Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Plant Identification => Plant Identification Questions and Answers => Topic started by: Diane Clement on March 13, 2009, 10:41:41 AM
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I found this cyclamen in flower yesterday. It was in a pot of mixed Cyclamen coum seedlings. This one has a pure white flower with no pink nose. The leaves are coum shaped leaves with a typical coum pattern, but rather dark. They are also surprisingly glossy, unusually for coum.
I have only ever seen a pure white coum in Golan Heights which has a more different flower shape and plain leaves. Although I have had Golan Heights a couple of times, I have never succeeded in getting it through the winter.
Is it possible this plant is a hybrid? Not many cyclamen have pure white flowers with no pink nose. Any thoughts?
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Diane,
It isn't Golan Heights, as you have mentioned G.H has a different shape, it has flat form of flower which is typical to the southern populations.
I tend to think that yours is a new Albino form originated from the eastern population, because of the elongated form of the petals and the mouth.
The thick glossy leaf generally is a characteristic of species that grow in hard conditions, such as C, parvifolium and C, colchicum. [either very windy or very humid], but i think the chance it is an Hybrid with parviflorum resulting in pure Album is almost impossible.
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Diane,
It isn't Golan Heights, as you have mentioned G.H different shape, it has flat form of flower which is typical to the southern populations.
I tend to think that yours is a new Albino form originated from the eastern population, because of the elongated form of the petals and the mouth.
Thanks for this, Oron. Have you any thoughts about the shiny leaves? I've only seen similar leaves like this on C pseudibericum
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I have added my thoughts on the leaf to the original message.
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Thanks Oron
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Diane,
that is a very interesting plant. There doesn't look to be any red in the flower stem or leaf reverse, which may indicate lack of pigment and therefore albino type.
Is it your own seed or did it come from an exchange ?
There is a pure white called 'George Bisson ' I'll take and post pics of it tomorrow. But yours doesn't look like it.
Mmmmm ???
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The flower is just charming...... and that leaf....it is very shiny, isn't it? Very exciting plant, I should say.
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Here is Georges Bisson for comparison, red petioles show through the flowers. More vigorous than Golan Heights and better planted out for me.
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Diane, that is a very interesting plant. There doesn't look to be any red in the flower stem or leaf reverse, which may indicate lack of pigment and therefore albino type. Is it your own seed or did it come from an exchange ?
There is a pure white called 'George Bisson ' I'll take and post pics of it tomorrow. But yours doesn't look like it.
Hi Jo, thanks for your comments and pictures of George Bisson. I also saw one (GB) at Blackpool show today and it has fairly normal coum leaves, whereas mine are thick and shiny like pseudibericum leaves. Rob Potterton independently today said the same as you about the lack of colour in the petioles, meaning it is a pure albino.
Where did it come from? Good question. I have approx 500 cyclamen in pots, the vast majority of them have labels carefully written with date of sowing and germination, then codes referring to parentage etc. This particular plant was in a pot just labelled "coum" with 5 others, all the same age, but all different. Sadly I don't remember where it came from. Isn't that typical!! ::) However, for me to have labelled it coum, last year when they were not flowering size, they must have been in another pot of coum, so were possibly seedlings round the side of a larger one
The only pure white I have ever had was Golan Heights (twice) but I have never managed to keep it through the winter. I suppose it (GH) might have pollinated another plant and this is the progeny but not sure if this is possible.
I have asked a few opinions about it today and will continue to ask a few more.
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That GB is lovely Jo. One I must look out for.
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It's a very lovely plant, indeed. I guess I'm old enough to be preachy, so let me plead with you to carefully save the seed and grow more of these, then if they come true, contribute seed to exchanges far and wide.
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hello, I have just seen this topic, and wanted to point out the photos that Jo posted are not of cyclamen coum albissimum "George Bisson". "George Bisson" is a pure albino with no red at all on the flower or leaf stalks, and a pure white flower. It is a much tougher plant than Coum albissimum "golan heights".
The seed pods and seeds also also a pale greeny brown colour without any red. It is very difficult to get it to set seed that is viable hence it is very slow to propogate.
I first discovered "George Bisson" in 1994 and named it after my father.
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Hello, Mary, welcome to the Forum. Have you a photo of the correct plant, named for your Father?
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hello Maggi,
yes I do have many photos here somewhere, I will try and post some later on. There are some photos of the seeds pods on the cyclamen society website that I think were taken by Martyn Denny of a plant I gave him about 10 years ago.
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Hi Mary
Good to have you on the forum. I'd be also very interested to see a picture of 'George Bisson'. Was it a chance seedling or found in the wild?
