Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Alpines => Topic started by: cohan on November 30, 2009, 07:14:20 PM
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hi all--i'm looking at some seed lists where i see such things as:
3600m, Haba Shan,Yunnan, China
4700m, Langtang, Nepal
5500m, Ladakh Range, India
3400m, Zhongdian range, Yunnan, China.
4500m, DaXue Shan, Sichuan, China
does anyone have any experience or knowledge of what sort of temperatures these areas experience in winter?
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From those altitudes, Cohan... pretty darn cold!
This may be some help:
http://www.chinaorbit.com/travel/china-weather.html
http://www.backyardgardener.com/zone/china.html
From the Chinese site, for example.....
The diverse landscape of Yunnan makes it difficult to define a climate. Therefore it is easier to divide the country into climatic zones. In Yunnan you can recognize 3 kinds of climates, also called the “Three dimensional Climate”: temperate, sub-tropical and tropical changing over 4 regions: the low, hot river valleys, mountain areas and frigid highlands. The seasonal changes are small, but the changes in day-and-night temperature are in contrary much bigger.
The average annual temperature is the lowest in the northwest, 7 degrees Celsius increasing more southward to 22 degrees Celsius on average in the Yuanjiang River Valley. Furthermore the rain-season start in May till October and it accounts for 83% of the abundant rainfall of 750mm-1750mm annually.
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tks, maggi--i assumed it should be cold up there too, but i guess it depends how warm it is below!
i searched yunnan weather a bit, and got the idea of the zones, but they didnt say much more than--its colder in the mountainous part...lol
i'll take a look at your links tonight, time to get off to work now (i work at 2 pm)
From those altitudes, Cohan... pretty darn cold!
This may be some help:
http://www.chinaorbit.com/travel/china-weather.html
http://www.backyardgardener.com/zone/china.html
From the Chinese site, for example.....
The diverse landscape of Yunnan makes it difficult to define a climate. Therefore it is easier to divide the country into climatic zones. In Yunnan you can recognize 3 kinds of climates, also called the “Three dimensional Climate”: temperate, sub-tropical and tropical changing over 4 regions: the low, hot river valleys, mountain areas and frigid highlands. The seasonal changes are small, but the changes in day-and-night temperature are in contrary much bigger.
The average annual temperature is the lowest in the northwest, 7 degrees Celsius increasing more southward to 22 degrees Celsius on average in the Yuanjiang River Valley. Furthermore the rain-season start in May till October and it accounts for 83% of the abundant rainfall of 750mm-1750mm annually.
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I have grown plants from up to 4400m altitude- no problems in winter under snow or with frost- the only problems are trying to persuade them that our summer heat is 'normal' for them :(
Sometimes it depends on the species and on the whole I have more luck with plants from limestone areas- and presumably drier habitats, than I do ones from granitic areas. My soil is neutral and I add to it accordingly so I think that is not the problem.
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Hi Cohan, I have visited both Nepal and China several times in Sept, Oct. the trips wers always to higher elevations 4,000 mtrs plus. On the way up even around 1,000 mtrs you could have snow, getting higher the temperature would be 15 to 20 c daytime them minus 10 at night. Tho one important thing is the snow cover this protects the plants and the higher up only the small cushions growing on verticle ledges or on rocky outcrops can be visible above the snow. The taller plants like meconopsis, Roscoeas, incarvilleas, Nomocharis are usually growing with dwarf shrubby plants and I am sure the roots of these help the dormant plants in winter. We will never live long enough to discover what helps plants in nature but we all desire them so keep trying, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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thanks for the input, ian :)
i guess all i can do is try some and see if they survive here :)
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I have grown plants from up to 4400m altitude- no problems in winter under snow or with frost- the only problems are trying to persuade them that our summer heat is 'normal' for them :(
Sometimes it depends on the species and on the whole I have more luck with plants from limestone areas- and presumably drier habitats, than I do ones from granitic areas. My soil is neutral and I add to it accordingly so I think that is not the problem.
tks, simon..of course i am colder than you in winter, not as hot in summer, and usually not as dry..no doubt there would be successes and failures, as long as its not totally unreasonable to try, i dont mind... if ian is saying -10 in october, maybe i have some chance..
this year, we hit near -20 in october, luckily it didnt stay and november was much nicer--above freezing days, though well below every night..
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cohan
What species are you thinking about? I grow some plants from wild collected in Nepal and China seeds. They are hardy enough for our winters (when covered with snow) but they do not like long summer, drying out and summer hit.
