Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => General Forum => Topic started by: Stephenb on February 15, 2009, 09:44:24 AM
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I don’t know whether this is the right place for this, but I’m sure it will be moved if it’s wrong.
First, a few words of explanation as I don’t think I’ve introduced myself before. My interest is in edible plants and, in particular, exploring and growing wild edible plants from around the world (ethnobotany in short, but mainly food plants, not medicinals), and in particular the more hardy species that have a chance in my garden near the Norwegian city, Trondheim. I remember years ago being told by a leading North American herbalist that the Rock Garden clubs were an excellent source of the more unusual herbs. I therefore originally joined NARGS and subsequently SRGC and AGS and in addition to compiling my own seed trade list, I’ve managed to source many of the plants that I’ve been keen to try. Quite a few of them would be classified as rock garden plants. A good example is Sideritis syriaca from the White Mountains of Crete, probably the source of the most popular herbal tea in Greece, but almost unknown in Herb Gardens in Europe, but you can occasionally find it in rock gardens.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/Sideritis_syriaca_likes_a_free_drai.jpg)
For obvious reasons, the genus Allium is one of my favourites. Therefore, I thought I’d show a few of them here (as I get round to it). Some may well be wrongly identified, so please correct me (part of the reason for posting here is to tap into the wealth of knowledge you all represent). I also have a couple of unknowns that I’d like identification help with.
I am also interested in increasing my collection. I have a large trade list with some 50 Alliums, so send me a PM if you might be interested.
The first 4 pictures are of one of my favourites, Allium wallichii. I have tried various cultivars (seed propagated), some of which are still small and I’ve also lost a few. The pictures are of my oldest plant. Not sure if this is a cultivar or close to the species…. It is one of the latest emerging in the spring/early summer along with Allium macranthum, seems to spread underground surprisingly far for an Allium. It is used wild collected for food in Nepal, where it is also economically important. I’ve only used the leaves so far. They are relatively strong tasting. For the curry-loving Brit, try in dal! It’s quite a large plant so quite productive once it gets going…
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/Allium_wallichii.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/Allium_Wallichii_for_dinner.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/Allium_wallichii_emerging_flower.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/Allium_wallichii_flowers.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/Allium_wallichii_seed_heads.jpg)
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Stephen,
Now there's a topic I don't believe I've seen on any of the discussion lists--edible alpines.
I'll look forward to hearing more about your plants/garden.
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I imported a plant of Sideritis syriaca from the UK many years ago, can't remember from which nursery. It and other species are in the seed lists occasionally. The tea make from it is apparently hallucinatory, hence its great popularity in Greece and Turkey
In a previous garden I made a herb garden of (probably) not edible herbs, but ornamental ones, Origanums, sages, thymes, mints etc. The smells and foliage colours and patterns were lovely. Maybe I'll do it again.
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Given that we have a 'recession' in the UK this thread could prove to be very popular ;D
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Fascinating, Stephen! I would love to read about more of your plants.
(A friend here is planting a garden in which every plant is either (pleasantly) scented or edible!)
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Hi Stephen,
I assume you know about Allium scordoprasum. On Gotland it is called 'Kaip' and it is quite a seasonal festival when it is picked in the spring.
We tried a Kaip-potato soup last spring (It is a weed in our garden) and it was quite goood.
Göte
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I imported a plant of Sideritis syriaca from the UK many years ago, can't remember from which nursery. It and other species are in the seed lists occasionally. The tea make from it is apparently hallucinatory, hence its great popularity in Greece and Turkey
I've certainly never had any exciting experiences from Sideritis tea. Have never heard of it being a hallucinogen. Would appreciate if you have a reference...
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I imported a plant of Sideritis syriaca from the UK many years ago, can't remember from which nursery. It and other species are in the seed lists occasionally. The tea make from it is apparently hallucinatory, hence its great popularity in Greece and Turkey
I've certainly never had any exciting experiences from Sideritis tea. Have never heard of it being a hallucinogen. Would appreciate if you have a reference...
Ian is very partial to tea... of all sorts ::)
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Hi Stephen,
I assume you know about Allium scordoprasum. On Gotland it is called 'Kaip' and it is quite a seasonal festival when it is picked in the spring.
We tried a Kaip-potato soup last spring (It is a weed in our garden) and it was quite goood.
Göte
Yes, Allium scorodoprasum is an interesting plant found around the coasts of Norway and Sweden and it's probably a relict of cultivation going way back. The vikings cultivated an Allium called "Geirlauk" (which is the root of the English word Garlic). Geir=Spear; Lauk=Onion. The most likely cultivated species seems to be Allium scorodoprasum, although there are a couple of other candidates, including Allium sativum (Garlic). I have Allium scorodoprasum from 4 localities in Scandinavia, two from Denmark, one from southern Norway and the last is actually from Gotland, from Vale Gaard (Vale Farm), a farm that can be traced back to the time of the Vikings!
