Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Flowers and Foliage Now => Topic started by: Robin Callens on March 22, 2009, 07:42:11 PM
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Trilliums in the cold frame are about 10 days ahead on those in the garden.
Many of our seedlings of the western sessiles are flowering for the first time.
Here are some pics of hybrids (?) between Trillium cholorpetalum, T. kurabayashii and T. albidum:
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Wow, Robin, very exciting to see these!
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Robin,
Beautiful. You have some VERY nice plants that you grow. 8)
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Very beautiful plants Robin, thanks for posting them :)
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Very nice plants, Robin - much nicer than most of our eastern sessiles. I've raised hybrids from our eastern sessiles (I live in Maryland, USA) and so I know how long it takes for them to bloom from seed.
A noticed your age on your profile: either you were a very precocious gardener with a very productive start with trilliums, or there is more to the story. :)
When I see how beautiful some hybrid trilliums are, and I take into consideration how long it takes to make progress with them, it's enough to make me wish I were a younger man.
But the future is yours, and good luck with it: you are off to a great start.
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Very nice indeed, Robin.
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Beautiful range of colours Robin, many thanks for showing us these.
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Lovely Robin what an interesting colour range. Are these deliberate crosses ?
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A noticed your age on your profile: either you were a very precocious gardener with a very productive start with trilliums, or there is more to the story. :)
When I see how beautiful some hybrid trilliums are, and I take into consideration how long it takes to make progress with them, it's enough to make me wish I were a younger man.
I feel the same Robin!
What an impressive collection you have already!
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Very nice plants, Robin - much nicer than most of our eastern sessiles. I've raised hybrids from our eastern sessiles (I live in Maryland, USA) and so I know how long it takes for them to bloom from seed.
A noticed your age on your profile: either you were a very precocious gardener with a very productive start with trilliums, or there is more to the story. :)
I particularly like the south eastern trilliums (T. maculatum, discolor, decumbens, underwoodii, reliquum, lancifolium, ludovicianum, foetidissimum, ...). The Trilliums on the photos are from seed sown in 2003 and 2004 partly seed of my own plants and partly seed from New-Zealand. I have an older brother (Clint) and a father (José) who are deep into plants so i practically grew up together with Trillium, Arisaema, Paris, etc. seedlings.
Robin.
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Lovely Robin what an interesting colour range. Are these deliberate crosses ?
None of them are deliberate crosses.
Robin
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i practically grew up together with Trillium, Arisaema, Paris, etc. seedlings.
Robin
I see you keep the best company. Keep it up!
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Some more pics of western sessile Trillium hybrids:
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That dark leaf is very special, and i love the yellowy green as well. Beautiful!! Here, the Trilliums are just little points sitting above the ground waiting months until they start into growth. Then again, nothing I have is going to look much like any of the ones you have posted here. ;D Delightful pics, Thanks. 8)
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Trillium rivale,
A few pics showing the variation in flower shape and colour.
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Next lot
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Lovely stuff Michael. I particularly like the speckled & veined ones.
Are they all in (big?) pots, and in the open or under cover?
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Lovely pics folks. Trillium is a genus I haven't dabbled with yet I should perhaps give it a try.
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Lovely stuff Michael. I particularly like the speckled & veined ones.
Are they all in (big?) pots, and in the open or under cover?
Ashley, I have them in pots and in the open ground and have several thousand tubers. They are one one of my favourite plants.
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Lovely pics folks. Trillium is a genus I haven't dabbled with yet I should perhaps give it a try.
David I can send you some tubers when they go dormant if you like.
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Michael,
I grow many Trillium species, I have difficulties with T. undulatum, T. petiolatum and ... T. rivale. What's your secret?
Robin
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Michael,
I grow many Trillium species, I have difficulties with T. undulatum, T. petiolatum and ... T. rivale. What's your secret?
Robin
Robin,neglect is what they get here, those planted in the garden get no attention at all, while most of the potted plants are in the same pots that the seed was sown in. When they get too big for the pot they are potted on without disturbing the tubers. I think they like company but no disturbance. When I remember they get fed with liquid tomato feed and when they go dormant the pots are placed under a bench outside until I see growth the following spring. They like a little lime in the compost which is J.I.no 2 with a handful of grit and peat added.
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Michael,
Glorious!! 1, 2, 4, 5 and particularly 8 and 9 stand out for me. T. rivale is such a good do-er here too, but predominantly whites with minor spotting as yet (although still waiting to see what emerges from seed from you a couple of years ago... when they get to flowering size). Do you have the veined leaf types in flower as well?
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Wonderful assortment of T rivale Michael :o
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Lovely pics folks. Trillium is a genus I haven't dabbled with yet I should perhaps give it a try.
How's your bank balance David? ;D
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Trillium rivale, A few pics showing the variation in flower shape and colour.
All are within the normal range of variation of T. rivale. The last is close to 'Purple Heart'.
I grow many Trillium species, I have difficulties with T. undulatum, T. petiolatum and ... T. rivale. What's your secret? ... Waregem, Belgium
T. undulatum is a plant impossible to grow in gardens. Though native over a large part of eastern North America, it demands rather uncommon conditions usually described as "very acid bog" or something along those lines. Plants in commerce of this trillium are invariably wild-collected, and gardeners sympathetic to plant conservation issues will refrain from buying them no matter how strong their desire for this beautiful trillium.
It's the old story "many have tried, none have succeeded."
T. rivale, on the other hand, is quite an easy plant under the right conditions. In the Siskiyou Mountains of southern Oregon and northern Califonia, it grows by the miilions. It is not a rare plant, neither in nature nor in gardens. Along the Illinois River, which winds around the southern and western base of Eight Dollar Mountain (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.255967,-123.660564&spn=0.056793,0.118618&t=p&z=13), it is a common plant.
Given that Robin Callens is in Belgium, I wonder if the issue is an overly wet summer climate. Here in Victoria, BC, where the summers are invariably bone dry for months on end (as they are in the Siskiyous), T. rivale is an easy plant in the open garden. As this little trillium also takes well to pot culture, perhaps Robin Callens would have more success growing it in pots protected from summer rain. It's not a Central Asian tulip, however; it merely wants "dry", not "dry and hot", in summer.
The rhizomes of T. rivale burrow into the earth by growing at a steep angle so each year's growth of the rhizome takes it a little ways further down. It's best grown in deep pots, but beware planting young seedlings too deep.
A number of forms of T. rivale have been given cultivar names over the years: 'Purple Heart', 'Del Norte' (which is masquerading as T. ovatum × rivale these days), and 'Vern Ahier', distinguished by the circular form of the flowers with tepals overlapping to form a nearly hemispherical bowl, the interior of the flower being white with red speckling.
The 'Del Norte' form, a supposed hybrid, show no sign of hybridity with T. ovatum, neither in leaf shape, post-pollination color change, nor flower shape. It is, however, considerably larger than the usual T. rivale, about twice the stature, and grows with great vigor, setting enormous amounts of viable seed. It self-seeds in my own garden and is close to being weedy. I speculate that it is a polyploid, pure T. rivale, rather than a hybrid.
For those interested in growing pots of T. rivale for show purposes, be aware that individual specimens vary widely in their performance in pots. Some grow in pots like gangbusters, others sulk, don't flower as well, and suffer rot under conditions where the best forms don't turn a hair.
Selected forms of T. rivale are easily propagated by division. If the rhizome is planted shallowly, it readily forms small secondary shoots. In the spring right after flowering, you can lift the parent rhizome, pick off all the offsets that have a leaf, replant the parent and the offsets immediately, in confidence that they will re-establish. A strong, healthy parent rhizome can be denuded of offsets every two or three years. I am working on establishing a drift of the 'Vern Ahier' form using this technique as part of my program of wretched excess in the garden. ;D
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Here a little plant flowering in the garden. The plant seems of a deeper colour in the flesh.Perhaps even having a strawberry base colouring
Trillium rivale Winifred Murray
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Lovely colour Ian.
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Gorgeous Trilliums Michael, I particularly like the pink veined ones.
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....... part of my program of wretched excess in the garden. ;D
Roger,
Ah, nice to see it isn't just me that has this program established, although mine isn't excess by way of drifts of things but rather by way of putting twice as many plants in the area as is physically possible to fit!! ;D
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Here a little plant flowering in the garden. The plant seems of a deeper colour in the flesh.Perhaps even having a strawberry base colouring
Trillium rivale Winifred Murray
This is very nice Ian. I like the way the red colour flushes down into the leaves. I saw some like this in Australia in the southern spring.
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Warm enough ,(18c ),for me to be in shorts and tee shirt this afternoon as i built these 3 small raised beds for a number of Trilliums sps seedlings to be planted in the spring.
One of the advantages of being a landscaper ,(and hoarder :-[),is that i often bring home unwanted materials --i've had these 200 odd used concrete pavers stacked away for about 12 mnths.
