6a) about July, some even August.
I tried to save seeds with paper teabags. It didn't work. The Blackbirds or the wind took them away.
Number of seeds as far I collected them in time was more than 6 up to approximately a dozen. I collected only open capsules.
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Axel, you might find it easier to pick the capsules once they become soft but are still intact. Then bring them indoors to dry out fully and split, for example loosely wrapped in a piece of kitchen towel (labelled!) on a warm windowsill. After a few days the seeds can be gathered easily and without loss.
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Here is a general question. I've always had plenty of seedlings in my garden from C. coum and C. hederafolium, but have never attempted to collect seed from either. When is the seed typically ready to harvest and how many seeds are in a typical capsule? Are there any tricks to 'capturing' the seed? I have taken a good look at a still green capsule and find only a single seed. Can these be harvested unripe and ripened off the plant? How is seed best stored?
Other than trying a few pots, I want to be able to send seed to the exchange next season. I've added a few more species to the collection this season, such as C. graecum, C. trochopterum and another I can't recall. Are most species similar in seed production?
Thanks, Jamie
Jamie, most species are similar in that the seeds ripen in mid to late summer, no matter what their flowering time. So hederifolium (and other autumn species) take almost a year to ripen, whereas repandum (and other late spring species) take a much shorter time. They nearly all have pedicels that spiral the fruit to the ground where they ripen (persicum doesn't do this). The fruits are quite firm to touch, test them between finger and thumb. As Ashley says, when they slightly "give" on squeezing means they are ripe. At this stage before they have dehisced (split open) the whole pod can safely be removed and ripened indoors in a tray. But I often do remove the fruits a little before this stage and put the pods in a warm place. The seeds are white when unripe, and turn orange/brown when ripe.
The seed pods are sticky to handle at the unripe stage and I usually push the seeds out of the sticky pod to dry off, in a warm place, in an open saucer or similar. I then store in paper envelopes as they are often still sticky and they easily dry off.
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Here's some pictures to illustrate the story
Cyc seed1 Unripe C hederifolium fruits on the plant in July
Cyc seed2 Seed pods taken off the plant to ripen indoors
Cyc seed3 Close up of seed pod dehiscing (this is C persicum)
Cyc seed4 C repandum seed drying
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Cyc seed5 Squeezing the pod from the end to eject the seed
Cyc seed6 Sticky seed
Cyc seed7 Dry seed
Cyc seed8 Some non-viable seed here (unusual!)
Cyc seed9 how I transfer seed into paper envelopes, using a card scoop
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And storage
The first shows manilla envelopes, as sold for wages or dinner money. I like these for storage as the manilla will absorb any stickiness and I reuse them year after year. They are stored in these until I need to send them to the seed exchanges and then I transfer them into glassine envelopes, shown in the second picture
And the last picture shows what happens when you don't collect the seed - the seed is dispersing on top of the parent tuber, which is seen coming into growth in August.
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And a picture taken last week, to show how the whole situation can get out of hand. Try collecting the seed off this lot :-[
And see what happens when you don't ::) ::)
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Thank you, Diane and Ashley, for the terrific advice. Great photos, Diane - they explain it all.
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Beautifully explained, Diane. 8)
I'm amazed at just how many pods can be thrown by a single plant. I have a lovely arrowhead type hederifolium (I can dig up a pic if anyone is interested) that is only a few inches wide corm-wise..... it produced a veritable mound of seedpods this year, all of which I notice have dehisced this week. Heavens knows what I am going to do with all those seed. :o :o I'll sow a few, as I would love to see what the seedlings could be like. It is a favourite leaf form of mine, which I think originated from Cyclamen Society seed given to me by a friend (I haven't yet managed to join the Cyc Soc, although I really should do so given my interest in them), and I think it will throw interesting leaves in the seedlings, but there must be hundreds of seeds on it at present, assuming the ants haven't run off with them. It is growing in a 5 inch squat pot and I think the lack of competition had it very happy. Nice pink flowers, but once the leaves died off I could barely believe teh amount of seedpods. I kept meaning to photograph them, but never got around to it. ::) It is the most seedpods I have ever had on a hederifolium, even from ones that were much, much larger than it.