So, here are a few pictures of scorodoprasum, first the spring shoots:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P5011310_Allium_scorod_jajlae.jpg)
You can see here why it is believed that this is the Viking’s Spear Onion:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P6082341_Allium_scor_so_high.jpg)
It has both flowers and bulbils:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P7103454_allium_scorod.jpg)
I actually have a small project (for the Norwegian Genetic Resource Centre) working on collecting "old onions" from old gardens, and usually from old people ;) and scorodoprasum is one of the species we are interested in collecting. The four we have so far do actually vary quite a bit.
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Ian's welcome round any time for a sip or two of Sideritis-tea...
I take no responsibility for his subsequent actions, though....
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Thanks to your encouragement, I will continue...
Next stop is North America, the West Coast. Allium validum, the Swamp Onion or Pacific Onion is common in wet mountain meadows in California and further north and seems to love the conditions I throw at it here in Norway, in damp soil next to a small pond. The bulbs and leaves were food for Native Americans over its range. It’s quite a large species and quite attractive too I think. It would fit in perfectly in that damp spot next to the waterfall in your rock garden (you know where I mean, I'm sure ;) )
I started mine from seed from two different sources a few years ago. Herein lies a story, because the seeds of one of these two plants flew across the US a few hours before 9/11. I had been at a conference in California and had collected the seed myself....
The plants from the two sources are here growing side by side and the shade of green is strikingly different. It emerges early in the year. The picture is taken on 1st May:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P5011299_Allium_validum_010508.jpg)
It’s quite a tall plant:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P6142535_allium_valid.jpg)
In flower:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P6242892_Allium_validum-1.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P6293152_Allium_Validum_with_bee.jpg)
Altogether, a garden worthy Allium in my opinion....
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Stephen, I don't have any specific reference, my comment was based on anecdotal "evidence" from the time Roger and I sent in the Greek mountains. When we showed local people pictures of the plants that we'd seen, they rolled their eyes and fell about and gave us very strong "nudge, nudge, wink, wink," actions that it was very obvious what they were telling us even though they had little English and we, no Greek except a few words. We weren't collecting plants but they wanted to know exactly where we'd seen it and asked us if we had any to spare.
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Gosh, incredible alpines. 8)
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A good many fruit-bearing plants are marketed in NZ as "Incredible Edibles" which really makes me angry as most will never bear fruit in our climate or maybe ever, anywhere. Some are berries such as Rubus chamaemorus and another called (I think) R. pentalobus. They have flashy pictures but as all the plants are propagated from single clones, no-one is ever going to get fruit on plants which need both male and females for fruit. And our temps DO NOT go so low as those as the far north of Scandinavia. I once pointed some of this out to someone as she took a plant and was asked to leave the shop. No regrets though. >:(
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Gosh, icredible alpines. 8)
I call them edimentals...as in edible ornamentals
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Stephen,
Mine come - I think - from the litle ridge Kilsbergen northwest of Örebro. You are welcome to some bulbs at a suitable time of the year but please remind me.
Göte
PS
I assume that you now have put your mark on the English language. 'Edimentals'
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great thread! thanks :)
i am just starting both ornamental and food gardens, carved from the bush here in zone 2-3 western canada;
definitely intending to explore edible natives, herbs and much more; edimentals are always welcome--why have only one of the two if you can have both ?
i recently purchased a book on edibles of the rocky mountains, though i suspect many of these plants would not be pleasing to modern palates( a lower tolerance of bitter foods--probably esp here in north america!) and some that sound most tasty are beautiful flowering bulbs (eg, camassia) that i'd be loathe to dig up even if they were thriving for me...lol
cohan
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Well, I'm sure you can find this one in the Rocky Mountains. The Nodding Onion, Allium cernuum is one of my favourite perennial vegetables. Look at the pictures and background below and I think you’ll see why.
It has the widest distribution of any Allium in North America and prefers full sun habitats, although it prefers cooler damper conditions (it thrives in my cool garden anyway).
See http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ALCE2
It is believed that the city of Chicago was named after a local Indian tribe’s name for this onion (although possibly also others), being a common plant where the city was founded. This onion was widely used as a staple by Native American tribes throughout its range. I remember years ago getting a copy of Sturtevant’s Edible Plants of the World and reading that Allium cernuum and A. canadense had formed almost the entire source of food to the French Missionary (Jacques) Marquette and his party from Green Bay to the present site of Chicago in 1674! I love plants with a story and this inspired me originally to get hold of this plant. Fittingly, there’s a park in Chicago called Marquette Park (named after Pere Marquette) and a remnant of the original prairie on which Chicago was built thrives there thanks to volunteers, with Allium cernuum one of the original plants…..