Would you also be able to offer any thoughts on my albino at the beginning of this thread? Almost more interesting than the albino flower was the thick leaf texture. I am getting very excited to see it flower soon again, I also have some siblings of it that I hope will flower for the first time this year.
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Diane it looks as if it could be a show stopper or topper, when you get it into a 36cm pot ofcourse. ::) ;D
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hello, I do have some photos on my computer somewhere but cannot access them easily at the moment, I do have a link to edgewood gardens photo albums and there they have some superb photos of cyclamen coum albissimum "George Bisson" and also cyclamen coum albissimmum "golan heights". I hope the link below will work. If not if you enter www.edgewoodgardens.net and search for coum albissimum "George Bisson" you should find it. They are superb close up photos showing the lack of redness to the flowers and stems.
www.edgewoodgardens.net/Plants_album/The%20Plants%20-%20%20Complete%20Collection/Primulaceae/Cyclamen/Subgen%20Gyrophoebe%20Ser%201/C.%20coum/slides/Cyclamen%20coum%20ssp.%20coum%20f.%20albissimum%20George%20Bisson%200001.html
I found the orginal seedling entirely by chance in a group of coum seedlings growing outside that were grown from seed collected from my own plants. I can remember the day I first saw it, for some reason I began to search through the flowering seedlings looking for an all white one, maybe my eye had seen it but not registered it, as they are so incredibly rare the chances of finding one like this were very slim.
As for the seedling at the beginning of this thread, ar first glance it doesn't look like cyclamen coum albissimum "GeorgeBisson" nor does it appear similar to cyclamen coum "golan helghts", although it does appear to have plain green leaves, maybe it is a new cyclamen coum albissimum. It will be interesting to see more photos when it flowers this winter, and it is also exciting to know you have some seedlings coming along :)
I am also curious where Jo obtained her cyclamen coum and whether she named it or it was named when she purchased it.
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Hello Mary ,
Is there a chance to get seeds of the true C.coum "George Bisson " ?
I fear when I order this seeds from the C.S. I will get also wrong named plants ...
I grow also C. "Golan Height" but they never make seeds ....
Thank you in advance
Hans
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Hello Hans,
seeds of George Bisson are slow to obtain, that is true, I find the plant difficult to get to set many seeds. For the past few years I have had almost no seed set to be able to pass any onto the cyclamen society. I do know that numerous people in the society have plants that I have given them over the years in the hope that they will pass on seeds when they have them.
Sometimes seedlings just pop up around the greenhouse, usually in very odd places, presumably as a result of ant activity.
I find golan heights can also be temperamental about setting seeds, though much easier that George Bisson, a friend gave me some of his golan heights seeds last summer and the resulting seedlings are beginning to come into flower now.
best wishes,
Mary
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Do you guys hand pollinate things to help seedset? I find with some of the species it is virtually the only way to get seedset here (rohlfsianum, pseudibericum and purpurascens for example). I have near pure white coums, plus seed down of albissimum from an SRGCer here (has not germinated as yet, so now not expected to germinate until autumn), but haven't seen any real pure whites in person as yet.
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Hello Hans,
seeds of George Bisson are slow to obtain, that is true, I find the plant difficult to get to set many seeds. For the past few years I have had almost no seed set to be able to pass any onto the cyclamen society. I do know that numerous people in the society have plants that I have given them over the years in the hope that they will pass on seeds when they have them.
Sometimes seedlings just pop up around the greenhouse, usually in very odd places, presumably as a result of ant activity.
I find golan heights can also be temperamental about setting seeds, though much easier that George Bisson, a friend gave me some of his golan heights seeds last summer and the resulting seedlings are beginning to come into flower now.
best wishes,
Mary
Hello Mary ,
Thank you for your answer .
OK- I will try it to get in this year some seeds from the C.S. - maybe I have luck to get the true plant
Best wishes
Hans
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hello, I do have some photos on my computer somewhere but cannot access them easily at the moment, I do have a link to edgewood gardens photo albums and there they have some superb photos of cyclamen coum albissimum "George Bisson" and also cyclamen coum albissimmum "golan heights". I hope the link below will work. If not if you enter www.edgewoodgardens.net and search for coum albissimum "George Bisson" you should find it. They are superb close up photos showing the lack of redness to the flowers and stems.
www.edgewoodgardens.net/Plants_album/The%20Plants%20-%20%20Complete%20Collection/Primulaceae/Cyclamen/Subgen%20Gyrophoebe%20Ser%201/C.%20coum/slides/Cyclamen%20coum%20ssp.%20coum%20f.%20albissimum%20George%20Bisson%200001.html
I found the orginal seedling entirely by chance in a group of coum seedlings growing outside that were grown from seed collected from my own plants. I can remember the day I first saw it, for some reason I began to search through the flowering seedlings looking for an all white one, maybe my eye had seen it but not registered it, as they are so incredibly rare the chances of finding one like this were very slim.
