Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: Roberto G on April 02, 2009, 07:41:40 AM
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Dear friends
here the images of podophyllum peltatum? growm from seeds and emerging now with nice marbled young leaves
Roberto
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Wow, Robin, this Paris is unbelievable !
My first ones appear in the first half of march, but as I don't have that many I can protect them with glass bells and the like - anyway the leaves don't seem to be too sensitive towards a little frost.
Roberto, I think you have sown P. hexandrum, they look just like my young plants of this species.
Cheers,
Michael
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this page seems to involve podophyllum so I will post a couple of pictures and some information.
Here are two plants just starting into growth.The first illustrates the amazing colour that occurs in some of the leaves. In the epimedium book which covers podophyllum it says how unbelievable it is that the plant packs its flowers and leaves which are complex into the terminal bud in the autumn.The second picture shows it unfurling,leaves and flowers.
Last spring I only had two plants flower and this occured some five weeks apart. I took the stamens of one plant and put them in the fridge until the second one flowered and used them to pollinate it.This produced two berries one of which rotted.The second stayed on the plant for over four months with no visible sign of softening to show it was ripe.I cut this of at the end of October and extracted about 60 seeds.These have proved to be fertile and have now germinated.I think it was Dysosma delavayi
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Last spring I only had two plants flower and this occured some five weeks apart. I took the stamens of one plant and put them in the fridge until the second one flowered and used them to pollinate it.
Tony,
Were the two flowering plants different species?
Robin
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Robin
no they were the same species. I think the flowering times may have been influenced by the light and water supply.One was in much deeper shade than the other.
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Hi all,
Higher up in this topic (02/11/2008) I posted pics of cotyledons of Podophyllum species.
Here are some pictures of the same (+1) species, a season later with their first real leaf:
1) P. aurantiocaule
2) P. difforme
3) P. mairei
4) P. pleianthum
and P. delavayi
At this stage I normally pot up the Podophyllum seedlings.
Robin
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Robin
very interesting to see these.It would appear that auranticaule,mairei, and pleianthum are very similar in their young stages.I will be interested to see mature plants to see the differences.
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Robin,
Oh the leaves on difforme. :o Super!! I only dimly recall the species, but do they remain looking like that as they mature? And those lovely leaves on the delaveyi. Would be a pleasure to grow those just for the leaves along, but then the flowers are so cool as well. ;D Excellent pics, and valuable information for those growing Paris from seed. Here, I'm wanting spring to hurry up in some ways, so that I can hopefully get some Paris seed germination from your seed you sent me earlier this year. ;D But then I don't want to skip all the Galanthus and other lovelies, so I don't really want spring to hurry up. ;)
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I wonder if someone can these two Podophyllum (Dysosma). I can re-post when they are a bit more developed.
Picture #1 & #2 was tentatively labelled veitchii (?) and #3 as pleianthum.
thanks
johnw
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John,
I think your podos are labelled correctly.
Robin
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Hi all,
Here are some pics of mature Podos, from seed sown in 2003.
1) Podophyllum pleianthum
2) Podophyllum delavayi (= veitchii)
3) Podophyllum hybrid (difforme x delavayi pollen) on the left and P. difforme on the right.
Robin
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Robin,
OK, that confirms it... I have to grow delaveyi and difforme. ;D Spectacular leaves!!!!!!!!! 8)
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John,
I think your podos are labelled correctly.
Robin
Robin - Your Galanthus & Podophyllum postings have my head spinning, green vertigo.
Thanks for the identification confirmations. Just found another Podophyllum - we had Spotty Dotty and Kaleidoscope (where do these two fit in the genus?) but lost one of them and the label on the survivor, may require your assistance later.
By the way, a friend who gave a talk here last month said he bought a dwarf P. pleianthum in the UK last year, I'm not certain if it was ex a propagation or just one very lucky purchase.
Will pleianthum cross with veitchii or hexandrum?
Did you produce your own Podophyllum seed or was it purchased?
Shots of two veitchii from Philip McD.
johnw
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Spectacular, John. Very nice!! :o
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we had Spotty Dotty and Kaleidoscope (where do these two fit in the genus?
John,
I think both are P. delavayi x difforme hybrids. They show characteristics of both species.
Will pleianthum cross with veitchii or hexandrum?
I have one young hybrid veitchii(delavayi) x pleianthum. I tried to cross P. hexandrum with pleianthum several times without success. It's also possible to cross P. peltatum with P. pleianthum and delavayi. The cross between P pleianthum and P peltatum (pollen) has been successfully made by Jim McClements and is called P x inexpectatum, a very nice plant.
Did you produce your own Podophyllum seed or was it purchased?
All my Podophyllums are grown from seed produced by my own plants.
Robin
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Thanks for that Robin. Perhaps I will have a shot at some hybridizing with Podophyllum peltatum pollen. It would be nice to use the pink flowered form. Does Podophyllum pollen require refrigerator drying?
johnw
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John have you seen my posting no 91 on the 7th April concerning storing the pollen. It was very successful in the fridge.
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John have you seen my posting no 91 on the 7th April concerning storing the pollen. It was very successful in the fridge.