I'm also harvesting heaps of seeds at the moment from the persicum with the perfume, that I mentioned recently in this topic. I'll end up with hundreds of seeds from that one too. :o
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Wow, Diane, what a great presentation! Can't thank you enough. Now, I feel like I know what happens and how to handle the whole affair. I had no idea the seed ripened over such a long period. My Cyclamen are pretty well hidden under other late plants at that time of the year, so I had never observed the pods en masse. It's simply incredible what little wonders we miss in our own gardens.
So, Paul, does that mean you are offering seed of this legendary clone? ;D It's a perfect time to plant in Europe. ::)
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Superb response Diane a well illustrated master class leaving nothing else to say.
That is what I like so much about this forum, the free exchange of advise and information.
That one plant you show with so many seed pods could supply the seed exchanges needs by itself.
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Thank you very much Diane. How clear are these explications ! Thanks more
Dom
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Jamie,
"Legendary" is perhaps over-rating it a tad. I said "I" liked it a lot, but personal preferences are just that, and not necessarily shared by others. May be common as muck to you lot, but it is the only one that I have of it. ;D
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Superb response Diane a well illustrated master class leaving nothing else to say.
Ian, I thought you knew me better than that! There's always more to say on cyclamen ;D ;D
That one plant you show with so many seed pods could supply the seed exchanges needs by itself.
Actually, because I have lots of large plants in the garden (and in pots) I take off as many seedpods as I can see before they ripen - there's always lots I miss, so it's just a control mechanism. There are too many to harvest the lot - so, sorry, many will end up in the bin. There is no shortage of hederifolium seed out there in the exchanges. Notice again the last picture, showing how they colonise when happy. That patch is from my first ever (yes!) hederifolium planted out about 12 years ago. The tubers from the original plant and two of its seedlings that got too big have been removed and gone to the allotment, but the offspring fill the area.
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I agree with the BD... Diane's tutorial is fab ...I've given it its own thread!
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Wouah Diane :D thank you !!!
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That is a great photo blog, Diane, thank you.
I collect some seed but other is just allowed to 'fall' on the ground. What I notice is that this seed produces lots of seedlings many of which rapidly die off. It is almost as if the parent tuber is producing some sort of inhibitor to protect its own growing space.
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paul I would like to see a picture of your arrowhead cyclamen. ;D
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Thanks Diane that was fantastic, a big help for novices like me, step by step and pictures what more could I ask for ::) ( just my seeds to grow now ).
Angie :)
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I agree with the BD... Diane's tutorial is fab ...I've given it its own thread!
Manno! My thread got hi-jacked! :o :o ;D
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Forgive me for adding just a small note, for Jamie's benefit, when you've done everything as directed by Diane, do sow your own fresh seed if you intend to, right away and as fresh as possible. Once cyclamen seed has thoroughly dried out, much seems to lose its viability. Fresh, still moist seed will germinate very freely. Dried seed much less so and often - in my experience - taking at least two years to sprout.
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I agree, Lesley... we always soak older cyclamen seed in warm water with a teeny amount of soap added to plump 'em up!
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I agree with the BD... Diane's tutorial is fab ...I've given it its own thread!
Manno! My thread got hi-jacked! :o :o ;D
I bet you are pleased you started something so useful to others, eh? !! Excellent!! 8)
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I agree, Lesley... we always soak older cyclamen seed in warm water with a teeny amount of soap added to plump 'em up!
I have found that absolutely fresh seed doesn't germinate well, I assume think the sticky stuff is a germination inhibitor. I have no problem germinating most species of dry seed, and the best way is in the warm and in the dark - reminder of this link:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4584.msg123492#msg123492 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4584.msg123492#msg123492)
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Diane,
I discovered the same thing, at least with Cyclamen coum. Seed sown fresh from the pod took much longer to germinate (and a poorer initial germination rate) than seed from the same plant that I left for 2 weeks before sowing. So in the case of my coum at least, allowing it to dry for a couple of weeks was beneficial.
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I agree with the not straight from the pod comments above but what I meant was for seed to be sown fresh as distinct from stored for 6 months or, if possible from the seed exchanges, for southerners at least. By the time we get it from that source, it is so dried that literally, it is almost beyond resurrection. I sow my own at about a week from collection, but usually wash it to remove the sweet sticky stuff beloved by ants.
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I just collected the seed from my little arrowhead cyclamen hederifolium..... there were 51 pods, the majority of which had dehisced all over the surface. I've collected the seed (and a lot of soil and muck at the same time ;D) into a brown paper bag and will sort it later. Not bad for a plant in a 5 inch squat pot. ;)
And I found a pic of the plant I am talking about earlier in the Cyclamen topic (the first pic in the post at the link).....
