Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Seed Exchange => Topic started by: cohan on December 03, 2009, 08:23:26 PM
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what do you all think of appropriate envelopes for mailing seeds?
i had been using bubble pack envelopes, but it has become prohibitively expensive-eg, a 5x7inch envelope, full but not stuffed to capacity was over $12 recently, which rapidly adds up with a number of packets to go out...
i have received several packets in regular envelopes, with or without a piece of card paper to shield them a bit, and all were fine, so i sent out a couple like this, at probably 1/3 or less of the cost of the padded envelopes(even factoring in possibly sending two envelopes instead of one padded mailer)..
i have some american friends who are worried about crushed seeds, and have had it happen (not my seeds) which i find interesting--how can you crush the seeds without shredding the envelope?--apart from big soft seeds like amaryllids or other large fragile seeds...
any thoughts on this are welcome, esp any canadians who have found the best way to work with our post office! i'd like to have one of those plastic sheets with slots they push the envelopes through to determine price category, so maybe the packet could be juggled around or divided to stay in a lower price range..
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Cohan, I can relate to the cost of the bubble envelopes and the little plastic thing they push it through, I have asked the post office staff if they get a smaller tool each year. ::)
I would hesitate to send seed in an ordinary envelope, unless the packets of seeds were wrapped in bubblewrap before going into the envelope.
I have received clematis seeds from the US that were posted in an ordinary envelope and had them arrive totally crushed and useless.
Some clematis seeds such as crispas are fairly large and twisted and break easily.
I am wondering if a small box would be better and cheaper in the long run.
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I doubt if the box would be cheaper as it too would have to go through the card with the size categories (we have them here too). I'm just sticking to padded envelopes to be on the safe size. One thing, although I still have to pay for the postage, I never have to buy the padded thing now as I have so many accumulated here from seeds from other sources. :D
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I doubt if the box would be cheaper as it too would have to go through the card with the size categories (we have them here too). I'm just sticking to padded envelopes to be on the safe size. One thing, although I still have to pay for the postage, I never have to buy the padded thing now as I have so many accumulated here from seeds from other sources. :D
Lesley, you can also feel virtuous, recycling ;D ;D ;D
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As has been pointed out by Stuart Pawley in his seed note; seed is prone to "migrating" in an envelope, which can mean that your carefully packed submission, can suddenly find itself no longer able to go through one of the Post Office's templates for mail sizing. Irritating and possibly costly and causing delivery delays.
I recall when the dimensional size restrictions began here ( as opposed to the simple weight restrictions) we all had a card template delivered from the post office to use to check envelope sizes.
It would be simple enough now to get the dimensions from our post office website and make a more sturdy template to use to help speed up posting out seeds, or anything else. I expect you can get those dimensions for your post office website, too, eh? Are these dimensions universal, do we know?
UK regulation sizes are ......
Letter : up to 100 gms weight and up to 240mm x 165mm x 5mm
Large Letter :up to 750gms weight and up to 355mm x 250mm x 25mm
Packet: over 750gms and greater than 353mm x 250mm x 25mm up to 610mm x 460mm x 460mm.
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Also found this list of handy emaples of what items might weigh....
Item/Weight examples for UK Royal Mail !
Letter or greeting card 30g
Standard DL envelope with 4 sheets of A4 44g
Compact disc in bubble envelope 130g
A4 envelope with 20 sheets of A4 160g
Mobile phone in bubble envelope 180g
DVD in bubble envelope 190g
Video cassette in bubble envelope 295g
400 page paperback book in bubble envelope 310g
Pair of jeans 500g
Glossy magazine in bubble envelope 585g
Pair of trainers 1000g
Electric drill 2kg
Medium sized suitcase containing clothing 20kg
....... now, all you have to do is figure out which example most closely approximates to a packet of seeds!
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It is not just the thickness of the envelope that increases the cost
of posting seeds in Canada. If you admit to having anything in the
envelope besides paper, first class mail prices no longer apply. I
would have to pay over $3 for a thin envelope with just enough seeds
to rattle and alert the clerk, and more than $6 for a reasonable amount.
I started mailing out of the U.S. as it was so much cheaper (only if
I was going to be there anyway) but now it is illegal to take seeds
into the country without a permit and inspection, even if they are
going to be mailed to Scotland at the nearest P.O. to the border, so
that economy is no longer feasible.