Thanks for the reminder Tony. Sounds easy enough, hopefully I can find someone with P. peltatum for pollen. It was a terrific weed here that almost defied eradication. Robin mentions using pollen of peltatum but I wonder if crosses will work in reverse.
On the way to work this morning I was wondering if anyone has treated sprouting Podophyllum seedlings with colchicine or surflan. Might be interesting to see how big & thick the leaves would get, also the prospect of coming up with chromosome matches. re: the latter I will have to look at the Epimedium book to see if there are counts for the species as I know little about them.
johnw
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Robin
I am interested in your naming of the various podophyllum species and let me say at the start I am not suggesting you are incorrect.
I obtained mine from China and they came with a variety of names some clearly wrong. I have used Stern’s book to try and sort them out. Both P. delavayi and difforme seem clear, see my pictures of delavayi. I only have a small difforme and have not photographed it.
In your post 99 on the 18th April you showed a picture of Podophyllum pleianthum which corresponds in appearance with some of my plants. Looking at the key in Stearn for pleianthum, he states that with an odd exception the flowers are held in the fork of the leaves and in versipelle on the petiole. On all my plants that look like yours they are held on the petiole, see my picture podophyllum 1 showing both the leaves and an underside view of the flowers.
In the case of podophyllum 2 this is again similar but this has three leaves again with the flowers on the uppermost petiole.
Where are the flowers held on yours?
If you look at podophyllum 3 this has leaves like delavayi without the colour seen in that species and the general size and shape of the plant is like delavayi but the flowers are again held on the petiole.
Finally looking at podophyllum 4 this has deeply divided leaves with the flowers on the petiole but it is a much smaller plant than pleianthum/versipelle and seems quite distinct from them.
Teeth and hairs on the leaves seem variable and not a consistent factor.
Apart from delavayi I have no plants with the flowers in the fork
I have raised some of these plants from seed but it is unlikely that they have hybridised.
He does of course in his introduction to the section give the species numbers as 2-12
I would welcome your comments.
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Tony - I await Robin's take on the Podophyllums as well. For the last 4 nights I sat down after supper with Stearn and after a half an hour I am more confused than ever. I think I will have to put together a spreadsheet in excel, list the species and id traits to make sense (?) of it all and see where that leaves things.
I talked to the friend that gave me two plants labelled "veitchii" and he says they may be hybrids - perhaps delavayi x difforme!
Page 276 the Stearn book says of P. pleianthum x verispelle "pleianthum which sometimes produces the inflorescence along the petiole". I not so happy with sometimes on one page and, as you say, "with the odd exception" on anothert. Compare pg. 272 Stearn drawing of pleianthum with pg 39 of Phillips & Rix. My pleianthum ex cw seed The Rhododendron Species Foundation pleianthums near Seattle are fork-flowerers.
Twenty years ago the emodiis sold around here were small flowered and with rather uninteresting new growth, now they all seem to be rather good.
Sounds like we may be too cold here for versipelle (though there is a var. sichuanense which might do) and auranticole. Would you agree?
johnw
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Hi all, super pictures and very interesting information, I think we have a lot to learn about Podophyllum especialy those imported from China, the more pictures we post the better it gets, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Friends
Here more paris flowering here. The first one is rather small about 8 cm tall with several nice small leaves. The other one has dark filaments and is about 15 cm tall. Both are growing for their first year in pots.
Thank you again for help in identification. Any idea if they could be self pollinated or if they cross pollinate? I could try to collect some pollen if someone is interested in.
Roberto
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Hi Roberto,
The first Paris has the looks of P. lancifolia but P. lancifolia is normally about 70 cm tall.
The second one is P. delavayi. No doubt.
Robin
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Tony,
Podo 1: Before going in to the discussion whether this a P. pleianthum or versipelle I want to make some pics of my own plants.
Podo 2: what do the flowers look like on this one?
Podo 3&4: These look very interesting, they seem to have characteristics from both P. delavayi and pleiathum/versipelle.
Where are the flowers positioned, what do they look like and are these plants grown from seed?
Robin
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Robin
the flowers are not yet developed on any of the pdophyllums and are at very early bud stage.
I expect those on podo 2 are going to be the same as on podo 1
On podo 3 & 4 the flowers(still buds) are positioned on the petiole
I grew these from my own seed.
Remember that I got all the original plants (except one which I think came from Aberconwy nursery as delavayi) from China. I imported them myself and they came with a variety of names some of which were clearly wrong. This is part of the problem of me trying to name them.Some may even be the same clones sent as different plants. They were all dormant rootstocks.
I realise we need to look at the flowers and this may present a problem as I am going to California/Oregon on Wednesday for a couple of weeks and they may flower whilst I am away.Hopefully they will develop slowly and we can still see them when I get back.
The two auranticaule you sent me are growing well and are in leaf,thank you.
You will see that johnw has some he is also trying to identify.
Its an interesting subject involving some really good plants.
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Happy to report Podophyllum pleianthum has made it through its first winter here. And in a spot where the ground was frozen.
Maggi - It might make sense to move the Podophyllum postings to its own topic?
johnw
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Maggi - It might make sense to move the Podophyllum postings to its own topic?
johnw
I have split off the Pod Talk! May have missed one or two posts, will check more fully later.