Couldn't be bothered leveling the ground or cementing the rows as i prefer the rustic unpolished look.
Cheers dave
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oops --
The second pic shows the beds being filled with leafmold/litter.
First pic shows the final effort --with,(radiata),pine needle/duff covering .
Cheers dave.
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I like that a lot Dave, if only I had the space.................. ;D
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Hi all,
5 flowering 'dwarf' Trillium species at this moment
1) T. nivale
2) T. pusillum
3) T. rivale
4) T. sessile
5) T. hibbersonii
Robin
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....... part of my program of wretched excess in the garden. ;D
Ah, nice to see it isn't just me that has this program established, although mine isn't excess by way of drifts of things but rather by way of putting twice as many plants in the area as is physically possible to fit!! ;D
Well, since we're airing dirty linen, a confession. When I moved to my present house 20⁺ years ago, I decided that I wanted a specific response from garden visitors. Not only "Where did you get that?!", but also "And where did you get so much of it !?"
This happens on occasion. Sometimes the best laid plans gang not agley, Burns notwithstanding!
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This is Trillium kurabayashii flowering in my garden at this moment.
John Aipassa
Edit by Maggi: John, your photo was huge so I have edited it for you !
I am sorry, thank you!
John
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Trillium kurabayashii, grown from seed & flowering now in the garden.
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Trillium rivale, a pot of seedlings flowering for the second time.
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This is the time when I get Trillium fever!
Mike, lovely clumps you have.... great to see the variation in the seed grown ones, as well as them being so healthy.
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What a very interesting page with so many of my favourite plants, I post some Trillium pictures taken today and invite please anyone to put a name to the Red leaved form, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
Trillium albidum cherry flush
Trillium chloropetalum best leaf 2
Trillium Chloropetalum best leaf
trillium hybrid Kurabayashii yellow
Trillium Red leaf 2
Trillium red leaf
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Wow Ian,
The red leaf form is very pretty! Don't have a clue though which Trillium species this is. Maybe when it is flowering it will reveal itself.
Here is another photo of one of my kurabayashii.
Cheers
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I post some Trillium pictures taken today and invite please anyone to put a name to the Red leaved form, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
Ian,
I think the red leaved Trillium is a T. cuneatum. We can be sure when the flower opens.
Robin
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Cherry flush is gorgeous..
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I second that Anne. Ian has some very nice forms and keeps surprising us. 8)
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The flowers are superb but almost a case of Who needs them? when the leaves are so outstandingly good.
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It is sometimes difficult to distinguish Trillium ovatum from T grandiflorum. If grown together T ovatum is already fading when T grandiflorum is fully open. Also, T. ovatum opens its flower before the leaves are fully unfolded.
1) Trillium ovatum
2) Trillium grandiflorum
3) Trillium grandiflorum roseum
4) Trillium cuneatum
Robin
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Robin,
Great pics! Love that roseum!!
Ian,
That cherry blushed one is striking, but that red leaved one. :o :o :o :o I am almost speechless (almost! ;)). Breathtaking!!
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A few Trillium species in flower in the garden now.
Trillium chlorapetalum
T. chlorapetalum
T. albidum
T. cuneatum
T. sessile
I think the last two are correctly named, please let me know if not.
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Two other Trilliums flowering in my garden now:
Trillium chloropetalum giganteum RBGE form
Trillium flexipes
Cheers,
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Fab trilliums all, the first flowers are opening here after all the trilliums were divided and moved to their final locations in autumn after two years in a congested holding bed.
T.kurabayashii
T.cernuum
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Lovely cernuum you have Hristo.
I only have cotyledons of cernuum at the moment and hope to have flowering ones within a couple of years.
Two more Trilliums of mine:
Trillium cuneatum
Trillium albidum
Best,
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I post some Trillium pictures taken today and invite please anyone to put a name to the Red leaved form, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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I'd love to know for how many years this red leaved trillium does this wonderful colouration. It looks very striking!
When I was in North Carolina in 2007 I've seen darker purple-red leaved trilliums growing there and a botanist told me that the colouration comes when a bulb is partly eaten by a mouse or other animals. And last year I selected two very dark purple leaved Helleborus foetidus in the Provence; just for to find out, that they went completely green being here this year :(. But the colour of the plants I am talking was much darker and not as bright and nice as the leaves of the trillium on the photo! I just wonder wheather you observed similar things.
Curious greetings from Iris
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Hi, all, sorry for long delay and it looks like I have missed some super pictures so thanks for those. At last the red leaved trillium has opened its flowers and yes the leaves do go a shade of green with age but the red tinge lasts for several weeks and as you can see in the picture posted the clump looks great with all the differend shades. I am not sure if it is Tr, cuneatum and I note that all the pictures posted as Tr cuneatum have pointed petals, I know this species is variable and in the books it shows som with rounded petals any way here are the pictures, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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great pictures everyone love that red foliage Ian
Melvyn you must have had your chlorapetalum as long as me
Here is a couple of mine at present
T chloropetalum
T rivale from AGS seed years ago
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Ian,
Whatever it is, it's spectacular!! 8)
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Hi there,
it is so interesting to see how beautiful some of these selected garden forms are. I was wondering whether anybody thought that this form of T. albidum is out of the ordinary.
I have three mature plants but this one has by far the widest petals and makes quite an impact, even from a distance. It also has a nice scent.
I think the plant originally came from one of our nurseries north of the border - maybe Christies?
It was probably about five years ago. It has spent the last couple of years in a pot as I was moving house. The nice thing is that I have about thirty husky three year old selfed seedlings from the plant.
They exhibit a range of leaf mottling from almost none to a couple with more than the parent,
Regards,
David
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Beautifully broad petals. They much much more of a statement than what I have as albidum, by a long way. Good clean white too by the look of it, whereas mine is definitely not pure. I'd certainly be keeping it if I were you. It will be interesting to see how much of that petal broadness etc is passed on to the offspring. Very nice. :)
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Does anybody know the names of these Trilliums?
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Hi there,
First time of flowering, bought as seedling of T.erectum many years ago, looks like T.parviflorum or T.albidum. Either one works for me as I haven't got them! :D :D
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Hans,
Try this site,you need a recent version of Java to run it and a ruler helps too!
http://utc.usu.edu/keys/trillium/Trillium.html
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Hi there,
First time of flowering, bought as seedling of T.erectum many years ago, looks like T.parviflorum or T.albidum. Either one works for me as I haven't got them! :D :D
Hristo, you might never be able to figure it out - in the Willamette Valley in Oregon, where the ranges of T. albidum and T. parviflorum meet, the sessile flowered trilliums are more or less intermediate between the two species, and seem to be neither one nor the other. I call them T. albidum because they are not parviflorum, but this is less than satisfactory because they aren't quite true albidum like you find farther south. So if your plant originated from this area, there is no satisfactory name!
Here are some photos of wild plants in a local forest in Eugene, where both T. ovatum and T. "albidum" grow, some times from the same clump!
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Hi all, what i have as Trillium parviflorum maybe looks the same as Tr albidum but the seed pos are totally different Trillium albidum has either green or bronze green seed pods and Tr parviflorum has black seed pods. I post some more pictures from the garden, fist is a good red Trillium hybrid probably Tr flexipes and Trillium simile then tr. simile Purple Haze.
Trillium simile Purple Haze raised by Mike and Polly Stone at Askival, Fort William
[attachimg=4]
cheers ian the Christie kind.
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Ed, Ian, thanks for the advice, always fun to have a plant that science can't quite pin down!
Ian I hope this is not being rude or nosy but are your latest Erythroniums and Trilliums seed raised at Kirriemuir or bought in as adults? Either way the forms you are showing are stunners! Do you post to Bulgaria? :D :D
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Does anybody know the names of these Trilliums?
Johannes,
The first one looks like Trillium stamineum with slightly abnormal petals and the second one could be T. cuneatum or something else.
Robin
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I agree with Ian regarding the berry colour of albidum and parviflorum.
I also have a broad petalled albidum too.
And I post a photo of an erectum with a tiny spider living in it, waiting for some small bug to enter for lunch. You can't actually see the spider. It is tucked away deep in the flower, but you can see some web of the little one on the photo.
Cheers,
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Hi Hristo, some of the Erythroniums are in a friends garden the rest are here in mine, as for the trilliums again some were plants from friends but most are seed raised here and i have had them for 20 years or so. I am afraid that i only have a few and none for sale however we have hundreds more seedlings growing well so you never know, cheers ian the Christie kind.
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I remind everyone that Fred & Roberta Case's book, "Trilliums" (Timber Press 1997) keys out virtually all of the North American species. While it is not a true botanical monograph, the Cases have grown most of the species and also seen them growing wild, so the book is authoritative from a horticultural point of view. Second-hand copies start at about $40US and are quite plentiful. Bookfinder.com lists about 35 copies as I write.