I wonder if there is some minimum weight that we are not coming
anywhere near to reaching, but still must pay for.
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i think there must be some other factors that arent immediately obvious..
i have never put seeds loose in an envelope, certainly--they have been in (usually multiple) individual packets, so no noise, and the couple of times i sent without bubble packs, they were also inside card paper--so i think it was clear enough it wasnt just a letter, but not so obvious that i was asked to fill out customs forms..
recently i sent a packet within canada which was the same size 5x7 inches, full though not hard to close, and mostly various packets of dry small seed, so very little weight, and it was over $12! not long before, i had sent a packet with some roots and berries, surely at least as thick and heavier, and it was significantly less expensive!
i think one of the differences may have come when the postal employee took out a tape measure to measure the thickness, after it didnt fit in the letter slot, and i think it was just a very vague measurement and that may have bumped up the cost..
i do think taping the individual packets to a card/paper to keep the bulges uniform could really help avoiding thick spots..
to contrast, i sent a good half dozen seed packets evenly distributed taped to a card inside a regular envelope, and it was only $1.65..at that price difference, i think it would be worth sending a replacement if something happened to it rather than paying 3-4 times as much to start with! i'm awaiting word on the (hopefully) safe arrival of these recent mailings....
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Helen - A padded envelope if light enough can go as a light packet rather than a small packet. Light is usually cheaper but not always. Some postal workers don't check the difference. My usual postal lady was in a bad mood one day and put a whole stack through at the small packet rate and refused to redo them when I pointed it out - the difference was 2-3$ each.
At work our machine is not programmed for light packet, only expedited (2 day delivery) which makes a huge difference.
Monday a box of Sarracenias to N Vancouver cost $12 by truck, expedited would have been $21. Had I known it was below -12c out west I would have sent expedited. Hopefully they can take it.
johnw
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When sending an individual little packet of a few seeds i often do as Cohan suggests but with a modification. A single thickness of corrugated cardboard is thin enough to stay within the size limit for letter post. I cut a hole in the card, slightly smaller than the seed packet, then tape the packet across the hole before popping the thing into an envelope. Theory is that the post office machinery rollers would then gently push the seeds into this hole where it would be protected by the thickness of the surrounding card, rather than crush them. I have not tried posting seed to myself to see if it works...
obviously the seeds need to be smaller than the thickness of the cardboard - no Paeonia!
If this doesn't make sense I can post a picture later.
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When sending an individual little packet of a few seeds i often do as Cohan suggests but with a modification. A single thickness of corrugated cardboard is thin enough to stay within the size limit for letter post. I cut a hole in the card, slightly smaller than the seed packet, then tape the packet across the hole before popping the thing into an envelope. Theory is that the post office machinery rollers would then gently push the seeds into this hole where it would be protected by the thickness of the surrounding card, rather than crush them. I have not tried posting seed to myself to see if it works...
obviously the seeds need to be smaller than the thickness of the cardboard - no Paeonia!
If this doesn't make sense I can post a picture later.
i think i understand, but a photo wouldnt hurt :)
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Here you go then.
The seed sits directly over the hole so any pressure on the envelope will just push it gently inwards. I tested it just now by heaping books on top and it works a treat. I probably wouldn't bother to do this with Nomocharis but didn't have any rounded seed available.
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John, I know what you mean. I posted some Erodium gruinum seeds to a friend a few weeks ago, the seeds are large and beautiful and I didn't want them to get broken.
The post office worker said the envelope was light enough to send at the low price but it 'might' get squished when being sorted through the small slot.
Of course I sent them with extra postage ::)
Darren, that's a good idea. ;D
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Hi
I use the small A/000 bubble type jiffy bags for mailing most seeds , small bulbs and bulbils without ever any problems. These are available on ebay at only a few pence each. ;)
Eric
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Hi
I use the small A/000 bubble type jiffy bags for mailing most seeds , small bulbs and bulbils without ever any problems. These are available on ebay at only a few pence each. ;)
Eric
these looks similar to what i have used--buying the envelopes isnt the problem its paying for the postage!
thanks for the illustration, darren... have you used this technique with multiple seed packets?
