Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Ed Alverson on March 31, 2009, 07:51:11 PM
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It doesn't appear that anyone has started a thread for Erythronium in 2009, and since I have seen random Erythronium posts in other threads, if thought I would step up and start one.
This spring has come on very slowly for us, for the most part the early bloomers are a couple of weeks behind where they were last year. Finally, at the end of March, our early species are blooming well - Erythronium hendersonii, E. multiscapoideum, and E. tuolumnense. E. oregonum has also started, but others such as E. californicum and E. revolutum are just coming up.
I thought I would post some photos of my bed of E. tuolumnense, which is doing very nicely now that it has been in place for several years. I like the rich yellow color, it is the same shade of yellow as daffodils. I think these plants are also benefitting from bulb fertilizer. I have three forms, two of which are in this bed. The two forms are very distinct - I intermixed the forms when I planted the bed but I can pretty easily tell which is which. The first one is much taller, with upright flower stalks and leaves, and has fewer flowers per stem (2 to 4)than the other. It seems to be more susceptible to slug damage. The second form has leaves that are more spreading, and the inflorescences are distinctively secund. This form also tends to have more flowers per stem, 4 to 7 on the robust plants. The third form is one I just obtained last year, so I can't really compare it, except to say that it flowered much earlier than the other, a full two or three weeks before any of my other Erythroniums were out.
Since this species is propagated mostly by vegetative offsets, it would be interesting to see how many different distinct forms are out there. It would be interesting for forum members to post photos of their plants to see if there are any other recognizable morphological types out there.
Ed
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And for reference purposes, here are some photos of E. tuolumnense in the wild, which I took at the type locality in California. These flowers look much different to me than those of my garden plants. The stems are upright, taller than the leaves, not at all secund, and with one to four flowers. The flowers are more reflexed, though this may just be a matter of weather conditions. The tepals seem to be much longer and seem more graceful. But that is a bit difficult to judge without having actual measurements. Of course, this is just a portion of only one population, and it would be interesting also to see how much variation can be found in the wild populations.
Ed
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Erythronium Pink Beauty ?
Sorry about the focus but it was very windy when I was taking the pic.
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Ed,
here my first Erythronium,
Erythronium caucasicum
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Michael,
Pink beauty is indeed a beauty. Is it a result of breeding/interbreeding or is it a form of a native one and in that case which?
Göte
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Pink beauty is indeed a beauty. Is it a result of breeding/interbreeding or is it a form of a native one and in that case which?
Göte, Michael's plant is clearly E. revolutum, given the pink tepals and dilated anther filaments.
Brian Mathew has written about "Pink Beauty" in a 1992 paper in the Botanical Journal of the Linnaean Society, vol. 109 pp. 453-471. He says "Carl Purdy also selected a 'soft pink' variant from Humboldt Co., California, which he called 'Pink Beauty'" Also in this paper, Mathew discusses E. "White Beauty" and clarifies that is is a form of E. californicum, not E. revolutum.
I have always wondered if true "Pink Beauty" forms clumps from offsets like E. californicum "White Beauty" Michael, is that the case with your "Pink Beauty", or do you increase them from seed? Part of the reason I ask is that there are plants of E. revolutum in gardens in Eugene that do form clumps from offsets to some degree, and in gardens the colonies appear to be partly the result of vegetative increase and partly seed increase. Typically, wild populations of E. revolutum do not produce offsets. I have always wondered whether the original source of these plants in Eugene gardens was Carl Purdy's nursery, and thus they could be descendants of the original "Pink Beauty", though at this point there is no cultivar or seed strain name attached. I'll try to post some photos of these plants in the near future when I get a chance.
Ed
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just a few E. dens canis in flower now
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I have always wondered if true "Pink Beauty" forms clumps from offsets like E. californicum "White Beauty" Michael, is that the case with your "Pink Beauty
Ed, the Pink beauty in my garden clump up very slowly if at all. The original clump is much the same for years although the seed grows fairly quickly and soon produces flowering size tubers. I just plant the pots of seedlings without seperating them and that way produce nice clumps.
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Pink beauty is indeed a beauty. Is it a result of breeding/interbreeding or is it a form of a native one and in that case which?
Göte, Michael's plant is clearly E. revolutum, given the pink tepals and dilated anther filaments.
Brian Mathew has written about "Pink Beauty" in a 1992 paper in the Botanical Journal of the Linnaean Society, vol. 109 pp. 453-471. He says "Carl Purdy also selected a 'soft pink' variant from Humboldt Co., California, which he called 'Pink Beauty'" Also in this paper, Mathew discusses E. "White Beauty" and clarifies that is is a form of E. californicum, not E. revolutum.
I have always wondered if true "Pink Beauty" forms clumps from offsets like E. californicum "White Beauty" Michael, is that the case with your "Pink Beauty", or do you increase them from seed? Part of the reason I ask is that there are plants of E. revolutum in gardens in Eugene that do form clumps from offsets to some degree, and in gardens the colonies appear to be partly the result of vegetative increase and partly seed increase. Typically, wild populations of E. revolutum do not produce offsets. I have always wondered whether the original source of these plants in Eugene gardens was Carl Purdy's nursery, and thus they could be descendants of the original "Pink Beauty", though at this point there is no cultivar or seed strain name attached. I'll try to post some photos of these plants in the near future when I get a chance.
Ed
Ed - I have a form of E. revolutum - probably a hybrid - which is nearly as vigorous as 'White Beauty' & clumps up well. This was received as "Johnsonii" which it almost certainly is not. It's just coming into flower so I'll post a photo in the near future
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Gerry, I'll look forward to seeing your photos - make sure you get the inside of the flowers as well as the outside. I have to admit that I don't have a good sense of what E. johnsonii actually is, or how it supposedly differs from typical E. revolutum. According to Mathew's paper (mentioned earlier), johnsonii has "leaves strongly mottled and flowers a bright pinkish rose outside, inside golden orange deepening to a dark purple". The type locality is "Coast Ranges of southern Oregon", so I should probably try to find it in the wild one of these years.
I do see that Ian has some nice photos of different forms of E. revolutum on his bulb log from January 2008, including "Johnsonii".
Ed
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Göte, Michael's plant is clearly E. revolutum, given the pink tepals and dilated anther filaments.
Thank you Ed
Göte
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This is an Erthronium revolutum 'johnsonii' given to me last year. The person giving it would say he knows its provenance back to the day God created it,except he is an atheist.
I can say happily that in just four weeks I shall hopefully be looking at them in the wild.
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Here's my Erythronium 'Margaret Mathew' today.
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Looking very good David !
I love the Johnsonii Tony - very nice !
Here's my clump of Erythronium tuolumnense.
Bought it 10 or 12 years ago - it clumped up nicely but flowering got slower and slower until it virtually stopped.
I dug it up in 2007 (46 bulbs) - thinned it out and replanted 26 of them with lots of dried cow manure in the hole - it got a potash treatment but in 2008 I had now flowers... :-\ ... more potash in that growing season and this is my reward this Spring ! I'm a happy chappy ! :D
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Here's my clump of Erythronium tuolumnense.
Bought it 10 or 12 years ago - it clumped up nicely but flowering got slower and slower until it virtually stopped.
I dug it up in 2007 (46 bulbs) - thinned it out and replanted 26 of them with lots of dried cow manure in the hole - it got a potash treatment but in 2008 I had now flowers... :-\ ... more potash in that growing season and this is my reward this Spring ! I'm a happy chappy ! :D
Lovely clump Luc theres nothing quite like a bit of muck ;D
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Ian,
My mother-in-law had a saying, "There's money in sh.t" meaning that hard, and even dirty work, brings in the money. This saying always fascinated one of our boys. Imagine our laughter when he returned one day from our neighbours and said that his Nanny was right, that there was money in sh.t because he had seen our neighbour dig a fertilizer bag which contained a money box with lots of cash out of the dung heap. As it happened, our neighbours had builders in doing some work and for security he had buried his cash in the dung heap.
So, mother-in-law's old saying was proven true but not as she had meant it.
Paddy
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Brian Mathew has written about "Pink Beauty" in a 1992 paper in the Botanical Journal of the Linnaean Society, vol. 109 pp. 453-471. He says "Carl Purdy also selected a 'soft pink' variant from Humboldt Co., California, which he called 'Pink Beauty'" Also in this paper, Mathew discusses E. "White Beauty" and clarifies that is is a form of E. californicum, not E. revolutum.
Ed - I imagine much the same material can be found in Brian Mathew’s article on Erythronium in the AGS Bulletin vol 66 no 3 (Sept 1998). This may be more accessible to forumists.
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E. grandiflorum grows on Mt. Prevost, a lowish (800 m) mountain just outside Duncan, British Columbia:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=48.833312,-123.765793&spn=0.012627,0.029655&t=p&z=15
It is restricted to the cold north slope of the mountain; this is widely considered to be one of the lowest altitude stands of this normally-alpine plant, but I'm not entirely sure that's true.
Many years ago I was putzing around trying to find the erythroniums and my companion on the trip spotted some seedlings. These long ago reached flowering size in my garden (planted in the coldest, shadiest aspect I have), but rarely flower satisfactorily. Usually if they flower at all, the scapes do not elongate properly and the flowers end up scrunched down into the basal leaves looking upward.
However, this year because (presumably) we've had an exceptionally long winter, two of the bulbs are flowering with scapes properly elongated.
To those UK members lusting after this species, my advice is to put it on your list of plants that don't do well in captivity and aren't worth expending mental energy on. Members in cold-winter climates (Scandinavia, Central Europe) might have better results. Even if you could establish a good patch, however, the end result would be hardly different from a patch of E. tuolumnense, which is a very easy, unfussy plant with no fads.
I'll try to post a picture later on.
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Rodger,
I have to disagree with you on E. grandiflorum. I have a lovely plant grown from NNS which has brown anthers, I will get a photo when it flowers this year.
Here is a different E. oreganum ssp. leucandrum which came amongst some NNS seedlings. I thought it was quite a special colour and had lovely marking. I will separate it out.
Susan
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Ian,
My mother-in-law had a saying, "There's money in sh.t" meaning that hard, and even dirty work, brings in the money. This saying always fascinated one of our boys. Imagine our laughter when he returned one day from our neighbours and said that his Nanny was right, that there was money in sh.t because he had seen our neighbour dig a fertilizer bag which contained a money box with lots of cash out of the dung heap. As it happened, our neighbours had builders in doing some work and for security he had buried his cash in the dung heap.
So, mother-in-law's old saying was proven true but not as she had meant it.
Paddy
;D ;D safer than a bank these days ::)
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E. grandiflorum grows on Mt. Prevost, a lowish (800 m) mountain just outside Duncan, British Columbia:
To those UK members lusting after this species, my advice is to put it on your list of plants that don't do well in captivity and aren't worth expending mental energy on. Members in cold-winter climates (Scandinavia, Central Europe) might have better results. Even if you could establish a good patch, however, the end result would be hardly different from a patch of E. tuolumnense, which is a very easy, unfussy plant with no fads.
I'll try to post a picture later on.
It also grows well on Mt Rainer (formerly Mt Tacoma) in Washington state. These pics are bad scans of photos from the eighties.
I try to grow "Pagoda" which I assume is tuolomnense variety or hybrid. It is not reliably frost hardy here. Grandiflorum probably would be.
