Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: monocotman on October 22, 2009, 09:58:39 PM
-
Hi there,
as a very occasional contributor to a site that I've learnt so much from, I'd like to repay part of that knowledge by offering my observations on growing cyps in pots over the past few years and hopefully sparking a debate about their culture.
I grow mainly hybrids in large 8 inch plastic pots in a compost of about 90% super coarse perlite and 10% orchid bark. Plants are overwintered in a cold frame or out house but spend the summer in the shade of a large conifer and receive only early morning sun.
The pots are watered every other day and fed full strength fertilizer, especially right at the start of the season when there is greatest need. Later in the season the fertilizing is more haphazard and I tend to use the high potash tomato type.
To start with, I struggled with the culture until I realised that they needed more water and feed compared with organic composts.
Plants grew slowly bigger and very occasionally went from one to two growths.
But in the past couple of years, the plants have really taken off in terms of growth and flowering.
I'm not sure whether this is down to
a) more experience
b) more feeding - I was feeding at quarter strength
c) two poor summer with little heat stress
or a combination of these.
This last spring there were many stems with two flowers.
One of the things that has also helped is the compost - the hybrids develop very extensive root systems in the perlite compared to organics - see the first photo.
This is my star plant 'Sunny' and has developed into a 22 stem monster in only four years from the first flower.
It wasn't until I started to repot some of the more vigorous plants that I realised just how extensive some of the root systems are. Photos one ,three and four show this well.
Following instructions on Michael Wienert's excellent web site about the dangers of allowing cyps to get too big, I've tried to split 'Sunny'.
It just seems to be a case of washing off all the compost from the roots then pulling and tugging until the rhizome is in the desired number of bits.
This is easier said than done. Just locating the rhizome is not easy and Sunny's is very tightly knit. I had to resort to a knife in the end. See photo two - it took an hour and a half to get to this point.
Has anyone more experience of this technique?
Anyway I suppose that my viewpoint is that these hybrids aren't difficult- I've managed to fail almost completely with fritillaries in pots at the same time.
They may take a couple of years to build up a decent root system but then they can really move.
'Inge' has gone from three to nine stems this year and Pixi has doubled.
The few species that I grow do nicely but only increase gently,
Regards,
David
-
My goodness, David, this shows quite clearly that you are having considerable success!
In addition to your list of variables which might have contributed to the rather super amount of growth you are experiencing with 'Sunny' .... do you think there might also be the factor that, at or after a certain stage, the plant is simply mature enough to really get growing?
Whereabouts are you gardening? That might help some of us to better understand your local climate. Oh, I recall now from one of your earlier posts.... near Cambridge, in England?
I also remember this post with photos of 'Sunny' ...... http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3301.msg89700#msg89700
-
Hi Maggie,
I agree with you that the plants need to get to a certain size before they start to 'take off'.
This seems to be somewhere between 2 and 4 growths plus a pot full of roots.
How long they can take to get to this size seems to vary between crosses.
'Aki' seems to be quite slow. Sabine is increasing gently.
'Hank Small' has spent three years as a single growth, getting taller with more flowers each year. This year there were three on a stem.
Finally, it has produced three buds for next year, so I'm now hoping that it is take off mode.
But a nice x Ventricosum flowered for the first time this year with four flowers and has now jumped to eight buds this autumn.
'Philipp' stayed as a single growth for three years but in the last three seasons has gone from two to ten buds and a potful of roots similar to Sunny.
I don't live in the best area for growing these plants - East Anglia receives a more continental climate than the rest of the UK. You should be able to grow these plants more easily in the West and North.
In addition, the plants aren't pampered. They are much tougher than they appear,
Regards,
David
-
Interesting David but what are you fertilizing with and whats the NPK?
And how often do you repot your Cyp hybrids
Also do you grow species?
cheers
-
Hi Stephen,
I fertilize mainly with a standard cheap white powder - 'miracle gro' or 'phostrogen'.
I think the timing is more important than what you use.
The fertilizer went on a bit late this spring and a formosanum had started to grow.
The growths were a bit pale. The rest of the plants, which all develop slightly later, were fine with a decent green colour.
Most of the nitrogen requirements of the plant for the year must be in the initial rapid shoot growth, so I like to have the pot well charged with fertilizer before this starts to happen.
Once the flowers have withered and the leaves are fully expanded, the N requirement must fall away. I fertilize haphazardly from this point on, when I remember.