Most pictures below are of the large cultivar “Pink Giant” – at least this is what I got it as many years ago. Although probably not an official name I see that it is now offered by nurseries and in seed catalogues, possibly originally from me as I’ve sent it to many people over the years. From my experience, there are probably several synonyms: “Hidcote”, “Rubra”, “Major” that I’ve received from rock garden clubs have all turned out very similar to Pink Giant.
So, here is a year in the life of the Nodding Onion (it doesn’t get much rest from my “grazing”, poor thing, available all year round…). The taste? It’s fairly strong, similar in strength to common bulb onions (Allium cepa).
The first picture shows various Alliums harvested here in late March as soon as the earth has thawed (some species of perennial Allium can even be harvested in mid-Winter putting on new growth in mild spells)
From L to R: Allium obliquum, A. x proliferum, A. nutans, A. cernuum, A. victorialis, A. fistulosum, A. schoenoprasum sibiricum, Allium ursinum, A. schoenoprasum
Now (Picture 2), in late April – a picture of various perennial veggies ready for the pot – Allium cernuum is rather attractive, don’t you think?
This is one of the most attractive Alliums in my opinion. In picture 3 the nodding flowers are just emerging around mid-summer.
In flower (Picture 4 and 5)
There are a number of other attractive cultivars. This white flowered variety (Picture 6) is perhaps closer to the size of the wild species?
All together, a nodding bouquet (Picture 7)
If you like to decorate your salads with flowers, Allium cernuum is perfect, attractive and tasty. In picture 8, you can see both Pink Giant and album:
Allium cernuum self-seeds en masse if one doesn’t dead head (Picture 9) . It grows quite fast from seed.
The Nodding Onion remains green even in our hardest winter weather (Picture 10), although browning at the tips…
Hope this whetted the appetite, most of you probably have this one in the garden already, and it can be harvested today if you can find it under the snow....
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thanks, stephen--nice pictures
A cernuum is widely available from wildflower nurseries, and i think the wild forms are available in both white and pink; i doubt many people eat it, although it is known that its edible;
i dont have any yet, but it is on my list, for sure; it does occur wild in alberta, though i have not seen any around here; maybe this year i will be lucky enough to find some, likely on some field trip west or south;
i suspect it will not be evergreen here, but it will be interesting to see, for sure--i'm fairly sure my coldest winter weather is colder than yours;
our ground has been frozen solid since early december, and, except for some exposed sunny spots, will be for quite some time to come yet, and still plenty of snow cover, except in those same exposed spots and some tree bases..
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Stephen, what are the flowers in the salad that look like Malva or Lavatera?
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i suspect it will not be evergreen here, but it will be interesting to see, for sure--i'm fairly sure my coldest winter weather is colder than yours;
The lowest temperature I've experienced here is about -23C. We're right next to Norway's largest fjord which doesn't get below +6C which gives us a much milder climate than inland. At the moment we have a good snow cover, but it can disappear quite quickly. Allium cernuum stays evergreen down to at least -20C (without protective snow cover).
Stephen
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Stephen, what are the flowers in the salad that look like Malva or Lavatera?
It's either Malva sylvestris or Malva moschata, the former I think!
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yeah, a little colder here;
being in the western part of the province, that means nearer the mountains, we still get the moderating air systems from the pacific (called chinooks, as probably some of you have heard of) which diminish as you go farther east--of course, those systems are already much weaker by the time they have come over the rockies, and this far north (southern alberta has it stronger), but we still have milder spells than areas to the east;
our min is around -45C, though not often seen, but a few days near -40 are not rare, and nights in -20's and days -10 to -18 are common enough; we are somewhere over 900m (town where i work, to the west 30km is 980m and the city to the east 60km is 905m), so there can be a large difference from day to night--i joked with a friend in florida that we can have more variation in a day than she gets in a year, and its just about true! (for example we had some days in around 30C daytime, near freezing night; thursday's forecast is for a high of -1C and a low of -19..
cohan
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Interesting. The pink form of Allium cernuum thrives in my garden and as you say it self-seeds a lot. The flowers are very nice and I often use them in flower arrangements. I have never thought of eating them but I will try that now :)
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Our unidentified Scandinavian onion.....or mystery and intrigue north of the Arctic circle
Here's one for my Swedish friends....
Here in Norway, the government funded Genetic Resource Centre (NGRC) was founded a few years ago (they were involved in the Doomsday Seed Vault on Svalbard which I’m sure many of you have heard of). As I’ve mentioned, I’m currently working (extra to my day job) coordinating a project for NGRC documenting and collecting old garden and naturalised onions (Allium).
I also mentioned earlier that I need some help with identification of a few om my Alliums. This is one of them. But first, let me tell its story. In 2004 I visited forumist Magnar Aspaker and his fantastic garden in Harstad in Northern Norway (hei Magnar if you are reading!). One of the plants I came away with was an unknown Allium which he called just Ex-Råneå as it came originally from a place of that name in Northern Sweden via another Swedish gardener. I planted it in my garden when I got home.
