Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: andré B on June 07, 2009, 05:39:28 PM
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Ok Paddy here we go. Flowering now in my garden Cardiocrinum giganteum var yunanense. This is the second time in 9 years that this cardiocrinum has a flowering stem. It is about
2 meters high. It draws in the Lily Beetles like mad and I have to be very vigilant.
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Andre,
Delighted you posted your photograph. It is a magnificant flower. It also allowed me the opportunity to compare it to mine because I have had doubts about my naming. I think mine might be Cardiocrinum cordatum. As you see mine has petals which are quite green compared to the white in yours. Your opinion?
I notice also, Andre, that you have several smaller bulbs beside the flowering spike so you should have flowers again within a few years.
Any opinions from anyone else who grows cardiocrinums re the identity of mine?
Photographs posted again below for comparison with Andre's.
Paddy
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Paddy,
As to your cardiocrinums, I have unearthed a copy of the New Plantsman of december 2002 where there is an article by Victoria a. Matthews on Cardiocrinums with a determination key. I am not a trained botanist but some parts of this article are relevant to the plants in your picture. First it would seem from my picture that the flowers are a clear white but in the article it is said that in giganteum var yunanense the flowers are very green in the early stages. Actually the flowers on my plant where not so very green but you can still see some greenness if you look carefully. Perhaps a much more important difference between giganteum var giganteum/yunanense and cordatum/cathayanum is the fact that in cordatum/cathayanum the lower half to one third of the stem are bare (have no leaves) whereas in giganteum the leaves are evenly spread over the whole stem. In fact it is said that cordatum/cathayanum can have the leaves in a pseudo-whirl of 6 leaves halfway up the stem. As for cordatum it is said that the flowers are creamy white with a yellow blotch towards the base and reddish marks (no green mentioned). furthermore it is stated that in cordatum the flowers are carried horizontally or erect and that in cordatum the lower flowers open first whereas in giganteum var yunanense the flowers start to open from the top. In the article a picture of the flower of giganteum var yunanense is published that looks very much like the one on my plant.
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Paddy, a nice little surprise when I went up the garden this morning. This is supposedly Cardiocrinum cordatum var glehnii. The C. yunnanense were enormous in Bide-a-Wee, my plant is around four foot in old money ie 1.10 metres. Hope that is of some help.
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Andre and Brian,
Many thanks for the information and comments. From the photographs I posted, what name would you attach to my plant?
Paddy
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Paddy, et al,
one of the key differences between giganteum and cordatum is the subtended bract on the flowers of cordatum. Your plant does not have floral bracts, therefore is not cordatum. Flower colour is always a poor indicator, as variances are possible due to genetics, as well as weather and culture, just as with most plants. I would call yours C. giganteum var yunnanese, although the sub-species is apparently not considered valid by most botanist as the main difference is the flowering from the top of the scape, instead of from the lower part of the raceme and this is not a stable characteristic in wild populations.
I hope you will be able to share seed of this plant, as the colouring is quite fabulous.
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Brian,
on your plant I can't see if there are floral bracts or not. Do you have the issue of The New PLantsman that André mentioned? In the fotos of C. cordatum, the bracts are clearly seen.
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Yes Jamie, there are quite large bracts, one under each flower, now falling off easily, as you can see they are brown at the stem end. Perhaps as they seem to drop off easily that is why Paddy's seems bractless?
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Brian,
Yup, those are definitely bract scars! Do you remember when they start to drop? As the flowers can stay pretty fresh for 2 weeks, I take it this must happen a while after opening.
Paddy,
take a look at your flowers for bract scar, if you haven't already moseyed out to admire your beauty once again.
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Grotty photos I'm afraid but here they are again. Today was the first opening of a flower so they drop pretty quickly I'd say. Does that help Paddy?
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Jamie,
Many thanks for your help with the cardiocrinum. Brian's photographs show flowers which are exactly the same as those in my garden and I have been out to confirm the presence of the bracts so I can now feel sure it is C. cordatum var glehnii.