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Some of the podophyllums are now in flower.
Here are some pictures of both the foliage and the flowers. I have decided with the help of Stearn's book on the identification.
Podophyllum delavayii
Podophyllum mairei (this looks just like pleianthum/versipelle from the foliage but has different flowers)
Podophyllum pleianthum but this may be versipelle.
I have then taken of some flowers and show these seperately.
At the moment I have only one delavayi in flower and have stored the pollen. I have two of each of the others in flower but each may be the same clone and so will not set seed although I may get hybrid sed if it ever gets warm and dry enough for the flys to get around. They all smell awful.
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When I used to look through the seedlist, I'd always choose seeds of
plants I did not have. Then I read that plants in commerce were often
not representative of the species, that there was often great variation
in the wild.
I changed my tactics. If I already had a plant which grew well for me,
I would order seeds of it, particularly wild-collected seed, though not
exclusively.
Podophyllum hexandrum is one such plant. Here is a box of seedlings,
some from seed labelled plain hexandrum, some hexandrum Rosea,
both from society lists, and some collected in Kanding, Sichuan, bought
from the Pilous seedlist.
Unfortunately my labels migrated, so I'm not sure which plants came
from which seeds.
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Tony,
That P. delavayi is a stunner. Glorious flowers and foliage. Amazing. :o
Diane,
What a range of leaf forms and colours. 8)
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I was wondering what this lovely Podophyllum is. I must have had it for a while, but this is the first time it has flowered. I suspect that I cut up the roots when I got it as I have quite a few flowering plants this year. It is only 10cm high at the moment but no doubt it will get bigger, flowers are large for the size of plant. It has furry leaves .
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Susan,
This is P. aurantiocaule subsp. aurantiocaule. This species is the last Podophyllum to emerge.
It has hears on both surfaces of the leafs and a mixture of teeth and hairs on the margins of the leafs. (only this species has this)
Robin
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Thanks Robin, it certainly has lovely flowers as well as leaves. Hope it sets seed.
Susan
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This was bought as Podophyllum versipelle and is growing in a friend's garden here. About a week or more from flowering. Does it appear correct?
johnw
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John,
I think we should wait untill your friend's plant flowers before deciding wheter this is Podophyllum versipelle or pleianthum.
Robin
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Robin - There are two shots of my Podophyllum pleianthum in flower. Not quite open and a bit redder live. The source was the Rhododendron Species Foundation. What do you think?
johnw
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John
that is what I am calling versipelle(at the moment) I saw some plants on Amand's display at Chelsea and the ones he had labelled versipelle looked like mine. He had others labelled pleianthum with very different shaped leaves.I could not see the flowers. I wonder if they are all just variations on a theme and have been split.
Robin you have not commented on my post No.27 on the 20th May about those I labelled mairei. What do you think of those small cupped shaped flowers?
Here are another two pictures of my No 3 which I posted on the 22nd May,post No 18.
It appears to have leaves similar to delavayi but you will see it has versipelle/pleianthum flowers!!
A picture of one of the versipelle which is now 45inches tall and 40 inches across.They are certainly not small delicate woodlanders.
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John and Tony,
I grow 6 different leaftypes of the Podophyllum pleianthum-versipelle complex (Podophyllum species from the section Dysosma, with shiny green leaves, without drawings or spots, multiple flowers and regular foliar marginal teeth)
1a) Podophyllum pleianthum
1b) Podophyllum pleianthum group
2) Podophyllum mairei
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3) Podophyllum versipelle form 1
4) Podophyllum versipelle form 2
5) Podophyllum versipelle form 3
6) Podophyllum versipelle form 4
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I checked the flowers and found 3 different flower types within these 6 leaf types:
flower type 1
A flower with a glabrous pedicel, six dark red-brown elleptic petals (broadest part in middle of petal), forming a sferical chamber around a green ovary and six stamens with a short filament and broad anthers (stamens as long as the ovary)
I call this Podophyllum pleianthum
flower type 2
A flower with a hairy pedicel, six bright red obovate petals (broadest in the apical part of the petal), forming a sferical chamber around a light green ovary and six stamens with a long filament (almost as long as the anthers) and narrower anthers (stamens longer than the ovary)
I call this Podophyllum versipelle.
flower type 3
A flower with a hairy pedicel, six pale pink-reddish obovate petals (much smaller than type 1 and 2), forming an open flower around a green ovary and six stamens with a short filament and broad anthers (stamens as long as the ovary)
I call this Podophyllum mairei.
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Robin
what excellent pictures which clearly illustrate the differences. Although my flowers are very pale I think we can agree on mairei which is very distinct.
I will attempt to take photographs of my pleianthum/versipelle plants in the same style for you to compare. The weather here is very wet and I am away on Friday until Monday so it will be early next week before I can post them.
What do you think of my number 3 with the mottled leaves and pleianthum flowers. Do you have any like it?
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Tony,
I think this is a hybrid between P delavayi and pleianthum/versipelle. I don't have such a plant. It's a very nice plant!
Robin
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Robin - I am so entranced by your garden that it is difficult to concentrate on the superb shots and text identifying the Podophyllums.