As for the seedling at the beginning of this thread, ar first glance it doesn't look like cyclamen coum albissimum "GeorgeBisson" nor does it appear similar to cyclamen coum "golan helghts", although it does appear to have plain green leaves, maybe it is a new cyclamen coum albissimum. It will be interesting to see more photos when it flowers this winter, and it is also exciting to know you have some seedlings coming along :)
I am also curious where Jo obtained her cyclamen coum and whether she named it or it was named when she purchased it.
Hi Mary, I've just picked up on this conversation, sorry for the delay :)
My 'George Bisson' came from Ashwood nurseries and I bought 3 plants. I have 2 in pots and one planted in a wet woodland situation in the garden. I will have a look and see if there is a difference between the individuals.
Much of the garden is under snow so it may be a day or two before I have an answer.
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Hi again Mary,
All 3 of my George Bisson plants have some red colour in the petioles. Much the same as picture 26 in the link you posted.
Seed exchanges are definately not the place to get 'named' cultivars of Cyclamen. As is demonstrated by this pot of GB seedlings from the Cyclamen Society seed exchange.
Since all Cyclamen are grown from seed and they are all genetically diverse it stands to reason that a cultivar needs to have many generations of controlled back crossing to fix the characteristics wanted. One open pollination can mess the whole seed yield up.
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This thread which I have just seen has everything. Diane kicks it off with a rare new finding - of another C.coum albissimum, only the third (?) so far. Well done. Appropriate development follows as in the first act of a play. Then high drama as a newcomer takes the stage, unexpected; a new voice - authoritative, modest and poignant. Mary, I think Agatha Christie could not haver done it better. Coupled with that a link, a feast of a link, to photographs which are pertinent, forensic in quality and rich in comparative examples. All encompassed with remarkable economy a few posts which are informative and highly entertaining.
This is the Forum at peak performance; absolutely tip-top - like a Rooney on fire. Participants merit our warmest commendation and thanks; take a bow, folks.
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good news to this topic also from me :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4752.msg136063#msg136063
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I was also going to observe that this thread is a fine working example of the dilemma of naming seed strains as though they were cultivars. As I know from my own experience, the dilemma is especially acute with hardy cyclamen, for which the fully-tested generation interval is up to four or five years - unless, that is, one has perfected the use of GA3 and grow-lights. It is not uncommon therefore, even with relatively stable named forms, hand-pollinated, to find a range of outcomes in any batch of seedlings. The problem is all the more exacting where the test is multi-dimensional: size, shape and colour of flower and size, shape and colour of leaf immediately gives 6 characteristics to guard.
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This thread which I have just seen has everything. Diane kicks it off with a rare new finding - of another C.coum albissimum, only the third (?) so far. Well done. Appropriate development follows as in the first act of a play. Then high drama as a newcomer takes the stage, unexpected; a new voice - authoritative, modest and poignant. Mary, I think Agatha Christie could not haver done it better. Coupled with that a link, a feast of a link, to photographs which are pertinent, forensic in quality and rich in comparative examples. All encompassed with remarkable economy a few posts which are informative and highly entertaining.
This is the Forum at peak performance; absolutely tip-top - like a Rooney on fire. Participants merit our warmest commendation and thanks; take a bow, folks.
Welcome to the forum, Basil, and thanks for your interest. I have posted pictures of my albino coum this year in the Cyclamen 2010 thread, linked here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4752.msg137733#new (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4752.msg137733#new)
Also another albino coum in the thread, this one from Ashwood. Plus a couple of good strong colours, both from you, I think Basil.
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Diane -
Thanks for your cross-reference to the Cyclamen 2010 thread (on the BULBS GENERAL board). Delighted to be re-acquainted with coum Linnett Jewel and coum Meaden's Crimson which left me in the 1990's
Hans -
You may already be aware that the three named forms of coum albissimum are grown by Ashwood Nurseries (www.ashwood-nurseries.co.uk) who mail-order seeds and some plants. A personal letter to, say, Brian at Ashwoods might be productive; certainly worth a try. You could also phone and ask to speak to Brian direct.
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Hans -
.....You could also phone and ask to speak to Brian direct......
Basil :
thank you for your advice !
but I think you are joking with me when you write I should phone :o
I'm happy when I understand here 30% - but a phonecall is impossibly !
( and I dont know how much the forumists understand from my "english") ???
In meantime I have ordered from Netherland seeds of Cyc. alb. "George Bisson" .....also I have one pot with a plant of it - also I have "Golan Height's" and I hope to get in this year "Lake Effect"
Shure - "Ashwood Snowflake" would also be a nice addition ;)