As you can see in the following pictures, it is quite a large plant and really is quite attractive. It is also a productive and tasty one from a food point of view (yes, an excellent edimental). As with most Alliums (all apart from the late flowering ones), one can harvest all the leaves for food and it will still flower later in the summer.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P5251826_Allium_Rane_lvs.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P6262959_Allium_Raneaa.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P7263934_Allium_Rane.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P7263931_Allium_Rane.jpg)
When I started working on my ”old onion” project I started hearing rumours of an unidentified onion being found in old gardens in Northern Sweden. It had been discovered by a botanist at the botanical gardens in Lund when they had been looking to see if Siberian/Giant Chives (Allium schoenoprasum ssp sibiricum), which is found commonly growing wild in coastal meadows in Northern Norway, was cultivated in this region. Initially it was thought that our mystery onion was maybe a cultivated form of Allium nutans, a species that is known to be grown for food in Russia to the east.
Last summer I heard that the opinion had changed and it was now thought to be a large form of Allium senescens, although there was still some doubt. I was in Southern Sweden last summer and took the opportunity to visit the botanics in Lund where I was told I could see the plant – I had begun to suspect that my plant from Magnar was one and the same. I unfortunately didn’t see the plant, but I noticed in the shop a small Swedish booklet ”Onions on the table” and in the book was our onion which had been named simply ”Norrlandslök” (Northland Onion) (with Allium senescens? written alongside). There is also a description of the plant – a relatively large plant, up to 75 cm tall and it is also sterile. My plant is also sterile! This would also suggest that this indeed was a cultivated onion, long propagated vegetatively. I contacted Lund by email a few weeks ago and sent a few pictures. They replied that they agree that my plant is the same as the Norrlandslök!!
I would appreciate if anyone recognises this plant or can ID it for me – perhaps one of our Russian friends might have seen it as I suspect that it has arrived from the east sometime in the past.
I have several other senescens in my garden, none of which are anything like Norrlandslök. Here are a couple:
The first two are probably Allium senescens senescens:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P4231053_Allium_senescens.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P7263964_Alliumsen.jpg)
Allium senescens ssp montanum is not uncommonly found in Norwegian gardens and is an uncommon wild plant in the south of Sweden and Norway. Mine is only about 20 cm high:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Alliums/P9016129_Allium_senescens_montanum.jpg)
To end with, many a time I’ve dreamed of owning some of the fantastic forms of Allium senescens and nutans shown on Mark McDonough’s site:
http://www.plantbuzz.com/Buzz/PBS/im_Allium%20senescens%20_Blue_Eddy.htm (http://www.plantbuzz.com/Buzz/PBS/im_Allium%20senescens%20_Blue_Eddy.htm)
and in particular his wide-leaved forms of Allium nutans (WOW!!!!):
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/RhizomatousAlliums (http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/RhizomatousAlliums)
What would I do to get my hands on those.….yes, I’m drooling……..not a pretty sight….thanks for listening!
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Your unknown looks rather different from senescens in my eyes. Could it be a hybrid with one of the more commonly cultivated ones like A porrum. If (and I do not know) A.porrum were tetraploid and senescens were diploid, a cross could give an infertile triploid form intermediate between the two.
Unfortunately i know nothing about old cultivated onions. This is all a wild suggestion.
Göte
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Stephen,
I just wanted to say this thread is great. Please keep doing it. The photos seem to be gone. Be careful... posting too many pictures of great looking salads might lead to unexpected lunch guests. Aside from the common culinary onions, our native Allium tricoccum is the only one I consume and grow. I think this will change now.
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The photos seem to be gone.
Just checked that about the photos...... they did take a bit longer than normal to appear, but they did arrive!
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Maggi and Stephen,
I am so happy. I got home and the photos are here. I was using my work computer and perhaps it was the government firewall stopping the pictures. This sort of thing is beyond my limited computer knowledge. By the way if my all seeing employer is out there it was on my lunch that is was viewing this forum, for the record.
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OK, we’ll return to Alliums later. Staying in Scandinavia for the time being, I thought we’d look at two alpine species in the Polygonaceae found in the mountains here, both providing excellent trail snacks when walking in the mountains, which even children like. They have both been used by native peoples throughout their range (circumpolar) as survival food and I think that one of them could even be commercially interesting.