Thanks so much. Are there any great plants you don't have?
johnw
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Robin thats what I was thinking.I have several more from the same batch of seed still to flower and so will see what they look like. i did not know such a hybrid was possible.
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Robin,
Fascinating layout of the differences between those you have. Wonderful reference material. Such fascinating plants. 8)
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I did not know such a hybrid was possible.
Tony,
With Podophyllum species you can expect the unexpected: Podophyllum x inexpectatum, a hybrid between the asian P. pleianthum and the north american P. peltatum (pollen).
Robin
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Here's the other P. aurantiocaule; P. a ssp. furfuraceum:
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Robin, facinating cross, does this one display the vigour and habit of P peltatum where it would send out runners?
Be interesting to see what other Asain sp will take on P peltatum.
I have an unusual asain Podophyllum, un named sp must post it on here before our frosts hit.
cheers
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So many Podophyllums I have never seen before. I rather like that hybrid. Thanks all.
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Almost in flower the Podophyllum received as veitchii and now thought to be delavayi. Here is a shot of leaves and almost opened flowers which are quite red. Prying inside it would appear the anthers extend beyond the stigma.
Thoughts?
johnw
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Hi John,
No doubt this is P. delavayi. If you look inside the flower you will see that the stamens have a long free connective on top of the anther (the part of the stamen that bears the pollen) and are much longer than the ovary.
Robin
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John,
How stunning is that!! :o Both in leaf and in flower. Beautiful!!
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Flower of Podophyllum aurantiocaule ssp. furfuraceum.
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Beautiful! Love the framing of the picture too. ;D
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Thanks, Paul! :) I don't grow ssp. aurantiocaule, but judging from pictures the petal/flower shape looks quite different?
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Robin some further pictures of my plants.On my return home I have another one in flower which I am calling mairei. This differs very much from my first one of this species. That had small pale pink flowers in a cup shape and this has large dark red ones also cup shaped but similar in colour to pleianthum/versipelle.
having looked at your pictures I can see little difference between pleianthum and versipelle and I would consider them variations of the same species. I am not a botanist but it seems that they have been split using very few specimens.We may have to disagree on this but that is part of the pleasure in growing plants.If we agreed every time the discussion would soon end.
The mairei you show is like the one I have just found in flower,my first photgraph. The rest of my pictures are the same four flowers from different angles. From left to right I am calling them,the first two on the left pleianthum/versipelle and the second two on the right mairei.All four have the same type of leaf.
Thank you for your note on the hybrid.I was aware of this from Stearn's monograph but see my note below.
I think a further problem will now arise with home grown plants in that we are having a few very hot days and the plants are being visited by numerous flies.Therefore if it is a collection of different species like we, have the resulting seed is very likely to be hybrid. This is very likely how my possible hybrid has arisen as it is from my own seed.
photos of flower parts:
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Can anyone identify this Podophyllum from Chen Yi, they are both the same species as they came with the same ident numbers?
Thanks
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Stephen; It's P. difforme, or possibly a hybrid of it, it looks like the species but you'll know for sure when it flowers.
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A very poor picture but as you can see the petals on my Podophyllum pleianthum are neither wider at the base nor the tip. The anthers extend beyond the stigma. So what now?
I did a few crosses last night and hope I have done some of them them in the correct direction.
delavayi (best) x versipelle MH (doubtfully correct as no hairs on the pedicels, may be a hybrid or pleianthum so may get seed anyway)
pleianthum JW x versipelle MH (doubtfully correct as no hairs on the pedicels, may be a hybrid or pleianthum so may get seed anyway)
pleianthum JW x delavayi (best)
delavayi (best) x delavayi
delavayi x delavayi (best)
johnw
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John
I think we have the same problems with identification.My notes above are my doubts as to whether pleianthum and versipelle are separate species if we are deciding about hairs or not.
I have tried to pollinate mine by using similar flowers so as not to get crosses but they have been very attractive to flies and I have all mine planted closely together so if I get seed it will be interesting.Also be prepared for disappointment,they can produce lovely fruits that hang on for months and are then empty.
Can we see some of your leaves just to admire?
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Tony - Here is my friend's "versipelle" in flower and leaf. It was in a very difficult spot for photographing. When I downloaded the shots I noticed the hairs on the pedicels, no heavy but enough to suspect versipelle or versipelle x pleianthum.
I also read in Stearn that the petals on pleianthum can be lanceolate. The drawing of the pleianthum flowers on page 272 are puzzling. What do you make of them? Maybe my pleianthum (shots to follow) may be in question now.
johnw
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And my Podophyllum pleianthum from the RSF.
johnw
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You've confused yourself, John.... that is the same set of pix you've repeated! ;D
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You've confused yourself, John.... that is the same set of pix you've repeated! ;D
I do that on an hourly basis. Pix corrected as you wrote. You're sharp as a tack.
johnw
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Is anyone else getting the feeling that the only problem here is that the plants have never read the books? ::) :-\
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Is anyone else getting the feeling that the only problem here is that the plants have never read the books? ::) :-\
They are too busy being promiscuous to pick up a book. ;D
Now I wonder where I might pick up a difforme. ;)
johnw
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Is anyone else getting the feeling that the only problem here is that the plants have never read the books? ::) :-\
Maggi I think this is what I have been trying to say for a while.
