Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: cohan on August 08, 2009, 09:27:02 PM
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hi all,
i'm trying to collect some seed from a few natives, and not too sure how to know when its ready to be picked...a couple i am looking at:
Anemone canadensis--this doesnt seem to have the feathery wind carried seeds, but rather is forming sort of of spiky balls; currently they are mostly green, some just starting to brown a little, but they can be prodded a bit, and they separate into a bunch of tightly packed seeds--no other material between --SO if i pick these green, can they just be dried and then they'd be ready to go? or do i need to let them brown/dry on the plant?
also Castilleja--the plants are still flowering, in most cases, but have old flowers which have formed seedpods which are blackish looking, but definitely moist inside..how should these be treated? ready to pick and let dry at this point?
Geum-working on the feathery seedheads, in some cases individual seeds can be pulled out by the tails, though still greenn..same question as above...
and again, same idea on native Fabaceae --Oxytropis, Hedysarum etc--if the 'peas' look well formed, are they good to go? i mean harvest, and let dry?
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The seeds can be shaken out of Castilleja seedheads easily when they are ready (I collect from the ones in my yard every year for seedexs)... if these are in a convenient spot to you, just return when they are dry.
The seedpods on the native legumes will look dry - tan or brown or black - when they are mature... though I'm not sure if collecting them green is detrimental or not, perhaps not. Same for geum - though I pick the seeds when they are dry.
Anemone canadensis doesn't form woolly seedheads (like for example A. multifida), so once they are dry, that's as good as it gets. NB. Very invasive, so you may want to be careful where you plant them. (On Kristl's Gardens North site, it is noted that it may be necessary to moist pack these, to retain viability... but then, lots of seeds are sent to seedexs without such careful and knowledgeable precautions... I'm just saying because I found it interesting.)
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The seeds can be shaken out of Castilleja seedheads easily when they are ready (I collect from the ones in my yard every year for seedexs)... if these are in a convenient spot to you, just return when they are dry.
The seedpods on the native legumes will look dry - tan or brown or black - when they are mature... though I'm not sure if collecting them green is detrimental or not, perhaps not. Same for geum - though I pick the seeds when they are dry.
Anemone canadensis doesn't form woolly seedheads (like for example A. multifida), so once they are dry, that's as good as it gets. NB. Very invasive, so you may want to be careful where you plant them. (On Kristl's Gardens North site, it is noted that it may be necessary to moist pack these, to retain viability... but then, lots of seeds are sent to seedexs without such careful and knowledgeable precautions... I'm just saying because I found it interesting.)
thanks for the input, lori...
the castilleja i have in mind are from a really nice colony a few miles up the road from here with a number of different colours all growing together...i can revisit without too much trouble--especially since we got one of the old bicycles in working shape today, so my 'neighbourhood' botanising just took a leap forward! (that's another subject, but i rode today on a back road i have never been on and found a really great area in a ditch [roadside] with gentians and lady's tresses orchids that i havent seen elsewhere around here, and, i think, developing seedheads of primula, besides flowering parnassia--which is everywhere here and others)..anyway, the advantage of harvesting the seed sooner, while the plants are still flowering, is that i could see what colour they are--not that i know that they would breed true in that mixed colony...
i thought other people might be interested in these seeds....
i could tell the anemones are not going to make the wooly seeds, that's why i was wondering if they need to be dry or not.. i'm not worried about the invasiveness-my intention is to plant them with plants they grow with in nature--i will broadcast some around my property in the sort of semi/open woods they grow in around here,and or in the patches of native bushes and flowers that are all over the yard, around tree bases and stumps etc... and if i plant some more specifically, i can give them a bed they can have all to themselves far from other things
i'm especially wondering about the green seeds issue for plants that dont grow right here, so i'd like to know if its worth collecting if they arent dry on the plant..
another i was wondering about was Geranium richardsonii..i'd assumed the seeds would be sprung away when fully ripe, and i'd never get them, but i found some today that had (hmm--no vocabulary for this!) the springs loaded and the seeds pulled out of the calyx ready to fire it seemed, but not firing, just sitting there...