My impression is that genus Trillium contains a large number of very similar species, many of which freely interbreed. The result is that hybrids are to be expected in gardens where more than one species is grown. In my own garden, I have a large group of trilliums grown from seed to which I refuse to put a name for this reason.
Not all trilliums are worth growing! Last year I purchased as Trillium undulatum what turned out to be T. recurvatum. For once, I saw an ugly trillium!
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Melvyn, your last two look like cuneatum, see T. sessile below.
Hans, the first unknown is likely as Robin said, T. stamineum, the second looks like ludovicianum or the new as yet unnamed Ruby Falls Trillium from Tennessee (to be called T. freemanii?). May I ask the source, privately if need be? The petals are too narrow for typical cuneatum.
Ian, what does the T. simile smell like? Wet dogs or egg whites? It was not until the early 1990's when the Trillium erectum album began to be called T. simile in and around the Smoky Mountains and this is most of which is in cultivation. Having recently (three weeks ago) seen what is likely the true T. simile for the second time in the wild and smelled it I can say that J.K. Small was correct in saying it was fragrant.
As far as I have seen in the wild, and that is many many populations from Kansas south and eastward to the coasts, I can say I have only come across one group that seems to hybridize with abandon, or it may be that the definitions of the species are too finely drawn. Trillium rugelii and T. vaseyi in a few areas in GA, NC, and SC really make some beautiful plants, all intermediate between the two. In many cases T. vaseyi grows in pure stands, but I have only seen one truly pure stand of T. rugelii. As far as the sessile species go, I have only seen hybrids where T. cuneatum and T. luteum intersect just north of me. Other than that I have not seen any other hybrids in the wild between any two species and I have seen populations where T. stamineum and T. lancifolium grow together, T. stamineum, T. decumbens, and T. cuneatum, T. reliquum and T. aff. cuneatum, T. decipiens and T. reliquum, etc... I have come across things that do not key though on occasion; a pedicillate species similar to vaseyi, but not, growing in pure populations of creamy flowered plants, and the aff. cuneatum above that looks kind of like T. foetidissimum, but growing near Atlanta, GA. Sadly the only western species I have seen is T. ovatum. The only eastern species I have not seen is T. cernuum.
Below are T. sessile, T. simile, T. underwoodii, T. cuneatum double, and t. cuneatum yellow.
Aaron Floden
Knoxville, TN
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Nice Trilliums Aaron, especially the T underwoodii but what is that growing with them, looks Podophyllum like?
cheers
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Dear Aaron, thanks for all your information, I would like to add more information about Trillium simile, firstly the flowers are very big with superb quality felted petals and as the picture shows are distinctive shape plus the pollen is purple quite visable, the Trillium simile Purple haze I agree could have some hybrid in it but again neither are like the picture you show as Trillium simile. I will get some more pictures and smell the flowers later today, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Stephen,
That is a Podophyllum, one of my stable variegated clones of P. peltatum. It is a nice weed!
Ian,
With the purple pollen I would say it is of T. rugelii descent. I'll get some pictures taken of all the hybrids later today to compare them too. The wash of purple over the white petals is common in many of the hybrids. I have some rugelii hybrids where the flower is above the leaves, but with the lighter purple ovary and purple stamens, vs the near black ovary and yellow stamens of T. simile. Some forms of rugelii are fragrant also, like Magnolia or tea roses.
Aaron Floden
Knoxville, TN
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Hi all
I must say it is an amazing world , the world of Trilliums!
Stunning pictures all! I am learning a lot here.
Keep posting the pictures and the info
Gert Jan
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Aaron,
Love the underwoodii... but oh that green cuneatum! :o It glows!!!!! Never seen the like. 8)
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A batch of Trillium kurabayashii seedlings flowering this year for the first time have produced a very mixed palette of colour forms. All seed from the very dark form in the first picture.
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Nice batch of seedlings!
How long does it take until first flowers?
Gerd
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Hi Gerd
Flowering in about 5-6 years.
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Mike,
Well if you've ever got seed of that dark form to spare.....? ;D
Nice range of colours. I love all of them. Good leaf colouration too, which is of course what you see far more of than the flowers. Great to see both the parents and the offspring... Thanks for sharing. 8)
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A lovely batch Mike, especially - for me - the pink in picture 3. 5-6 years from seed is very good. :)
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Lesley,
Oh I loved the pink as well..... I liked them all. Just seeing the variety of colour that could come from seed from the dark form is wonderful!
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Three photos of trilliums flowering here.
DSC01079_resize.JPG: a sweep of Trillium albidum. This clone is very sweetly scented and muliplies well vegetatively. I have never seen it set seed.
DSC01081_resize.JPG: Trillium rivale 'Del Norte'. This originally came to me as seed under the name "Trillium ovatum × rivale" but it's no such thing. It may be a polyploid, given its larger size and greater vigor than "ordinary" Trillium rivale (as though any trillium were "ordinary"!)
DSC01082_resize.JPG: Part of a patch of trilliums raised from seed, including enough variation that I am unwilling to put a name to them. Sets seed, which germinates modestly in the moist, shady site.
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Rodger,
I like that pale pink in the left of the seedlings shot. Very delicate colour. The "sweep" is glorious!!! :o
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Here are some forms of Trillium grandiflorum and T. pusillum. The first T. g. forma roseum refuses to increase.
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I like that pale pink in the left of the seedlings shot. Very delicate colour. The "sweep" is glorious!!! :o
You know how cameras lie? Well, it lied in this case. That coloration is due to the same pigment that colors the various deep maroon trillium species, and is not a good, clear pink (alas!)
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Rodger,
Bummer! ::) That sort of colour would be wonderful. I have a pale lavender sessile type that is rather lovely. It is one of a bunch of seedlings from a suspected albidum parent (we "think" that is what the white plant is, anyway). I was given a bunch of seedlings a few years ago, expecting them to be all like the parent (which was white with a purple throat) until they started flowering and I've had white, purple, lavender so far.... and only a few of the seedlings have flowered so far. Very, very pleased with the results as the non-whites have been colours I didn't already possess!! ;D Always cool to happily find something new you didn't know you had. ;)
Thanks so much for the pics, both of you. Just the dormant noses sitting jsut above ground here at the moment Trillium-wise. So cool to see them in flower up there in the northern hemisphere at the moment. I hope to one day successfully grow grandiflorum, but as yet I haven't managed to get one to live here more than a couple of years, although I have sown seed the last couple of years again (from you Anthony, as I recall ;D) so we shall see what happens. 8)
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The first T. g. forma roseum refuses to increase.
There are several methods for encouraging a reluctant trillium to be fruitful and multiply. One involves grass skirts, nose bones, necklaces of human teeth, oddly shaped drums, and assorted other paraphernalia difficult to acquire, as well as the consumption of intoxicating herbs and fungi, so I'll skip over it.
Another involves deliberately wounding the rhizome. As the wound heals, with a little luck new growing points will develop from the scar tissue. Lift the rhizome about now, then using a new razor blade make an incision the length of the rhizome cutting from the skin inwards no more than 25% of the thickness. Do this on both sides. Immediately replant and be patient. Throw the razor blade away lest you use it on other plants and unwittingly transmit viral infections.
If the operation is a success, in a year or three you will see extra growing points emerge in the spring. Give these one year to size up a little, then again lift the parent rhizome, pluck off any new growing points that have any feeder roots, and replant everything immediately. My impression is that once a trillium root has been disturbed by wounding, it will continue to proliferate new growing points indefinitely.
If all this talk of wounding a precious plant seems too risky a prospect, restrict your surgery to one side of the rhizome and only toward the end away from the growing point.
If you are careful, you can simply unearth the rhizome and perform the surgery without actually lifting it, as trilliums root from the underside of their rhizomes.
Another method, even more frightening, is to lift the rhizome and slice it up. Treat all cut surfaces with sulfur to forestall fungi, and replant in clean soil after allowing the wounds to callus over for a few days. I haven't tried this method myself.
Don't forget seed! If your two pink T.g. plants are different clones (or even if they are the same, maybe), a little deft work with a small paintbrush may work wonders. Trilliums are generally slow to flower from seed, but not impossibly so. I recommend leaving trillium seedlings in pots until they have formed a true three-fold leaf in a few years, then planting them out. They are really happier in the ground than in pots, but the young seedlings are so frail that they demand protection from the rough and tumble of the open garden while in infancy.
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I've tried the slicing and dicing method on Paris polyphylla with surprising success. If interested, see the topic 'Butchering Paris Polyphylla" (or something close to that in name), where I show photos of the results.
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Noticed this Trillium this morning. Not like my normal red's, this is two toned with green on the backsides of the flower. The pistols are different also.