John thanks for the pictures. Your pleianthum leaves are much more entire than any of my plants which are more like your versipelle. As to the hairs I see Stearn says versipelle can be hirsute or glabrous on the pedicils (not very definitive!) Apart from delavayi mine are all quite bald.
I have abandoned the pictures in the book as being very stylised and tried to use the descriptions which led me to at least being able to narrow two of my plants down to mairei.
I am still convinced that pleianthum and versipelle are the same species.If you read the introduction to the section on page 270 it sounds as though it has been written by a politician hedging his bets. It seems the only reason for splitting is to illustrate the range of variation,not a good basis I think.
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Maggi I think this is what I have been trying to say for a while.
Well, quite , Tony! The same can be said for a lot of plants, eh?
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It's P. difforme, or possibly a hybrid of it, it looks like the species but you'll know for sure when it flowers.
Thanks arisaema will post flowers later in the year. Although you would think they are pure species coming from Chen Yi.
cheers
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Is anyone else getting the feeling that the only problem here is that the plants have never read the books? ::) :-\
Maggi,
Personally, I think that is a good thing. I grow a lot of things in my garden that aren't supposed to grow in my climate according to the books. ;) I'd like to keep it that way myself. ;D
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I couldn't agree more, Paul. :D I am perfectly happy not to bash my brains out trying to make the plants fit the text! :P
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My crosses on pleianthum and delavayi appear to have taken though the pleianthum x delavayi pods are halfway in size between definite takes and aborted ones.
johnw
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I too have a good number of pods on delavayi,pleianthum and mairei but I am not holding my breath so to speak as to whether they will have seeds. They have developed before and been empty!!
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I too have a good number of pods on delavayi,pleianthum and mairei but I am not holding my breath so to speak as to whether they will have seeds. They have developed before and been empty!!
Good point Tony. We've been down that road many times before with false alarms.
johnw
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Flowering well at the moment.
I got this as P versipelle
Can anyone confirm?
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Wow, Diane. That is so beautiful! :o
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Flowering well at the moment.
I got this as P versipelle
Can anyone confirm?
Diane - It's delavayi (a.k.a. veitchii). Flowers are the same as mine. We're the leaves mottled when they first appeared or did you land a green one?
I previously posted a shot of the versipelle a friend got from Thimble and I think Robin posted shots of versipelle's flowers a few weeks ago with hairy pedicels.
The flowers are slow close to the ground, as are mine, that would seem perilous, the fruit sitting on the ground and perhaps rotting before ripening. Maybe older plants hold them a tad higher.
johnw
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Diane I agree with John it is a plain leaved delavayii.You will need a second clone to get fruit.
John I do not find the flowers are higher on older plants but the pods seem fairly tough and have not rotted once set. They can get eaten by slugs when in flower.
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I was surfng today and googled "Podophyllum +bilden" and came across 11 pages of discussion on Podophyllum in German. There is one particularly dark leafed delavayi pictured along with some spectacular shots of the species and hybrids.
Here's the link and proceed through the 11 pages to find everything.
http://forum.garten-pur.de/Stauden-24/Podophyllum-hexandrum-_syn_-P_-5672_135A.htm (http://forum.garten-pur.de/Stauden-24/Podophyllum-hexandrum-_syn_-P_-5672_135A.htm)
johnw
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Diane I agree with John it is a plain leaved delavayii.You will need a second clone to get fruit.
Thanks to Tony and John for confirming my suspicions. I'd never seen a plain leaved delavayi. It does have particularly nice flowers, very large with a silky sheen. With regard to a second clone, I had quite a large plant but it didn't emerge after the winter. However, I have a P pleianthum that I think may be wrongly named and may be delavayi. Time will tell.
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John thats a very interesting site although it strains my german to the limit,perhaps I will concentrate on the pictures.
A lot of people seem to want to grow these plants but given how lovely they are it is not surprising
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Great link, thanks John ;D
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The herbaceous Berberidaceae are a really interesting group, and it is also interesting to consider the intercontinental relationships among the various species and genera.
I was in southern Iowa last month and I was surprised to find Podophyllum peltatum growing out in fill sun. Here is a photo of it growing on a roadside in an area that historically was an open oak savanna or woodland. The savanna has been converted to pasture but Podophyllum still grows outside the fence. This site is just a stone's throw from where my great-great-great-great grandmother homesteaded in pioneer times (1848, to be exact).
So it would appear that this species, at least, is not strictly a woodland plant and could grow in gardens in situations with full sun.
Ed
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Ed that is an interesting picture.I have just seen it as I have had internet problems.I have found helleborus vesicarius in Turkey in just such an open situation. Having first seen it only in conifer woods I had assumed it was a woodland plant.
