Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Plant Identification => Plant Identification Questions and Answers => Topic started by: Mike Ireland on April 10, 2009, 05:34:46 PM
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Bought this Myosotis sp. at a plant fair in the grounds of Harlow Carr last year, from Ron McBeath, I think. Labelled Myosotis sp. Eyre Mountains. Any ideas?
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Not a million miles away from the furry species shown here, Mike..... reply 50...from David Lyttle
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2785.msg66288;topicseen#msg66288
I'm looking to see if I can find an answer to the sp.?? question!!
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Mike, the only suggestion I've had of a name for this plant is Myosotis glabrescens but I've no idea whether it is correct or not. With patience it will make a 25cm cushion but I've never managed to get it to do the 'wow' thing of flowering all over at once. If you figure out how to do it let me know.
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I think with fab foliage like that, just some flowers sprinkled over as in Mike's pic is plenty good enough for me... I love it!! ;D
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Martin,
Personally I think that is already pretty damn WOW for me!! :o
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Mike,
Its a lovely Myosotis: Maggi has requested that I identify it which means that if I were to do so definitively I would have to go into some mountain fastness next summer to find and collect it.
From the thumbnail I thought it might be a form of Myosotis pulvinaris but it is quite different. The anthers are held up well above the corolla scales which means it is not Myosotis pulvinaris (or glabrescens). I keyed it out as well as I was able to from the photos and the closest I could get was Myosotis lyallii. There is a record of Myosotis elderi/lyallii from the Eyre Mountains so I am presuming this refers to a similar plant that cannot be Myosotis elderi because of the position of the anthers. I think I would be happy enough to call Myosotis lyallii until more information is available. There are a number of undescribed Myosotis sps present in the Southern part of the South Island notably the plant that has been distributed as Myosotis cheesemanii but is not. There is also a plant described an illustrated in Metcalfs book 'The cultivation of New Zealand Plants' as Myosotis oreophila which appears to be a form of Myosotis macrantha so some of the references are not particularly helpful
I am posting a picture of Myosotis pulvinaris from the Remarkables taken this summer and another small Myosotis taken further south but east of the Eyre Mountains for comparison. Note the position of the anthers.
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We had the same under Myosotis pulvinaris
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Its a lovely Myosotis: Maggi has requested that I identify it which means that if I were to do so definitively I would have to go into some mountain fastness next summer to find and collect it.
How, David, I was not that demanding..... I merely suggested that you might be the very chap to help.... and you have!! 8) :-*
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WOW lovely Myosotis
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Maggi,
I am intrigued by this particular plant; I would love to see it growing in the wild. The elderi/lyallii record from the Eyre Mountains suggests some one found a few plants that were not flowering and could not identify it conclusively. Often when I get home and look at my photos I see plants that I wish I had looked at more closely at the time. I have never seen anything quite like Mike's specimen. It seems to form a cushion though it is not tight like that of pulvinaris. It may have a softer life in cultivation. Myosotis lyallii is not necessarily a cushion; the illustration in Mark and Adams shows a rosette with decumbent stems.
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It may have a softer life in cultivation.
Ah, yes, that is a distinct possibility, of course, which could make ID yet more tricky. It is a very fine plant, that's for sure.
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What a beauty !.
Has me puzzled as well.
As David has pointed out ,(and your pics clearly show Mike), the anthers protrude well beyond the corolla which is one of the keys for M.lyallii.
Mark and Adams mention that in lyallii the fine hairs on the upper surface and margins are sparse or absent beneath --a closer inspection in that respect might help .
However Myosotis lyallii i've come across in Fiordland have a rosette growth ,(rather than a cushion) ,with trailing flowering branches ,which to my eye makes it rather untidy in appearance and if i remember correctly the flowers are not singular as in your pics Mike.
While i don't have Davids expertise i tend to think at this stage it is a M. sps not named yet.
Cheers dave.
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Hi All
Having just read the latest comments regarding this plant ID I thought I had better take some extra photos. It looks like the reverse of the leaf is hairy like the surface. The plant has been in an alpine house but most of the glass on the sides is removed to allow free air movement, the plants do not get "mollycodlled" although the roof glass keeps the rain off.
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I am pretty sure that it would not appreciate the rain in the UK
summer, winter Mike, so your regime is doingit proud... what a super plant it is and your excellent closeup shots show it very clearly. Thanks!
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I don't think it minds summer rain. I've always found the only way to keep it happy in summer is lots of overhead watering...winter wet, however, might be fatal.
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I don't think it minds summer rain. I've always found the only way to keep it happy in summer is lots of overhead watering...winter wet, however, might be fatal.
Oooh, yes, sorry, I'm thinking New Zealand and confusing myself.... our winter/ their summer !
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Gerd Stopp distributes this fine plant since several years and offers 2 different forms, Eyre Mts.1 and 2.
Because the hot conditions in my garden it does not grow too good with me, but in my friend`s cooler
garden they grow very well all the year without any protection.
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Gerd Stopp distributes this fine plant since several years and offers 2 different forms, Eyre Mts.1 and 2.