First off is Mountain Sorrel (Oxyria digyna), also known as Alpine Mountiansorrel (North America), Fjellsyre (Norway), Ólafssúra (Iceland), Hapro (Finland), Juopmu (Sami/Lapp), Oxyrie de montagne (France), Alpen-Säuerling (Germany); Banbare (Nepal) and Kyurba (Tibet). As the wide spread of these names geographically suggest this is a common mountain plant throughout much of the Northern Hemisphere, occurring also at low elevations and on the coast in the far north and west, from Ireland, Scotland, Norway and even on the Norwegian arctic islands Bear Island, Jan Mayen as well as in Svalbard (Spitsbergen). It is found in damp places throughout, along rivers and associated with seabird cliffs in the lowlands.
I think it’s quite an attractive plant with its kidney-shaped leaves, and like its relative common sorrel Rumex acetosa, it has pleasant tasting slightly sour leaves, which are excellent in mixed salads. It has been prized by local peoples throughout its range including the high arctic Inuit people who would ate it traditionally raw or cooked in seal oil; in Greenland it was used like stewed Rhubarb, sweetened and with a little potato flour to thicken; the Sami people in Scandinavia also ate it raw, fermented or cooked it with other greens in reindeer milk, the Native Americans in the Rocky Mountains used it in salads and preserved this and other plants by fermentation. It is also found in the Sierra Nevada in California, and is apparently known there as backpacker’s salad. It is also frequently found there around old mining camps and it is not unlikely that miners encouraged (sowed?) and used the plants. It was also even used by locals as far away as Sikkim and Nepal.
A couple of pictures of Oxyria in my garden follow. As you can see it produces a useful amount of leaf
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Oxyria_dig_P5251835.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Oxyria_in_Flower_HPIM4453.jpg)
You can also see Oxyria in the bottom left of this picture. Incidentally, the Meconopsis was “allowed” into my garden as I read that the seeds of some species had been used to produce an edible oil – my planted would probably have yielded one drop for my planned Meconopsis salad dressing….. ;)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Oxyria_Meconopsis_HPIM4726.jpg)
No personal experience here as I’m scared of heights and my grandis died, but apparently the Sherpas in Nepal roast and pickle the seed of Meconopsis grandis! Anybody help out with some grandis seed as I've lost mine?
Any guesses as to the identity of the second alpine Polygonaceae which I'll post about next? People living in the Norwegian mountains have survived famine years thanks to the knowledge of this plant’s edibility! Will post in a day or two…
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First off is Mountain Sorrel (Oxyria digyna), also known as Alpine Mountiansorrel (North America), It is found in damp places throughout, along rivers and associated with seabird cliffs in the lowlands.
this is interesting, i'll have to watch for plants/seeds--i'd especially like to find a far north or high alpine form for a really compact plant..
my reference says it is found in alberta, but they show it as a very narrow strip along the south west--meaning pretty high altitudes, i guess
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Stephen,
Who said the oil is edible?????
I read the quotation in the Taylor book where it says that the properties of the oil are unknown.
I tried to find out and after years, I got the answer that in Sikkim the oils was used for medical purposes to help with problems with the limbs.
I cannot be 100% sure about the identification but since several papaveraceae contain potent alkaloids including the morphia group it seems reasonable.
Meconopsis quintuplinervia is quoted as used in Tibetan medicine and definitely contains an alkaloid of the morphia group.
( 6-methoxy-17-methyl-2, 3-[methylenebis (oxy)]-morphin-5-en-7-one )
You should perhaps be glad that you did not get a lot of oil.
Göte
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Göte
You're quite right of course to warn of the possible hazards of using plants in the Papaveraceae for food and I've added a little warning in my text and a correction to make it clear that I haven't actually eaten them.
Nevertheless, Papaver rhoeas leaves are commonly used in, for example, Italy (I've seen them for sale at the market in Venice) and I guess most of us have eaten Opium poppy seed, which are also pressed for their oil (Poppyseed Oil). There are also numerous older references to other species being used for food in various ways; e.g., P. nudicaule (in Arctic North America) and P. orientale (in Turkey and Armenia - see Useful Plants of East Anatolia, 1991).
The reference to Meconopsis (napaulensis) seed used for an edible oil seems to stem from a Japanese book on edible plants (by Tanaka) in 1976, but I haven't managed to get a copy to check if it has an original reference. Other works on the world's edible plants (Cornucopia II and pfaf.org) list M. napaulensis referring to Tanaka (which could of course just be repeating an error?). However, my other reference to the seeds of M. grandis being roasted and pickled by the Sherpas (and Tamangs) in the mountainous areas of Nepal comes from the authorative work Plants and People of Nepal by Manandhar from 2002. Although also covering traditional medicinal use of plants, Manandhar doesn't give any medicinal uses of Meconopsis, perhaps surprisingly so for such a distinctive plant.
Nevertheless, let me stress, this shouldn't be seen as a recommendation to start eating your Meconopsis.... I didn't really think you would...
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Stephen,
Far too often we run into the problem that people refer to the work of others so the same quotation appears in may places.