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I may try the wounding, but as it is the only one I have I'm reluctant? I'm hoping that I can split 'Jenny Rhodes' this year? It has 11 flowers just opening, and there seem to be some small shoots moving away from the centre?
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Hi again all, some super pictures and at last i post some more taken tonight in the garden, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
Tr erectum hyb 3_resize.JPG
Tr erectum hyb possiblly_resize.JPG
Tr erectum hyb x 3_resize.JPG
Tr erectum hyb._resize.JPG
Tr hybrid dont know_resize.JPG
TR simile 1_resize.JPG
Tr sulcatum Eco white 2_resize.JPG
Trillium erectum hyb 5_resize.JPG
Trillium simile 4_resize.JPG
Trillium sulcatum Eco white_resize.JPG
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A couple of pix just in from Jim Kee .... who says " I thought I would send a picture of some Trillium in the garden. I think the first picture should be T. maculatum simulans with T. decumbens. The other picture is a cool little form of T. lancifolium :this is bi-colored right from the time they open up. I hope you enjoy the pictures"
We will, Jim!
click the pix to enlarge......
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Maggi,
Wow. Love that silver leaf form on the right in the first pic. Wish I was growing that here. ;D Wouldn't mind seed of that Hepatica too.... very nice leaves. Altogether a very nice little garden with some special treats in there. Nice combination!! 8)
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I love your hybrids of T. erectum Ian. They're so CLASSY!
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Hi all,
Love the photos posted so far. Here are a couple of mine again:
- Trillium sulcatum
- Trillium sulcatum Black Magic, a big, bold and black variety compared to my other sulcatums, although last year it was more black than this
year (Yes Ian, this is a plant of your stock!).
- Trillium labeled flexipes when I bought it, but it is a hybrid I think now after having a discussion last year on Trillium-L, when I posted a
photo of it on that list naming it flexipes.
I must admit I am starting to become a little confused after seeing the photos of Ian's sulcatum Eco White, since it looks like some of my other flexipes. What are the keys to distinguish these white sulcatums with flexipes?
Cheers,
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Here are a couple of flowers on one of my T. erectum hybrids. There are 2 of each colour and I have been watching them for the last 10 days to see if they fade to be like each other, but the are staying different. They are from the same root as far as I can make out. I know that some years I think the flowers are not as good/better than the last years but this is the first time I have noticed this difference on the same plant :-\
Susan
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John,
Love that 'Black Magic'. 8)
Susan,
Interesting to see the difference. To me it looks like they are both from the same growth point, not just the same rhizome, so even stranger.
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Thanks Paul,
You'll need sunglasses with even darker glasses ;D because I will post this photo of the same plant last year:
Best,
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I cut my T grandiflorum 'Snow Bunting' rhizome in two when I moved it some three years ago. The main plant with the growing point was weakend but not much. The rest of the rhizome sent out several new shoots detachable as offsets. Some of these were very weak.
Situation today: Three stems on the main plant. One flowering stem from the largest offset and a few small non-flowring offsets. (No pictures only buds today.)
Göte
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Fab looknig plants all, my offering is a little common by comparison, a plant purchased as T.erectum.
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Nice Chris,
I ordered seed from Kristl, as I hoped this one would be a good beginners plant for me. I've never managed to maintain a Trillium long enough to get flowers. Of course, I refuse to give up! Any hints to pass on? ;D
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Nice Chris,
I ordered seed from Kristl, as I hoped this one would be a good beginners plant for me. I've never managed to maintain a Trillium long enough to get flowers. Of course, I refuse to give up! Any hints to pass on? ;D
Most should grow in normal woodland conditions. What happened.???
There is a problem with them. they A: refuse to show above ground unless they have had a cold period. This should be OK in Cologne.
B: refuse to show above ground unless they have sufficient amounts of undisturbed roots. They start building roots at midsummer.
The result of this is that a bare rhizome planted in the fall will not show up until spring #2 - sometimes even #3. Move and plant at the time the flowers start to fade - not later.
Seed should be sown immediately and kept outside. They might then germinate next spring - if not next spring. First year there is only a cotyledon.
Göte
PS
Please mail me privately I may have some surplus later in the year.
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plant purchased as T.erectum.
Someone said it should be renamed "Stoopeum" ;D ;D ;D ;D
Göte
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Nice Chris,
I ordered seed from Kristl, as I hoped this one would be a good beginners plant for me. I've never managed to maintain a Trillium long enough to get flowers. Of course, I refuse to give up! Any hints to pass on? ;D
Erectum is not the only 'beginner's' Trillium. Several others are not difficult to grow or to propagate. From my own experience, sulcatum, vaseyi and Western sessiles like kurabayashii and albidum are actually fairly easy to maintain and to propagate too, if you give them woodland conditions. Purchasing mature flowering rhizomes will give you a head start, but if you insist in raising Trillium from seeds you'll need patience. It will normally take five to six years to get the first flowers after germination.
In general propagating Trilliums from seed is not very difficult at all. It is fairly easy if you have patience. Sow seeds fresh in a pot and leave the pot outside in a shady spot and let the weather throw everything it has got in mind at the pot. Do not let the compost dry out, it will give a set back or even worse it will kill the seeds. Generally in the second spring after sowing you will have cotyledons popping up. If you are lucky to have seeds sown straight from the berry as fresh as it can be in late summer, you will have the chance to get cotyledons even the first spring after sowing them. The best chance I have for this is with kurabayashii, but this year two pots with seeds from erectum sown very fresh late last summer decided to germinate in abundance the first spring after sowing. I do not know what exactly has triggered them, to many variables involved.
Do not let dried seeds scare you off. Soak them thoroughly (24 to 48 hours at least) and sow them. I have experienced germination of Trillium kurabayashii from dried seeds from the second spring on.
Since you will have seeds from Kristl (Walek that is?), you will get fresh seeds this summer that is carefully packed moist in vermiculite, but expect to have germination the second spring. I have ordered Trillium erectum seeds the last couple of years from her, but never experienced gemination the first spring after sowing, always the second one.
Good luck!
Best,
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Hi Gote, Jamie,
'Stoopeum', makes it sound like a character out of a Charles Dickens novel! The 'ever so humble' Trillium! :D :D
I have never had problems with moving trilliums or establishing purchases, I moved and divided all my mature Trilliums in autumn 2008, I did however ensure that the roots did not dry out! I also purchased 30 new plants which arrived a little lacking in the root department, the majority are up, some will flower. I suspect however they had not been dry stored. I have only experienced the problems you mention Gote with rhizomes that hve been 'dry stored' for long periods, essentially rhizomes out of garden centres and certain other suppliers.
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Thanks, all, for the info. I get the feeling I simply had some bad luck with dormant stock. I have had the last 8 years to build-up a woodland type ground for such plants, using compost, twigs, leaves, etc. and feel my chances have improved considerably. Previously, before I had the house, the garden was stripped of all organic waste every Fall, in the typical German cleanliness craziness, and the ground was close to baren. I go out onto the streets every Autumn and gather the leaves from beeches, lindens, maples, etc. to build the soil back up again. Took time, but it did work. Lilium are finally feeling right a home, as well as Arisaema, Hepatica, Polygonum, etc. Time for the Trillium. and Podophyllum (love the leaves!)
I want to start seed in any case, as I feel this is always the best way to maintain a species in the garden. Single clones are fine for decorative effects, but the diversity is important to me. Any I love growing things from seed. Five years is do-able for me, as I also grow Paeonies, Brunsvigia, etc. Not overnight successes.
Göte, thanks for the possible offer. I'll get in touch.
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John, Hhristo,
I agree with all what you said. One can be lucky and have them up year one. My experience from dividing and moving in the garden is that If I do it late in the year a certain percentage will die whereas the same operation performed at the time the flowers start to fade is a near 100% success. Damage to the green parts is not harmful at that time. This means sacrifying the seeds but that is, in my experience, the lesser evil.
Yes that one that came up year #3 had traveled far and was fairly damaged.
The important thing is to understand that the rhizome may be OK if left undisturbed even if it does not show above ground
I have an ovatum that has been in the same spot for some ten years. It flowers occasionally and some years it remains under ground.
Göte
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Jamie,
Enriching your soil is always a good idea. Since I do not have natural woodland soil I also am in a process (which will never end) of enriching the soil and turning it into more suitable woodland garden soil. I never throw any organic 'waste' (waste is not the proper word for it, since it is very beneficial for the soil) from the garden away, unless it is infected with some plant disease. Fallen leaves, twigs and shredded treebranches from cuttings are left in my borders; even my grass clippings. Within one growing season, worms and bacteria have turned this mulch into rich compost. If one does not like the sight of this type of mulch in the border, one should compost it in a compost bin or on a compost heap and use the composted leaves, clippings etc. for mulching later on. Never throw it away. Cool leafy soil in semi shade is what my Trilliums like. The ones planted in not so favourable soil in my garden (less cool, dryer and sunnier) are smaller and less flowering than the ones planted in more favourable spots. In time they will do better if I have managed to change the micro climate to more favourable conditions.