As regards seed, I am confident that there will be a good set and will have plenty to share and you are most welcome to them. However, do remind me!
Brian, thanks for the photos, an exact copy of my plants.
Paddy
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Re Cardiocrinum.
#1: Last year we had a topic called: "Lilium and allies (Cardiocrinum. Notholirion and Nomocharis) 2008" Under Bulbs general.
I think that these plants deserve a more permanent place as a subgroup under 'Specific Families and Genera'. The group is vastly larger than Hepatica and also meconopsis which both have their permanent place. As it now is we are cluttering up 'Flowers and foliage now' with a taxonomic dscussion about a single genus of three-four species.
#2: Unfortunately I do not have the plantsman so the following observations must be considered perhaps ill-informed.
C. Giganteum occupies a vast area from the Himalayas into Central China. It seems to be quite variable.
The western ones seem to have funnel shaped flowers with the tepals held together more or less like a lilium longiflorum. They die in my winters.
The eastern ones have flowers that are kind of floppy with tepals separated and also the upper ones slightly drooping. They survive my winters.
Both are tall 2m and upwards but can be scared into premature flowering by replanting stress. I had one not 30cm high.
Flora of China says that var yunnanensis has whiter flowers and is shorter whereas v. giganteum has greenish. My own observation is that it seems to have better trumpets. The leaves are bronze when emerging.
Giganteum has largish bracts that look like tepals and cover the bud. They fall off early. When the stalk is emerging the bud looks lice a kind of conifer cone with the bracts being the scales.
The bottom of the stalk can be devoid of leaves for the first 2-4 decimeters.
Cathayanum is said to have persistent bracts but I fail to see them in the pictures. The leaves on the stalk on a Cardiocrinum start from below with stalked cordate shapes that gradually changes into bractlike triangular green leaves that clasp the stalk at the top. The LOWEST flowers seem to have such bracts. Higher up they become tepal-like and fall off. Pictures purporting to be cathayanum show these bracts to the lower few flowers whereas the upper ones are naked as in giganteum. The original description may have been made from a stunted specimen that flowered prematurely in England in 1939. The picture in Haw's book shows bracts but the inflorescense is stunted so these lower bracts crowd the flowers.
I am confused. ??? I posted a picture of what I believed to be yunnanense with no bracts in the top of the infloresence, greenish bract at the bottom No whorl of leaf but no leaf at the bottom part of the stalk. It fits the description of all three Chinese variants. I get the impression that the taxonomists as so often have built the names on too scanty material that partly comes from atypical plants.
In Japan one can find C. cordatum. It has the same bract arrangement, and drooping flowers. The picture in Lilies of the world shows a leaf whorl. The pictures in my Japanese floras do the same.
Göte
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I think that these plants deserve a more permanent place as a subgroup under 'Specific Families and Genera'.
Good point: I'll look into doing that. 8)
I have moved the Cardiocrinum discusssion to its own thread meantime, and into Bulbs General. 8)
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I keep taking pictures meaning to post them on the Forum but never get round to processing them because I spend so lng reading other people's posts. It's been raining all day today so I've spent a while at the computer this afternoon. I have one Cardiocrinum giganteum flowering this year at over 6 feet tall. The following pictures show it's development from 28 May to 10 July. I haven't looked today but think the flowers will be falling apart.
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Very impressive Roma !
Nice to see how it develops.
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Lovely set of photographs, Roma. Great plant.
Paddy
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.....there was an article on Cardiocrinums in the June edition of 'The Plantsman' by Peter Cox.....
(it's only 4 pages, so could scan and email, if of interest).
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Wow, what a great set of time lapse photos, Roma, and the Cardiocrinum flower is fabulous - it must have been wonderful to see it develop in to such a beauty ;)
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Just to keep the theme going, here are a few pictures taken at Logan Gardens on the 26 June. The close up of the flowers was taken on the smaller plants which were about 6 feet high. The two tallest ones were an estimated 10 feet high. Not much use for smelling the flowers unless you are a giant or have a stepladder!