Have a nice Easter
Göte
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A picture of Erythronium tuolumense growing at Russian River California in very wet conditions.
A picture of Erythronium montanum on Mt Rainier Washington. We were told that it never grew with E.grandiflorum but they both grew intermingled in some areas.Both species covered large areas and were snow melt plants.
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To those UK members lusting after this species, my advice is to put it on your list of plants that don't do well in captivity and aren't worth expending mental energy on. Members in cold-winter climates (Scandinavia, Central Europe) might have better results. Even if you could establish a good patch, however, the end result would be hardly different from a patch of E. tuolumnense, which is a very easy, unfussy plant with no fads.
Oh. As my winters are less cold than those in the UK, I suppose I may as well throw out my 60 something seedlings right away then? ???
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Oh. As my winters are less cold than those in the UK, I suppose I may as well throw out my 60 something seedlings right away then? ???
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You can throw them out down my way if you like Lesley ;).
I have a nice clump of E.grandiflorum ssp pallidum,(white anthers),which flowers regularly here in our sheltered woodland setting which is possibly warmer in winter than you on the hill .
Cheers dave.
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We were told that it never grew with E.grandiflorum but they both grew intermingled in some areas.Both species covered large areas and were snow melt plants.
I made the same observation. If you look at my lower pic you will find a montanum among the grandiflorum. I did not see as many montanum as grandiflorum. The grandiflorum grew like dandelions. All the yellow colour in my pic is grandiflorum.
Göte
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Here is Erythronium grandiflorum with brown anthers just starting to flower here. I certainly think it is worthy of a place in the garden.
Susan
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Susan,
this Erythronium grandiflorum is very nice, i have no luck with this species.
Here some Erythronium from my garden:
Ery. dens-canis 'Lilac Wonder'
'' '' Mix several seedlings
'' '' bed with some forms
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Erythronium hybrid
This is a vigorous form which increases vegetatively quite fast. I would hazard a guess that the parents are E. revolutum & E. californicum ‘White Beauty’, the flower colour & the divided style coming from the former & the vigour & the fairly slender filaments (compared with E. revolutum) from the latter. The fairly unexciting leaves are also reminiscent of ‘White Beauty’.
I’d be interested to hear what Ian & Ed think.
[The well-marked leaves on the bottom right are those of E.californicum just coming into flower]
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Ian and I just enjoying your pix now, Gerry. We have several of that ilk... certainly revolutum x either White Beauty or californicum... this gives the lovely markings inside the flower and the happy inclination to clump up.
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Here some Erythronium from my garden:
Ery. dens-canis 'Lilac Wonder'
'' '' Mix several seedlings
'' '' bed with some forms
Dirk - that's a very impressive collection of E.dens-canis. I wish they grew as well for me.
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Here is Erythronium grandiflorum with brown anthers just starting to flower here. I certainly think it is worthy of a place in the garden.
Susan
I would certainly agree Susan. Very striking. 8)
I have Erythronium sibericum 'Olja' just coming out, but the flower opened before it had cleared the leaves and the lovely pale pink flowers are not looking good. :-\
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These Erythronium are amazing! I wish they were available in South Africa! Anybody willing to part with some seed when the time is right? :)
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Susan,
this Erythronium grandiflorum is very nice, i have no luck with this species.
Here some Erythronium from my garden:
Ery. dens-canis 'Lilac Wonder'
'' '' Mix several seedlings
'' '' bed with some forms
Very impressive line-up Dirk ! :o
Almost like a commercial operation !
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Maggi and Ian -I had the same or similar hybrid appearing in my garden ,and as
you mention ,it clumps up nicely.
ciao Otto.
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Here's a strange Erythronium in Harold McBrides garden.
Ian Y you must come back next April at this time to see Bob's, Harold's and Margaret G's Erythroniums.
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Mark - that looks like a confused E. revolutum which thinks it is a tulip. There are a few tulips which think they are erythroniums - all being well I'll post one in a few days time.
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Erythronium hybrid
This is a vigorous form which increases vegetatively quite fast. I would hazard a guess that the parents are E. revolutum & E. californicum ‘White Beauty’, the flower colour & the divided style coming from the former & the vigour & the fairly slender filaments (compared with E. revolutum) from the latter. The fairly unexciting leaves are also reminiscent of ‘White Beauty’.
I will concur with the parentage. And, while theoretically the white flowered parent could be E. multiscapoideum or E. citrinum, "White Beauty" would seem a more likely to have been growing in a garden near E. revolutum.
On a related topic - a photo of Erythronium revolutum was on the front page of our local newspaper today - see
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/news/cityregion/11326580-41/story.csp (you may need to click on the tab that says "photo" to actually see the photograph).
Ed
Ed
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Ed - thanks for the comment.
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Here's my Erythronium multiscapoideum cliftonii + a close up enjoying yesterday's sunshine. :D
Second is E. sibericum - last year it flowered underground... - this year the cold Winter seems to have encouraged it to do just a little bit better... but still far away from perfect... :-\
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Luc - that Erythronium multiscapoideum cliftonii is very nice, a really handsome plant. I've never tried E. sibericum mainly because I've read that it needs very cold winters to perform properly.
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Luc - that Erythronium multiscapoideum cliftonii is very nice, a really handsome plant. I've never tried E. sibericum mainly because I've read that it needs very cold winters to perform properly.
Thanks Gerry - I love it too.
I read the same story about the E. sibericum... but I had to find out the hard way.... ::)
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We have had warm dry weather for the past few days, which is really helps the erythroniums to look their best. On Monday I visited the Hendricks Park Rhododendron Garden in Eugene, where Erythronium revolutum has been planted extensively, because it is more tolerant than other species of the summer irrigation that the rhododendrons are given.
Imagine walking down a garden path on a warm spring day. Along the path is a bench that provides a resting spot, and provides a glimpse of what lies beyond...
click the pix to enlarge
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I had mentioned earlier in this thread my speculation that the plants in this garden originated from some named cultivar, possibly Carl Purdy's "Pink Beauty". One piece of evidence that would suggest this is the fact that plants of E. revolutum in my garden that I have grown from wild collected seed from the nearest part of E. revolutum's natural range (near the coast, about 50 miles west of Eugene), have not yet started blooming. This suggests to me that the Hendricks park plants originated from a more southerly latitude and thus are genetically programmed to flower earlier.
But these plants have reproduced prolifically over the years, so whatever is now there is many generations removed from any original cultivar. In the first photo, you can see how a patch is spreading downhill toward the camera - if you look closely you can see dozens of grass-like first year seedlings. Yet, there are many clumps of E. revolutum here that appear to me to be increasing from offsets. Here is one such form with especially dark leaf mottling.
click the pix to enlarge
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Yesterday (Tuesday) I went for a hike to a local natural area, Mt. Pisgah. Erythronium oregonum grows naturally here, and I found them in full bloom. They seem to be blooming especially prolifically this year.
Some of the flowers have especially colorful markings at the inner base of the tepals. Most of the plants fit the description of E. oregonum ssp. oregonum, but this site is in a transition zone between subspecies, and plants on the right side of the last photo have the cream to sulphur colored tepals that is typical of ssp. leucandrum. The anthers and pollen are yellow rather than white or cream however. But I would think this degree of "intergradation" would be considered appropriate for subspecies at a zone of transition.
click the pix to enlarge
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Ed those are just wonderful.Fantastic pictures of them
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Thanks Tony. It definitely helps when the weather cooperates.
By the way, I didn't re-size these photos sufficiently to see the entire photo when you click on the thumbnail, my apologies! However, if you click on the paper clip icon you can see the entire image.
Ed
Edit by Maggi: I have resized the pix!
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Gorgeous pictures Ed ! Wonderful to see these wild populations ! :o
Thanks a lot for taking us along on your hikes !!
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Ed - many thanks for these wonderful pics. What a lucky man you are to live so near to these beautiful plants!
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Some of my Erythroniums are flowering.
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Ed great to see your pictures I will have to come bagk a bit later next time to see them in full flower.
I am also enjoying everyone elses pictures and will get around to posting some of ours.
We have a lot in flower just now but time is so short that I am not in front of the computer much at the moment -there is far too much to see and photograph in the garden.
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Hans,
Fantastic pics. All appear to different to anything I grow, such lovely strength of colour in the centres of most of them. Would be a pleasure to be growing any of them, so you're even luckier growing ALL of them. ;D Excellent pics, and thanks for showing us. 8)
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Some of my Erythroniums are flowering.
Beautiful Erythronium Hans !
After what happened to you a couple of months ago - they really deserve the name the Americans gave to some of them : Avalanche Lilly... ;)
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Pink form of E. caucasica
(http://cs1935.vkontakte.ru/u6450879/22340033/x_9af2b452.jpg)
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Very nice Olga !
Welcome back !
Here's two more in my garden :
1) and 2) Erythronium hendersonii (from Susan Band's stable ! ;) - doing well ! )
3) E. 'Pagoda' - enjoying the sunshine today !
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Olga and Luc,
Beautiful!!!!! :D :D
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Probably not the best day to play with a new camera as it has been raining most of the day but here are a few Erythroniums in flower today.
Erythronium Minihaha
E. Winifred Lorraine
E. Pagoda
E. Joan Wiley
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Very nice Melvyn.Good to know it rains on other people.Not a cloud in the sky here today!!
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Nor here, 18C this afternoon. Must get some shade paint on the greenhouse (when I did that last year it started to rain and was still raining in August)
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David,
If you could guarantee the same thing here, I'd spring you a trip to Canberra. Oh to have good long rain. I'd live with things rotting during winter if we could just get all our dams filled again. So can you guarantee it would rain if you came here and shade painted a greenhouse?
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If there's a free trip to Canberra in it I can guarantee almost anything ;D
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Ah but David, that depends on the meaning of "guarantee" doesn't it? ;)
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Some of my Erythroniums are flowering.
You have nice Erythroniums Hans. Have they names? I guess #1 and 5 is white sibiricum and #3 is japonicum but the others?
I enclose a picture taken yesterday of sibiricum ssp. altaicum originally from Janis. This is my earliest Erythronium.
Have a nice spring
Göte
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Very nice people
I have some (probably pagoda) that s growing amongst Anmone nemorosa.
They are not flowering yet but since I am 3000 km from the garden there will be no more pics of them.
They look to be have slightly darker marks than some I have seen. Maybe just a camera thing or the colder weather in Sweden?
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We find Pagoda nearly always has these nice markings, Joakim.I'll get photos tomorrow.
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Erythronium californicum
Centre of photo & close up - a superb, vigorous form from Susan Band (Pitcairn Alpines).
At back right of photo is cultivar ‘White Beauty’.
Apologies for the rather mediocre photos.
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Cracking erythroniums everyone, the dens-canis cultivars in my garden and wild Erythroniums have gone over here.
Maybe someone out there will be able to help with this query, the Flora of Bulgaria lists E.dens-canis as the only species in Bulgaria, all photographs are for pink flowered plants. In this area of the Elenska Balkan all Erythroniums have white flowers, so are these ssp niveum as per Romania?
Attached here a plant I bought as E.multiscapodium, I live in hope that it might reflex its flower soon!
It did, a couple of days later!