Sometimes with normal and sometimes with tomato food.
All the subsequent growth activity for the year is underground - roots and new buds.
The hybrids are repotted when I find the compost deteriorating and this is usually when a worm or two find their way in and start to produce casts.
This tends to take at least two years but may be as long as four or five.
if I was more vigilant then they could probably go for longer.
I grow some of the usual species - the yellow flowered N. american (pubescens/kentuckiense etc)and the reddish chinese/himalayans( tibeticum/macranthos etc). None of the difficult chinese ones.
They all grow in the same compost but their rate of increase is slower. They are fertilized at a quarter rate compared to the species, following recommendations from Michael Wienert.
A nice clone of tibeticum now has four growths from a single one two years ago, despite carrying a pod this year.
Others are slower - a japonicum is still a single growth after three years, although it did manage to flower this year,
Regards,
David
-
But a nice x Ventricosum flowered for the first time this year with four flowers and has now jumped to eight buds this autumn.
Yes, David, it is odd, if very pleasant, that some types do manage this exponential growth spurt..... :o :)
I think that Anthony Darby, who has considerable success with Cyps and who lives in Dunblane, in central Scotland, finds the same thing with some of his plants.
I believe that his rainfall will be higher than yours .... ??? :-\
-
Interesting David,
So i guess there would be urea in a cheap fertiliser that you use and here iam using an orchid fert and a hydroponic one that lacks in urea.(Hydroponic ony because they are just about grown that way with inorganic media) Ive allways been told to stay away from using ferts that contain that element.
Im looking for something suitable as the ones that i have lack calcium also and I think is a major one for cyp developement.
Cyps are in full swing here in the southern hemiphere. Leaves are just about to expand. They look ok just really slow to get them to increase. C reginae does the best for me.
Do you sink your pots into the ground David?
Ive started to plant the larger ones in terracotta pots(a bowl shape) and sink half the pots seems to keep the roots cooler and they like the shape as they can spread. I have a formosum with 12 flowers. I have seedlings of species and hybrids in their 4th and 5th year but they are sooooo slow. Flowers on some maybe next year.
cheers
-
Stephen,
I don't know whether these is urea in miracle gro or phostrogen - may be someone else can help?
The water here in near Cambridge is pretty hard so the plants don't lack for a source of calcium. They tend to be watered with this most of the time but I try to flush through with rain water when I remember.
I don't sink the pots - that would be a council of perfection that I don't have time for.
I tried standing the pots in a small amount (half an inch) of water last year to buffer the pots against any swings in water availability but I don't think it helped much. I didn't bother this year. The plants are all 'over potted' into at least 8 inch pots even when quite small so I don't think this is a factor.When perlite is used as compost, the pot size is irrelevant -it will never 'sour'.
I use normal shaped pots and the roots go all the way to the bottom and appear fine so I'm not convinced that any particular shape is necessary.
What are your summer temperatures like?
The general view seems to be that cyps don't like anything over the mid twenties centigrade.
This year we had one week of high twenties/low thirties and I sprayed the plants twice a day and they seemed to be fine. One or two developed some small black spots on the leaves but that was about all.
I think the critical thing for increase is how many days you can keep the plants green and 'growing' and not stressed after flowering has finished.
I'm also sure that feeding at full strength has much improved the performance of the hybrids.
There may yet be more to come. If you look at the photos on Werner Frosch's web site which show symptoms of over feeding ( burnt leaf tips) none of my plants have shown these. So I may not yet be at the limit.
Another thing is definitley clonal. Some plants just grow better than others.The photos show a nice tibeticum that is a division from another well known grower.The photo was taken earlier this year and there are now four new buds despite one of the flowers carrying a pod.
I have another tibeticum that hardly moves at all.
Seed grown plants also seem much easier. There is a plentiful supply of fasciolatums around now and these all seem to be very straight forward in this compost.
Maggie - I think our annual rainfall is about 26 inches( nearly semi arid!!) - apparently you have to go all the way to the Ural mountains before you find another place with rainfall this low,
Regards,
David
-
In response to a request - the super coarse perlite I use is 3-6mm size and is produced by William Sinclair Ltd.
They appear to sell it for insulation and not for garden use.
Maybe that is why is it quite cheap.
A 100 litre bag from my local horticultural supplies costs about £12.
The local shop is Berrycroft Stores Ltd based in the village of Willingham north of Cambridge.