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Only two or three packets side-by -side Cohan.
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thanks, darren..
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i was just sorting some stuff including various envelopes/mailers i received seeds in, and i noticed one from kristl--a bubble env, about 5x7 inches, i don't remember how fat it was when i got it--not stuffed and not empty--and it only cost $1.18 in may of this year; how then did i just pay $12 for a packet about the same size, maybe a bit fatter, and not much heavier?? i mean, even if it was double, i wouldnt think much of it, but almost 10 times as much? am i missing something? i think i really need to talk to someone at the post office....lol
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Cohan, for 12$, maybe you paid for express delivery without realizing it?
I sent a 5X7 inch envelope with seeds to Calgary on Friday and was only charged 54cents, I almost fell over as I normally get charged around 1.59$ ( something like that) when I send seeds to Calgary.
Even the international packets I sent were only 1.65$. The packets did fit through the size thinggy, although barely.
One to the US was 95cents.
The best part was I recycled some of the envelopes and 2 of them had uncancelled stamps from when they were sent to me. I told the post office worker and she just added an extra few low cost stamps.
4 envelopes mailed out for a total of 2.78$
;D
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In the 25 years of dealing with Canada Post daily for my seed business, I've learned that there is an appalling lack of consistency about pricing from post office to post office, and even from employee to employee within the same post office.
Part of this is undoubtably due to lack of proper training, or consistent interpretation of what consistutes what, as the rules and categories constantly change, and new categories are added or deleted. It boggles my mind to keep up with it.
When postage costs are a major factor in what I charge customers, a consistent system that I understand is essential. For 20 years I mailed seed in my tiny post office in North Gower, but was never required to put customs stickers on ANY international postage---which saved me the time of the extra work and made shipping cheaper. I knew they were not following protocol, but it made my life easier, AND, without customs stickers, the international recipients were often saved extra costs in paying customs/duty. My new post office in Annapolis Royal follows the rules in this regard. Thus my padded mailers (IF THEY CONTAIN SEED) now become "light packets" and are more expensive, or stay "other lettemail" (if they do not contain seed). All non standard packaging (not plain letters or cards) require customs stickers anywhere outside of Canada. Contents matter whether shipped overseas or to the USA in terms of price.
HOWEVER, contents OR distance do NOT MATTER (or should not matter) within Canada. So a standard letter, even if it includes seed should still go out at the basic envelope cost.
As for padded mailers, again, it does (should) not matter WHAT is in them within Canada or THE DISTANCE it is going. If it meets the "other lettermail" limits (skinny enough to fit through the slot--often accomplished by redistributing contents) and meets the maximum size envelope (which is actually quite large---certainly over 8 1/2" by 12" (a fairly big padded mailer), then price is based on weight.
Because I mail hundreds of padded mailers every day, I actually go into the post office with my bins already sorted into the various categories. And for Canada, they are sorted by either under 100g ($1.18), or over (up to 200 g=$1.96, up to 500g=$2.75).
Anything that is too chubby to fit through the slot automatically becomes a small parcel AND THIS IS THE TRICKY (and expensive) PART--- because when you have a parcel (whether it is a box or a padded mailer) then DISTANCE becomes a part of the equation. And Cohan, mailing to Nova Scotia from Alberta will cost some money.
Your padded mailer to me (had it been a TINY bit thinner) would have shipped for $1.18. Even if you had sent one twice as large, with re-distributed contents, it would have cost a maximum of $2.75 up to 500g. Mind you, the larger mailers also weigh more. Or you could have sent two small mailers @ $1.18 each. However, I still wonder, why your mailer (which probably became a "small packet" should have cost over $12.00). It is worth while to go to the Canada Post web site and do a test run for a small packet, lightest weight category from Alberta to Nova Scotia.
NO MATTER WHERE I SHIP, TRYING TO AVOID BOXES (no matter what size) IS ALWAYS A PRIORITY, particularly overseas. It is *always* preferential to ship in multiple padded mailers, given a choice.