Goete,
Your explanation about the right timing of moving Trillium rhizomes is spot on. At first I always thought moving and planting bare rhizomes is done best in late fall/early winter. From my own experience I must admit that this is not true. Every bare rhizome planted late fall or early winter came up the second spring after planting. The ones planted late summer or at the latest early fall (september) resulted in popping up the first spring after planting and some flowered.
All,
A Trillium rhizome, if healthy, is not a weak organism. These stories of Trillium dying when picking the flowers are false. What you will get is a rhizome, if undisturbed, which will need time to get settled again, but will flower one or two years later. Last year I wanted to move three kurabayashii rhizomes to another spot in my garden. I did it late July but I had to be more careful when doing it. When digging them out I accidentally decapitated the growing point of one big rhizome :'( knowing that would cost me one flowering season the next spring for this particular one. Well all three rhizomes came up this spring. The two undamaged ones flowered beautifully, although with a little bit smaller flowers than last year. The decapitated one came up with 5 smaller but healthy stems (not flowering though, but I was glad to see clumping is fastened by the decapitation :) ). So if you stick to the advice Goete gave, the rhizomes will be fine and will give the best chance for flowering again the next spring.
Best,
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Here are two erectum types:
- Trillium erectum from Kristl Walek
- Trillium erectum bought from Dutch Hosta nursery Fransen Hosta's, famous for their huge Hosta collection.
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Excellent discussion, Jamie, John, Gote, I would join with all of you I think in emphasising the importance of the soil. We have enriched an area of around 50 square metres of garden with bark which we keep topped up to a depth of around 8cm. This area harbours the bulk of our Trillium species plus Lilium, Polygonatum, Cypripedium etc. The depth of bark is not only an attempt to maintain a woodland type soil but also acts as a protective mulch in winter, and maintains soil moisture levels during the often long, hot Bulgarian summer.
Having said all the above,Trilium sessile as pictured below is growing in a less well developed soil in half shade and seems to be thriving.
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Hi all,
Seedlings from various pedicellate Trilliums (T erectum, sulcatum, rugelii, vaseyi, flexipes) growing together are often hybrids:
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Nice hybrids there Robin,
Ive often wondered with the amount of hybridization that is going on in peoples gardens and nurseries that these Trillium hybrids will be reconised as Triilium x hybridus. What does one think about this?
cheers
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Thanks Paul,
You'll need sunglasses with even darker glasses ;D because I will post this photo of the same plant last year:
Wow. Even more stunning!!
Robin,
Great hybrids. 01 and 06 are particularly nice to my eyes, although none of them are to be sneezed at. ;D
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The Trilliums are starting now.
This is an illustration to all name confusion among Trilliums.
the first was acquired as angustipetalum which it obviously is not. I guess albidum.
The second was acquired as cernuum which it is not - sulcatum???
Göte
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On the topic of seeds, I planted these in 2007 right after harvesting them, they germinated this spring 2009. I didn't expect so many to germinate. This year I will spread the seeds out better. Question is after germinating how many years to flower? Thanks for info.
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. . . after germinating how many years to flower?
Five to ten years as a general rule. Pot-sown trilliums will come to maturity and begin flowering sooner if planted out in the open garden. Wait until they form their first true leaves, then transplant into a nursery bed or their permanent quarters.
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Hi there,
Last autumn I bought a "Trillium grandiflorum roseum" from Paul Christian. It was good quality and flowered, but the flower was white with an almost invisible hint of pink.
Can I hope for a better colouring in a year with a colder spring (it was extremely warm, and for example Cypripediums have better/more intense colouring in cold springs) ?
Otherwise I'd have to look for a better source of this form - is there any nursery that sells the true grandiflorum "Daisy Hill" strain ?
Thank you !
Michael
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On the topic of seeds, I planted these in 2007 right after harvesting them, they germinated this spring 2009. I didn't expect so many to germinate. This year I will spread the seeds out better. Question is after germinating how many years to flower? Thanks for info.
You can expect one heart-shaped leaf 2010. Triple leafs 2011. Perhaps a small flower 2012 most of the flowering 2013. This if sown directly in the ground in a good place. Some will be quicker some slower.
Göte
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Trillium grandiflorum roseum
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Michael,
assuming the rose colour is coming from an anthocyanin pigment, which I am pretty sure it must be, then a cooler Spring will intensify the colouring. I can't explain why, but this is the general case with anthocyanin lavanders and pinks.
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Here are two of my forms of Trillium grandiflorum. Alas, the howling gales have wrecked 'Jenny Rhodes'.
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A few Trillium flowering at Edinburgh in the woodland garden the wind and weather have not taken their toll on the flower thank goodness.
Trillium erectum 11
Trillium grandiflorum forma flore pleno
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Wonderful grandiflorum clumps, Anthony. Beautiful.
John, that flore plena is divine. Had a small plant of that at one point, well the rhizome at least. It never shot that year and died before it shot the following. I was mortified (to put it mildly). That clump of erectum is amazing!
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Yes we have a good collection here they seem to like our not so warm summers. I will try and get out and photograph a few more if time permits.
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I'm very interested to see the damaged leaftips on the Trillium erectums in the foreground, as a few of my trilliums have had a similar thing this year. I've been worried in case it is a virus disease. Anybody know what causes it?
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I'm very interested to see the damaged leaftips on the Trillium erectums in the foreground, as a few of my trilliums have had a similar thing this year. I've been worried in case it is a virus disease. Anybody know what causes it?
Hi Ann i think this could be aphid damage which causes the leaves to distort or i hope it is i will need to go out and check now.
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Once in a while we see these scorched tips when the shoot tips emerge in December and then get clipped by the intense cold of a long winter. Such folly never seems to hurt the Trilliums.
johnw
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Thanks, I have been hoping it was some sort of mechanical damage as they were just emerging, though some of those affected were in the greenhouse. No signs of beasties.
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Once in a while we see these scorched tips when the shoot tips emerge in December and then get clipped by the intense cold of a long winter. Such folly never seems to hurt the Trilliums.
johnw
I have the same experience - you can see it in one of my postings this year. It somtimes hits the early risers.
Göte
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This one was bought a good few years back as Trillium underwoodii, I would be grateful if anyone could confirm this as I am not certain it's correct.
Cheers
Hristo
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My ovatum flowered this year in spite of the cold winter, It started as very beautiful white and is today dark pink. Two days ago it was very beautifully pink but I did not have the camera with me.
The grandiflorums are in full flower now.
My luteum has very beautiful leaves now. Unfortunately they fade when the flowers are out.
Cheers
Göte
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This one was bought a good few years back as Trillium underwoodii
My first thought on seeing the picture was Trillium recurvatum, but I don't know enough to tell them apart.
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A trillium season has started here.
Trillium sulcatum was the first to open its bud
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Cheers Rob, googled recurvatum and at it looks correct as recurvatum in both leaf and flower.
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Hi all,
Trillium recurvatum and lancifolium are closely related and sometimes difficult to distinguish. Here are some pictures of them flowering at the moment:
1) T. recurvatum group
2) T recurvatum
3) T recurvatum shayi
4) T recurvatum shari's flame
5) T recurvatum/lancifolium ?
6) T lancifolium
Robin
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There has been something very nasty happening to many Trilliums in New Zealand over the last couple of years, and it is, apparently a serious disease. I wondered about the leaf damage to the Edinburgh erectum, in comparison to ours. Unfortunately I have no pictures of ours at present but maybe one of our local lurkers could help here, either onto this thread or to me privately so I can post them. Whatever our problem is - and I believe it has been identified - it has caused major panic and distress among local growers. There are apparently at least a few remedies available.
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Heres an update picture of my second picture that I had posted. Would next year be ok to dig them up and give these some room to grow, or should I do it now?
Thanks for info.
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I would give them another year, Guff. They'll be bigger and stronger and easier to move out next year.
You may do a little more root damge in spreading them next year, but the rhizome will be big enough to withstand a bit of stress.
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I wish I could grow Trillium.
I just keep losing them. :'( :'( :'(
Eric
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This one was bought a good few years back as Trillium underwoodii, I would be grateful if anyone could confirm this as I am not certain it's correct.
According to Plate 69 in the Case book on trilliums, it can't be T. underwoodii. It's almost certainly T. recurvatum, which I have seen in commerce mislabelled as T. undulatum in 2008 and T. catesbaei this year.
Case's book also illustrates T. lancifolium (plate 55) the nearest relative to recurvatum, and the flower form would never be mistaken for that of recurvatum.
I suspect that a wholesale grower somewhere is cranking out vast quantities of T. recurvatum but as it one of the uglier trilliums (if not the ugliest), they are peddling it under nearly any other name.