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Generally Ranunculaceae are ready and will germinate when they are still quite green but come apart from their head when lightly touched. Think of Hepatica for instance, or any whose seed forms on the outside rather than in a receptacle. I think in general, Ranunculaceae are better not actually dried but sown as fresh as possible.
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Generally Ranunculaceae are ready and will germinate when they are still quite green but come apart from their head when lightly touched. Think of Hepatica for instance, or any whose seed forms on the outside rather than in a receptacle. I think in general, Ranunculaceae are better not actually dried but sown as fresh as possible.
good to know, lesely, thanks..
for the A canadense, that probably means when the heads are rather brown--when green, the seeds come apart, but not with a light touch, i'm sure they'd remain on the plant for quite some time..
mind you, we are nearly at the end of our frost free season (if we could be considered to have had one!) so it seems not very likely that in nature they will germinate before spring.. nonetheless, i can broadcast them anytime, and put some in pots and see what happens!
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In a situation when one does not know at all it can be helpful to consider the habitat.
Plants from woodland conditions tend to need moist packing and to need warm/cold/warm conditions to germinate.
Plants from meadows - and especially annuals tend to need s period of drying.
Göte
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In a situation when one does not know at all it can be helpful to consider the habitat.
Plants from woodland conditions tend to need moist packing and to need warm/cold/warm conditions to germinate.
Plants from meadows - and especially annuals tend to need s period of drying.
Göte
that's a useful observation, göte, thanks.. in this climate, its difficult to imagine very many species germinating in the same year as flowering, unless they flower very early, and even then--Caltha, for example, one of the earliest flowers here, still does not produce seed til midsummer, and by midsummer, its nearly over ;)
on the other hand, but its not a native, i planted a Viola labradorica this summer, and there are already seedlings all around it...lol
meanwhile i am waiting for kristl to have time to finish that book ;)
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on the other hand, but its not a native, i planted a Viola labradorica this summer, and there are already seedlings all around it...lol
You won't be LOLing much longer. Viola labradorica, with its dark leaves and blue-violet flowers, is one of the all-time worst pests sold as a garden plant. In your shoes, I'd go out and dig up every plant and make a note to watch like a hawk for stray seedlings.
Another vicious seeder among the violets is the one sold as "Viola arenaria rosea". It's a pretty rose-pink, but woe betide the gardener who foolishly plants it.
Both of these have deep roots requiring the use of a trowel to remove.
Most violet species seed around modestly but these two are so addicted to the practice as to make them unsatisfactory in any civilized planting.
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on the other hand, but its not a native, i planted a Viola labradorica this summer, and there are already seedlings all around it...lol
You won't be LOLing much longer. Viola labradorica, with its dark leaves and blue-violet flowers, is one of the all-time worst pests sold as a garden plant. In your shoes, I'd go out and dig up every plant and make a note to watch like a hawk for stray seedlings.
Another vicious seeder among the violets is the one sold as "Viola arenaria rosea". It's a pretty rose-pink, but woe betide the gardener who foolishly plants it.
Both of these have deep roots requiring the use of a trowel to remove.
Most violet species seed around modestly but these two are so addicted to the practice as to make them unsatisfactory in any civilized planting.
thanks for the warning, rodger..i think i read that it could be aggressive, so in fact, it is not in or near any civilised plantings ..my bigger concern is whether it will spread into native vegetation, although not that many exotics can cut it in the wild here, in front of the planting is a mowed area, and behind are mature spruce, but i will still be watching to see if it will spread into the 'lawn' where it would have to outcompete white clover, besides native woodland plants..if it starts to spread aggressively into the bush, it will go...
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You won't be LOLing much longer. Viola labradorica, with its dark leaves and blue-violet flowers, is one of the all-time worst pests sold as a garden plant. In your shoes, I'd go out and dig up every plant and make a note to watch like a hawk for stray seedlings.