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2893.msg85251#msg85251
The pic doesn't really do it justice, and I realised that from other people's labelling of "arrowhead", mine wouldn't be called that. The reason I always think of it as an arrowhead is that to me it looks like the shape and facets of an obsidian or stone arrowhead (or spearhead being the larger version). I just love the uniformity of the leaves, although they look better in real life than they do in this pic.
And I think I was right that I am enamoured with it, and everyone else is going to think of it as a fairly normal one for overseas. ::)
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Its beautiful Paul :D
Narrow leaf or arrowhead whatever. I must take pictures of mine, maybe we could swap seeds 8) ;D
At the moment they are covered with snow.
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Axel,
Well you just pop out with a hairdryer, and I'll see you with photos next year. ;D ;D Unless of course it snows again, in which case it might even take longer to melt it all for photos. ;)
I'm glad that someone else likes one of my favourite hederifoliums. 8)
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Paul,
you plant is quite different from any that I grow. The pattern is lovely, but those little crennelations on the leaves are really cool. I've not seen them so nicely rounded, almost like drops. All of my hererafolium have pretty smooth edges in comparison.
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I agree with the BD... Diane's tutorial is fab ...I've given it its own thread!
Manno! My thread got hi-jacked! :o :o ;D
I bet you are pleased you started something so useful to others, eh? !! Excellent!! 8)
Maggi, are you kidding, I' exstatic! I guess I asked the right question for a change. 8). This forum is simply amazing.
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Super report, Diane ... many thanks.
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Paul just the first example of my cyclamen. It is an offspring of a plant I found in Italy Lago di Bolsena.
I found the plants on a buildingsite (former forrest) at the lake itself. There is now only fields and houses. :P
Caterpillars had just shoven the humus about.
This was some twenty years ago. :D Its flowering just like its mother on one of the following pictures; light pink.
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the first seedlings of these plants http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2893.0;attach=182293;image from this year look like this
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I find that the MARKINGS come pretty much true from seed but the SHAPE of the leaves, doesn't. I've several times asked for narrow or arrow-leaved forms of hederifolium from the seed exchanges but never once had a seedling reflecting the name. Eventually I was able to buy some very narrow forms locally. Of course these too were raised from seed so perhaps a proportion do come true or perhaps the ones I had from the exchanges were not as stated in the seedlist anyway.
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perhaps the ones I had from the exchanges were not as stated in the seedlist anyway.
:o :o :o :o :o ;D
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Yes Michael, shock, horror indeed. How could such a thing possibly happen? ::)
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Could be that they have to be separated, to stay true to form. I did so. So the next ones will show. And as far I understand, the first leaf to appear (by seedlings) is different from the following.
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Very true. In fact, with some species it takes a couple of years for markings to appear. My original seedlings of rohlfsianum were all green the first year, one had markings the second year, and the third year they all had markings. As the got bigger the markings increased in intricacy. Cyclamen coum 'Maurice Dryden' here at least have all green the first year, then the second year the silver appears. You can never really judge from the first year. The same can apply to flowers, I've had some flower with much better proportions the second year, where the first year the flowers were quite insipid. That goes for a lot of other things than just Cyclamen, too. ::)
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Dear Lesley
The criminalistic way to find out about this unbelievable behavior. Just cross them back (controlled!!)
If no seedling resembles the approximately parents, your suspicion is proved 8) ;D :D
Maybe 8)
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Thank you Axel. I think many seeds find themselves with incorrect names. I hope it is accidental rather than with criminal intent. :o ;D
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Lesley,
I am thinking that criminalistic in this case meant "sneaky". ;D ;D
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I've been checking the seed capsules on my cyclamen this month, and realized that one visual clue I look for wasn't mentioned in this excellent thread yet.
On my C. hederifolium and C. coum, the seed capsule stems start to uncurl from their tight coils and stretch out a bit farther from the tuber before the capsules soften. You can see that the ones in the bottom right are starting to uncurl here:
[attach=1]
And here's a different plant, whose coils have relaxed even further:
[attach=2]
These plants' capsules haven't softened yet, but I'll be checking the second one regularly now.
Hope it helps someone who's just starting to collect their cyclamen seeds!
I'm curious: have others noticed this in other cyclamen species? Or not?