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Heres an update picture of my second picture that I had posted. Would next year be ok to dig them up and give these some room to grow, or should I do it now?
If that were in my own garden, I'd definitely lift and divide that clump of seedlings. They're far too crowded. To my way of thinking, the risks associated with dividing them are less than the chance they'll crowd one another out.
Just water the clump well a day in advance, dig up the entire clump, then gently swish in water to wash away the soil, and one by one prick out the individual seedlings directly into the garden, without delay. Choose an area you can treat as a nursery bed and space them perhaps 2" apart. Water in well and if the site gets sun, shade the seedlings for a few days.
Handle the seedlings by the leaf, not the stem. If you damage the leaf you've done little harm, but if you crush the stem at the very least you will have set back the seedling badly, perhaps killed it.
According to my reading, one of the big differences between monocots and dicots is that if you damage the growing tip of a monocot root, that's it for the season. A dicot, by contrast, will simply proliferate the damaged root. Trilliums are monocots, so avoiding damage to root tips is esp. important.
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Cheers for the info Rodger, I have monographs on quite a few genera but sadly not Trillium. It is always a shame when suppliers feel the need to 'miss-name' a plant in order to sell it. I rather like recurvatum and given that I don't have it other than as a plant received under the underwoodii name I guess things could be worse!
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Heres an update picture of my second picture that I had posted. Would next year be ok to dig them up and give these some room to grow, or should I do it now?
Thanks for info.
I am sorry Maggie but i disagree.
I had two such clumps some years ago. I divided one of them at this stage - or slightly later and the other the following year. The one I divided gained a year until reaching flowering size.
This applied to central Swedish climate, sandy friable soil with "woodsy" humus in it. I did loose a few when dividing but how many mature plants can one accomodate.
Göte
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There has been something very nasty happening to many Trilliums in New Zealand over the last couple of years, and it is, apparently a serious disease. I wondered about the leaf damage to the Edinburgh erectum, in comparison to ours. Unfortunately I have no pictures of ours at present but maybe one of our local lurkers could help here, either onto this thread or to me privately so I can post them. Whatever our problem is - and I believe it has been identified - it has caused major panic and distress among local growers. There are apparently at least a few remedies available.
I suggest that you contact Carl Denton ( unless you did that already) he lost substantial parts of his collection due to a virus. carl@trilliums.co.uk
www.trilliums.co.uk
The damage in most of the posted pictures here looks to me as frost damage to the tips of leaves that were up too early.
Göte
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I wish I could grow Trillium.
I just keep losing them. :'( :'( :'(
Eric
Do you grow them in shade, or is it that they are eaten by slugs? South of Yorkshire they need shade but I can grow most in full sun here.
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I am sorry Maggie but i disagree.
I had two such clumps some years ago. I divided one of them at this stage - or slightly later and the other the following year. The one I divided gained a year until reaching flowering size.
This applied to central Swedish climate, sandy friable soil with "woodsy" humus in it. I did loose a few when dividing but how many mature plants can one accomodate.
Göte
No need to apologise, Göte, we all have our own methods !
I agree with you on the "how many mature plants can one accomodate?" point.... which is why I'd rather let the seedlings fight it out amongst themselves until the biggest ones are well able to take the stresses of lifting and splitting..... and I reckon losses might be fewer than Rodger fears . :)
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Thanks everyone for the help.
I dug up half of the clump. Next year I will do the rest, playing it safe. This was my first attempt growing Trillium's from seed. I wasn't expecting so many to germinate.
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Thanks Gote, yes, I'm pretty sure the local Trillium Group has it under control and have sent out heaps of info to members, just that mine haven't been affected and I live isolated from other gardens so feel I'm relatively safe. I believe Carl has been consulted as well.
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I have monographs on quite a few genera but sadly not Trillium.
That's easily rectified. Bookfinder.com coughs up 50 copies of Case's book, most about $50CDN or more. Bookfinder.com is esp. useful because it takes into account the cost of shipping to the country you are in. It's a meta-search engine and can greatly speed up finding an affordable copy of the books you crave.
Currently $1CDN is about $0.85US, 1.25 Bulgarian lev, Ł0.562UK.
I resisted buying Case's book for many years, but now that I have it, it gets a surprising amount of use.
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Thanks again for the info Rodger.
Found quietly flowering under a labiate, T.pusillum......?
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Not tricky or rare, but first time flowering for me after an autumn purchase, Trillium luteum.
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Found quietly flowering under a labiate, T.pusillum......?
AFAIK, there are only 4 really dwarf species of trillium: Tt. nivale, rivale, pusillum, and "hibbersonii". Each is easily distinguished from the others without resorting to a botanical key. Yours could be either T. pusillum or T. hibbersonii, but it looks much too tall to be T. hibbersonii.
HOWEVER: (there's always a "however") ;D Trilliums vary in size depending on age and conditions and you could have merely a dwarfed T. ovatum or T. grandiflorum.
Footnote: "Hibbersonii" in quotes because the only valid publication of the name is as a forma of T. ovatum. Geraldine Allen, a biology professor at the University of Victoria who is *the* expert on Erythronium (and has named a couple of species), once told me that she'd seen T. ovatum in the Selkirk Mountains of BC that were comparable in size to T. "hibbersonii",which lends support to the idea that it's a form of T. ovatum. This statement aroused the ire of a local trillium lover who claimed dogmatically that T. ovatum doesn't occur in the Selkirks, leading to a rather pitched argument, but I think a first hand account of a professional biologist has to trump mere opinion.
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Ouch, Rodger! :o The 'mere opinion' was from a trillium lover who is maybe more familiar with the local trilliums than an erythronium specialist who happens to be a professional biologist. As one of the latter I can say that it is always wise to take local knowledge into account.
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Speaking of varying in....? Here are some that have troubled me over the years. Firstly two labelled "not vaseyi" that were sent together as two vaseyi 'seedlings' (note the mould on the first pic); next sulcatum I think, showing frost damage to leaves? Then one sent as erectum and finally the real vaseyi.
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Hristo, this is what I have Trillium Pusillum "Roadrunner".
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Hi all,
Here are some pics of the last Trilliums to flower in our garden:
1) T. flexipes
2) T. rugelii
3) T. discolor
4) T. luteum
5) T. vaseyi
Robin
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Very nice, Robin. I love that rugelli and the wonderful yellow luteum. So nice!! Thanks for sharing the pics.
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Trillium naming is a real problem This one I got as grandiflorum 'Snow Bunting' I think it is correct
Cheers
Göte
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Oh Göte, isn't it just so perfect. I so hope to see one of these in real life one day..... they look so perfect in pictures. 8)
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From the sublime to the ridiculous - any ideas what it wrong with these T. grandiflorum? Quite a few of my seedlings are showing the same problem. They were all potted up last year.
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Anne,
Usually, green veinings with necrosis between indicates iron deficiency, often a symptom of overfertilising (which lowers the pH and locks away the iron from availability to the plant). But I think there are likely other less common reasons for you Trillium symptoms as well?
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Your 'Snow Bunting' IS correct Gote. Quite distinctive with one flower superimposed on the next, then the next, etc. I've rarely seen a better example illustrating this point.
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Your 'Snow Bunting' IS correct Gote. Quite distinctive with one flower superimposed on the next, then the next, etc. I've rarely seen a better example illustrating this point.
Thank you Lesley. A confirmation is always very welcome. :)
Göte
PS
The supplier has sold me a few wrongly named items during the years >:(
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Anne,
Usually, green veinings with necrosis between indicates iron deficiency, often a symptom of overfertilising (which lowers the pH and locks away the iron from availability to the plant). But I think there are likely other less common reasons for you Trillium symptoms as well?
You mean higher pH do you not??
Göte
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It will be interesting to see if they are normal next season then. Thanks, Paul.
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Göte,
I mean that the soil becomes more acid with high fertilising, so the pH number drops lower (Neutral is around 7, I think from memory the iron starts getting locked away around about 5 or so? Not entirely sure without looking it up). I have always thought of that as lowering the pH, but maybe it is different for different countries in their colloquial usage?
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Paul,
I have always believed that Iron is locked up at high pH. High pH is what causes clorosis on ericaceae like Rhododendron.
However I do think that you are right that the problem is caused by wrong pH.
Göte
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From my garden this week:
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I think I will repot a couple into fresh compost and leave the rest to see what happens.
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Paul, Göte,
the pH of the soil does change the availablility of cation elements. Göte has it correct in memory, the lower the pH, the more available the cations become. This includes Ca+ (calcium), P+ (phosphorus), K+ (potassium), Fe+ (iron), Zn+ (zinc), Al+ (aluminium), amongst others. Optimal pH for complete disassociation of the ions is around 5.0 pH, which is quite acid. For most plants this would create an overdose. Most plants are adapted to a pH between 6.5 - 7.2, with the exception of the Ericas and Co., which prefer 5.0-6.5. Many woodland plants do prefer a more acid pH.
