Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: Regelian on December 10, 2009, 08:57:04 PM
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I'm getting my Narcissus seed together to sow and wanted to hear from others what the find best for certain species. I have had fine success with seed from garden hybrids, typically the germinate in the Autumn for me and then overwinter in a coldframe environment. I've been using a coir-based potting mixture cut with about 20% perlite to assure good drainage and not wet compost, which I am not sure will be good enough for certain species.
Here is a list of species I am planting and I would appreciate any comments some of you may have on their culture
Narcissus assoanus
N. bujei
N. cantabricus
N. cyclamineus
N. miniatus (deficiens)
N. serotinus
N. viridiflora
N. dubius
N. pseudonarcissus varduliensis
N. pseudonarcissus major (confusus)
N. pseudonarcissus leonensis
N. pseudonarcissus eugeniae
N. pseudonarcissus moschatus (alpestris)
N. triandrus triandrus
N. trinadrus pallidiflorus
N. longispathus yepesii
N. nevadensis
Also, I am still looking for seed of other species to try, if any of you have some to spare. I'm hoping for quite a bit of feedback, as I plan to note all of this down and build my own little book on raising them from seed. There is plenty of literature about raising hybrids, but almost nothing on raising species and their particular preferences.
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Jamie, here are references from Ian's Bulb Log to narcissus seeds seed sowing, germination etc.....
(how to find......the meaning of 6/06 is Log No. 6 from 2006)
seed 6/06
collecting 49/06
seed sown at depth 43/05
storing 49/06
germinating 49/06
seedling
split corona 50/06
root 2/04
with turned in corona 51/08
twin flowered 51/08 52/08
seedlings 46/05 31/07
ex 'Camoro' 47/06
seed pods 19/05 23/08
seed storage 23/08
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Hi Jamie,
I have seed of N. cyclamineus, triandrus ,cantabricus and rupicola germinating now. I like to keep them frost free as the germinating seed is susceptible to the frost which we will eventually get. It is forecast for this week. Once they are through the ground for about 3cm they seem hardier, it is just when the seed germinates you can loose them before you even notice. A heated cable if you have one doesn't do any harm.
Susan
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Slugs are another hazard, easier to avoid under cold glass.
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I would second both Susan and Ashleys comments. I have found other bulbous genera susceptible to frost at and soon after germination. Slug damage may not be fatal, especially later in growing season but it will set back the development of the seedling bulbs .... meaning a longer wait for maturity. Under glass I have to be careful to get the watering right, too little = early dormancy, too much can = rot. Outside I let the rain in regularly which seems to be better than my sometimes erratic watering under glass. ....So many pots, so little time ::)
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Absolutely agree about frost - I lost several potfuls of newly germinated narcissus seedlings in a frame last winter after the pots froze through. I wish I'd known before - or had thought to ask the forumists! This was our first 'hard' winter after moving from an almost frost-free garden so it had never happened to me before. Last week I carefully examined seed pots of N cyclamineus, eugenie, asturiensis, pseudonarcissus etc and found roots were emerging from the seed and immediately moved the pots into the greenhouse - I'm not getting caught again. Cantabricus has been up (and indoors) for a few weeks now.
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Maggie,
thanks for all the reference points. I can spend this evening collecting infos from Ian!
Susan, Ashley,Tony, Darren,
Now, frost is a real problem then. I had planned on using the lean-to greenhouse for the seed over Winter, equipted with a thermometer that I can read from my computer 'throne'. A heating cable might be a good idea. I've not found them over here (certainly someone has them), but i am visiting my cousin for Christmas in Hampton, so I can pop off to Wisley or another garden centre to find one. Do you think creating a sand plunge with the cable is a sound idea? Or is the cable just as effective placed at the bottom of the lean-to?
Any special composts being used for specific species?
Slugs and snails did a number on my Lilium seedlings this Spring, so I figured that one out quick. They are a real problem in my climate, but don't go after all seedlings. They rarely touch the Hemerocallis, but Hosta beware!
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I have had seed germinate from autumn sowings of some species, which are then put undercover for the winter. The rest either germinate under the snow, to be 'discovered' in spring, or germinate soon after snow melt.
I think as you suggest, Jamie, it is a good idea to keep notes, as I cannot remember which came up when, but on the whole they did come up.
Talking about frost- our coldest daytime temp of this winter today at 0C, but Crocus cartwrightianus (SBL306 Crete) decided to germinate now from a 2008 sowing :)
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Hi Jamie
I have sown all species outdoors in sand frame and some of them have already germinated. If cold weather with frost under minus 1°C, i put on them glass and if under minus 5°C, I add one or two covers (moquette!). When leaves appear, I put the pots in the cold glasshouse until february. After, all return in frame outdoors for the end of growing season.
Good chance
Dom
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Aha ! This could explain some of my poor germination result when it comes to narcissus since my seed pots gets thoroughly frozen during winter. I will have to change my methods it seems.
By the way, I can verify that fresh seeds of Meconopsis quintuplinervia germinate well. The only problem is that they have started right now and winter is approaching big time :P
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Jamie if you are investing in a cable it really has to be covered in about 2cm of sand or as you suggest a sand bed. You can also get mats which just plug in complete with thermostat and can be covered with some capillary mat, good for watering too. I don't know what size of an operation or how cold you get but just a small fan heater to keep the frost off will probably do if they are in a lean-to.
Susan
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What are your winters like, Jamie? In our area 50cm of snow helps to provide all the insulation we need.
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Jamie - Just a note that heating cables are no longer available here. I undestand they were a fire hazard. I had one friend who lost a garage and another who found his propagation bed full of perlite and perlite smoking one morning. We now have to resort to the heating pads - rubber mats set at 20c.