Another vicious seeder among the violets is the one sold as "Viola arenaria rosea". It's a pretty rose-pink, but woe betide the gardener who foolishly plants it.
Being a violet enthusiast I can't leave that uncontradicted or at least I'll try to lessen it somewhat.
I cultivate both species since decades and they seed around pretty well indeed. But under my conditions (a heavy loamy soil) it is easy to remove any plant at a place where I don't accept it - the roots don't run too deep and in case a plant appears in a cushion of another rock garden plant most often it will be sufficient to remove the parts above ground to get rid of it.
Unlike a lot of the other violets both species flower reliably and I love the color which they bring into my beds. Especially Viola 'labradorica' looks very charming when it appeared at unexpected places - out of cracks in the garden wall for instance.
I must admit though that applies to my conditions and for someone who has a faible for violets. I noted some discussions about the weedyness of violets in other forums and it seems some species behave somewhat rude, especially in the US and Canada. There were questions about which weedkiller could be used against violets in lawns.
To reduce spreading by seeds it is recommended to remove all capsules before they are ripe (which could be a hard job indeed).
I want to add that the plant which is sold for Viola labradorica purpurea is a purple variant of the European Viola riviniana.
The 'real' labradorica is totally different and from the northeastern US and
Labrador - see pics.
Gerd
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You won't be LOLing much longer. Viola labradorica, with its dark leaves and blue-violet flowers, is one of the all-time worst pests sold as a garden plant. In your shoes, I'd go out and dig up every plant and make a note to watch like a hawk for stray seedlings.
Another vicious seeder among the violets is the one sold as "Viola arenaria rosea". It's a pretty rose-pink, but woe betide the gardener who foolishly plants it.
Being a violet enthusiast I can't leave that uncontradicted or at least I'll try to lessen it somewhat.
I cultivate both species since decades and they seed around pretty well indeed. But under my conditions (a heavy loamy soil) it is easy to remove any plant at a place where I don't accept it - the roots don't run too deep and in case a plant appears in a cushion of another rock garden plant most often it will be sufficient to remove the parts above ground to get rid of it.
Unlike a lot of the other violets both species flower reliably and I love the color which they bring into my beds. Especially Viola 'labradorica' looks very charming when it appeared at unexpected places - out of cracks in the garden wall for instance.
I must admit though that applies to my conditions and for someone who has a faible for violets. I noted some discussions about the weedyness of violets in other forums and it seems some species behave somewhat rude, especially in the US and Canada. There were questions about which weedkiller could be used against violets in lawns.
To reduce spreading by seeds it is recommended to remove all capsules before they are ripe (which could be a hard job indeed).
I want to add that the plant which is sold for Viola labradorica purpurea is a purple variant of the European Viola riviniana.
The 'real' labradorica is totally different and from the northeastern US and
Labrador - see pics.
Gerd
excellent information, gerd!
worth noting that rodger is in an area with hardly any winter, so that might make a difference...
re: violets as weeds, when i was in toronto, there were people who considered the common violet there (i dont know what species it was) to be a weed, but i didnt understand...lol ..as you say, not hard to remove if need be, and why would you not prefer violets to grass?? ;)
glad to know this plant is manageable--lets see first if it even survives my winter ;)
also very interesting on the names--the little reading i did suggested labradorica was a form of adunca, but that probably means the real species, although they showed pictures of the purple foliage plant which you say is rivianna, and that is what i have....
i also like arenaria rosea...lol ..but i also have a soft spot for violets...
the only meaningful definition of invasive for me would be if the plant were to spread aggressively into the natural habitat around me..that i could not allow...