Soil pH is a complex issue and the actual composition of the top soil and base ground varying greatly to create specific types of environments.
The Trillium looks chlorotic to me, which does mean a lack of iron. Solution is to increase the organics in the soil and lower the pH gently.
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Thanks, Jamie. Maybe a dose of sequestered iron might help?
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Maybe a dose of sequestered iron might help?
I'd try that, Ann
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Our soils here can be very acidic, especially along the coast. When plants, especially rhodos, experience chlorosis iron never seems to work. More often than not epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) and/or gypsum solves the problem rather quickly; sometimes it is starvation and a shot of lime frees up nutrients - this drives the book-readers totally mad.
Our remedies may simply be specific to our soils but worth a try if the iron fails.
johnw
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Our soils here can be very acidic, especially along the coast. When plants, especially rhodos, experience chlorosis iron never seems to work. More often than not epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) and/or gypsum solves the problem rather quickly; sometimes it is starvation and a shot of lime frees up nutrients - this drives the book-readers totally mad.
Our remedies may simply be specific to our soils but worth a try if the iron fails.
Rhododendron growers in the Pacific Northwest (on the other side of the North American continent) value dolomite. Winter rains leach all soluble nutrients out of the soils, including both calcium and magnesium. Dolomite corrects both deficiencies at the same time.
The conventional wisdom is that our soils are extremely acid but I am none to sure this is true. But nutrient deficiency there is no question about whatsoever.
Over the last decade, I have also given my entire garden a light feed with epsom salts, following the comment of a soil-knowledgable friend who pointed out how most plant foliage here tends to be yellowish. I can't say with certainty that the extra magnesium has made the difference, but certainly everything in my garden seems to grow better these days than it once did.
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I know that it is often said that the lack is in iron but it is magnesium in the chlorophyll so I expect that it is lack of magnesium that is the cause. Adding some iron derivates like iron sulphate lowers the the pH and makes magnesium more available if existing in the soil so it works indirectly.
This would explain the results that John is talking about. It may be a complex problem where more ions are involved in but having magnesium is good.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Thank you everyone for your comments.
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Allegedly we can combat chlorosis with iron chelates (as afoliar feed) so iron deficiency seems to be a reality. Iron is available nearly everywhere in the soil so to add it to the soil is not the answer to chlorosis. However high pH can lock it up so that some plants cannot take it up via the roots.
Since Calcium and magnesium are soulble especially in low pH, it is quite possible to have too little of them in an acid soil. Relatively small amounts are necessary as nutrients. Large amounts rise the pH to a level where the chlorosis problem may occur.
High pH can also cause magnesium deficiency but it seems to be more rare.
I suggest a visit to
http://extension.usu.edu/forestry/HomeTown/care_treatingIron.htm
and/or to
http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/dp_hfrr/extensn/problems/irnchlor.htm
Göte
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The luteums I posted in May 13th are now in flower - yes there is a faint lemon scent - this means that the markings on the leaves have faded which is a pity.
Göte
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Collected some seed today, and planted them. I washed the seed first, then sowed in a leaf compost bed. I will try to keep the spot moist until fall, maybe some will show in the spring? It has taken two springs for me to see seedlings above ground in the past.
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Neeto, Guff! I didn't realize the seed had an 'aril'- probably to aid distribution.
I brought a couple of Tr. cuneatum back with me from Cape Cod, which were just dormant. Hope I can get them to establish. Now that seed is ripening, I expect to get my lot from Kristl soon. I wouldn't have even tried Trillium, if it hadn't been for all of you on this forum. My previous failures really put me off. Thanks, all!
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Just to mention that yes the aril aids its distribution by ants and that wasps will do the same. Last summer I harvested some berrys from some T kurabayashii and placed them on an outdoor table and with amazement watched european wasps tear apart at the berry and fly off with the seed and fleshy fruit, all was gone in minuites. Hungry little buggers!
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Collected some seed today, and planted them. I washed the seed first, then sowed in a leaf compost bed. I will try to keep the spot moist until fall, maybe some will show in the spring? It has taken two springs for me to see seedlings above ground in the past.
If sown fresh (straight from the berry without any treatment), kurabayashii seed gives me the highest chance of germination the very first spring after sowing. This year even erectum seeds decided to appear in the spring after being sown fresh last summer. So, it is possible to have germination the following spring after sowing. Normally it will take two springs though.
Cheers,
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OK, folks,
I take it that some of you are getting to the point of harvesting fresh, ripe Trillium and Paris seed. I'm interested in just about any species. Drop me a PM, please! ;D ;D ;D
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Collected some seed today, and planted them. I washed the seed first, then sowed in a leaf compost bed. I will try to keep the spot moist until fall, maybe some will show in the spring? It has taken two springs for me to see seedlings above ground in the past.
If sown fresh (straight from the berry without any treatment), kurabayashii seed gives me the highest chance of germination the very first spring after sowing. This year even erectum seeds decided to appear in the spring after being sown fresh last summer. So, it is possible to have germination the following spring after sowing. Normally it will take two springs though.
Cheers,
When you have this early germination, how long time is it until you get winter conditions after sowing?
Göte
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I've just had my first ever seed from my Trillium maculatum f simulans. Does anybody know if it comes true from seed or are thye all likely to be plain T maculatum
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Welcome to the Forum Graham. :)
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I've just had my first ever seed from my Trillium maculatum f simulans. Does anybody know if it comes true from seed or are thye all likely to be plain T maculatum
Graham,
welcome aboard,
by definition a 'forma' is not a geographically isolated taxon and is typically found in mixed populations, therefore it may not breed true in the presence of other forms. It will tend to produce offspring with its characteristics, but this depends on the pollen parent a great deal. If the seed is from a selfing or pollination with another f. simulans, then it should breed true.
It would be interesting to hear your results.
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Jamie
some photos of Trillium kurabayashii colour variation.
Mike
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Wow, Mike, even the leaves are showing distinct pattern groups. Are there other species blooming synchron to T. kurabayashii, whereby hybrids might happen? From the looks of the flowers, these all seem pretty pure, but I really do not know enough about Trillium to place a sound judgement. This is fascinating. If these are all true, then the genome must have quite a bit of recessive variability, which only appears in isolated populations. From what little info I've read on T. kurabayashii, it is pretty stable colourwise in the wild, although a few hybrid swarms have been reported, possibly with T. albidum. It may be the species always carries a few hybrid genes in certain areas of its range.
In any case, these are very beautiful and desirable garden plants for sure!
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Stunning, Mike. Are these some of the ones I can perhaps expect from that seed you sent? I'd be stoked to grow any of those, particularly with the wonderful leaf markings. Beautiful pics, particularly the groups with the dark and the pinks mixed. That is some display!! Wish my Trilliums grew that well here. ::) Maybe I should print the pics and take them out and show my plants...... the sessile types are just starting to unfurl their shoots right now, as it happens. 8)
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Jamie
I do have Trillium albidum in the garden but it has flowered this year for the first time, so no cross fertilization from those plants. I do grow T. ovatum Roy Elliott and T. rivale but I can't imagine they would cause any problems with kurabayashii. All the mixed colour forms came from the seed of the very dark plant, the first photo posted today.
Mike
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Paul
Keep your fingers crossed because your seed is from the parent of the mixed coloured forms.
Mike
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Mike,
I thought that was the case, but so nice to have it confirmed. ;D I can but hope that they'll end up a selection like that. Some of those are particularly beautiful leaves to still have those dark a markings when the flowers are fully open. So often, promising leaf markings are already fading by the time the flowers are in prominence. Thank you SO much. 8) 8) 8)
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It's possible the seed parent is itself a hybrid. That would explain the wide variation in flower color.
If you browse through Fred Case's book on trilliums, you will find repeated references to hybrids in the wild and, as has already been pointed out, T. kurabayashii and T. albidum are among those species that hybridize naturally.
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Mike,
Nice T kurabayashii,
Do you remember the source of your original plant?
I had seed from North west seeds from Ron Radco and I too came up with colour variations from whites ,creams, pinks, red, marrons and even a yellow. All excellent colours and supposingly wild source but I was told they are most likely to be hybrids and not wild sourced as this colour selection is not found in the wild. Definatly not whites and yellows.
Also T Kurabayashii has also been misidentified in the past in gardens in the U.K and are in fact T chloropetalum. It may be worth keying out.
Cheers
cheers
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Stephen
The plants were grown from seed given to me by a friend nearby. Her plants came from Herbert & Molly Crook many, many years ago. My friend took specimens of her plants to Carl Denton and he confirmed them as T. kurabayashii. Hope this helps.