Being at the very eastern part of Canada now, it costs a fortune to ship boxes anywhere west---and the further west, the more expensive. ALTLHOUGH, even here it can get tricky. I recently had an order for a box of 2,000 glassine envelopes, which was going to cost $13.00 to ship to Ontario (with a slightly preferential rate I get as a small business customer). When my customer decided they wanted 6,000 glassines, instead of 2,000---the weight and size of the box obviously tripled. Yet, it ultimately cost $15.42 even with the increased size and weight. It all comes down to the categories.
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I have received seed from Darren and was impressed with the cardboard idea. It works well within its parameters. A foam sheet would also work for this method.
Another possibility is to pack the seed with perlite or vermiculite to act as a cussion. One does this for moist-packed seed and they travel very well with the extra padding. One can, also, use paper towels or similar to act as a cussion, or the thin foam packing sheets to help anchor a packet in the middle of an envelope.
Good topic!
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I have received seed from Darren and was impressed with the cardboard idea. It works well within its parameters.
Yesterday I received a very large quantity of seed from someone in the USA. It was inside an oversized cardboard (not padded) mailer. The large, flat, woody seed (Prinsepis sinensis) was inside an extra large zip lock bag, had been flattened out to one layer and placed between two pieces of very sturdy cardboard in the mailer. It was so flat it could have been documents and the contents arrived in perfect condition. This would not work for softer seed, but was perfect for the Prinsepia.
When this same person sent Magnolia macrophylla seed earlier, it was sent in a more traditional way--with plenty of soft packing surrounding it.
It is worth saying that each seed lot shipped should be considered on its own merits and sent accordingly. Easily crushable seed or of certain proportions or sizes must be treated differently.
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Cohan, for 12$, maybe you paid for express delivery without realizing it?
actually, since it was already so insanely expensive, i said what the heck, pay the extra 4 for express, so in fact i paid over $16! more than the seed was worth, i'm sure...lol
if i were paying the 1.18 or even 2.75, i'd never have started this topic, as those rates seem quite reasonable to move something across the country or halfway around the world!
i think from now on i will be doing all my mailing in the post office counter at the store where i work, i think it will be cheaper there, although i'm sure i sent a heavier packet to europe for considerably less, from the safe post office...
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i have some american friends who are worried about crushed seeds, and have had it happen (not my seeds) which i find interesting--how can you crush the seeds without shredding the envelope?--apart from big soft seeds like amaryllids or other large fragile seeds...
Hi Cohan,
Having had some jobs as a teenager (sometime last century ;D ) at a Postal Exchange I know that most letters in Australia go through a sorting machine that basically puts each envelope between two rollers - so anything wider than a sheet of paper is pulped. The machines were Japanese so I dare say most big exchanges in the world would have this sort of sorter...sort'er ???
cheers
fermi
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I just bet the Sarracenias I mailed (via ground) to Vancouver last week went through Edmonton Friday night. They say -58c wind chill, flights were turned back to Calgary.
I couldn't believe it was raining here last night after such a nasty cold Saturday. Our thermometer's mercury looks more like a heart monitor.
johnw
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I just bet the Sarracenias I mailed (via ground) to Vancouver last week went through Edmonton Friday night. They say -58c wind chill, flights were turned back to Calgary.
I couldn't believe it was raining here last night after such a nasty cold Saturday. Our thermometer's mercury looks more like a heart monitor.
johnw
here's hoping the packets were inside somewhere!
i mailed a 5x7 inch bubble pack to the u.s. the other day, managed to keep it flat enough to go as letter, and it was just over 2.00! yay! much better than the 12.00 for the last one! so i am relieved but also angry that they ripped me off by so much last time :(
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[/quote]
here's hoping the packets were inside somewhere!
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Cohan - Live plants in a big box!
johnw
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here's hoping the packets were inside somewhere!
[/quote]
Cohan - Live plants in a big box!
johnw
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all the more likely they should have been inside... i did know it was plants you meant, not seeds..
do canada post trucks drive overnight?
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I use these boxes when sending out small bulbs, qualify for large letter rate in the UK, but parcel rate for else where. Never had a problem with crushing from them i pad the box out with somthing light to stop the contents from getting bruised.
http://www.defendapack.co.uk/pricing_in_proportion_boxes.htm
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I use these boxes when sending out small bulbs, qualify for large letter rate in the UK, but parcel rate for else where. Never had a problem with crushing from them i pad the box out with somthing light to stop the contents from getting bruised.
http://www.defendapack.co.uk/pricing_in_proportion_boxes.htm
interesting, i dont think we have an eqivalent here, though i have received small boxes from south africa that presumably were not expensive to ship, since i was not charged much for shipping..