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Ian's most recent bulb log talks about the diversity of forms of Erythronium revolutum, which makes sense considering that is geographic range extends along the west coast from 39 degrees to 51 degrees north latitude. As I mentioned earlier, I have a patch grown from seed collected in the Oregon Coast Range west of Eugene. Last summer I dug up the bulbs because they were growing poorly and moved them to a better spot. They are now in flower, and they do seem to be growing and flowering much better this year, and here are some photos. Note that on some of the plants, the outer surface of the outer 3 tepals are a darker shade of pink than the inner three. I find myself wondering if these plants might represent what is called var. johnsonii, the type locality of which is the Oregon Coast Range. I've had a hard time finding out exactly where the type specimen was collected, as the original paper does not specify. Just another mystery to try to solve!
In the first photo you can see my squirrel barrier, a piece of chicken wire. It does keep the squirrels from digging up the bulbs, but it makes it hard to weed while the plants are flowering!
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Attached here a plant I bought as E.multiscapodium, I live in hope that it might reflex its flower soon!
Hristo, note that the plant on the left shows two separate flowering scapes coming from a single pair of leaves, so it can only be E. multiscapoideum!
Ed
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Cheers Ed, I had thought it was probably a good name to plant match but I have little information on Erythroniums. Apart from the leaf damage this species has done much better since it moved into a fairly heavy clay soil.
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Here is Erythronium Joanna in the garden yesterday, unfortunately the pink doesnt show well.
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Here is Erythronium Joanna in the garden yesterday, unfortunately the pink doesnt show well.
Brian,
Will the pink in "Joanna" perhaps appear as the flowers mature? Or is it that your camera just didn't pick up the pink part of the spectrum?
Ed
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I don't know why it is Ed, I have posted pictures last year in which it was plain to see, perhaps something to do with the light? It does show better on the buds.
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Re-posted here from a thread in flowering now, these pics are of wild E.dens-canis in Bulgaria. In this area in their tens of thousands these plants produce white flowers with a very few rare flowers showing a pink blush.
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Chris,
You've got to add that shot which fully shows the dark leaf from above as well. Then again, pretty much every one of the pics of these that you posted were special, and different to anything I grow here. Just goes to show how limited we are here in Aus as to varieties, although Marcus Harvey in Tas is offering new named dens canis in the last few years (which I of course just HAD to buy! ;D). Very special to see these pics of them in the wild, particularly as in this case human clearing has possibly actually helped them rather than hinder them. They (and the Crocus veluchensis) certainly look prolific enough. Thanks again for the pics.
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Hi Paul, as requested picture of bronzed / red leafed varient attached. True about human activity ( sometimes ), we were postulating that the leaf colour was a reaction to increased light levels, i.e... more red pigment and you are reflecting more of the light bandwidth plants normally absorb with green leaves. This leaf varient only appeared in the open, maybe in 100 years this leaf form will predominate!?
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Chris - Pottertons nursery catalogue lists a plant as E.dens-canis niveum & describes it as from Bulgaria:
http://www.pottertons.co.uk/pott/view_product.php?pid=2373
If Rob Potterton sees this he may be able to provide more information.
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Cheers Gerry, kind of confirms what I thought about Bulgaria having ssp niveum. though as I mentioned the ssp is not listed in Flora Bulgarica, hey ho!
Flowering today;
E.oregonum
E.tuolumnense 'Pagoda'
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This leaf varient only appeared in the open, maybe in 100 years this leaf form will predominate!?
Hope I'm still around to see it. ;D
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:D I understand that one, it is great to get a glimpse of natural selection at work, a privilege normally reserved for much longer lived things, like mountains and rocks! :D :D
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Wonderful shots Chris !
That "Top of the heap" picture is a w e s o m e !! :o
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I am glad that I have just found this thread and I am posting some pictures of Erythroniums some very odd ones which I have also sent to Ian Young please help with names,, I do know what some are, cheers Ian the Christie kind
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Ian,
Wow. "Ery 4" in particular is very striking. Love those throat markings. Sort of reminiscent of markings of japonicum isn't it (although I've only seen pics of that, never in person). Very, very nice whatever it is.
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Hi again, erythronium 4 is a E. hendersonii hybrid. I post a picture of a natural hybrid this is a seedling from erythronium Sundisc the leaves are very dark and the flowers pale yellow, cheers ian the Christie kind.
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Ian,
Jens Neilson is just back from looking at E. hendersonii in the wild, He saw loads of different colour forms ranging from nearly white to dark lilac. Better doing that and moving tables for Perth Show.
Susan
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Yes indeed Susan, thanks for your efforts the show was good, a few exhibitors missing and sorry but we had to fly home. cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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[This message moved from General Subjects > Flowers and Foliage Now]
Attached, two photos of Erythronium revolutum from the Cowichan Valley, Vancouver Island.
The first is a peculiar aberrant form, the flowers somewhat of an apricot color rather than the usual clear pink. (This color difference is not evident in the photo.) The flowers are also somewhat irregular in form. I collected two bulbs of this along the river quite a number of years ago, in an area where both E. revolutum and E. oregonum grow. In spite of the hundreds of other plants of erythronium in that area, these were the only two of this form. The two aberrant bulbs were not at the same site, one of them being so close to the bank that it probably would have washed away the next time the river flooded.
It is not a hybrid between the two species growing there. Hybrids of E. revolutum and E. oregonum are common around Skutz Falls (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=48.783964,-123.954577&spn=0.01264,0.029655&t=p&z=15) and are what you would expect: pinks, white, and all colors in between, but nothing like this form.
It may be a hybrid with E. grandiflorum, which grows on Mt. Prevost (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=48.832916,-123.764505&spn=0.025255,0.059309&t=p&z=14) but the two sites are about 5 miles apart: rather far for a bee to fly.
The other picture is of a white-flowered form of E. revolutum found upstream from the ecological reserve on Sutton Creek (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=48.824857,-124.206474&spn=0.001579,0.003707&t=k&z=18). Again, this was a single bulb among a pure stand of thousands upon thousands of ordinary E. revolutum. It is rather frailer than usual with E. revolutum, as is common with albino plants.
While the apricot aberrant form has multiplied modestly over the years, the white-flowered form remains a single bulb to this day.
Are these garden worthy plants? Not really. Both the common local species of Erythronium (E. oregonum and E. revolutum) are very easy from seed and I actually prefer their cleaner lines, greater vigor, and more regular form than these two curiosities of nature.
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Rodger mentioned the Skutz Falls hybrids between oregonum, which
grows in dry woods, and revolutum, which grows along the stream.
I planted one or two in my garden about 32 years ago, and they have
been seeding around ever since. They are almost all various shades of
pink, but one is white.
One pale one has put itself into a dogwood (Cornus nuttallii) trunk, across
the path from the main group. The pathway also has them. Every year
I intend to dig them out, but haven't got around to it yet.
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Hi Diane,
What a stunning patch of Erythronium, leave em in the path! In the UK I had marsh orchids in my paths, my Mum had cyclamen in hers! Do your hybrids set seed? Anyways, if you would like to swap some Erythronium seed ever please pm me.
Chris.
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Hi again, thanks for the new pictures, I post a special Erythronium picture which Is a hybrid Ery. revolutum called Carol Scott one picture two stages show just how different it is the flower spike is almost bent double then as the flowers open it becomes upright with several flower on each spike it is very nice, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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That's a corker of a flower Ian!
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Ian,
What a beauty. Lovely characteristics. Hopefully someone imports it into Aus at some point. Beautiful! 8)
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My (non-white) E sibiricum is now in flower. This is year #2. Year #1 it was not very good. I get the impression that Erythroniums do not like to be moved around. Is that a general experience or am I just careless? Anyway It is quite nice.
I placed these two japonicum in a position that makes photos very difficult (mea culpa :( )
Göte
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All stunning, Gote!! 8)
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I saw this 'Snow Goose' in Margaret Glynn's garden last week.
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Following up on Hristo's post about the purple-leaved E. dens-canis, I just noticed a photo on the web of a purple-leaved plant of Erythronium oregonum, so this phenomenon can occur in other species. The photo is on the CalPhotos web site at
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?where-taxon=Erythronium%20oregonum.
The photographer's note attached to the photo says "This is an exceptionally dark purple-brown leafed form. I have watched it mature from a single dark leaf to a double-leafed flowering specimen this year. The stem and flower are normally colored."
Ed
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A photo of the wild form of Erythronium californicum.
This is growing in my garden, in quite heavy, dampish soil that is waterlogged in winter. Leaves of an epimedium at left and along bottom; leaves of a spuria iris in background; erythronium leaves in lower right corner.
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I usually only get 2-3 flowers a year. How can I get these to flower. I have thousands of single leaf plants, yet only a few flowers each spring. Thanks for info.
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Göte, super Erythroniums, great to see E.japonicum, a real stunner!
Guff - I have this problem with my E.dens-canis cultivars, and from observations in the wild I do wonder if they simply have good and bad years, but on the off chance it may help I am minded to plant some of mine much deepr. i.e.. 10 to 15cm below surface level to see if this helps flowering next year. Good Luck!
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Whilst visiting Gothenburg botanic gardens last year - we presented the problem of non flowering Erythronium americanum to Gerben Tjeerdsma who guided us around. They hat lots of E. americanum all flowering like mad. He said they had had the same problem and they got the Erythroniums flowering freely after replanting them and digging in lots and lots of old rotted manure... ever since they had been flowering beautifully.
I did the same with a clump of non flowering E. tuolumnense - it took them one growing season to regain their strength and this year they've been flowering profusely. I believe every single bulb produced a flowering stem :D! I posted a pic earlier in this Erythronium thread ! Obviously they also get their ration of Potash !
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Hristo, Luc, thanks.
Do you think putting down 3-4 inches of leaf compost in the fall would work? It would be a major job digging them up and redoing the bed.
Last summer I dug up around 20 and planted in another spot. I see one flower bud so far. I may start another bed when they start to die down.
Took another picture.
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Hi Guff, sounds like a plan, they get the deeper planting and the nutrient input Luc suggests! The ones that are flowering are rather attractive so here's hoping for more in your garden next year!
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Flowering today;
E.oregonum
E.tolumense 'Pagoda'
That E. oregonum you have is from a southerly population. Here in British Columbia, E. o. is uniformly white (perhaps with a subliminal ivory tinge), but further south, in Oregon, you get creamy colored ones.
I'll try to take some illustrative photos tomorrow and post them.
Though you likely know it, 'Pagoda' is a hybrid of E. tuolumnense, as are 'Kondo' and 'Citronella'.
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Guff,
Which Erythronium species is that? Very nice leaves but with strong yellow flowers! ??? Is it grandiflorum?
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Guff's Ery is the E. americanum/umbilicatum type.... we'd call it americanum here!!
We have had similar problems with the proliferating form which makes carpets of single leaves..... but in recent years it has finally decided to begin making twin leaves and flowers...... mostly a complete mystery to us!
We were not able to perfom the dig and manure trick that seems to have worked in Gothenburg, but if it is possible, I'd suggest trying it. Maybe the mulch route is worth a go too.... can't hurt, I reckon.