They basucally supply the horticultural growers in the fens.
The place is an Aladdin's cave of all things horticultural and hasn't been updated since the 1950's.
It reminds me of walking into the shop in 'Open all hours'. A great place to visit.
They don't take plastic and don't have a web site or e mail,
Regards
David
-
David,
Those Cyps are stunning. Beautiful!
-
hello David,
Your Cyps grow to perfection.Very nice!
I keep a thermometer close by where the Cyps grow. Summer max at 32c in the shade for a few days and average at 24c and a minimum at 12c during the night. As I live on a mountain they seem to like to climate here, 59inches of rain and some very cool and misty nights keep them happy. Winters can be very cold and dry.
The high temps do stress out the plants and I do irrigate, if i remember. I sink the pots as I fear they do dry out to quickly and heat up in summer. Over head irrigation does keep them cool. Ive watched a whole pot full of Cyp seedlings yellow a few days after a heat wave and they did not come again the year after so keeping them cool and moist is a must in summer.
Ive notice you cover your compost mix with a clay pebble?....Ive been covering mine in grit, does seem to make a differance in keeping them moist as they do tend to have roots on the surface and this is the reason why a repot my adults in terracota bowls and hopefully want to form large clumps.
In a garden in the US C reginae roots are known to spread out to a meter and more looking for moisture and nutrition
Yes the C fasciolatums are nice and hardy from what I hear, this has been on my wish list but If only I lived in the EU I would grow them all :) All adult Cyps entering Aus have to be fumigated and 50% are lost in the process, most of mine are seedling grown so no fumigation is needed but even then this is risky as some arrive dead on arrival not coping with tempretures in transport, so what I have are very treasured orchids and are now starting to make great gains.
cheers
-
Hi David
Thanks for the interesting reading. I have a few of Cyp/hybrids but don't seem to be able to bulk them up, so all your information will be a benefit to me. I think I have been trying to keep them to warm. I keep mine in terracotta pots and stand them outside in a shaded spot in the summer. After the leaves die down I put them under my staging in the greenhouse, I was wandering what you do with yours in the winter .
Thanks Angie :)
-
Stephen,
I use hydroleuca as a mulch - it keeps down the weeds and is prettier to look at than perlite. The roots don't tend to grow into it.
It is also very easy to remove when you want to check out the plants.
I sympathise with your customs arrangements - you must have to be really dedicated to try to import cyps.
Do you grow all your plants in clay pots?
I'd be very wary of trying to grow them in small clay pots - too much fluctuation in the moisture levels.
Your summer temps sound Ok - maybe a bit warmer than here. You could probably water every day in summer if you grew in perlite.
Angie - I made the same mistake with my cyps when I first started growing them. I pampered them and they didn't like it. They hate greenhouse culture -most of the year it is too warm and dry. When growing the only time they go there is for photos - it is often too windy to take decent ones outside.
However they do tend to spend the winter there as it is convenient. I cover the pots in newspaper to keep any winter sun off them and damp it down from time to time.
David
-
It is always interesting to read other peoples experiences. After eight years of growing them in quantity I have reached the conclusion there is no simple answer to what to use, etc. but there are certainly some vital do not's.
In particular - don't let the plants get hot in the summer; keep them well watered through the growing season; don't use compost with too high an organic content which causes the loss of aeration in the pot. Keep them out of a green house from May until October.
My stock are in a polytunnel but with net sides and have an overhead watering system which is automated so they get short showers regularly throughout the day. This cools the atmosphere during hot weather.
This summer has been excellent for growth because the weather has been cool and thus the plants less stressed. I have a quantity of large pots, hybrids and species (10 lt plastic) which I hope will behave next year and flower at the right time for the show exhibitions. One thing I learnt very early on was that when using terracotta pots they must be kept damp all through the summer to avoid drying out. This is almost impossible unless the pots are sunk in sand. Hence my using plastic.
I have had the good fortune of being able to pick Peter Corkhills brains for the past year and see exactly how he grows the magnificant speciemens he has. Someone mentioned Sunny. Peter has Two large fish boxes with superb specimens in. They bulk up very quickly. Peter had used coarse bark in the mix of some of the older plants I bought from him. When I re-potted the roots were in a matt of white mycelium and the large number of buds were huge.
-
Good advice, Jeff... I see you remembered your log-in, then!? :D ;)
I would be a little wary, up here, of takining pots overwintered in a glass house out of doors in May, though.... our frosts can still be vicious at that time and for a plant which has had winter protection, I would prefer a longer period of hardening off before exposure to all our weather can throw at it!