My Podopyllum pleianthum fruits have ripened and below is a picture. I was not expecting this so early and most seem to have dropped of and been eaten by some wild animal such as a mouse(I do not get much else in the garden) before I could get to them. The difference between these and the mairie which I will show when they are ripe is that these are yellowish with a slightly waxy bluish bloom. The mairie are bright green like minature apples. Each fruit has only contained a couple of seeds and each of these is covered in a viscous placental aril which can be seen in the second photograph. This is very difficult to remove.
The fruits have a strong sweet pleasant smell and in the interests of science I have eaten a bit to see if they are as good as they smell. They are bitter and quite inedible and so I will leave them to the mice.
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Tony - It's interesting that there are so few seeds in the fruit and that they ripened for you so early.
Here are shots from just now of my P. pleianthum (?) from the Rhododendron Species Foundation and veitchii delavayi pods. Strange the tiny aborted pods still hang on. Both are still very firm. Crosses are marked with bread tags on each respective pod.
Also that tiny pleianthum x veitchii delavayi from Philip in June has grown very quickly in the rains of July and is already in a one gallon pot.
Don't miss out on Robin's great Podo seed list at www.greenmilenursery.be (http://www.greenmilenursery.be) Seeds are marked available only when ripe.
johnw
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John
your pleianthum and delavayi pods look exactly like mine so I suppose that is a little reassuring. I am surprised at the early ripening and until I noticed some were missing had not expected it.I have several plants from my own seed producing some unusual pods and these may be hybrids.
I would expect the delavayi to be another couple of months yet if they follow previous years.
Thanks for the link to Robins list,I have not seen this before.
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The fruits on the Podophyllum mariei are now ripening and dropping of the plants.
The first two pictures are of different plants showing the fruit.
The third picture is showing the difference between the mariei fruit on the left which is ripe but still bright green and the pleianthum fruit on the right.
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Great fruit set on mariei Tony. Enough for a pie.
johnw
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Great fruit set on mariei Tony. Enough for a pie.
johnw
I hope this is just a joke, John? :-\
While I think Tony W said he'd tried a bite of a fruit, all my sources say that while a small amount of well ripened fruit of podophyllum can be eaten, it is not recommended because in any quantity the fruit is as toxic as the root and other parts of the plant!
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Great fruit set on mariei Tony. Enough for a pie.
johnw
I hope this is just a joke, John? :-\
While I think Tony W said he'd tried a bite of a fruit, all my sources say that while a small amount of well ripened fruit of podophyllum can be eaten, it is not recommended because in any quantity the fruit is as toxic as the root and other parts of the plant!
Oh I think we will stick to rhubarb!
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Oh I think we will stick to rhubarb!
Yes, well..... quite! Funny old world, isn't it? ::) :P
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Enough for a pie. ;D
johnw
in any quantity the fruit is as toxic as the root and other parts of the plant! [/font] [/color]
[/quote]
Oh I think we will stick to rhubarb!
[/quote]
Excellent idea.
johnw
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Congratulations Tony. In the event you ever have too many seeds formed, keep some of us elsewhere in mind! ;D ;D I'm sure that someone here in Aus is growing them...I've just never seen them.
Actually, it really is fascinating to see the fruits. So often we just see the leaves and flowers or things but never the fruits themselves. Really interesting to see them. Thanks. 8)
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I had a timely email from Tony Willis today. He mentioned that his Podophyllum delavayi pods had ripened and that he had collected the seeds. He also said the pods simply dropped off. As I use bread tags to mark my crosses I was a bit concerned that should the pods drop off I would not be able to tell one cross from the next. So this prompted me to go out and have a look at my pods, they were not ripe. I got the brilliant idea of using the labels off bananas and grapes to stick on the pods. While I was sticking them one undeveloped small pod (sitting on the white piece of paper) dropped off. I almost ignored it but opened it up to find 2 perfectly good seeds - a cross between my best delavayi x another delavayi. Now the seed may not be viable but they certainly look good and I have Tony to thank for coming to the rescue.
Of note, even completely undeveloped crosses still retain the ovary and the pedicel. The pleianthum on the other hand has dropped ovary et al where crossings failed.
johnw
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Yet another presumed aborted pod from the delavayi plant above. Even tinier than the one the pod above but containing what appears to be one good seed.
johnw
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John I did not think to photograph my ripe delavayi pods which where large and deep purple.
I have numbered the plants 1,2 and 3. From no1 there have been two pods and each has contained 40-50 seeds that look good There is a further pod on that one.
Number 3 had one pod that had a dozen seeds. No 2 has two pods that are looking good but not yet ripe.
I have sown the seeds the same day as they have come of the plant.
I will put up pictures as they ripen
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Tony - Funny this last little pod was green when it dropped and the other small pod turned purple. The large normal pods on my delavayi show no signs of dropping. And the same for pleianthum which has 9 very large pods.
johnw
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The pods on Podophyllum delavayi are getting close to ripening. There has been a marked change in their coloration over the last few days, compare this shot with Post #93 on the 11th of September. Probably pickable now but they don't want to break off at the moment.
The Podophyllum pleianthum pods are still green and firm.
johnw
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John
have you stuck the seedless label on because you are a pessimist or a realist?
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John
have you stuck the seedless label on because you are a pessimist or a realist?
Tony - See post #93.