Can you tell us more about your thermometer that you can read from the computer? It would be very useful to have.
johnw - hovering at 0c today.
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Narcissus 'Nylon Group', N. romieuxii and two pots of N. cantabricus all sown on 10 September all showing good germination and moved today from an open frame to the greenhouse.
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Jamie - Just a note that heating cables are no longer available here. I undestand they were a fire hazard. I had one friend who lost a garage and another who found his propagation bed full of perlite and perlite smoking one morning. We now have to resort to the heating pads - rubber mats set at 20c.
Can you tell us more about your thermometer that you can read from the computer? It would be very useful to have.
johnw - hovering at 0c today.
John,
I am not surprised to hear of problems with heating cables. Especially those for 110/220 V systems. I've always prefered the mats in any case, but see them very rarely offered.
As to the thermometer, what I was refering to is that my computer seat looks directly out at the lean-to. Only about 1 meter away! However, there are thermometers that can be read directly from the computer. I have used them for my aquarium. Various sensor probes are possible, all of which are connected to a program on the computer that keeps a record and can send an alarm.
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I want to thank you all for sharing your experiences. I'm slowly getting used to the exuberant response on this forum. Truly stupendous.
A bit about my weather conditions. Cologne is a Zone 8, with a wet Winter and very little snow that stays. We typically get a deep freeze to about -7°C in January for about 1-3 weeks. Sometimes only a few days of hard frost with constant freeze-thaw cycles over 24 hours. Kinda miserable, to tell the truth. lat year was the exception with -15°C for three weeks. I lost many well established shrubs as well as a few perennials. This year I am protecting my tree ferns and some of the Camelias. My Edgeworthia seemed to like the extreme cold. It never looked better.
The lean-to is only about 1 sq. meter of space X three shelves. South facing, but on the balcony where it is protected. The wall where it is mounted has a heater on the inside, so there is residual heat evenings. I suspect this is all gone by morning, as the heating shuts down as 22:00. In general, we are not talking about too much space, but it will be dedicated to the Narcissus and a few other bulbs, such as Iris and Cyclamen.
I'm unclear as to how much cold certain Narcissus can handle, such as N. miniatus, N. viridiflorus, N. serotinus. Presumedly, they tolerate no frost in the young stages. Maybe I should try them indoors under lights.
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Jamie,
Here most of these species have germinated. N. cantabricus is easy, one month and a half or so... but the species from pseudonarissus section need more time, with temperatures between 5º to 15º C. For example I sown N. alcaracensis 27 Setember and it has germinate masively last week. This year is not a good example because global warm is very noticeable in Spain and temperatures are still very hot in December!!.
Maybe it's too late to sow and if I were you I will keep the seed in fresh conditions until next season, or if you have a green house try to germinate a half from the seeds you have.
Species like N. viridiflorus, will germinate next september as most of Autumn narcissus.
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I'm unclear as to how much cold certain Narcissus can handle, such as N. miniatus, N. viridiflorus, N. serotinus. Presumedly, they tolerate no frost in the young stages. Maybe I should try them indoors under lights.
Jamie,
The daffodils mentioned above don't tolerate much frost in all stages - I guess less than -3 to - 5 ° C for more than a short time will be fatal. They also need a warm and dry resting periode for building flowers.
So indoor or greenhouse cultivation is recommended.
Gerd
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Jamie,
I keep records of what I'm doing so this may help:
Narcissus cantabricus (from Rafa, Villa del Prado 003-09) and Narcissus serotinus (from Rare-Plants Bjorn malkmus): sown Okt 15 2009 at roomtemp. and very good germination and growth under artificial light.
Narcissus varduliensis (from Rafa, Laguna de Loza): sown Okt 15 2009 at room temperature, but still not germinated. I have put them in my greenhouse with heating to avoid temps lower than 5C. These from the Pseudonarcissus-group may need some cold before germinating?
Narcissus poeticus (rare-Plants Bjorn Malkmus) Sown Aug 23 2009 and kept in my greenhouse since. No germination yet. They need some cold too? Next spring I hope.
I'm not too inclined to experiment with freezing temperatures. I hope "playing" with the conditions between 5C and 20C wil be succesful.
We're, in the same climate and latitude, so that may help. Any porous mix is fine for them so far; even the pots containing Gralux, a lime-stone addition to be able to reduce the peat content withou making the mix too gritty...
Hans
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Jamie, I do not have good results with heating cables. A lot of trouble to get the heat where you want. Instead you can use an electric heater, coupled with a thermostate set on e.g. 0C or 5C. This works perfect for me. During most of the winter, the outside temperature is in that range so you only have to heat when it is freezing. Put a small ventilator to avoid fungi. You can even put the whole setup and put it in a unheated room or garage box. Once the seeds have germinated, I do supply artificial light during winter (11h light; 13h dark with a timer, or 10h light/14h dark). I find this necessary, as lightlevels are low at our latitudes, even in a well-lit place. I you want more details on what I use and what is most likely to be availabe in Germany too, drop me an PM and I'll give you info on brands/suppliers.
Hope this helps,
Hans
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A quick up-date on my seed germinating. Seed of N. viridiflorus germinated immediately, both in a pot and in a petri dish, at room temperature. The petri dish showed sprouting after 6 days.
N. cylamineus showed germination after about 4 weeks at room temperature, but not a massive germination, just a few came up.
N. varduliensis in a petri dish shows no sign of germination, even after a night of frost didn't push it. I'm currently keeping it a cool room temps. (10-15°C).
None of the others show germination.
Also, I have quite a bit of N. viridiflorus seed, if anyone needs some.