-
Hi Maggie,
Are you saying winters are tougher for you!!!!
I get your point. It is important that the cypripediums are kept as cool as possible at all times. That is why the show plants I have are in such large pots. They can tolerate the frost without having frosted roots through the sides of the pots. This seems to encourage the plant to bulk up quickly. It also means that if I move the plants to a warmer spot I have a limited control over flowering time.
One year we had 15 deg C in February for three days and by early March I had c macranthos in flower....
-
Well Jeff, I don't want to moan too much about our weather, though some years I do think we'd be glad if we were sure of 15 degrees for three days for the whole of the summer!! ;D ;D ;D
-
David
Thanks for your reply ,I hope mine will bulk up like yours has done. I do pamper some of my plants and I bet that's how I kill most of them. Lets hope after reading these forums I will get a better, healthier plant next year.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff for your knowledge in growing cypripediums, I will keep mine a little longer under cover, like Maggie says its a bit colder up here.
I hope you post pictures of your plants and good luck in showing your plants, I think it will be a long time before any of plants would be fit for the show benches.
Angie :)
-
I'm amazed at how many growing points there are on your plants. I have only two plants in my collection 'Aki' and reginae. The latter has been tortures for many years in a 1L pot, never been repotted yet flowers every year. 'Aki' is hit and miss.
Can you suggest some easy Cyps for beginners that multiply well?
-
David I grow all my Cyp seedlings and juviniles in plastic pots that are sunken in river sand. Its only the adult Cyps that I have in terracotta pots that have the insides painted with a sealant to keep the moisture in.
Mark most if not all Cyp hybrids will multiply better and faster if planted in the ground. These perform better in woodland gardens with morning sunlight. I would when I have extra divisions to plant out.
Angie there are so many methods for keeping your Cyps cool and not frost bitten. Slowing the growth right down some growers have them in a cool basement,garage, shed or place them in a trench and bury them in soil and cover them with leaf litter in a shady corner of the garden exposed to the elements is one of the best methods in areas of extreme cold like zones 4. Growers that live in warm climates that dont really get the 3 months of chill have placed them in fridges and some bare root them just to squeeze that much more but in the chiller not freezer. They only need a 3 month period of below 5c. 0c to -5c would be even better.
cheers
-
Hi Stephen
That's amazing to hear that in warmer places they would put there Cyps in fridges:o ( ever day I learn something else on this forum ) I thought they were more delicate, I suppose they look delicate so I have been pampering them. I will try some in plastic and see if this makes a difference. Liked the idea of painting the inside of the terracotta pots with a sealant. I will maybe someday try some planted outside if l ever get them to bulk up ( bit to precious at the moment ) thanks for your help.
You really pick up some good ideas from all you experts out there.
Thanks Angie :)
-
Morning,
in the UK, with our fairly equable climate, I wouldn't bother growing cyps in anything but large plastic pots. Seedlings are potted several together into 8 inch pots to be grown on and most mature plants have one to themselves.
You can really overpot them when grown in perlite. The compost doesn't sour and you can leave them there for years, until the worms move in. It is also impossible to overwater them in the summer as perlite is so free draining. When the plants are in growth - if in doubt- water them!
Mark - I would have thought your wetter climate would be better than mine in East Anglia for cyps. In the hybrids, Gisela is supposed to be really vigorous but mine is slower than most others to increase. Beyond that, I don't think there is much between to choose them for vigour and ease of growth. Choose your favourite. Michael Wienert has just brought out a beautiful almost 'alba' macranthos hybrid called Renate pastel which is my pick this autumn. Edrom have it and so do Rareplants.
David
-
Hi all, firstly a great discussion with lots of good tips. i have been growing Cypripediums for about 20 years and sure I easily killed them to start with these small test tube seedlings you see around, then I just planted them in the garden ordinary soil with some composted bark and a bit of extra grit for drainage. Every time i want to split them up I lift after flowering when it is wet, you can always be sure of a shower in Scotland then I split the plants up and put them back in a row just in the garden. I do grow a few in pots with the mix as follows John Innes no3, Perlite, Composted bark and grit one part each. I feed half strength when growing with tomatoe fertiliser, cheers Ian the Christie kind
-
Hi Mark,
You might like to look at the following hybrids x columbianum (natural hybrid) with superb small flowers with ivory pouches; Sunny, a massive calcelous x fasciolatum hybrid, Sabine with its pink blush bowl; Emil (the calceolus look a like) and Ulla Silkens the reginae hybrid with variable pink and white flowers. All are good fast growing. If you want to see photographs have a look on my web site www.lanesidehardyorchids.com.