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and why would you not prefer violets to grass?? ;)
Hear Hear! (or is it Read Read ??? )
I have never understood why the "floor" of a garden must look like green paint on concrete. ;) And, by the way, a sure way to avoid violas is to use green paint on concrete. ;D
I have mosses in the grass and they are nice to walk barefoot on. Achillea millefolium is green in a drought when the grass is brown. Many small bulbs flourish in the grass and in the spring the "floor" can be yelow with Eranthis, Blue with Scilla siberica, White-blue with Chionodoxa, or many coloured with Crocus.
In the autumn it can be blue or white with Crocus speciosus.
Cheers
Göte
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also very interesting on the names--the little reading i did suggested labradorica was a form of adunca, but that probably means the real species, although they showed pictures of the purple foliage plant which you say is rivianna, and that is what i have....
Cohan,
The taxonomic position of Viola labradorica seems to be doubtful - an American friend told me that it also could be near to Viola conspersa (also to adunca - as you already wrote). I must admit that I'm not up to date.
Gerd
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I have never understood why the "floor" of a garden must look like green paint on concrete.
The American economist Thorsten Veblen explained that about a century ago. Look for his "Theory of the Leisure Class".
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I have never understood why the "floor" of a garden must look like green paint on concrete.
The American economist Thorsten Veblen explained that about a century ago. Look for his "Theory of the Leisure Class".
Crumbs, Rodger.... you must be older than you look? ;D ;)
sorry! couldn't resist ! :-*
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also very interesting on the names--the little reading i did suggested labradorica was a form of adunca, but that probably means the real species, although they showed pictures of the purple foliage plant which you say is rivianna, and that is what i have....
Cohan,
The taxonomic position of Viola labradorica seems to be doubtful - an American friend told me that it also could be near to Viola conspersa (also to adunca - as you already wrote). I must admit that I'm not up to date.
Gerd
thanks gerd--really it doesn't matter to me yet, since the plant i have is apparently not the real labradorica, anyway..lol
göte--your garden must be a delightful place :) i'f like to have bulbs in my grass too, but i have a feeling most of my yard is too shady for that..native woodland species are successful, though
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I have never understood why the "floor" of a garden must look like green paint on concrete.
The American economist Thorsten Veblen explained that about a century ago. Look for his "Theory of the Leisure Class".
Crumbs, Rodger.... you must be older than you look? ;D ;)
sorry! couldn't resist ! :-*
I'm just well-read, perhaps overly well-read. To demonstrate that fact, I will mention that my latest purchases include Spinoza's Tractatus Theologico-politicus and the works of Thomas Paine. Thorsten Veblen is a mere bijou from my mis-spent youth.
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I have never understood why the "floor" of a garden must look like green paint on concrete.
The American economist Thorsten Veblen explained that about a century ago. Look for his "Theory of the Leisure Class".
Crumbs, Rodger.... you must be older than you look? ;D ;)
sorry! couldn't resist ! :-*
In football, you'd make a great center forward Maggi (and make loads of money...), you hardly ever miss a chance. ;D :-X ;)
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Rodger, I do not believe it possible to be TOO well-read---- especially if one is an author ;) ;D
Luc, you are too kind.... if you only knew how often I hold back...... ::) :P :-X
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I have never understood why the "floor" of a garden must look like green paint on concrete.
The American economist Thorsten Veblen explained that about a century ago. Look for his "Theory of the Leisure Class".
Crumbs, Rodger.... you must be older than you look? ;D ;)
sorry! couldn't resist ! :-*
I'm just well-read, perhaps overly well-read. To demonstrate that fact, I will mention that my latest purchases include Spinoza's Tractatus Theologico-politicus and the works of Thomas Paine. Thorsten Veblen is a mere bijou from my mis-spent youth.
I wish I had the time to read Spinoza - but I would probably prefer to stick to Shonagon.
Göte
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By the way I physically refute Veblen.
I am a dolichocephal and was fairly blond as a kid and I joke about green concrete ;D
His theories are utter rubbish.