Paul.... the Bulb Log is always a good source ;) for instance.... http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2008/160108/log.html 8)
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Hi Rodger,
Many thanks for the information about the E.oregonum, it's great to have that kind of information about a treasured plant from those who live in their neighbourhood! :)
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Hi Rodger,
Many thanks for the information about the E.oregonum, it's great to have that kind of information about a treasured plant from those who live in their neighbourhood! :)
Hristo, Rodger is correct about the different forms of E. oregonum, what you have is ssp. lecucandrum from southern Oregon. I would suggest, however, that you check the stamen filaments to verify the id - if they are flattened, they are E. oregonum, if they are more "thread-like" your plant may be E. californicum. The filaments don't appear to be visible in the photo you posted.
Ed
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Thanks everyone for the help.
I sprinkled some bonemeal, then in the fall I will add the leaf compost.
Noticed this stolon sticking up, so I removed the dirt around the leaf, the bulb is maybe 1/2 inch under the soil. I will dig this spot up when they start to die down, and dig in compost. There are around 50 single leaves and the two flowering plants, this will be a good test try.
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Cheers for the additional input Ed, I will take a close look tomorrow and report back! ;)
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There are some photos of Erythronium montanum and possible
hybrids of it in this week's Bulb Log 17. Ian wondered how variable
it is in the wild.
Here are some growing in an active logging site on the San Juan Ridge
on southern Vancouver Island. Some which were about to be obliterated
were taken home by one of the loggers and are growing well at a lower
altitude, though still fairly close to this area. They flower at the end
of May on the ridge, and I must ask my brother (the logger mentioned
above) when his flower. I will add the information when I have it.
The buds varied greatly in colour, some being dark red, but all the
flowers were white.
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Thanks for posting those pics Diane, nice to know some of these stately looking plants were rescued!
Ed, the stamen filaments are flattened on the plant I have / had as E.oregonum, the beasties have been and chewed through the leaf stalk two inches below ground, :'( :'(
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Something a little different - Erythronium sibiricum subsp. sibiricum and row with E. sibiricum subsp. altaicum.
Janis
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Janis,
In my place var sibiricum is 10 - 12 days later than v altaicum. Yours seem to be in the same stage. Any comment?
Göte
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Janis,
In my place var sibiricum is 10 - 12 days later than v altaicum. Yours seem to be in the same stage. Any comment?
Göte
subsp. sibiricum allways is at least week later. Here altaicum at end of blooming, note few earliest flowers fading turn slightly lilac. Group of typica is just starting, no bed with flowers covered. This spring is very late and more compressed, but diference still is very great.
Janis
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Diane
Wow, thanks for posting the pictures of E. montanum. It is a complete revelation to me to see the pink/red buds - do they retain that colour when they open or do they open white? I have a few plants that pick up a hint of pink just as the flowers start to fade.
On the subject of the non-flowering E. americanum ours started to flower better at exactly the same time as the ones in Gothenburg started to flower freely. We had done nothing and I suspect that it is climatic.
For some reason this form of E. americanum sends out masses of stolons that produce juvenile bulbs which next year send out more stolons and so it goes on.
Someting triggers them to grow into mature bulbs producing two leaves and a flower.
Interestingly these bulbs do not send out stolons or perhaps a single stolon. One clump we have is now made up almost entirely of adult bulbs with few single leaves.
The patch in the pictures below is not at such an advanced stage yet but it is producing more and more flowering bulbs each year.
I am still none the wiser as to what makes them suddenly settle down and flower freely: Gothenburg think it was the dung increasing the fertility I think that other factors are involved but anything is worth trying.
I have a number of selected forms of E. anericanum that flower freely every year and produce few stolons.
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Janis what a sight, I have never seen so many Erythronium sibiricum subsp. altaicum before :D
Back to the subject of E. montanum an interesting point that should be noted is that it has three filaments shorter than the other three a character that it shares with E. japonicum and to a lesser extent E. elegans.
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I saw no colour on any of the open montanum. I haven't heard
from my brother yet about how they flower in his garden.
I just heard. He can't tell me as he has a deer problem.
The spring '09 issue of NARGS' Rock Garden Quarterly has
an interesting article, 'Sophisticated Trout Lilies' by Don L. Jacobs
of Eco-Gardens in Georgia, U.S.A., about the stoloniferous species
of his part of the continent, E. rostratum, umbilicatum and
americanum.
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On the subject of the non-flowering E. americanum ours started to flower better at exactly the same time as the ones in Gothenburg started to flower freely. We had done nothing and I suspect that it is climatic.
I have a number of selected forms of E. anericanum that flower freely every year and produce few stolons.
Ian,
Are you joking? Same climate Scotland and west Sweden ??? Mid Sweden has definitely NOT had the same blessing :(. I only get juvenile stoloniferous bulblets. Fritillaria (Sarana) camtschatkensis dark form does the same. I have small bulbs on the end of 5-10cm stolons coming up all over the place. However, some of them grow to maturity :). seemingly in lighter better fertilized areas. I have yet to find out what is wrong with the Erythroniums. I will take the hint given above of more fertlizing and I will try a lighter position. However, it could be the clone. Bulbs that multiply quickly but do not necessarily set seed are of course Darwinistically favoured in a gardening situation.
Göte
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To suggest that something happens as the result of a climatic effect is surely not the same thing as suggesting that two places share a similar climate?
I do not find it unreasonable to postulate that the change from proliferation to flowering of the Erythronium americanum in Gothenburg and Aberdeen in the same season, given that the same cultivation changes were not followed in both places.
It seems that for many years the clones of E. americanum in both places ( not originally from the same source, I suspect) proliferated at a terrific rate, entirely at the expense of flowering but, in the same season, both suddenly began to make dual leaves and began to flower, increasingly well. Of the problem were entirely due to a non-flowering clone, what happened to transform the habit of both colonies at that time? It may simply have been an age related progression but might there not well have been a climatatic "incident" which affected the plants in both areas?
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I am geographically much closer to Gothenburg than Aberdeen is (270 versus 900 km) and I had zero blessing from the climate. Thus I find the climatic explanation very farfetched (some 1170 km. ;) ).
Is it not more likely that you both did some change in the cultivation at the same time? We already have the indication that Gothenburg started to manure more heavily. Are you sure you did not do something similar? The fact that both locations produced mature plants at approximately the same time should be a very valuable circumstance that could give a clue to what we other sufferers could do :'(.
The ones I have seen wild have been just like what you describe but were growing in fairly dark places. Do you know for sure that neither of you did change the amount of light at the same time? If Mr murphy is arouind it might be different changes that made the trick not the same.
It cannot (only) be that they are undisturbed and suddenly mature. Mine have been undisturbed many years but have never sent up a single flower.
It is a general complaint that most clones of americanum remain juvenile (if that is what they are) I am not sure where I got mine, only that the two first times I got "americanum" they did flower but turned out pink >:( The ones I finally got were referred to as "Not the type that only produces leaves" and that was obviously wrong - at least in my place. If the vendor was right (He has been wrong before) it is not clonal but cultural.
Hoping to find a clue how to make them flower
Göte
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We made no changes to the growing regime of the Erythronium americanum whatsoever. The development to begin flowering was nothing of our doing.
Might you not consider that a similar peculiar climatic incident might occur at geographically disparate sites ? Freak storms, for instance can occur at the same time in different places, far apart..... but the fact that a neighbouring area to one site was "missed out" does not preclude the effects of the storm in the places where it did "hit" ???
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My understanding of Don Jacobs' article is that E. americanum is
tetraploid and always stoloniferous. E. umbilicatum is diploid and
usually non-stoloniferous, though there are stoloniferous colonies
in upland sites. E. mesochoreum is non-stoloniferous. E. rostratum
can be either.
I guess the easiest way to get flowers is to avoid americanum.
I have bought it several times but it has never survived long enough
to flower. Like all the Eastern plants I have failed with, it probably
needs more summer moisture than it gets here.
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If any of you who have suddenly got lots of flowering get lots of seed, could you spare me some? E. americanum and E. umbilicatum (the latter I particularly love the pictures I have seen, although my understanding is these species are quite similar) are species I would like to get but haven't managed to source. I one time I was given some small bulbs of americanum they promptly passed on, as did all the bulbs of the person who gave them to me. Something definitely affected them THAT year. ;D I would love to grow the red-backed yellow flowered Erythroniums, which is why I thought I would ask here while they are being discussed flowering at the moment.
Personally, I'd love to try all sorts of Erythroniums, particularly those that might have been hybridising with their neighbours. Some of those hybrids just might be a bit stronger in our harsher climate, although most of the Erythroniums do well here. It is interesting to see the comments re non-flowering.... I find that fertilising makes a huge difference here to species such as tolumnense for example. No feeding, few flowers.... good feed as they're emerging above ground each year and they flower prolifically. At least in our climate this is very much an observable result of fertilising versus not fertilising. It's of course different for everyone. ::)
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One of very few Americans grown by me.
Janis
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We made no changes to the growing regime of the Erythronium americanum whatsoever. The development to begin flowering was nothing of our doing.
Might you not consider that a similar peculiar climatic incident might occur at geographically disparate sites ? Freak storms, for instance can occur at the same time in different places, far apart..... but the fact that a neighbouring area to one site was "missed out" does not preclude the effects of the storm in the places where it did "hit" ???
The non-flowering of Ea is a very irritating enigma. It is irritating to me because I have all those one-leaf stoloniferous bulbs all over the place and no flowers. >:(
Yes of course a climatic incidence of that type is quite possible but I find it unlikely. I also find it unlikely that an incidence would have a lasting influence. We would need to suppose that Eas need a special weather incident to clobber them on the head in order to reach maturity. The combination becomes very unlikely. One question to ask is whether you have any neighbours growing Ea and if they have seen any difference?
It is unfortunately all conjecture from my side - I do not have as much information as I would like to have but let me put down how I see it today.
#1 It is not a clonal problem since we have two instances of populations changing behaviour. (Three if we believe that mine changed from floriferous to non.flriferous) Good news ;D
#2 If someone (you) receives seed/bulblets of someting, grows that in good conditions it will eventually mature to flowering plants. Possibly this is what happened. I would very much have preferred that you suddenly realized that you added "Agent X" because then we could all do it but you seem adamant that you did nothing peculiar. Bad news= No Agent X :( Good news: Good husbandry might bring flowers. :) It would be interesting to know how long time you grew your Eas and from what stage?
#3: Suppose Gothenburg grew their Ea's in a too poor soil but otherwise well. They then fertilized and got flowering plants. They may need more available nutrients than other bulbs to reach maturity. Indicated above and also by Paul. Good News: fertilising MIGHT bring flowers. :)
The obvious conclusion is that the coincidence in timing is the freak - not the weather. I know a professor who would claim that mathematically seen two instances prove nothing. I do not agree with him but mathematically seen it is hardly possible to calculate a significance.
Göte
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Far from an expert but i have seen in the bulb logs that some trees were cut. Have the trees You cut given the plants more light?
As for climate the warm summer might have done the trick last year but Götes lack something and hence did not change. Or the temperature might not have been together with the same humidity in the soil in the beginning end etc. So if this change depends on several factors it is tricky to find all in one go.
There are so many parameters that may vary and not all known so it will be hard to determine what is the reason but maybe if people test they get similar results. I think Luc did give his manure and his got better if I remember correctly. Maybe he did other things as well?