-
Evening,
Just to show that a good range of species and hybrids will grow in pots in perlite and you don't need to worry about different compost mixes.
No. 1 - x andrewsii and two forms of 'Emil'.
No.2 - rear - (L to R) x ventricosum, Michael, Gisela.
Front - tibeticum and Sabine
No.3 - 2 forms of Ulla Silkens plus a reginae.
Plus some two flowered stems
No.4 - bought as Gabriela but not. May be Philipp or Lucy Pinkepank.
No.5 - Pixi - second flowering -several double flowered stems.
Finally - hybrid vigour from crosses:-
No. 6 - rear - 'Inge'. Front - the parents - parviflorum plus two fasciolatums,
Regards,
David
-
Hi David
Thanks for sharing your cypripediums, nice to see close up pictures of the plants in there pots 8),
Angie :)
-
This has been extremely useful - I've not had much success either in pots or in the ground, so thanks to all for giving us your secrets.
-
Anne,
I'm glad to share experiences - I've learnt so much from the members of this forum.
If we all throw our threepenn'orth into the ring then we all move forward together!
A photo of a couple of hybrid seedlings grown in perlite showing root development.
Neither have yet been big enough to flower, though may next year. They have both grown in the same 8 inch pot for three years and are now ready for their own.
Left is 'Pluto' and right is 'Philipp', both originally from Crustacare.
Two tiny kentuckiense seedlings in the same pot died in the first season, so it isn't a foolproof system,
Regards,
David
-
Can i ask would now be the best time to change over substrate,also why the 10% bark why not 100% perlite and could you use peat instead of bark?
-
Hi Davey,
Now is the ideal time to repot as the rhizome will be totally dormant. The organic matter provides some nutrients. If you used all perlite you would need to feed more often. Using peat would make the mix too acid and it tends to hold too much water thus reducing aeration. You could use bark, pine duff or leafmold depending on the species. The latter two need an alkaline buffer. I would not recommend 90% perlite. I prefer a mix of pumice, perlite, grit and organic matter. The mix is open enough but the perlite/pumice holds sufficient water to avoid drying out.
-
Hi, I grow my cyps in cages, because we are overrun by rabbits. Having tried all sorts of complicated composts, I have for the last three years opted for 'minimalism' and am now using just Seramis. The beauty of this is that the surface turns pale when dry so the compost tells me when to water. A double layer of shade netting in the pots stops the seramis from falling though the holes and deters wildlife coming in. I feed with every watering, high N in the spring and high P after flowering. They do fine and increase gently.
I agree with the concept of overpotting, it keeps temperature in the pot more even and generally cooler. This is particularly important in the spring in this area (Thames Valley south east of England), where we can get great fluctuations in temperature in winter/spring. One warm spell and the cyps think it's time to wake up only to be hit by frost later. Shading is therefore just as important in winter/spring as it is in the summer. Something to think of if plants are grown in the shade of deciduous shrubs or trees.
-
Hi Maren and Jeff,
despite all of us growing in different media, the characteristics of the compost are all very similar - very free draining and low nutrients. You could probably grow them in pure gravel or small rocks if you could lift the pots!
I've been looking at growth rates of the hybrids by looking back at the previous four years' photos.
I knew the plethora of images produced by a digital camera would come in useful someday.
They are fairly similar for Philipp, Inge and Michael.
They all seem to need about four years growth and gentle increase after becoming flowering size before they 'take off'.
The photo shows a close up of Inge this autumn.
You can see eight of the nine new shoots for next year as well as the three old growths from 2009.
It was bought in the winter of 2005/6 and first flowered in 2007.
Michael is a similar tale. It too was bought over winter 2005/6 but flowered for the first time the following spring. It too then took three years to reach 4 stems but then this autumn has taken off to eight new shoots.
Philipp is a year older and started to flower in 2006. By 2008 it had reached three stems but then has taken off to six then ten stems in the two following seasons.
By way of contrast, parviflorum var makasin started to flower in 2007 with three stems but has only increased by a single stem in each year following,
Regards,
David