Mike
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Stephen, Mike,
based on the key in Trilliums (Case & Case), they would appear to be T. kurabayashii based on leaf form and mottling alone. The strongest key difference lies with the anthers, which do not have tissues above the anther sacs in T. kurabayashii and T. maculatum. Of course, T. maculatum is an Eastern species. Provenance does help!, but T. maculatum tends to have narrower, slightly drooping foliage in any case.
As to the colour variance, the more I read-up, the more it seems that T. kurabayashii is a new species developed via isolation from an ancient hybrid of what we now recognize as T. chloropetalum giganteum and T. albidum. This has most likely been previously considered. Trillium is an evolving genus, as most are. Without proper cytological evidence, the point is moot. As we become better and better at cultivating this genus, the garden hybrids will start to take over and pure species will always remain suspect.
I'm thrilled by this genus in any case.
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I have sown some different Trillium a few years ago. They are in pots, my question is, what time is best to replant them.
They are now in dormancy.
Grateful for answers Ulla
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I have sown some different Trillium a few years ago. They are in pots, my question is, what time is best to replant them.
They are now in dormancy.
Do you mean when is the best time to re-pot them, or to plant them out in the garden?
If possible, plant them out: my experience with seedling trilliums is that they will languish for years in a pot, but put them in the ground and a very few years later you will have flowers. Early spring when they are just starting to grow is a good time.
Be careful not to damage the roots. As monocots, trilliums will not proliferate new roots if the growing tips are damaged, unlike dicots where a damaged root will simply send out branching rootlets.
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Hi Rodger, thanks for your answer. Actually I was going to rep-pot them, but if growth is better in soil, I will plant them out in the garden in spring.
Ulla
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Hi Jamie - thanks for your response to my post re T maculatum f simulans. You have given me hope. I'll post the pictures of the seedlings in 6-7 years time
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Hi Jamie,
Just going back to T kurabayashii, yes its so close to T chloropetalum and to key it out to anther sacs thats a gardeners nightmare and a botanists joy but if Carl Denton confirms them to be kurabayashii well thats great news and nice to see the variation. Very nice Mike.
Will have to post mine up soon, they are just unfolding their leaves now.
cheers
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Folks, please note request posted here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4116.msg108448#new
Thanks!
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Hello Goete,
I have missed this question from you, sorry for that, but I am happy to answer it, no problem.
The erectum seeds were sown in late July, early August in wet weather conditions (our Summer in 2008 was dreadful). Winter started in December with hard freezing weather in January and February this year (minus 15 to 17 degrees Celsius), which is not normal for our winters. The seeds started to appear in April. Maybe the early and fresh sowing, wet summer conditions and cold winter did the trick, but that is only guessing, since not all my pots with erectum seeds germinated the very first spring after sowing.
Kurabayashii is a regular early riser for me. I have several pots emerging from fresh seeds only a year after sowing for several years in a row now.
Hope this clears up a little bit, which I doubt regarding the many variables......
Cheers,
John Aipassa
Aalten
Collected some seed today, and planted them. I washed the seed first, then sowed in a leaf compost bed. I will try to keep the spot moist until fall, maybe some will show in the spring? It has taken two springs for me to see seedlings above ground in the past.
If sown fresh (straight from the berry without any treatment), kurabayashii seed gives me the highest chance of germination the very first spring after sowing. This year even erectum seeds decided to appear in the spring after being sown fresh last summer. So, it is possible to have germination the following spring after sowing. Normally it will take two springs though.
Cheers,
When you have this early germination, how long time is it until you get winter conditions after sowing?
Göte
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Thank you John,
You probably understand my question but in case....
As I understand it: Trillium seeds go through a first stage of root formation and turning from seed into a micro-rhizome or whatever we call it and then - after a cold period start above ground. If the seed is sown too late, this first stage does not have enough time and thus germination above ground comes year three not year two.
Early August sowing with winter in December would give your seeds two-three months to complete stage one - which makes sense.
Cheers
Göte
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Howdy All,
Some of my Trillium albidum seedlings flowering for me this spring. As you can see, most definitely hybridised with something else. These were given to me as seedlings from the albidum parent but she did have other Trilliums. I am guessing qutie a bit of chloropetalum blood in them, and I am stoked as I didn't have this mauvey pink colour in Trillium prior to these flowering. Cool eh? ;D
So far Ive had pure white flowers, white with purple throat (as the albidum parent has) and 2 different shades of pinky mauve. 8) 8)
Please click on the pic for a larger version.
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Robert Rolfe told us on Saturday Trillium rivale is now Pseudotrillium rivale. The selections with silver veined leaves are now forma reticulatum
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Mark,
The Trillium to Pseudotrillium has been in place for a few years (but I still call them Trillium I must admit ;)). The reticulatum makes sense. I've only ever seen those here on the forums.... didn't even know they existed until I think it was Michael C. who originally posted a pic and knocked my proverbial socks off. 8)
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Robert Rolfe told us on Saturday Trillium rivale is now Pseudotrillium rivale. The selections with silver veined leaves are now forma reticulatum
Aha, an evil splitter!
Pseudotrillium I will grudgingly accept, but not forma reticulatum, as silver veined leaves are sporadic in populations of Trillium rivale. It seems to me that honoring some variant with a formal taxonomic designation somehow implies that there are wild populations with the character and other populations without it.
At one time, Romanian botanists were naming every little variation they found but at least they had the gumption to use the taxonomic category lusus, meaning sport or freak (the latter usually in the phrase lusus naturae). Lusus is the lowest level in the taxonomic hierarchy and may be deprecated these days.
All of which raises two questions: first, who is to say that the type specimen of Trillium rivale did not have silver-veined leaves? Further, what does the botanical description of Trillium rivale say? Does anyone have access to the original Latin diagnosis? If the type had veined leaves, the rules of botanical nomenclature preclude distinguishing it by an additional epithet; you'd have to name the unmarked leaf specimens forma phyllo-immaculata, or, better lusus p-m.
A second question arises after consulting my Latin dictionary. In Latin, "lusus" means sport in the sense of recreation, not sport in the sense of freak. I suspect that translating lusus naturć as "freak of nature" is incorrect; a better translation would make clear the implicit idea that sports are the result of Ma Nature's playfulness. Perhaps "natural sport" is a better translation. Remember, you read it here first.
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Rodger,
for the record, forma is nowthe lowest demarcation one can attribute to botanic specimens and is nothing more than a distinct variant, often represented by a single plant; ie, a clone. Although I find the splitters often get a bit overwrought, I find using forma for albinos, aureas, etc. a good thing. I see it as a bridge from the taxonomist to the gardener. It acknowledges the occurance of a taxus, but doesn't make too much fuss. Now, if they had named it var. reticulatum, that would have been possibly too much! A variety should be well represented within a population and interbreeds freely with it. If one were to find wild populations of reticulate plants, versus occaisional single specimens, then variety would be correct.
It is a bit of hair-splitting, but I find the current terms better defined than before. It is still an unexact science under sciences.
jamie
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Robert Rolfe told us on Saturday Trillium rivale is now Pseudotrillium rivale. The selections with silver veined leaves are now forma reticulatum
Aha, an evil splitter!
Pseudotrillium I will grudgingly accept, but not forma reticulatum, as silver veined leaves are sporadic in populations of Trillium rivale. It seems to me that honoring some variant with a formal taxonomic designation somehow implies that there are wild populations with the character and other populations without it.
At one time, Romanian botanists were naming every little variation they found but at least they had the gumption to use the taxonomic category lusus, meaning sport or freak (the latter usually in the phrase lusus naturae). Lusus is the lowest level in the taxonomic hierarchy and may be deprecated these days.
All of which raises two questions: first, who is to say that the type specimen of Trillium rivale did not have silver-veined leaves? Further, what does the botanical description of Trillium rivale say? Does anyone have access to the original Latin diagnosis? If the type had veined leaves, the rules of botanical nomenclature preclude distinguishing it by an additional epithet; you'd have to name the unmarked leaf specimens forma phyllo-immaculata, or, better lusus p-m.
A second question arises after consulting my Latin dictionary. In Latin, "lusus" means sport in the sense of recreation, not sport in the sense of freak. I suspect that translating lusus naturć as "freak of nature" is incorrect; a better translation would make clear the implicit idea that sports are the result of Ma Nature's playfulness. Perhaps "natural sport" is a better translation. Remember, you read it here first.
I have always believed that lusus naturae meant nature's joke somehow connecting it to Ludere = play. Homo ludens = the playing man. It is incorporated into English in 'ludicrous'
Botany is not always that serious. Linné gave the name Brovallia to a genus in "honour" of a certain bishop because it had a creeping habit ;D
'Sport' is supposed to come from French 'desporter' meaning originally carry away, divert. which is precisely what a sport of a plant does.
Cheers
Göte
PS
I fully support Jamie's views.