All the best
Joakim
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Adding my tuppence in this discussion.
Earlier on in this thread I posted the story of my congested clump of E. tuolumnense having stopped flowering of couple of years ago.
I lifted them in 2007 and replanted them in heavilly enriched (dried cow manure + potash) soil. In 2008 they produced lots of leaves but not one single flower yet ! This year they flowered profusely (see earlier pic in this thread) I think nearly every single replanted bulb produced a flowering stem and they are now setting seed.
As to the E. americanum question. I visited Gothenburg last year and was stunned by the brilliant display of flowering E.a. Knowing of how difficult it is to get them flowering I asked Gerben Tjeerdsma, who was our guide on the day, how they achieved this result.
His explanation was plain and simple. They had grown E.a. for years before without ever getting them to flower. Some years earlier (he didn't mention the year) they had lifted the lot, dug in lots and lots of manure, replanted them and they had been flowering profusely ever since.
They were planted next to their covered bulb area in a shady bed along a concrete wall and received ample rain throughout the year.
Amongst others, lots of Corydalis hybrids and Trilliums were flowering just as well.
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Götes lack something and hence did not change.
You are certainly right in that i did not feed them very much and I believe you are right. Had I known what I now believe is true, they would have been put in a different position with a lot of manure. - I am going to do that now. I have always been afraid to overfeeding since that may increase the incidence of diseases and make plants less frost hardy. Thus I only manure things like big blue poppies Cardiocrinums and nymphaeas where I know it makes sense.
Göte
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A further complication to the stolons or flowers story. Over many years I found that so called flowering forms I had purchased produced only leaves and stolons, but no flowers. Then the two years ago a friend gave me plants of another "guaranteed" flowering strain. As there were several bulbs (still in leaf). I planted some in three different places. Last year, as expected no flowers but it was apparent that at least one clump was producing stolons. This year one clump, which had formed a tight clump with many leaves, flowered (only two flowers but at least it was better than my previous attempts). The other two batches did not clump-up but produced stolons. Nutrition, looser or firmer soil all come to mind as possible explanations. Perhaps the stoloniferous plants were just looking for a better place to live! Certainly, while stoloniferous plants can become flowering plants, so called non-stoloniferous forms can revert to produce stolons depending on condition.
Brian Wilson (Aberdeen)
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A couple of cents worth from me too. I have only E. umbilicatum, not americanum. Mine is stoloniferous but still flowers quite well, a dozen flowers last spring on a patch about 35 cms across. People sometimes ask what the difference is between the two species. None at all until they are in seed, when americanum has a little horn or point at the tip of the seed pod while umbilicatum has an indented or "belly button" arrangement, the umbilicus in fact.
Meant to say that the flowers are always at the centre of the patch, single-leaved slolons at the edges, suggesting that the inner, older bulbs do, in fact, mature to flowering size.
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Earlier on in this thread I posted the story of my congested clump of E. tuolumnense having stopped flowering of couple of years ago.
I lifted them in 2007 and replanted them in heavilly enriched (dried cow manure + potash) soil. In 2008 they produced lots of leaves but not one single flower yet ! This year they flowered profusely (see earlier pic in this thread) I think nearly every single replanted bulb produced a flowering stem and they are now setting seed.
Luc,
It probably took them a year to recharge themselves. I think the key with mine now is that I fertilise them every year, so they get a feed coming into flower, with enough left after flowering to help them set up the size for next year (if you know what I mean). As an interesting note, I have never ever had seed on my tolumnense no matter how many flowers I have had. Were yours grown from seed (and therefore contain different clones) or were they from an original single purchase? Mine were all from a single original purchase so the fact they're the same clone may be the problem. Not that I actually NEED them to seed given how well they multiply of course. I also do have to wonder about our pollinators here in Aus, as so often people comment on things seeding happily overseas that never do here, but that could also just be climate. Who knows. ;)
I'm finding this discussion fascinating!! 8)
Great to hear that umbilicatum is doing so well for you Lesley. :)
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From my experience E. americanum rarely flowers even in the wild where extensive populations exist. In such cases only a handful of plants may flower out of a thousand bulbs. In some years, this is one of them, a large number of bulbs will flower. The past two seasons were drought stricken and starting in December we got rain, lots of rain, over 40cm in two months. This continued until the bulbs flowered heavily this year, but unfortunately the bulbs are formed the previous year when the rain was lacking so it provides no explanation, unless the two year drought triggered flowering.
With E. rostratum patches in the garden take a year or two to re-establish and then flower consistently for me in Kansas previously and now here in eastern Tennessee. As Lesley pointed out, with both species, the clumps will flower in the center of a patch and the outer bulbs are the younger from stolons.
With E. umbilicatum they flower every year and never make stolons, at least in subsp. umbilicatum, but in subsp. monostolon, from the higher elevations of the southern Appalachians in Tennessee and North Carolina, makes a single stolon per year and is also not always umbilicate.
As far as telling them apart in flower, look at the petal bases for auricles; in umbilicatum they are absent except for subsp monostolon which has irregular tepal margins (just to add confusion), but the others have them. Also the seed capsules are not always so clear cut in umbilicatum and americanum where their ranges overlap, but the posture of the seed capsules and cross section do offer other distinctions; the capsules of americanum are held well off the ground and umbilicatum reclines or is just off the ground, and the cross section of americanum is nearly triangular while umbilicatum is 3-lobed, the lobes rounded.
Brian, these were not from me were they?
All the best,
Aaron
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. People sometimes ask what the difference is between the two species. None at all until they are in seed,
In other words there is no difference for us unlucky who never get a flower- :'(
Göte
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Paul,
My E. tuolumnense were not from seed but bought in a pot many years ago - don't remember if there was one or more bulbs in the pot.
As to setting seed - I don't remember them setting seed before, but they are doing so this year. ???
I agree with you : this is a fascinating thread.
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On the very interesting debate on the flowering/nonflowering of Erythronium americanum.
I simply stated the fact that the Gothenburg ones started flowering the same year as ours did as an interesting observation.
We changed nothing in the beds that ours were growing in, the trees only had their canopies thinned last year and the E. americanum have been flowering well for several years now.
I am sure that there are several factors involved and it is not just a case of lots of feeding.
You have to look at the wider picture and when Gothenburg added lots of manure they not only increased levels of some essential elements but also increased the water holding capacity of the ground - this may be a major factor allowing the bulbs to grow to maturity.
I am convinced that climate is a factor, it could be temperature related or increased rainfall at critical times or both.
Another fact to note is that once they start to form flowering sized bulbs they seem to continue to do so and produce less stolons.
Flowering bulbs can as Brian points out revert to making masses of stolons and there are forms of E. dens-canis that proliferate by producing masses of single leaves from a tight clump, as they do not produce stolons, in certain conditions. Once they are in that state it is not easy to get them back to flowering size.
As to telling the different Eastern yellow Erythroniums apart I think we are greatly hampered in cultivation, certainly in the UK, because we often have the same plants, mostly E. americanum, mascarading under the various names. This has confused me for a long time and explains why I found it difficult to accept that there are distinct if closely related species. I have seen some detailed pictures of the species now and am looking forward to getting correctly named plants sometime.
The most common form of E. tuolumnense rarely produces any seed and if it does it is only one or two seeds per capsule. We have a number of forms raised from seed and these do provide us with seeds in favourable years.
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As to setting seed - I don't remember them setting seed before, but they are doing so this year. ???
Luc,
Interesting. I wonder what the difference was this year? Then again, maybe another one flowered at exactly the right time this year and they're all hybrid seed? I don't know which species will hybridise with tolumnense though, so can't help in that regard. Quite fascinating that you have a heavy seed set this year when you normally get none. It very much makes me wonder whether it is hybridisation or just the "right" conditions this year as opposed to normal. Interesting!! ???
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Actually they're planted at the front of the house and the only other Erythroniums flowering at the same time were all at the back... so I don't think they'd be hybrids.. ??? ::)
As you said - this whole thread if very interesting. ;)
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Ed,
here my first Erythronium,
Erythronium caucasicum
I am not sure that this plant is E. dens/canis. Here is Erythronium caucasicum from my garden. Is it right?
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Some of my Erythroniums are flowering.
You have nice Erythroniums Hans. Have they names? I guess #1 and 5 is white sibiricum and #3 is japonicum but the others?
I enclose a picture taken yesterday of sibiricum ssp. altaicum originally from Janis. This is my earliest Erythronium.
Have a nice spring
Göte
I see that it is amost the same as mine. So that I have E. altaicum?
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Aaron, no the latest americanum I received were not from you but a prominant grower and former club president in Scotland. The two Erythroniums you sent were umbilicatum one of which has flowered properly this year and rostratum which is still recovering. Both are in plunged basket pots so I can keep an eye on them.
The point I wanted to make that stolons/ non stolons seem to be reversible in both directions depending on conditions.
Brian Wilson
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Another fact to note is that once they start to form flowering sized bulbs they seem to continue to do so and produce less stolons.
Fritillaria camtschatkensis (Blackish form) behaves in a similar way in my place. Mine are all of the same clone but behave in two distinct ways. Mature bulbs are 2.5-4cm in diameter and will send up a flowering spike. They will do that year after year. However they will also send out a few thin stolons with a miniature bulb (0.5-1 cm) at the end. This bulb will send up one leaf and a new stolon and I have these one-leafers all over the place. When they have found a place to their liking they will start to bulk up and turn into the flowering stage. It sems that the likable places are more nutritious and slightly lighter. This year the best ones seem to come in the middle of a Meconopsis bed. That area is hig in humus.
Göte
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Another Erythronium which sends out stolons and creeps about for me is E. albidum. But it also has one or two flowers each year and this year has even set a seed pod. Does anyone else have experience with this species?
Brian Wilson
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Great info everyone.
For an experiment, I will dig up 100 americanum when they start to die down.
I will start a new bed/spot, remove all the soil down to 10 inches and replace with leaf compost. I will then place the bulbs at different soil depth levels
I was thinking I would start at 5.5 inches below the surface.
25 at 5.5 inch
25 at 5 inch
25 at 4.5 inch
25 at 4. inch
Or should I try 1 inch difference. I thought maybe 6 inches deep would be too deep? It will take a few years to see the results, but I thought it would be interesting experiment.
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It seems you are well placed to experiment with them, Guff. I'm wondering if I'll lift some single leaf-ers and pot them in very rich compost to see if that works ?
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Brian,
E. albidum is just as bad in behavior as E. americanum. Most clones do nothing more than send out runners and make single leaves. An area in eastern Kansas had acres of this but in most years I could never find more than a dozen or so flowers. E. mesochoreum is a far better species with some forms fragrant like Lilium speciosum. It is does not make runners and, for me, flowers every year.
I came across a hillside with many seedpods (E. umbilicatum) on the ground today. The leaves were completely gone, but the pod and stem were still present. The capsules were just beginning to deteriorate. I will take a photo of a capsule tomorrow.
Aaron Floden
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It seems you are well placed to experiment with them, Guff. I'm wondering if I'll lift some single leaf-ers and pot them in very rich compost to see if that works ?
Might be an interesting experiment Maggi !