Because the hot conditions in my garden it does not grow too good with me, but in my friend`s cooler
garden they grow very well all the year without any protection.
Good to know this, Rudi, thank you.
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While i don't have Davids expertise i tend to think at this stage it is a M. sps not named yet.
Dave,
I don't disagree with you in this instance. It does not really look like Myosotis lyallii in its typical form. It also has hairs on the undersurface of the leaf and the flowers are solitary and terminal much like those of Myosotis pulvinaris. If it had been field collected/ photographed with a specific location I would not have danced round the point but it has been in cultivation for a while and may have been hybridised ie saxosa X pulvinaris. We need to go to the Eyres and look for it.
I will quote from Vol I of the Flora of NewZealand "No satisfactory account can be given of the smaller forms of the mountains extending from Central Otago to Fiordland. Many have rosettes contracted into some sort of cushion habit with salverform fls that are us. white, conspicuous, large for the size of the plant (mostly 8-10 mm. diam.) and often abundant and sweet-scented. Herbarium specimens, though numerous, are tantalizingly inadequate; neverthless, on fl.-characters and hair-types at least eight different kinds can be recognized. Some are referable to M. pulvinaris, M. cheesemanii, M. glabrescens and M. tenericaulis; others show combinations or characters like those found in M. elderi, M. suavis or M. lyallii and possibly are dwarf forms of these spp.; there is probably at least one un-described sp. "
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I have an update on the mystery Myosotis. I forwarded a picture to John Barkla who works as a botanist for the local office of DOC.
I quote from his reply.
"It's almost certainly Myosotis glabrescens, a plant that Mike Thorsen and I are doing some work on at the moment. There's very little distributional information about this species. We saw it a couple of years ago on the Hector Mountains but there are older records from the Garvies and Eyre Mountains. It would be good to know where in the Eyres it occurs. At the moment it has a status of Data Deficient - we hope to do some targetted survey work and try and work out what its real status is."
I also am including a quote from a footnote from Vol 1 of the Flora.
" A special point of interest lies in the position of the anthers which does not place the species neatly in either section of the genus, but suggests Exarrhena rather strongly"
I did not initially consider Myosotis glabrescens because of the position of the anthers on which point the key is misleading. The plant in the picture could not be described as "almost glabrous". The mystery of the plants identity is a mystery no more. The remaining mystery is from where in the Eyre Mountains the plant was sourced as John would like to know. It is considered to be a rare plant and there is a certain irony that it is perhaps better known in cultivation than in the wild.
Thanks Maggi - this one has been a bit of a challenge but I have learnt about a plant that I was not familiar with and will be on the lookout for it in the future.
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Most interesting to get this further information, David.
Since Mike thought the plant came from Lamberton Nursery, I'll see Ron McBeath this weekend and will ask if he knows the source derivation of the material.
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What a wonderful place this is! I'm off to change the labels on my plants :)
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Maggi,
It would be good to get the source of the plant and a location.
I would be very grateful if someone could send me some seed. I am sure John Barkla would like to see the actual plant as well.
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I got mine from Ron, Maggi, in 2006. It grows easily and quickly from cuttings too. Sadly, mine does not seem to want to give me a whole dome of flowers, but it is a lovely little thing. I think Sue has it too.
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"It's almost certainly Myosotis glabrescens, a plant that Mike Thorsen and I are doing some work on at the moment. There's very little distributional information about this species. We saw it a couple of years ago on the Hector Mountains but there are older records from the Garvies and Eyre Mountains. It would be good to know where in the Eyres it occurs.
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I'd be interested in knowing where it is on the Hectors --the snow has cleared and the forecast for tomorrow is good so i'm away up there first thing ---besides botanizing i have a pair of wayward sunglasses to locate beside a large flat looking ,(aren't they all!!!!), rock on one ridge, and a chain with padlock ,left behind a few weeks ago in a snow tussock on another range across the valley :-[ :-[ :-[ .
I can tell you the above has done nothing to elevate the worries my wife has, about my solo trips into the 'hills' .......
Cheers dave.
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Dave,
Unless it is in flower it will be difficult to tell apart from Myosotis pulvinaris. I suspect it it is tighter growing in the wild than the pictures we have seen posted on the forum. Good luck!
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I'd be interested in knowing where it is on the Hectors --the snow has cleared and the forecast for tomorrow is good so i'm away up there first thing ---besides botanizing i have a pair of wayward sunglasses to locate beside a large flat looking ,(aren't they all!!!!), rock on one ridge, and a chain with padlock ,left behind a few weeks ago in a snow tussock on another range across the valley :-[ :-[ :-[ .
I can tell you the above has done nothing to elevate the worries my wife has, about my solo trips into the 'hills' .......
Cheers dave.
Dave,
We happen to know what you are doing with chains and padlocks in the wild, but newcomers to the forum MIGHT be slightly suspicious (especially when you mention that your solo trips are beginning to worry your lovely wife ... )? :o :o :o ;D
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David
Thanks for all the information. I will let you know if seed is set, I have been busy with one of my wife's small paint brushes.