I recall an international congress where Mr X gave figures for a material property that were half of those given by others including me. I had not measured myself but quoted original measurements by Mr A.
I asked Mr X about it and he said that he had quoted professor Y . I obtained a copy of Professor Y's publication and found that he was merely quoting the measurements published by Mr A.
However, Professor Y did not understand Swedish so he misunderstood Mr A's publication.
Do you have more details about Tanaka's publication? If at all possible, I would like to try to look deeper into it since Meconopsis is one of my hobby horses..
The poppy you show in the picture is not napaulensis but seems to be one of the two forms of betonicifolia. Taylor refers to the very close relative grandis. Because it is close I would have assumed the oil to have similar properties.
Meconopsis is deer proof. I would be most reluctant to eat any plant the deers dislike so I endorse your non-recommendation.
Interesting topic really
Göte.
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:)
Tanaka, T. 1976. Tanaka's Cyclopaedia of Edible Plants of the World. Keigaku Publishing
Yes, I know the Meconopsis isn't napaulensis (never had much success with the latter, not even surviving one winter from various attempts). It was seed propagated from M. betonicifolia Baileyi..... I also had grandis on the same bed (died after about 6 years).
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Your unknown looks rather different from senescens in my eyes. Could it be a hybrid with one of the more commonly cultivated ones like A porrum. If (and I do not know) A.porrum were tetraploid and senescens were diploid, a cross could give an infertile triploid form intermediate between the two.
Unfortunately i know nothing about old cultivated onions. This is all a wild suggestion.
Göte
Thanks by the way for this. I sent this also to Mark McDonough in the US and he sent an initial reply a few days ago. His initial impression is that it is a form of senescens (or a hybrid). More later if we get any further.
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Sthephen very interesting thread 8)
When reading of the sterility of the A. senescens I thought it might be triploid just as Göte sugested.
It may come from a cross beetewen a tetraploid and a diploid cultivar of A. senescens if such exist so it may not need to be a hybrid even it also can be.
Would not the persons in the botanical department in Lund be able to see if it is a triploid or at least that it has more/less cromosome than "standard A. senescens?
Interesting to hear and I also find it very plausable that it came from the east as You suggested. Would not a question (pm) to our Russian members be appropriate? They seem to have an interest in Allium but might not have seen this thread (yet).
All the best and hope to read more about this
Joakim
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The deers generally avoid strong flavored plants and even herbal plants to a high degree so their liking or not of a plant is not a conclusive evidence. At least ours seem to avoid strong smelled plants so I hope they do not read this and start to eat of our oregano and such.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Stephen
I read this thread with intrest. My favourite bulbs are the Alliaceae.
Do you now http://www.ipk-gatersleben.de/Internet .
This Institute has travelled to the Eastern bloc in the '70 and '80 in the last century, with the task to collect edible plants (culture-forms and wild species).
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Any guesses as to the identity of the second alpine Polygonaceae which I'll post about next? People living in the Norwegian mountains have survived famine years thanks to the knowledge of this plant’s edibility!
Polygonum vivipara? If so, another circumpolar species that occurs in the mountains here too!
(Hi! New here, but by way of introduction, I'll explain that I have trouble resisting resisting plant quizzes... saw an opportunity to burst in! Nice to meet you all!
Lori)
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Sthephen very interesting thread 8)
When reading of the sterility of the A. senescens I thought it might be triploid just as Göte sugested.
It may come from a cross beetewen a tetraploid and a diploid cultivar of A. senescens if such exist so it may not need to be a hybrid even it also can be.
Would not the persons in the botanical department in Lund be able to see if it is a triploid or at least that it has more/less cromosome than "standard A. senescens?
Interesting to hear and I also find it very plausable that it came from the east as You suggested. Would not a question (pm) to our Russian members be appropriate? They seem to have an interest in Allium but might not have seen this thread (yet).
All the best and hope to read more about this
Joakim
A man from Lund, I see (at least part-time)! Interesting suggestion about the tetraploid x diploid cultivar. I've no idea if such exists either. Anyway, I'll collect all the suggestions and pass on to Lund - would be good to solve the mystery after so long.....
Is there a way of pm'ing our Russian members exclusively?
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Is there a way of pm'ing our Russian members exclusively?
Not easily, Stephen , I'm afraid. Since so many folk do not make their locations known and their email address need not necessarily denote a Russian origin, it is hard to pinpoint exactly .... I will send you a list of those I know.
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Stephen
I read this thread with intrest. My favourite bulbs are the Alliaceae.
Do you now http://www.ipk-gatersleben.de/Internet .
This Institute has travelled to the Eastern bloc in the '70 and '80 in the last century, with the task to collect edible plants (culture-forms and wild species).
Hi Onion,
There was little doubt of where you're interest lies! Send me a PM if you are perhaps interested in trading seed of Allium - I have seed of about 50 varieties.