If I were an optimist I would have used watermelon labels but the local crop was poor this year. ;D
Of course there will be pecks of seed, perhaps none will be hybrdis! That's okay too as the one in the pic is a very good delavayi.
johnw
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Hi all,
Podophyllum delavayi fruits are usually purple-red but some forms produce green-yellow fruits.
P. aurantiocaule always produces red fruits.
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Hi all,
Podophyllum delavayi fruits are usually purple-red but some forms produce green-yellow fruits.
P. aurantiocaule always produces red fruits.
Robin - I just picked the above delavayi fruits shown in post #97 this weekend. They were very firey red, much brighter than shown above. And the slimiest seeds I have ever cleaned, worse than slug slime.
There were small seeds and very large ones in the same fruit. I don't know what the significance of that is, perhaps failed crosses?
You're aurantiocaule fruits are spectacular.
johnw
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Robin,
Fantastic pic of the fruit. Not only do you guys all show species I've never seen before, but now you show that the seedpods are as brilliant as the rest of the plants!! :o
John,
Congratulations on the seedpods coming to fruition!! ;D Good luck with your hybrids. I hope you're successful in producing some wonders. How many seeds did you end up with from those 3 fruit in #97?
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Philip MacDougall has been harvesting as well. I hope these delavayis are not tonight's supper.
johnw
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Cool. 8)
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Congratulations on the seedpods coming to fruition!! ;D Good luck with your hybrids. I hope you're successful in producing some wonders. How many seeds did you end up with from those 3 fruit in #97?
Paul - delavayi#1 x delavayi #2 produced uniformly large seed. The crosses delavayi (best) x versipelle Helleiners and an op pod which was dabbed with pleianthum, versipelle and delavayi produced 1/3 large seed and 2/3 small seed. A few of the small seeds shattered when de-sliming.
I should sow the smaller and larger ones separately to see if there is a difference in the outcomes.
johnw
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It will be interesting to hear (and see) the outcome. Thanks John.
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This year my P. "spotty dotty" produced some beautiful fruit - I'm very curious to see what will come out - I tried pollination with delavayi, hexandrum and versipelle (?)....but of course I didn't mark which was which. However, I'm sure the offspring will be beautiful :-)
Michael
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Congratulations, Michael. An achievement to get the seeds, and good luck with some interesting progeny. I'd be doing the same thing I must admit if I had different Podophyllums.... the possibilities seem endless!!
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Thats good Michael I am sure the offspring will be interesting.
Here are the last two fruits on one of my delavayi which does not have well marked leaves. They are the largest yet and resemble in colour and size those on P hexandrum each being 8cms long. When it flowered it was normal delavayi.
My other plants produced more purple/red fruits.
Across the range of fruits I have collected this year the number of seeds has ranged from 4 to over 80 in a single one. Previous experience shows they germinate well the spring following sowing. I keep my seed pots just frost free over the winter even though the plants have proved to be hardy in the garden.
As John says cleaning them is not the easiest way to spend an afternoon.
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A mass wave of Podophyllum seeds are sprouting in the cold room. Seems a tad early but as some of the seeds seemed awfully rubbery on harvesting it's quite promising.
I suppose it will soon be time to confirm the species and hybrids when the seed leaves appear. Assistance will certainly be required.
johnw
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John that is good news. I had one germinate in December but the cold soon saw it of. I now have them just frost free and I see they are starting to germinate. Still on seeds the Helleborus thibetanus are through,how are yours?
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John that is good news. I had one germinate in December but the cold soon saw it of. I now have them just frost free and I see they are starting to germinate. Still on seeds the Helleborus thibetanus are through,how are yours?
Tony - Seeds of your thibetanus had roots down last week when checked but tops are not showing yet. They're in the same cold light room as the Podos at about 7c. Fingers crossed.
Narcissus cyclamineus cw Feriera from Brian Duncan in 2008 are just coming up. I thought they were hopeless; I wanted to get different genes into my cyclamineus which have been repeatedly sibbed. Also scads of Galanthus nivalis from Jelitto seed sown last spring, a few had come up almost immediately. The first really good germination on Erythronium revolutum ever.
johnw
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The first two seedlings have emerged above the surface of the pot soil - pleianthum x versepille. The seeds coats have not been sluffed off yet so no id is possible yet.
johnw
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The first two seedlings have emerged above the surface of the pot soil - pleianthum x versepille. The seeds coats have not been sluffed off yet so no id is possible yet.
johnw
John
thats good that they are moving along.
I now have lots germinating having brought them into a warmer room and a few have shed the seed coat.
I am interested to know how you are going to id them from the seed leaves?
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Tony - I thought Robin had posted a shot of the differences in Podo spp. at the pre-true leaf stage. BNow I cannot find it or maybe I am thinking of Paris?
johnw
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Well the surprise will be all the greater when they produce their true leaves !
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John,
there are some pics with cotyledons published by Robin here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2492.msg60465#msg60465
and here one year later:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3472.msg87216#msg87216
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Wim
thank you,I will now wait and see if mine conform.I did pollinate them carefully in order to try and keep them as pure species so it will be interesting to look at the results. A lot of (all) the plants in cultivation seem to have come from Chen yi and they are very variable.