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The appropriately sized boxes made for CDs or videos/DVDs can be very useful and are quite rigid of course. Without wishing to seem overly endowed with the world's monetary riches (I'm not), I don't worry too much about the cost of sending seeds or the occasional plant. It seems more important to get them there and in best possible condition so a few extra dollars are well worth it.
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The appropriately sized boxes made for CDs or videos/DVDs can be very useful and are quite rigid of course. Without wishing to seem overly endowed with the world's monetary riches (I'm not), I don't worry too much about the cost of sending seeds or the occasional plant. It seems more important to get them there and in best possible condition so a few extra dollars are well worth it.
a few dollars yes, but i had quite a scare with that packet that was 6 or 7 times the usual rate, and so many packets yet to send...lol
luckily, the next was back to normal...
today i received some amaryllid seed in small paper envelopes in a bubble envelope in a bubble envelope, and some (most? all?) seem spoiled--i'm not sure yet if its squished or frozen, though they were held at the post office, not put in my mailbox which would have frozen everything for sure..
i dont see how they could have squished in a double bubble packing, but the packet was marked 'inspected' so i wonder if the inspectors might have manually squished them checking the contents? since the inner bubble pack was opened, but the individual (non-see through) packets were not :(
just received today, so waiting to see what they look like by tomorrow--nerines, haemanthus,cyrtanthus(this looks like dried flakes, should it??)
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cyrtanthus(this looks like dried flakes, should it??)
Pretty much so. And yet they sprout. The Nerine seeds might not have appreciated the cold.
Heard the Sarracenias arrived in Vancouver in a week. Obviously though labelled with a truck sticker they must have flown.
johnw
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cyrtanthus(this looks like dried flakes, should it??)
Pretty much so. And yet they sprout. The Nerine seeds might not have appreciated the cold.
Heard the Sarracenias arrived in Vancouver in a week. Obviously though labelled with a truck sticker they must have flown.
johnw
congrats on the safe arrival of the sarracenias :)
yes, my packet may have got cold somewhere between here and indiana; part of the trouble is that i dont know what these seeds usually look like, though they look more squished than frozen, i could be wrong..hopefully at least a few will make it..
the haemanthus i know what to do with, but i need to research the others yet..
good to know the cyrtanthus are supposed to look like that..i didnt really think they could dessicate that fast if they were supposed to look like the other amaryllids..lol
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There's a picture of Cyrtanthus seeds here:
http://theseedsite.co.uk/db6b.html
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There's a picture of Cyrtanthus seeds here:
http://theseedsite.co.uk/db6b.html
thanks, mick...that looks about the same..
i have found 2 possible germination methods, and probably have enough to try both (C montanus)..
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Cohan,
I germinate such Amaryllids by floating them on water in warmth. They will germinate in a few days, if still viable.
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Cohan,
I germinate such Amaryllids by floating them on water in warmth. They will germinate in a few days, if still viable.
thanks, jamie, that's one of the methods i saw somewhere (PBS?) and i will try it :)
as for the nerines, if they are not all dried out or mush in a day or so, similar to Haemanthus treatment? either on surface or just wait for germination before sowing?
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If you put the Nerine seeds in a paper bag in a warm place, say an airing cupboard or on a warm window sill (over a radiator) they should throw out a root very soon then they can be put into a seed pot and kept above freezing (in your climate). If they stay too long in the bag they'll gradually lose substance.
The Cyrtanthus seeds should be pretty much like those of Zephyranthes/Rhodophiala, or even Hosta, black, flat(tish) and glossy.
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If you put the Nerine seeds in a paper bag in a warm place, say an airing cupboard or on a warm window sill (over a radiator) they should throw out a root very soon then they can be put into a seed pot and kept above freezing (in your climate). If they stay too long in the bag they'll gradually lose substance.
The Cyrtanthus seeds should be pretty much like those of Zephyranthes/Rhodophiala, or even Hosta, black, flat(tish) and glossy.
thanks, lesley; i'll watch the nerines for a few days and see if they seem to have any life..