Göte
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Don't think I'll dare speak to Rodger direct again, probably to Gote either. I'll do it through you Maggi, or through God. ::)
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Don't think I'll dare speak to Rodger direct again, probably to Gote either. I'll do it through you Maggi, or through God. ::)
Not to worry, Lesley, none of these old writers knew a ripe seed from a theory, so we needn't fret. ;D
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By the way I physically refute Veblen. ...His theories are utter rubbish.
I've always had a fondness for his explanation of the Anglo-Saxon taste for green sward in gardens. He asserts that it's because the ancestors of northern Europeans were sheep herders, so a green field dotted with sheep was a thing of special beauty. Indeed, when you stop and think about it, any large lawn would look better for having a few sheep on it.
Just how this inherent taste is stamped on successive generations, esp. once the people left the land for the cities, Veblen does not explain.
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Don't think I'll dare speak to Rodger direct again, probably to Gote either. I'll do it through you Maggi, or through God. ::)
Fear not, Lesley. It's true that 40 years ago I amused my friends (and startled my enemies) by proposing to become a sybil living in a cave in the Sooke Hills (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=48.438768,-123.674469&spn=0.188591,0.440826&t=p&z=11) and writing oracular utterances on dried oak¹ leaves, but the monetary side of that career choice didn't look too promising. And besides, have you ever looked closely at the Sibyls in the Sistine Chapel frescoes by Michelangelo? Cripey, it would take some serious surgical rearrangement of the olde bodie to get the right look!
I have a funny idea Maggi is preparing a new thread "Sibylline utterances" and will be moving our sillier postings to it. But after all, it's August, the silly season in the northern hemisphere.
¹. specifically the leaves of Quercus garryana, a native of the Pacific NW.
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Indeed, when you stop and think about it, any large lawn would look better for having a few sheep on it.
Not when they've come in from a neighbour's place, tramped up the drive and through the rock garden to get there. >:(
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Indeed, when you stop and think about it, any large lawn would look better for having a few sheep on it.
Not when they've come in from a neighbour's place, tramped up the drive and through the rock garden to get there. >:(
no sheep arriving here, but the neighbour's cattle do.. it seems no one can really afford to make fences adequate to keep youngsters in if they decide to get out, luckily most adults are too lazy to bother..fortunately no damage so far...
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By the way I physically refute Veblen. ...His theories are utter rubbish.
I've always had a fondness for his explanation of the Anglo-Saxon taste for green sward in gardens. He asserts that it's because the ancestors of northern Europeans were sheep herders, so a green field dotted with sheep was a thing of special beauty. Indeed, when you stop and think about it, any large lawn would look better for having a few sheep on it.
Just how this inherent taste is stamped on successive generations, esp. once the people left the land for the cities, Veblen does not explain.
i looked a little on Veblen on the net and found ideas that I find not very attractive. In principle he seems to think that we are collecting plants because the super rich do that and we want to emulate them. Maybe I found the wrong quotations.
Göte.
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Don't think I'll dare speak to Rodger direct again, probably to Gote either. I'll do it through you Maggi, or through God. ::)
I suggest that you devote some googling to the word shonagon. You might be pleasantly suroprised
Göte
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What a silly man. ??? The super rich in NZ don't collect plants, they collect Porsches, Maseratis, super yachts etc.
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What a silly man. ??? The super rich in NZ don't collect plants, they collect Porsches, Maseratis, super yachts etc.
i havent read any of the original, but sounds like its all about the origins of the middle class, emulating the landed aristocracy with their conservatories and gardens and staff ...and i'm sure there was a lot of that sort of emulation, and no doubt echoes of it still, though a lot of other social factors have come into play in the intervening centuries, and doesn't have so much to do with we complusive plant folk as, maybe, public parks and 'perfect' suburban lawns etc etc..there certainly has to be some great historical/psychological reason to explain lawns, because there certainly isnt a logical one!! ;)
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Sheesh! ???..... and I thought that some of MY postings got off topic at times. ;D ;D :D
8)
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i'm trying to collect some seed from a few natives, and not too sure how to know when its ready to be picked...a couple i am looking at:
Anemone canadensis--this doesnt seem to have the feathery wind carried seeds, but rather is forming sort of of spiky balls; currently they are mostly green, some just starting to brown a little, but they can be prodded a bit, and they separate into a bunch of tightly packed seeds--no other material between --SO if i pick these green, can they just be dried and then they'd be ready to go? or do i need to let them brown/dry on the plant?