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Is this behavior of sending out stolon a way to "cover as much land" as possible and then when tis is done flower? So would just cramping have an effect? What happens if one puts them in a long pot without a bottom so that they are cramped at the sides or at least they will be after some time? I do not know if anyone has tried this or similar style? I know Ian Y. often has company to his bulbs so that they behave better. Not sure if he has said anything about this.
Guff nice experiment, maybe playing with the amount of fertilization as well in giving half of the 25 some extra and the others none? Maybe the leaf mold is so rich that this doe s not have any effect but I do not know.
Having just a few pagodas that most of are flowering does not make much possibilities to do experiments.
All the best and this is very interesting thread.
Kind regards
Joakim edit later spelling my name correctly ::)
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It seems you are well placed to experiment with them, Guff. I'm wondering if I'll lift some single leaf-ers and pot them in very rich compost to see if that works ?
Might be an interesting experiment Maggi !
Well, yes, Luc, but it never worked before!
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...oops....
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Another Erythronium which sends out stolons and creeps about for me is E. albidum. But it also has one or two flowers each year and this year has even set a seed pod. Does anyone else have experience with this species?
Brian Wilson
I have one that has been sending up two leaves and one flower for at least five years. No stolon, no seed. Only the same plant year after year.
G.öte
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Gote,
Then your plant is likely E. mesochoreum. Albidum is a weed, more so than E. americanum.
To confirm this when yours flowers, E. mesochoreum does not reflex its tepals completely, the leaves have less to no mottling and tend to be U-shaped in cross section, and the capsule, if it ever makes one, is umbilicate vs apiculate, rounded, or possibly indented. The capsule in E. albidum is held erect and that of E. mesochoreum rests on the ground. Also, E. albidum is tetraploid and E. mesochoreum is diploid. Like the eastern yellow species, the eastern white species are very similar, the diploids are better plants all around, flower yearly, and they even share similar capsule morphology.
Aaron Floden
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Then your plant is likely E. mesochoreum. Albidum is a weed, more so than E. americanum.
I got it from a presumably reputable source which sold me dens-canis as americanum >:(
I have no literature to help me confirm the name so a confirmed name would be welcome.
I enclose a couple of pictures
Thank you in advance
Göte
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Gote,
I would call that E. mesochoreum. The leaves are heavily glaucous, without mottling, and do not lie flat on the ground the way E. albidum should. Albidum also feels membranous to the touch, kind of like its made of rubber and E. mesochoreum feels stiff. I wish I had some pictures so you could see my plants.
Aaron
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About a month ago I unearthed 2 very tiny bulbs of Erythronium revolutum from their seed pots. One is about 1/4 of an inch and the other 1/16 of an inch. They have been stored dry in a ziplock bag. I am wondering if I should pot them and whether they should be kept slightly dry, dry or moist while dormant.
johnw
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The revolutums here grow along stream banks. Our streams
diminish in summer, but the soil would still be damp.
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John,
The rule for Erythronium seems to be to not let them dry out when out of the soil.
In fact, I think you better replant them asap after getting them out of their pots !
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Thanks Diane and Luc - They looked very shiny and plump when removed from the bag and have now been repotted and gingerly watered. Of more than 100 very fresh seeds only 3 came up in the 3rd year, one rotted in the interim.
johnw
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That's a very poor germination for fresh revolutum. I find it is among the most reliable to seed first, then to germinate quite quickly. I like to leave germinated erys in their pot for 2 years then the whole lot into a bigger pot for a year, before planting out or potting for the nursery.
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I have to echo other remarks that 3% germination of Erythronium revolutum is very poor germination indeed.
Diane Whitehead remarked that the soil remains damp around it even during our lengthy summer drought. Let me emphasize that point by pointing out that I see it growing best in low positions that clearly flood in the winter. As someone put it, Erythronium revolutum prefers to grow within sound of running water.
For all that, it will take summer drought if planted out and not baked.
I wonder, John, if you were sent stale seed or seed that was heated at some point in transit.
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It's very odd that they took three years to come up.
I sow mine when ripe, in midsummer, and they are up
in February.
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John's comment about his revolutum bulbs looking "very shiny
and plump" made me curious so I just went out and dug up two
bulbs. They were about 35 cm deep. One looks odd - maybe it
is something else. With having to dig around tree roots, I did
not manage to extract the bulb with the stem and seedpod still
attached, but I can't think what else it could be.
I have included the seedpods and some almost-ripe seeds in the picture.
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They both look like erythroniums to me.
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John's comment about his revolutum bulbs looking "very shiny
and plump" made me curious so I just went out and dug up two
bulbs. They were about 35 cm deep. One looks odd - maybe it
is something else. With having to dig around tree roots, I did
not manage to extract the bulb with the stem and seedpod still
attached, but I can't think what else it could be.
I have included the seedpods and some almost-ripe seeds in the picture.
Diane - Don't read too much into my comments. Remember the bulbs are jvenile and tiny as mentioned and have no tunics. so shiny and plump meant they are not dessicated after a month or more stored dry in a plastic ziplock.
Some day they may look like yours but I expect a good long wait at this rate.
johnw
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No, it was just curiosity as I have not seen any western
Erythronium bulbs before. I wondered if they had a shiny
tunic like tulips do.
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I wonder, John, if you were sent stale seed or seed that was heated at some point in transit.
Roger - Alleyne Cook sent me the seed as soon as it ripened. Heating in transit might very well explain the poor germination though they looked nice and plump when they arrived and were planted the same day.
johnw
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Back when I grew lots of rhododendrons from seed, I had very
poor germination from mailed seeds. I figured it had something
to do with flying over the Rockies. Seeds left sitting in a dish in
my kitchen would still be viable the next year, but some aspect
of mailing seemed to harm the seeds.
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So pleased to see someone else has seeds sitting around in small dishes. :) 0r saucers, plates, margerine pots, the occasional Doulton cream jug.....I'll get to them all, someday.
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Whether transit over the Rockies could make a difference I can't possibly say but yesterday I received some Hellebore seed from Barnhaven in France. They tell me sow it immediately, which I shall, today, and that it will come up by the end of the year, which would be winter in the north. However, my seasons are reversed so that would be summer and I suspect I may get no germination until March/April 2010 or perhaps even 6 months later, in the spring.
What I'm really saying is that seeds is seeds is seeds and they'll do their own thing when and if they're ready, regardles of locality, season, freshness, sowing conditions or other treatment. I've learned never to be anxious if what I expect to happen doesn't, just to be thrilled when it does, no matter how long it takes. I'm always reluctant to give advice about what will happen for any particular seeds - not that that stops me - but just encourage to sow and hope. In the meantime, the whole subject gives us endless opportunities for discussion.
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Whether transit over the Rockes could make a difference I can't possibly say but yesterday I received some Hellebore seed from Barnhaven in France. They tell me sow it immediately, which I shall, today, and that it will come up by the end of the year, which would be winter in the north. However, my seasons are reversed so that would be summer and I suspect I may get no germination until March/April 2010 or perhaps even 6 months later, in the spring.
Lesley - We collect Hellebore seed in early July and can't be bothered sowing it as we are too fried then. So we put them in a ziplock in moist sphagnum and hang them on the fridge magnet to get their required warmth for 2-3 months. Then we sow then in the autumn and they come up after about a month of very cool weather. You could do the same but sow and set outside in late winter after the ziplock and have them up before we do.
johnw
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That sounds like a really good idea John. I'll try it and see what happens. Do you think it would be a good plan for the Jeffersonia seed that arrived today from BC?
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Do you think it would be a good plan for the Jeffersonia seed that arrived today from BC?
Not sure of Jeffersonia's requirements.
johnw
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Lesley,
I have had success with Jeffersonia sown just like my normal bulb seed, i.e on the surface of the seed raising mix, covered in 3-5mm gravel. Providing it is fresh seed they will do fine with that, or at least I had success with both J. dubia and J. diphylla that way a few years ago anyway. 8)
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Dug up some bulbs today. I ran out of compost, so I had to compromise. There was 10 inches at the very bottom of my coum bed that I didn't use, so I decided to plant them there. I planted the bulbs at 2,2.5,3, and 4 inches deep. I suppose they should be farther apart then I planted, next year I will space 3 inches apart. This is temporary until next year when I have the compost to replant them. I wanted them in some good soil this year just to see what they would do.
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I would expect that they will all be fine, Guff. :)
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Thanks Maggi. It will be interesting, a few looked to be flowering size, while others are tiny.
I have a question I'm ordering the following
Erythronium dens-canis 'Frans Hals'
Erythronium dens-canis 'Rose Queen'
Erythronium dens-canis 'Snowflake'
Erythronium dens-canis 'White Splendour'
Having only grown what grows wild here americanum, does these dens-canis types also have stolons or are they grown from seed?
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Thanks Maggi. It will be interesting, a few looked to be flowering size, while others are tiny.
I have a question I'm ordering the following
Erythronium dens-canis 'Frans Hals'
Erythronium dens-canis 'Rose Queen'
Erythronium dens-canis 'Snowflake'
Erythronium dens-canis 'White Splendour'
Having only grown what grows wild here americanum, does these dens-canis types also have stolons or are they grown from seed?
No stolons but they wil split like most bulbs do. The named cultivars you intend to buy are propagated this way. Seedlings will of course vary.
Cheers
Göte
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Göte thanks
I received my order today. I was looking through this thread and some look like their being grown in full sun. Would planting the dens-canis in my hardwoods, where they get winter and spring sun, then summer shade be ok?
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Göte thanks
I received my order today. I was looking through this thread and some look like their being grown in full sun. Would planting the dens-canis in my hardwoods, where they get winter and spring sun, then summer shade be ok?
When it is a question of dens-canis I am sure it will be fine.
Göte
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Göte thanks
Picked up three more forms Lilac Wonder, Purple King, and Japonicum. Does the Japonicum cross with the dens-canis forms? I want to try growing from seed next summer, and don't want to try crossing them if it doesn't, thanks.
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I don't know whether they would cross or not but it seems to me that if they did, you'd get intermediate forms which would take away the distinctiveness of each species. Surely they would be better kept separate as clean species rather than all muddled up.
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Lesley, I like to have something new and unique to look forward to seeing for the very first time, muddled is good in my opinion.
I think thats why I like to hybridize with daylilies so much. You never know what your going to find flowering for the very first time. The mystery and the surprise that awaits you, now thats fun and exciting!
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(keep) the distinctiveness of each species .... rather than all muddled up.
I make sure to keep each species growing as far away from any other as possible
in my garden.
Then I pollinate them, but I haven't produced many seeds. My records go back to
1995. One cross produced two pods, but I have no record of germination.
I don't know whether it is my ineptness (though I have produced many hybrids of
other plants) or whether erythroniums prefer sticking to their own kind.
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[quote author=Guff
Picked up three more forms Lilac Wonder, Purple King, and Japonicum. Does the Japonicum cross with the dens-canis forms? I want to try growing from seed next summer, and don't want to try crossing them if it doesn't, thanks.
[/quote]
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Guff /Diane i have no idea whether they do.
Ian Young in his ,(old),bulb log --number 7/08 shows a number of Erythronium hybrids and makes an interesting comment "I have to admit that my attempts to make specific crosses have failed and all the best erythronium hybrids that I have raised to date have been open pollinated."
Here is a pic sent to me of a hybrid that flowered this spring in NZ.(My plant did not flower).
Cheers Dave.