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Has anyone had problems getting the seed coat to sluff off Podophyllum seedlings? Seems we had this problem awhile back with P. hexandrum.
johnw
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John a good number of mine are coming up with the seed coats on even though I have a good covering of grit on the pots that they have to push through.
I am ignoring it for the moment and expect they will eventually split of.
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John a good number of mine are coming up with the seed coats on even though I have a good covering of grit on the pots that they have to push through.
I am ignoring it for the moment and expect they will eventually split of.
Tony - They seem to be sluffing off quite nicely on their own here. The two vars. of P. aurantiocaule are still underground, Philip MacD. says it is the latest of them all. True?
johnw
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Just to add to general information on the genus.
P. hexandrum 2008 stock.
Dry stored in freezer.
Retested winter of 2009-2010.
10 out of 10.
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John,
Podophyllum aurantiocaule seeds are indeed the last to germinate. Also the plants of this species are the last to emerge, end of april-beginning of may.
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John,
Podophyllum aurantiocaule seeds are indeed the last to germinate. Also the plants of this species are the last to emerge, end of april-beginning of may.
Robin - Indeed with a bit of warmth the aurantiocaules are emerging. 23c here today, a record breaker.
One forumist reported by PM that she had Podophyllum seeds sprout with true round leaves. I was puzzled. All mine came up with the normal seed leaves, which by the way have increased in size to about 5 times their original size 3 or more weeks ago. A few days ago I was looking at a pot of P. pleianthum and found a newly sprouted tiny seedling with a true leaf, also a tiny stub of a root as you would expect. It can only by from seed of last year as none of my more exotic podos set any seed until last autumn. Is this very unusual? And why do plants always seem to break the rules?
johnw
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John,
Podophyllum aurantiocaule seeds are indeed the last to germinate. Also the plants of this species are the last to emerge, end of april-beginning of may.
Robin - Indeed with a bit of warmth the aurantiocaules are emerging. 23c here today, a record breaker.
One forumist reported by PM that she had Podophyllum seeds sprout with true round leaves. I was puzzled. All mine came up with the normal seed leaves, which by the way have increased in size to about 5 times their original size 3 or more weeks ago. A few days ago I was looking at a pot of P. pleianthum and found a newly sprouted tiny seedling with a true leaf, also a tiny stub of a root as you would expect. It can only by from seed of last year as none of my more exotic podos set any seed until last autumn. Is this very unusual? And why do plants always seem to break the rules?
johnw
John I have experienced this in the past and indeed have two seedlings producing a leaf without the cotyledons being evident.
What is happening with me is that the seeds have put down a root and as they have tried to push up the seed with the cotyledon inside the seed coat through the gravel it has rotted of. If this was a normal dicot the growing point would have rotted as well and we would say the seedling had damped of. As this is not a normal dicot the growing point is at soil level and if the rot does not proceed far down the young leaf stalk then the true leaf appears out of the base as normal. Hence the first sign of the plant above ground is a true leaf. This has only occured as far as I can see on the small seeded plants and they are too small for me to illutrate with a phtograph.
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Tony - Thanks for the response. The one here with a true leaf is so minute I can't photograph it well either - photo 1.
It will be interesting to see if the other ones develop a true leaf the first year. It is quite remarkable how large the cotyledons have become in a month, I've just done a few measurements against some recent sprouters and they are now 6 times larger that when the seed coat was first sluffed off and then expanded. Photo 2 pleianthum seedlings just unfurled, centre seedling, Photo 3 pleianthum 1 month old.
johnw - +20c here and sunny
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The south-east North American woodlander, Diphylleia cymosa is of course a Podophyllum relative. It's my first time growing this from seed---and have many hundred germinated at the moment. I am trying to figure out how to pot it up (which depends on its growth habit). Can someone tell me whether it proceeds beyond the first leaf in its first year or whether I should treat it like podophyllum in this regard?
Thank You.
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Kristl,
Diphylleia cymosa holds its cotyledon the first year, I treat it like Podophyllum.
Robin
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Thank you, Robin. When I didn't have an answer in the beginning, I followed my instinct (and potted them like Podophyllums), so I am happy to have this confirmed.
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My talented photographer / neighbour Mike (aka musapix) came by last May and shot our Podophyllum pleianthums. In the rear left you can see our old carriage house and the tremendous height of our plants. We will be discarding all patio umbrellas this year as the Podos are servicing the entire yard. ;)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/musapix/3525385706/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/musapix/3525385706/)
By the way, this year's newly sprouted seedlings are putting up true leaves, about 7-8 weeks after first sprouting.
johnw
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Well, just wanted to share some experience. I bet many of you, Podo people, have done that to Podos seeds. But this is my first time of experimenting with Podos seeds.
Seeds of P.pleianthum and P.hexandrum came from Kristi (with instructions) but being me ( love to play with different germinating techniques ) I didn't follow those instruction to a dot. (Please forgive me, Kristi!)
So here what I have done:
February 25
I scarified 2 seeds of P. pleianthum with a sand paper and store them with the rest in a fridge in paper towel.
On March 6th
I decided to check on seeds and those two seeds, that were scarified, germinated.
Just wanted to share. :)