Yes, I know of Gatersleben, but haven't been in touch with them. Do you know someone there specialising on Allium? It would be a good idea to see if they have seen this plant before. Thanks for the reminder!
Stephen
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Any guesses as to the identity of the second alpine Polygonaceae which I'll post about next? People living in the Norwegian mountains have survived famine years thanks to the knowledge of this plant’s edibility!
Polygonum vivipara? If so, another circumpolar species that occurs in the mountains here too!
(Hi! New here, but by way of introduction, I'll explain that I have trouble resisting resisting plant quizzes... saw an opportunity to burst in! Nice to meet you all!
Lori)
Congratulations, Lori, you win our little competition! What a way to enter the forum too, beating the combined knowledge base represented here! Impressive!
Welcome! ;)
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Polygonum viviparum (Alpine Bistort) is another common wild plant here in Norway that I have in the past harvested from the wild, but when circumstances dictated less time to foraging (= children), I introduced it to my garden where it thrives and provides me with a useful crop each year.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Harerug_P6262948.jpg)
As with Mountain Sorrel, this plant is circumpolar with a very similar range, including Northern Britain. In Norway, it is very common particular in the mountains, but is also found in the lowlands.
Typical habitat in mountain grassland (here growing next to a Norwegian walking cabin, possibly also on the roof):
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Harerug_habitat_IMG_0320-1.jpg)
This picture is taken in front of the cabin, seen growing here with flowering Alpine Lady’s Mantle, Alchemilla alpina:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Harerug_alpine_ladys_mantle_IMG_031.jpg)
When my kids were smaller they would enjoy eating the bulbils when we were out walking. The bulbils often sprout whilst still on the plant:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Harerug_HPIM4738.jpg)
Norwegian children have also for generations in the past enjoyed the bulbils which they would either just strip off the flower stalks and eat raw (they have a pleasant nutty flavour) or collect them and then eat them cooked up in milk, and sugar, if they had it.
This plant is not very large and can be anything from 5 to 30 cm tall, but almost the whole plant can be used for food. The bulbils form below the usually sterile white or pink flowers (I’ve never seen a seed) and it often has two forms growing side-by-side, with attractive reddish purple and light brown bulbils.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Harerug_HPIM4736.jpg)
The plant also produces sizeable rhizomes, in good conditions 1-2 cm across. Knowledge of this plant has played an important part in helping people through famine years and saved many lives in some areas. Both the rhizomes and bulbils are rich in carbohydrates and were either cooked in milk or ground into flour. The bulbil flour was also used in Norwegian flatbread instead of rye. Elsewhere, indigenous people throughout the high arctic circumpolar region used this plant’s rhizomes as a staple food. From Siberia and Alaska comes an interesting harvesting strategy. The local mice store tubers/rhizomes/bulbs of this and other species in special caches for later use in the long hard winter. People would raid the mice stores, usually leaving a few tubers or a fish so that at least some mice would survive.....I wonder what you’d think if your stored sack of potatoes suddenly became a sack of fish? Poor mice...
I mostly use the bulbils sprinkled on bread and other savoury dishes like quiche. The picture shows Alpine Bistort bulbils (top left) and Opium poppy (first loaf); Caraway and Evening Primrose (Oenothera biennis) and (last loaf) Plantago major and Sesame.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Caraway_Harerug_HPIM2727.jpg)
They are easy to collect and can be dried in a sunny windowsill. Incidentally, the plant can be found growing on the peninsular in the background (at sea level) together with other mountain plants such as Purple Saxifrage, the earliest flowering plant in spring, as well as Primula scandinavica etc.)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Harerug_harvest_P7203846.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Harerug_drying_P7203859.jpg)
I believe that with some selection effort, Polygonum viviparum could become a nutritious alternative minor crop for marginal agricultural areas. There is a wide genetic variability in this species, and a larger form, which I haven’t seen (ssp. macounii) is recognised, a robust plant with larger leaves. If anyone has that one, I'd love to hear from you!
Incidentally, I have another viviparous Polygonum which is altogether larger than viviparum. I thought initially that it was just a larger form of viviparum, but I recently noticed in Flora of China that there is at least one other viviparous species, and it could possibly be Polygonum suffultoides, but I haven’t keyed it out properly yet. Here it is on the right of the picture with the two colour forms of viviparum. Anyone recognise it?
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/Harerug_P6293175.jpg)
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Is there a way of pm'ing our Russian members exclusively?
Not easily, Stephen , I'm afraid. Since so many folk do not make their locations known and their email address need not necessarily denote a Russian origin, it is hard to pinpoint exactly .... I will send you a list of those I know.
Thanks for the pm!