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I would most certainly be very grateful for any recent info on Cardiocrinum because I am still confused. This year I will have no flowering spcimen so I have no pictures.
Nice set of photos Roma. This is very helpful since the progression of the flowers seem to be part of the issue.
Question: Do you know anything about the original provenience? Himalayas or China?
Logan gardens plants: Same question?? It seems that old pictures show this trumpet form and that it is more prevalent in the western part of the area where they grow.
One point I would look for is: Are there any basal leaves on the flowering stalk?
Göte
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Gote, the article should now be in your 'home' email inbox.
Giles
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Gote, the article should now be in your 'home' email inbox.
Giles
Indeed it is Thank you very much indeed.
Göte
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Gote,
I do not know the origin of my Cardiocrinum. I got small bulbs when I was working at the Cruickshank Garden at Aberden University. It was growing there when I started in 1977 and was always propagated vegetatively by division of the bulbs. I keep meaning to try it from seed but do not have a lot of space and get enough new bulbs to keep it going anyway. There are no basal leaves.
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Gote,
I do not know the origin of my Cardiocrinum. I got small bulbs when I was working at the Cruickshank Garden at Aberden University. It was growing there when I started in 1977 and was always propagated vegetatively by division of the bulbs. I keep meaning to try it from seed but do not have a lot of space and get enough new bulbs to keep it going anyway. There are no basal leaves.
Thank you Roma,
That would confirm my guess that they are from the Himalayas. I think the Chinese ones are fairly recent introductions.
I have no basal leaves either on my Chinese ones.
however, some authors state that they have - i wonder wether they are mistaken or wether this is also a variable trait.
Cheers
Göte
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how envy to you, I have tried for four years, succeed to having bulbs in spring, the beginning well, but to July they die, some council? :'(
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It might be too dry/warm in Italy. I would try a shaded position and make sure they have enough water.
they want very humusy soil
Göte
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Alessandro,
I grow them here on the south side (i.e shaded side) of the house in a fernery situation. I grew my original one in a raised "box" with no base, so that the roots could grow down into the ground below, but the bulb itself had perfect drainage. Just to be sure. I have had it (or others since) growing there fine for a number of years. They die off during winter, then reshoot in spring. I keep the moisture up (it is a fernery situation, so other things that like moisture are in the area such as ferns etc) but I do have good drainage there for them. I just love the leaves, even on the years they they don't flower. I am growing up a younger replacement now, after my main one flowered out a few years ago. Looking forward to it getting big enough to flower.
Not sure if this helps you in your climate or not, but with Göte commenting that you might be too hot and dry, I thought it was worthwhile chiming in from a hot and dry climate where I can grow them just fine. Hopefully it is of some help? ???
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Alessandro,
If Paul can grow them you can. I did not want to sound pessimistic only point out that you might need to do approximately what Paul does.
Göte
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Alessandro,
And they definitely flower in my climate too..... I've had 3 years where they flowered (2 single stems and one year 2 bulbs flowered). It was only that year when the 2 flowered that I had no offsets left to grow on. I had bought a 4 years old bulb that year anyway, so it is growing along each year. I probably should try feeding it up a bit to get to large enough to offset and then flower. I also have a half dozen or so seedlings coming along, but they're still pretty small as yet. When they flower they produce HEAPS of seed, but the seeds take something like 10 years to get to flowering, so it is a loooong wait. ;D If there is any other information I can give you from my experiences of growing there here, let me know and I'll provide any info I can. 8)
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G'day--I know that cardiocrinums are propagated by seed and offsets, but somebody asked on a forum if they could also be propagated by scales, in the same manner as liliums.I don't recall any answer.
Just curious.
Regards Paul Rumkorf
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G'day--I know that cardiocrinums are propagated by seed and offsets, but somebody asked on a forum if they could also be propagated by scales, in the same manner as liliums.I don't recall any answer.
Just curious.
Regards Paul Rumkorf
INteresting Idea. i do not know either but I will try
Göte