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olga, i didn't narrow down my choices very much, i just saw a lot of things from those places that looked interesting, but if i make an order, it would only be a very small one...
i am looking at the lists of pavelka-- http://www.pavelkaalpines.cz/
the website showed an old seedlist, but i emailed and got a new one..
and also holubec-- http://www.villevekster.com/wildseeds.html
just a few things i highlighted on holubec list (nothing serious, just looking still):
Christollea flabellata, Brassicaceae
Tajikistan: Yazgulem Range, Pamir, 3800 m,
Cysticorydalis fedtschenkoana, Fumariaceae
Tajikistan: Darwas Range, Pamir, 3700 m,
Microula tibetica ssp. pratensis, Boraginaceae
China: Dari, Qinghai, 4300 m,
Przewalskya tangutica, Solanaceae
China: Maqin Gangri, Qinghai, 4500 m,
Rhododendron nivale ssp. boreale, Ericaceae
China: Shika Shan, Yunnan, 4300 m
just for some examples; on this list there are also some of those incredible Saussureas we saw in harry jans' thread, and on one of the lists i also saw some gesneriaceae..
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cohan,
I saw Christollea flabellata at Tian-Shan mountains at aprox. 4000 m. altitude. It grows in extremely cold conditions when snow is possible even in august. I also took and sowed seeds. So… there is nothing to boast of. All of them did not like my summer.
The same thing I can say about Cysticorydalis fedtschenkoana. In addition it has it’s own pollinator, beautiful butterfly Apollo.
I could recommend you to grow these plants only if you had an alpine house with refrigerator. :-\
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It grows in extremely cold conditions when snow is possible even in august.
So, similar in that respect to the mountains here.
What are your summers like, Olga? For example, number of frostless days, maximum temperature, average overnight lows?
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If I lived on top of Mt Musala here (alt 2900+m) I am sure I would have much more luck with Himalayan alpines. Snow free for 2 months tops and able to generate its own cloud for shade in summer. Still I don't think I would enjoy several thousnd people walking through my garden in the summer hiking season. ;)
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Lori,
Usually we do not have night frosts from mid of May to mid of September. Through the summer hot dry periods happen sometimes with +30-35 C. It could be a week or two or a month or two… :-\ I like himalayans very much and try every species I can reach. Most of them do not like such weather just as many of high alpines and tundra plants. They go well through the winter but become wither and seek or die in the summer.
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Thanks, Olga. Your summers sound like those of the Canadian prairies, east of here. I just looked up the average elevation of
Moscow and I was surprised to find it is only 151m... not what I expected, somehow.
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thanks olga and simon for the input..
lori, have you tried any of the high alpines, himalayan or not--those that have a problem with lowland summers?..
i think i wont really know til i try, summers can be warm here of course, we can also reach 30-35, but usually its more like a few days than weeks or months, and nights are often in single digits even in mid-summer..
here we are near 1000m, not too far from the foothills (not as close as lori, who is in them) with unstable air all year--even a thunderstorm can drop the temperature from 30 to 18 in a few minutes....
something i'm wondering about, although i'm not sure if it would help: my ground water is very cold, even in summer--when i am watering my vegetable garden, potted flowers etc, i try to put the water in pails to warm first, or let the hose sit in the sun to warm up..i'm thinking a trickle hose for a small section of rock garden in warm/dry weather might keep the roots a bit cooler?--i dont mean all day, maybe just once a day for a few minutes... i'm not much into watering, but this wouldnt involve much work or water...lol
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lori, have you tried any of the high alpines, himalayan or not--those that have a problem with lowland summers?..
Well, I guess I should look up the provenance of what I do have and what I have failed with.
my ground water is very cold, even in summer--when i am watering my vegetable garden, potted flowers etc, i try to put the water in pails to warm first, or let the hose sit in the sun to warm up..
I wouldn't bother, Cohan. No one warms the rain water and it's cold too. It frequently falls to 10 C when it rains here, and we have frequent hail too. Most of the precip is in solid form some years. ;D (I'm actually serious about that last point!) Also, in the mountains, it can snow or freeze at any time, so these plants really don't need coddling. Water coming out of a hose is cold too. Anyway, IMO, warming the water would be a pointless effort for outdoor plants.
Calgary is not actually in the foothills either... it's marginally closer than Rocky Mountain House is though. The "foothills" are defined by the beginning of thrust faulting, which starts to be visible at surface ~30 km west of Calgary along the #1 highway. (The hills and dales in and around Calgary -that are causing so much trouble for traffic lately - are glacially and erosionally formed.) :)
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lori, have you tried any of the high alpines, himalayan or not--those that have a problem with lowland summers?..