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I can't agree that "muddled up" is a good thing at all. One has only to see the angst that is on every crocus poster's brow about possible hybridization. It is important for both horticultural and scientific reasons to keep species pure and while hybrids are good in the garden, surely they should only be for some benefit to the gardener, in terms of new form or colours, robustness and disease rersistence or whatever.
Dave beat me to it but I was going to say that the Youngs have many hybrids but that they seem to be spontaneous in the garden rather then planned. One or two have appeared here too, like this lovely one, between revolutum and (possibly) 'White Beauty.'
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The hybrids I keep attempting to make are with E. tuolumnense which
is from California. It is unusual among North American west-coast
species in that it forms offsets. Most of our species produce one bulb
from one seed and do not offset at all.
The yellow-flowered tuolumnense has been crossed with white-flowered
species (californicum and oregonum ) to produce yellow or white-flowered
hybrids like Pagoda, Kondo, and Citronella which are readily available
in the trade here. The hybrids are very vigourous - almost cabbagey
in some cases.
I love hendersonii, with its lavender flowers with a dark centre. It is not
vigourous here - I have planted it several times and feel lucky to have had
one survive.
So, it is the one I keep trying to cross, hoping to get a strong hybrid with
its colouring. I hope that the cross will result in just moderate offsetting so
that I don't produce Pagoda-like cabbages.
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Lesley, your wording not mine "muddled" You show a seedling, now is that a "muddled"? I have to tell you, I'm not sure what muddled means. When I wrote "muddled is a good thing", I meant each seedling is going to be different and unique and whos knows whats going to show up. Then I had thought maybe you meant poor colors/markings seedlings=Muddled?
Anyways I'm glad everyone has their opinion, whether they agree or not. Where would Daylilies, Hellebores and such be if it wasn't for people hybridizing with them?
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Guff I think I've got my topics mixed up somehow as I was sure the "muddled" applied to having various species all growing together in the hope they would produce hybrids, and like Diane, I prefer to keep species separate if possible. But I also thought the word was being applied to Galanthus somewhere, so obviously it is I, myself, who am thoroughly muddled. ??? As I sometimes have to say to people recently, disregard everything you've heard me say.
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Ruapuna Dawn is a really pretty Erythronium, Lesley, a happy spontaneous result :)
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Is E. 'Ruapuna Dawn' the same as E. 'Kinfauns Pink'???
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I don't think so Wim !
I believe Ruapuna Dawn is a hybrid that originated in NZ (or Ozz), whereas "Kingfauns Pink" was raised by Susan Band at Pitcairn nurseries.
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I am unfamiliar with these hybrids. I assume they make offsets, or
they wouldn't be available for sale. Do you know the parentage?
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A word of caution about running out and assigning a cultivar name to any chance hybrid erythronium that pops up in the garden: if it doesn't multiply vegetatively (by offsets) with reasonable ease, don't name it. All you will be doing is cluttering up reference materials with names of plants that are unobtainable, needlessly tantalizing your fellow gardeners.
'Ruapuna Dawn', for example, is very similar to any number of other chance and natural hybrids of E. revolutum. I won't say the woods here are full of similar-looking plants, but they're certainly no rarity if you know where to look.
Now others may disagree with me on this point of being sparing in assigning cultivar names, but one has to look at a larger picture than merely "ooooooh, lookie what I got!"
In point of fact, a more valuable contribution to the world of erythronium culture is any form, hybrid or pure species, that multiplies freely by offsets. In the last 30 years or so, I've spent a lot of time searching stands of both E. revolutum and E. oregonum looking for multiplying forms. No luck with E.o., but once with E.r. Unfortunately my high moral character¹ got the better of me and since it was in a protected ecological reserve, I left it alone. A week later, my moral character had ebbed, I went back intending to remove a few offsets around the edge of the clump - and found it gone, dug up with the excavation carefully disguised with moss. Sob.
A note on vegetative propagation of erythroniums: Richard Fraser, the proprietor of Fraser's Thimble Farms (http://www.thimblefarms.com/) on Saltspring Island (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=48.821333,-123.552246&spn=0.40146,0.881653&z=10), tells me that he has had success by simply breaking a mature erythronium bulb in pieces and replanting them. Young offsets form at the edges of the wounds. I haven't tried this myself, but Richard is a skilled propagator and knows whereof he speaketh.
¹ For some values of "high", "moral", and "character".
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The bulbs are usually rather narrow and tall, so would you break them in pieces
that way - like chopping a carrot?
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I bought 'Kinfauns pink' last year which is a cross between Erythronium revolutum and 'White beauty'.
I had never heard about 'Ruapuna Dawn' before which looks very nice but quite similar to 'Kinfaun's pink' although 'Kinfaun's pink' might have white anthers of which I'm not sure and I haven't got any pictures from its flowers of last year.
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Erythronium Kinfauns Pink is a hybrid with revolutum being the seed parent and probably White Beauty being the other parent. It is as easy to grow as White Beauty bulking up as quickly and so gives people who struggle to grow revolutum a chance to grow a pink Erythronium. Lots of hybrid Erythroniums occur in gardens where many Erythronium are grown, if you are selling them there has to be a name given, naturally you pick the best out of the bunch to propergate up. Wheather they are named clones or hybrids in you own garden they add greatly to any woodland type situation.
I have recently selected out a couple of other hybrids from a dark revolutum parent and am waiting to see if they are as quick to bulk up. Remember there is no benefit for the nursery if they can't bulk up quickly enough for sale.
Susan
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Have you managed any hybrids with hendersonii, Susan?
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Hi Susan,
of course it's necessary to give hybrids a name for sale. People don't like to buy Erythronium RxWB2156 and Kinfauns pink is a really nice plant with nice flowers, thanks for introducing it.
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Diane,
I sow a lot of Erythronium seed, some from my plants and some from wild collected seed. I don't make hybrids deliberately
The top 2 pics are definitely revolutum hybrids. The yellow one appeared amongst a bunch of E. oreganum leucandrum seedlings. and the last is from hendersonii seed, unfortunately I don't know if it was my seed or if this is natural variation. I think I remember Jens Neilson saying previously he had seen a lot of variation in the wild. It certainly bulks up well, although I find here E. hendersonii multiplies quickly anyway here.
Even although they bulk up well it still takes about 5 years to produce enough to release onto the market. Kinfauns Pink has been for sale for about 5 years retail and on and off wholesale, so Europeans should start seeing more of it about.
Susan
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Wim,
Thanks for your kind comments. Everybody loves pink Erythroniums. For the NZ'ers they can have Rapuna Dawn, the Europeans Kinfauns Pink and Diane will have to make another cross for the Canadians. You can never have enough Erythroniums in my view.
Susan
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'Ruapuna Dawn' was raised some years ago by Joan Whillans, at Ruapuna, Canterbury, New Zealand. It is tall, large-flowered, beautifully coloured with superb foliage and bulks up very quickly. My original bulb perhaps 10 or 12 years ago would be 80-odd now and I've given away and sold many as well. I absolutely agree about naming for slight differences, and for this reason I think the requirement to give a cultivar name to plants up for RHS awards, is iniquitous and, frankly, stupid as many are that plant alone and may never be propagated or distributed. (But we've been down this track before, and nothing will change because I don't like it.) However, I feel 'Ruapuna Dawn' is an outstanding hybrid in every way and well worthy of a distinctive name. I don't know and have never seen Susan's hybrid but I do agree that plants which are to be released for sale must be vigorous and able to be propagted easily and quickly and so should be given an appropriate cultivar name.
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Nice erythroniums!
Susan, I like those hybrids!
This little patch growing at Otto's was photographed last weekend:
[attachthumb=1]
cheers
fermi
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A wonderful patch skirting the tree, what are they growing under?
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Fermi,
I remember that patch from last year. Absolutely brilliant. Some very nice shades in there as well. I recall he had some beautiful white ones too, with strong markings in the centre. They were a bit further up the hill. Sigh.... I wish I was down there viewing them in person. ::)
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The hybrids I keep attempting to make are with E. tuolumnense which
is from California. It is unusual among North American west-coast
species in that it forms offsets. Most of our species produce one bulb
from one seed and do not offset at all.
I agree with Diane, that deliberate hybridization with specific goals is needed with Erythronium. Speaking for myself, important goals would be the combination of striking flower colors, good growth form (especially leaf size relative to flower size), good tolerance of garden conditions, and an ability to reproduce vegetatively from offsets. I have played around a bit with cross-pollination myself, for example, crossing pink-flowered E. revolutum with lavender E. hendersonii, and yellow E. grandiflorum with yellow E. tuolumnense. So far the resulting seedlings are only a few years old and haven't yet flowered, so I have a few more years to wait to see what I've been able to produce. But I figure that if I can do even a small number of deliberate crosses each year, over the years at least a few of the crosses may turn out to be something worth sharing.
While only a few western NA species such as E. tuolumnense commonly produce a few offsets in the wild, I have found that many species very occasionally produce individuals in wild populations that do produce offsets. Using these individuals as the parents in deliberate hybridization efforts may be a key to developing good hybrids for garden use.
Ed
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I must remember to look for clumping next time I'm looking for wild erythroniums.
Maybe I should put a sign on my camera bag to remind myself.
I automatically look for ones with good leaf markings, as that varies a lot. The
flowers don't vary much, at least in the species I've been photographing. I also
look for ones that will photograph well. Maybe that will make it easier - if there
is a clump, it will be photogenic, so I might have been noticing them without
realizing exactly what I was seeing.
The good thing is, I can collect pollen wherever I am, and take it home to put on
my own plants.
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Diane,
I sow a lot of Erythronium seed, some from my plants and some from wild collected seed. I don't make hybrids deliberately
The top 2 pics are definitely revolutum hybrids. The yellow one appeared amongst a bunch of E. oreganum leucandrum seedlings. and the last is from hendersonii seed, unfortunately I don't know if it was my seed or if this is natural variation.
Nice hybrids, Susan. Kinfauns Sunset clearly shows its hybrid origin by its white anthers, typical E. revolutum has yellow anthers. So perhaps its other parent is E. californicum. It is a bit harder to say what the other parent of the second pink hybrid might be, but with yellow anthers it may be E. oregonum. The third photo of the photo with creamy tepals has the look of a particularly dark cream fork of E. oregonum ssp. leucandrum, but it would help to see if the anther filaments are flattened and the stigma well divided to verify this determination. Terete (rounded) filaments and/or unlobed stigma would indicate a hybrid origin. Yes, the tepal color depth of E. hendersonii does vary quite a bit in the wild, from fairly rich lavender to almost white with a slight lavender tinge. I have a plant in my garden grown from wild hendersonii seed that has similar tepal coloration. However, your plant does have a bit of a look of a hybrid to it. I can't see the detail of the stigma too well in the photo but it looks like the stigma is slightly divided, which suggests the possibility of a hybrid with a white flowered species with a lobed stigma, such as E. oregonum or E. californicum.
Ed
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Susan,
Do your hybrids set viable seeds?
I'm wondering if I can plan long-range, or whether I will have to plan
to produce what I want in the first generation. I hope not, as there
are several qualities I want my hybrids to have, and that will involve
three or four species.