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Well now, look what was on the show bench in Perth yesterday.......
[attach=1]
...not the best specimen and I'm not sure whether this will be the #1 or #2 types spoken about earlier .....but interesting nonetheless. Perhaps someone can remind me whose plant it is??? ???
I asked Ron McBeath about the plant and he says he still grows it but has not been propagating it lately. ( I suggested he might be well advised to do so, soon!!) He did not collect the seed himself and in fact, cannot remember where he frst got the plant from. :'( So no further forward there on a location for you NZers to track it down, I'm afraid.... it'll be down to legwork, I reckon.......wonder if we should have a whip round for the linament? :-\ ::)
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Hi Maggi, I think I remember Peter Korn showing us a slide of it at one of his talks, wonder if Ron got it from him?
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Hi Maggi,
Thanks for the new picture; it does not look as hairy as Mike's specimen though it is a bit hard to tell from the photo as it is not sharp when I enlarged it. It is a nice plant.
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For any one interested in seeing pictures of Myosotis glabrescens in the wild there are pictures on the following link http://www.nzpcn.org.nz/vascular_plants/detail.asp?PlantID=776 (http://www.nzpcn.org.nz/vascular_plants/detail.asp?PlantID=776) There is also a fact sheet which states that only six plants have been found in recent times.
Edit by Maggi : 10th April 2012 :
Link shown by David seems to be broken... this one works :
http://www.nzpcn.org.nz/flora_details.asp?ID=762
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Hi, David... the first photo was mine.... not great quality... have had a search and Ian has better shots, here are two closeups which may help you more.....
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
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Our last East Lancs group meeting was a miscellany of photo comp results, mini show , 'brains?' trust and auction, and one of the members brought a couple of seed trays full of plants in small pots to auction for group funds.
Being short of little mini garden plants (Clare would dispute this vigorously >:() I bid strongly and got the lot. ;D
Among the plants were two labelled Myosotis 'Ayre (sic) Mts' and ssp Ayre Mts.
Googling soon led me to this thread, not only with the correct spelling but also a guide to the species.
The plants each look exactly as the pics above though they are not yet in flower.
Although I can be a bit lazy as to watering sometimes :P, I have had success in the past growing Myosotis capitata in mini wet areas using mushroom boxes with a base of gravel which was kept very wet, so I decided to repeat the process for these plants.
The boxes are of the type with holes only in the sides, with the base below the holes filled with gravel or sand.
A pot in the corner allows the water level to be seen and topped up when needed and the plants can be plunged or not as desired. See pics.
I will keep the boxes outside in the main and move them indoors only when flowering (I hope! ::)).
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David, thanks for the link which dispels any lingering doubts on the identity of this plant.
For anyone wanting to propagate it does appear to be self fertile and the seed germinates easily.
John, like your boxes, great idea. The plants at the front labelled traversii (I assume Myosotis traversii) look like another example of a widespread misnaming in the UK and are most likely M. rakiura, a much more desirable plant than traversii.
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Hi Martin,I think this Myosotis traversii must have come from one of the seedex this year,I was very pleased with my pot of seedling early on and potted several on.Today I have put the lot in the bin,Rubish,
No potential farrer there.I hope I did not pass one on to John it would not be very good for his gardens.
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Hi Tony, sounds like you may actually have got M. traversii. A straggly thing would be the kind description
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My apologies to all. I'm getting confused. It's been a long day. The weedy one is M. fosteri which often gets called M. rakiura in the UK non specialist nursery trade, but a lot of stuff labelled M. traversii floating about the UK based seed exchanges is M. rakiura. I don't think I've actually seen a 'captive' M. traversii. Anyone in NZ got a picture of M. traversii to help clear up this guddle? Confused?
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Hi Martin,
I have two pots of 'traversii' the one in the pic is from seedex, but the other came direct from NZ collector.
They may have the same provenance but who would know?.
J.
p.s. The boxes work better if you check first that they don't have a leak! Grrrrrr! :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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This may help when your plants grow up a bit John. This specimen of M. rakiura was shown about 6-7 years ago at East Anglia by Martin & Anna Sheader. Close ups of smaller flowering specimens can be obtained if you'd like them....but not till the rain stops!
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Thanks Martin.
It will be some time before I can compare them but here's hoping........ :)
J.
p.s. Rain here too - so off to Malaga for a week with the Smethys.
No rain forecast there. ;D
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I thought you hadn't retired :P
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It's only for eight days Martin - have a heart! 8)
J.
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Well OK as long as you don't want a summer holiday as well ;D
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David, thanks for the link which dispels any lingering doubts on the identity of this plant.
For anyone wanting to propagate it does appear to be self fertile and the seed germinates easily.
Certainly germinates easily as Martin has commented ----here's a close up of a plant from UK seed sown end of June 09.
Another 3 seedlings are just through and i plan to grow them all on for just a little while ,(before passing some on to David Lyttle), to compare with a pic i took on the Eyres last autumn as i am pretty certain i have located Myosotis glabrescens in the wild. :D
More to follow.
Cheers dave.