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Been catching up on Jim McK's blog........ he has an interest in onions, too.... mind you, that chap is a real foodie, so that is no surprise! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/2009/02/scallions-green-onions-spring-onions.html
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Stephen in Gatersleben Dr. habil. PETER HANELT, was the man for the Allium. Her retired in 1995. I will look at the weekend if I can find some literature for you.
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A reliable "onion" for the flower garden or the vegie plot is "Garlic Chives" Allium tuberosum,
[attachthumb=1]
in flower now in the Southern Hemisphere
[attachthumb=2]
cheers
fermi
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Lomatiums - Biscuit Roots or Desert Parsley
Some years ago, I came across an article about a genus of Umbellifers growing in western North America which I hadn’t come across before. That the 80-odd Lomatium species) to be found in western North America had been used as a staple wild collected vegetable didn’t exactly decrease my interest and I set out to try to find seed. Luckily, the NARGS seed list listed several species and those were duly ordered and sowed. I hadn’t really expected a plant going under the name of Desert Parsley to survive the damp cool summer conditions that I could offer, but I’ve had success with 4 of the 10+ species I’ve tried so far. (NB! There is no relationship to the Southern Hemisphere genus Lomatia)
The common names of Desert Parsley and Biscuit Root both are references to the food value of these plants. At least over part of their range, it seems that Lomatiums were equally important nutritionally as fish and game. That it was the Native American women who were responsible for their harvest and the fact that the Lomatium hunt isn’t exactly as exciting TV as the “male” salmon or moose hunt has probably resulted in this being little known!
Why biscuit roots? The roots were usually baked (earth oven) and pounded into a flour, from which a typically 3 ft long biscuit (no, they didn’t use chocolate!) was baked with a hole in the centre so that it could be easily hung on your saddle!
Desert Parsley? The young leaves in the spring were a good source of vitamin C.
Lomatiums aren’t in the short term going to replace parnips and carrots in the vegetable garden as, under ideal conditions, it takes some 4 years to produce a sizable root. Nevertheless, it’s a interesting perennial parsley.
I’ve seen Lomatiums only once in a botanical garden in Europe – L. laevigatum (Slickrock biscuitroot) in the Edinburgh Botanics and a search on this site didn’t turn up more than a couple of brief mentions.
The two I’ve had longest are
L. nudicaule (Barestem Biscuitroot or Pestle Parsnip). This one seems to be happiest as it flowers annually and self-seeds. It’s also quite an attractive plant with its blue-green foliage in spring.
L. utriculatum (Common Lomatium). This has only flowered a couple of times and not for the last few years. I’m not 100% convinced of its identification, so if anyone has an opinion from the pictures I’ll post, please let me know. The epithet utriculatum means small bladders I believe – where are these to be found on the plant?
(I’ve had both since 2004 and they both have a similar range from California to British Columbia)
L. californicum (California Lomatium). This one has gone through one winter so far and is growing quite vigorously (for a Lomatium).
This year I have small plants of L. cous (one of the most important species used for food) and L. foeniculaceum, so I have fingers crossed that they will like what I give them (I add a lot of sand to the soil for good drainage).
I’m always looking for more. If any of you come across other species than those noted here, please let me know…
I’ll post a few pictures of nudicaule, californicum and utriculatum later.
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Now some pictures of Lomatium nudicaule, a long way from home here in mid-Norway. This is the Lomatium that has grown best in my garden. Incidentally, the immature seeds were also used medicinally by Native Americans - chewed for sore throats and colds or made into a herbal tea.
In the second last picture, Salvia sclarea can be seen in the background.
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Lomatium californicum
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Is Lomatium californicum related to flat leaf parsley Stephen?
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Yes, Parsley in general (biannual) and Lomatium (Perennial) are both in the Apiaceae family (Umbellifers) along with some 3,000 other species, but I don't think they're very closely related. But I see the resemblance...
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This is the last batch, showing what I think is Lomatium utriculatum (although the leaves seem to be finer than on pictures I've found on the net):
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This is the last batch, showing what I think is Lomatium utriculatum (although the leaves seem to be finer than on pictures I've found on the net):
Late reply...lol-- Stephen, have you checked Alplains listing? they have some Lomatium and other apiaceae, such as Cymopterus...
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So long ago, I'd forgotten I'd posted these Lomatium pictures ;) No, I hadn't looked at Alplains, so thanks for that! I've only just become aware of Cymopterus as an edible genus - will definitely be putting in an order next winter!
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Edible is a bonus, these plants are just plain cool :)
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It's the salad season - looking for edible flowers in May :P
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It's the salad season - looking for edible flowers in May :P
Will this one do? - very common in most old gardens in this area:
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Nice, another that I have to try to establish here :) I unsuccessfully sowed P veris a couple of years ago, but haven't tried again or any others yet..
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Stephen, i had no idea Oxslip flowers were edible - unfortunately they are almost over here so I'll have to try them next year. Thanks for the reply.