Cohan,
Just catching up on this thread...and I believe your question has been mostly answered by other members. I'd like to add these couple comments:
Regarding Anemone: there is general guidance that is *mostly* true that the spring blooming, non-fluff making Anemone species are ephemeral (Anemone canadensis, nemorosa, ranunculoides, etc).
The later blooming species which produce their seed in fluff are collected fully dry and stored dry, when the "fluff is fluffing" (when it has become loose and open and ready to fly off).
The early species normally make "hard" seed and can be, as has been said, taken when they are still at the greenish stage BUTcome off the receptacle easily. If this is still "tight" and at the early phase of development, these will end up having immature embryos and will rot. The ideal stage is when they are wanting of fall off on their own (have loosened).
While Ranunculaceae members should be carefully looked at it terms of potentially short viability; it is NOT TRUE that all members of the clan have this trait. Most importantly: each member needs to be considered individually. For instance, Trollius seed. Many species have seed of long viability, stored dry. And yet, Trollius laxus should be moist packed after collection, or sown immediately.
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i'm trying to collect some seed from a few natives, and not too sure how to know when its ready to be picked...a couple i am looking at:
Anemone canadensis--this doesnt seem to have the feathery wind carried seeds, but rather is forming sort of of spiky balls; currently they are mostly green, some just starting to brown a little, but they can be prodded a bit, and they separate into a bunch of tightly packed seeds--no other material between --SO if i pick these green, can they just be dried and then they'd be ready to go? or do i need to let them brown/dry on the plant?
Cohan,
Just catching up on this thread...and I believe your question has been mostly answered by other members. I'd like to add these couple comments:
Regarding Anemone: there is general guidance that is *mostly* true that the spring blooming, non-fluff making Anemone species are ephemeral (Anemone canadensis, nemorosa, ranunculoides, etc).
The later blooming species which produce their seed in fluff are collected fully dry and stored dry, when the "fluff is fluffing" (when it has become loose and open and ready to fly off).
The early species normally make "hard" seed and can be, as has been said, taken when they are still at the greenish stage BUTcome off the receptacle easily. If this is still "tight" and at the early phase of development, these will end up having immature embryos and will rot. The ideal stage is when they are wanting of fall off on their own (have loosened).
While Ranunculaceae members should be carefully looked at it terms of potentially short viability; it is NOT TRUE that all members of the clan have this trait. Most importantly: each member needs to be considered individually. For instance, Trollius seed. Many species have seed of long viability, stored dry. And yet, Trollius laxus should be moist packed after collection, or sown immediately.
thanks, kristl..
i just have some A canadensis seed now, it was ranging green to brown and coming off very easily.. i'm not sending out much, a couple packs--should i be moist packing it?
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it all depends on how long you imagine having it around at your end, and how long it will be in the mail. always good to do it, just to be on the safe side---and then there is absolutely no pressure on the recipients to even sow it immediately, as viability will be kept protected in that way.
i use barely moist vermiculite as the best alternative for moist packing. no cleaning to be done with this. just rub it apart into the individual sections, like an orange, and mix with the moist vermiculite.
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it all depends on how long you imagine having it around at your end, and how long it will be in the mail. always good to do it, just to be on the safe side---and then there is absolutely no pressure on the recipients to even sow it immediately, as viability will be kept protected in that way.
i use barely moist vermiculite as the best alternative for moist packing. no cleaning to be done with this. just rub it apart into the individual sections, like an orange, and mix with the moist vermiculite.
thanks, that's what i will do then... i got some vermiculite recently in case it was needed..lol