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Ed,
I have that feeling about the hendersonii as well, it just feels like a hybrid but I haven't seen the variation in the wild. I have some more seedlings which flowered for the first time and some of these had paler anthers, is that normal in wild populations or all my seedlings going to get mixed up? These had darker lilac petals.
Diane,
Yes the E. Kinfauns Pink does set seed but I cut off all the flowers in the beds for selling, in the garden they are allowed to do what they like. I can't remember about the others though, I usually cut off the flowers to prevent the stock getting mixed up. The reason I had these hybrids is that I was trying to build up a stock of dark revolutum originally obtain as seed from Wayne Roderick.
Have fun with your hybridising. The most promiscuous species I have found are revolutum and hendersonii possibly with oregonum. White Beauty usually seeds the same. I never have found any with signs of toulumense, but then it usually flowers earlier when the weather is bad.
Susan
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Yes, garden hybrids are to be expected, as oregonum is so widespread its range
overlaps that of hendersonii and revolutum and they hybridize in the wild.
Revolutum/oregonum hybrids are fertile. I don't know about the yellow hybrids
of tuolumnense. I guess I should look in some old seed exchange lists. If
seed of Pagoda, Citronella etc are offered, then I'll know.
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Ed,
I have that feeling about the hendersonii as well, it just feels like a hybrid but I haven't seen the variation in the wild. I have some more seedlings which flowered for the first time and some of these had paler anthers, is that normal in wild populations or all my seedlings going to get mixed up? These had darker lilac petals.
Susan, how pale were your pale-anthered E. hendersonii? When Ian and I visited Upper Table Rock last March, the Erythronium hendersonii was just starting to open its flowers, but many of the plants we saw had yellow rather and purple anthers, as shown in the attached photos. It would be interesting to visit the population in full bloom (there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of E. hendersonii plants) to get an idea of the percentage of plants with yellow vs. purple anthers. I'm not sure how widespread yellow-anthered E. hendersonii plants might be, but it is curious where the yellow anthers and pollen come from. Most all of the white-flowered species in this group of western Erythroniums have white anthers, the main exception being E. helenae, which grows much farther to the south.
Ed
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I love Erythroniums but dont grow many and would love to see larger photos especially your close ups
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Assorted comments on the discussion so far.
There are a number of geographic races of E. dens-canis that are often given specific status: Ee. japonicum, sibiricum, caucasicum, perhaps others. It is a good question whether these taxa are interfertile (including with the typical form from Europe). I will have to ask Gerry Allen if she's looked into this.
In addition, the eastern American erythronium species (Ee. albidum, americanum, umbilicatum, and others) are clearly more closely related to E. dens-canis than to the western American species. One wonders if this group can be hybridized with Eurasiatic erythroniums.
To answer Diane's question about propagation of erythronium by breaking the bulb, as you know erythronium bulbs are similar in shape to a dog's tooth (hence the specific epithet "dens-canis"). You simply break the bulb into pieces across its width, like a dog knocking the tip off a fang. I suppose that the pieces are best left unplanted for a few days in order to callus over and (hopefully) be less prone to rot. Note that I have not myself tried this method.
In my own garden, E. hendersonii grows well and sets seed in reasonable quantities, but as I grow other western American erythronium species, I pool all the seed from them and send it in as "lucky dip, may include chance hybrids." E. hendersonii is unique among the western American species in its cold violet color. Mine were grown from seed, probably from the Alpine Garden Club of BC, and the seed is likely to have been of wild origin. They vary from near white to quite a pronounced color, but none is pure white. All have purple anthers.
I suspect Diane's difficulty with growing E. hendersonii is to be attributed to her lean sandy soil, compared with my dense, clay-rich soil. I have noticed many times in the bulb literature a tendency to confuse summer dry with "sandy soil" when in fact many bulbs prefer a good stiff clay, but one that dries out in summer. Bulbs in general also need feeding: if a plant is going to develop a storage organ full of starches, it needs a lot of food during the growing season. Bulbs are not plants of lean impoverished soils. Thus many bulbs prefer a clay soil which retains nutrients well.
And finally as for hybridization: the advice I've seen for would-be plant breeders is, first, to have a clear idea of what you are trying to achieve; then, second, to work on only one character at a time. The latter advice is apropos of trying to combine a number of different characters all at once. it's worth mentioning that Luther Burbank's methods (which I've described before) involved simply interplanting as diverse a population of plants as possible from whatever genus is of interest, from as many different sources as possible, and as many species as possible, then when the F1 generation reached maturity selecting out of it only those plants that most differed from the norm (if there can be a norm in a heterogenous crowd!), and using those as parents of an F2 generation. He let the bees do his pollination. And he ruthlessly destroyed the reject seedlings.
I rather suspect that line breeding as practiced by many plant breeders is something of an illusion. Every plant breeder I've ever read about admits to destroying the vast majority of seedlings, a practice which isn't very different from Burbank's method.
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Ed, sorry I will have to wait until the spring before I can look again. I can't remember if they were yellow or a pale lilac just that they were not the usual dark colour.
Diane, I have added a picture that I use in my talks to explain how when you break an Erythronium bulb it still grows. I don't use this as a propergation method myself as I find most bulbs bulk up themselves.
Susan
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Susan,
Thanks for the photo. I will try a few. I guess winter would be the time? or very early spring? And have you tried chopping into smaller pieces? Or perhaps that was an accidental break.
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Should I even bother planting these two bulbs or do they look ok? They look all dried up.
Japoni
Lilac
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Give them a little soak overnight in some just-warm water, Guff: they may plump up a treat. I would certainly plant them after that... a soak can be a successful restorative :)
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Maggi, thanks. I was going to send them back, I will try the water soak and see what they do. I will send the pictures to the mail order company.
The below picture are the first lot I bought from a different company. These were/are plump and big bulbs compared to the above dried out ones. That is why I question these being any good.
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Should I even bother planting these two bulbs or do they look ok? They look all dried up.
Japoni
Lilac
They look pretty far gone to me. If you decide to try to grow them, soak them as Maggi suggested, first in water until they plump up, then in a solution of some systemic fungicide if you have any. Pot up in pure washed sand and keep them barely damp.
Myself, I think I'd send them back.
Not only Erythronium dens-canis and its varieties, but Leucojum vernum and Eranthis hyemalis are also often received so badly desiccated that they are dead.
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Roger, I agree they are bad.
They have been in water for a couple hours or so, and the Lilac is turning to mush. The black spot that you can see in the photo is rotten and now there is a big hole.
I'm disappointed with this last lot. First they told me what I wanted was in stock, so I send in payment. I received 3 bulbs of 5, and two are junk. One would think they would know what they are sending out are no good? I just don't get it.
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Very disappointing for you, Guff.
Sadly it is just a fact of life that not every business works to as high a set of scruples as we would hope. :-X :'(
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Maggi, It seems every year I have some problem with something that I had ordered. I'm about to give up.
I planted out the Japonicum, didn't take any pictures. I won't be surprised if nothing shows. I should hear back in a few days from the mail order company.
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If they came from a nursery/supplier in that condition I'd be sending them back straight away. And I'd have some stern words to say as well. Finding a couple of dried up bulbs on one's own potting bench is one thing (I do it often, no-one but myself to blame) but bulbs from a nusery should be in good and healthy condition.
But never give up Guff. The world is full of wonderful surprises, especially the world of a gardener. :)
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Lesley, I agree.
Well I should have my replacements maybe tomorrow. They still state what I received are good, and thats what they are suppose to look like..........NOT.
If they look the same, I am going to send them right back.
Where is the best place to get bulbs. Susan do you export your bulbs to USA?
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The best place for bulbs is a place where I can choose
my own. I pick through the bins and make sure I get double or triple-
nosed bulbs, make sure none has a bit of mould or any peculiar
looking tunics.
Much better than buying dry bulbs, though, is buying them flowering in pots.
Then I get to choose interesting flowers. I can do this both at nearby
specialty nurseries and in front of the grocery store where I have spotted
exciting variations in snowdrops, and have chosen the bluest biggest-
flowered Anemone blandas, among other bulbs.
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Diane,
If only we had those sorts of nurseries around here! :o It would be a very expensive place for me to visit!!! ;D
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If only we had those sorts of nurseries around here! :o It would be a very expensive place for me to visit!!! ;D
Diane isn't kidding about grocery stores here having good plants. I found a golden leaved form of Pinellia tripartita, 'Dragon Tails', at one here. Only the one plant and I've never seen it anywhere else, though it's from one of the big wholesale nurseries with a fancy illustrated label.
I always stop to take a look because you never know what they'll have.
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Rodger,
Does it seed true? I'm figuring probably not, but doesn't hurt to ask. ;) Despite their rather weedy nature, I rather like the Pinellias. Not heard of a golden leaf version before. I love 'Atropurpurea' (has purple in the flower..... I phtoographed it today as it happens, as the first flowers are opening here), and it seeds apparently about 80% true. Superior form to the normal species I feel, both in the fact the flower is purple, and that the flowers sit above, not below the foliage. Is the flower on your golden leaf version sit above and below, and I'm assuming they are all green?
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Guff, Unfortunately I don't export to the USA. Phyto certificates entail 1 or 2 trips to the field each year for soil tests £100-200, and then each bulb has to be washed and checked by the Agri guys. £20 each consignment. Then there are customs :( and checks at your end.
Most bulb companies that export to the USA have an agent there to deal with the orders and they just send one bulk consignment.
Sorry
Susan
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Does it seed true? ... Not heard of a golden leaf version before [of Pinellia tripartita]. ... Is the flower on your golden leaf version sit above and below, and I'm assuming they are all green?
Our climate here seems to be too cool for pinellias to ripen seed. There were some indications of seed forming, but it came to nothing as far as I could see. The flowers are in amongst the leaves and can be seen without snuffling through the foliage. The flowers are just as yellow as the leaves.
I treat it as one of those eastern Asiatic plants that are hardy, but which cannot handle my soaking wet winter garden. It's in a big pot, and goes under cover during the winter to keep the rain off. So far, so good.
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Diane,
If only we had those sorts of nurseries around here! :o It would be a very expensive place for me to visit!!! ;D
We do have little places like that - just a very few left though - and one picks up nice things occasionally. A lot of dairies or bread shops have a couple of trays outside the door, supplied and replenished weekly by a nearby gardener.
As to choosing from the bulb bins, I always seem to manage to get the very last dregs, everyone else having picked them over first. But back in April I bought the last 10 bulbs of Tulipa 'Queen of the Night' from a garden centre bin, and though they were small and a bit shrivelled, and yes Diane, had a little mould on them, they have grown well and are in bloom now. I didn't expect to get any flowers at all. Might do a pic when the rain stops. The forecast is saying snow to 300 metres in Otago. That includes me. :o
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Our climate here seems to be too cool for pinellias to ripen seed. There were some indications of seed forming, but it came to nothing as far as I could see. The flowers are in amongst the leaves and can be seen without snuffling through the foliage. The flowers are just as yellow as the leaves.
I treat it as one of those eastern Asiatic plants that are hardy, but which cannot handle my soaking wet winter garden. It's in a big pot, and goes under cover during the winter to keep the rain off. So far, so good.
Rodger,
I'm surprised that anything stops them producing seed. ;D If you don't have the 'Atropurpurea' let me know and I'll let some seed set on mine for you. 8)