Well, I guess I should look up the provenance of what I do have and what I have failed with.
my ground water is very cold, even in summer--when i am watering my vegetable garden, potted flowers etc, i try to put the water in pails to warm first, or let the hose sit in the sun to warm up..
I wouldn't bother, Cohan. No one warms the rain water and it's cold too. It frequently falls to 10 C when it rains here, and we have frequent hail too. Most of the precip is in solid form some years. ;D (I'm actually serious about that last point!) Also, in the mountains, it can snow or freeze at any time, so these plants really don't need coddling. Water coming out of a hose is cold too. Anyway, IMO, warming the water would be a pointless effort for outdoor plants.
Calgary is not actually in the foothills either... it's marginally closer than Rocky Mountain House is though. The "foothills" are defined by the beginning of thrust faulting, which starts to be visible at surface ~30 km west of Calgary along the #1 highway. (The hills and dales in and around Calgary -that are causing so much trouble for traffic lately - are glacially and erosionally formed.) :)
i wouldnt warm the water for native plants--but then, i rarely water them ;) only things rooting in pots etc; my ground water is cold enough to hurt your hand, even in summer, so while i might not worry about peas or cabbage, i cant believe that tropical plants like tomatoes appreciate such cold water--as it is they hardly grew this year it was so cold all summer :(
rocky is not physically in the foothills, but it is just at the edge of the foothills biome, different already from where i am, 30km farther east..
i can well imagine those hills in calgary (quite steep) would be a real problem in this recent snow and slippery weather! thank goodness my drive to work is basically flat-lots of ups and downs, but not enough to affect driving...but we took yesterday and today off so as not to have to deal with the drifted back roads..
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To get any ripe tomatoes before the end of summer, at least in this part of the city (on the cooler, higher elevation edge), one needs a greenhouse (which we have).
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To get any ripe tomatoes before the end of summer, at least in this part of the city (on the cooler, higher elevation edge), one needs a greenhouse (which we have).
very much a matter of luck with the summer, here, but a greenhouse sure helps!..hopefully in the near future... of course its not unusual to have a cheap seasonal use greenhouse just for tomatoes etc in this area, heating all winter is much rarer..
i was just happy that the spot i chose was sheltered enough that they didnt freeze from late may despite frequent frosts in the area, and again in late summer they survived a long time--of course the mid-summer was so cool that nothing ripened until i brought the tomatoes (not the plants) in...lol
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cohan, Lori,
Forgive me my inattention! Of course 1000m elevation at your latitude gives a hope to himalayan plants.
Lori,
Yes Moscow is situated at a large low plain. My garden is higher – at 240m. This place is named mountains because of hills. But there are no any stone, cliffs, etc..
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To get any ripe tomatoes before the end of summer... one needs a greenhouse (which we have).
The same here.
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cohan, Lori,
Forgive me my inattention! Of course 1000m elevation at your latitude gives a hope to himalayan plants.
Lori,
Yes Moscow is situated at a large low plain. My garden is higher – at 240m. This place is named mountains because of hills. But there are no any stone, cliffs, etc..
unfortunately no open stone here, either, just rolling low hills left from glaciation, but we have this altitude while more or less flat..
if i get some seed to try of those species, i will certainly report my successes--or failures..
of course for now, any failure is likely to be my fault and not climate...lol
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while trying to learn more about these climates (still not terribly successfully! the tourist info generally available is not too interested in how cold the high places get in winter...lol; or sometimes available is the yearly average or mean temperature, a piece of information i have never found to have any value whatsoever!)
along the way, looking at india, i found some info on an area (not the high area i'm interested in) that is one of the most/the most rainy on earth, now i've already forgotten the figures--avg 10,000mm annually?? with a period of 2years on record with daily rain!
yikes....
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Areyou sure it isn't Manchester, England? ;)
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Areyou sure it isn't Manchester, England? ;)
i think david was telling us he'd had a couple of months of it, nearly, that was bad enough....lol..there are places on canada's west coast with, i think, over 300 days of rain a year.. beautiful places, though..
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Mmm temperate rainforest- certainly not much of that left standing in the British Isles :-\
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Mmm temperate rainforest- certainly not much of that left standing in the British Isles :-\
its a struggle in canada to protect it as well, but there are still some nice areas;
i've heard recently of a plan(project/program?) by native peoples on the queen charlotte islands (off british columbia, one of the wettest areas) to preserve not only the land but to include the surrounding sea and all the life in it-to see the ecosystem as extending from mountain top to ocean floor; completely logical, and all too rare!
luckily there are glimmers of hope like this here and there..