Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: johnw on February 15, 2009, 12:45:12 AM
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As mentioned before, after reading Janis Ruksans' account of Cyclamen kuznetzovii and its superior hardiness I have been chasing it down. Janis mentioned Sahins had it so I wrote to them. Unfortunately all of their stock plants was sold!
As Cyclamen coum is not reliably hardy here I thought this was a very important species to get for Nova Scotia. We have tried Ellen Hornig's hardy strain of coum without long term success. I often wonder how she tested for cold hardiness when she is in the snowbelt of New York State.
With luck I got seed from the Cyclamen Society a couple of months ago. Now this seed may be crossed with tender coums but it is better than nothing, Two seeds of about 30 or more have sprouted in the last month. They are plain green, which is fine by me. Janis mentions his kuznetzovii seed took several years to sprout.
I'm wondering if any forumists are growing kuznetzovii and/or have seen photos of this species' leaves or flowers?
Hopefully pure kuznetzovii will appear in the future.
johnw
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John
I grew it several years ago - the leaves were plain green.
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Janis sells it, this year too - can't you import from him?
I got one last year - leaves are quite drab but there is a pattern. No flowers yet. I haven't challenged it on the hardiness front.
Alex
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As mentioned before, after reading Janis Ruksans' account of Cyclamen kuznetzovii and its superior hardiness I have been chasing it down. Janis mentioned Sahins had it so I wrote to them. Unfortunately all of their stock plants was sold!
As Cyclamen coum is not reliably hardy here I thought this was a very important species to get for Nova Scotia. We have tried Ellen Hornig's hardy strain of coum without long term success. I often wonder how she tested for cold hardiness when she is in the snowbelt of New York State.
With luck I got seed from the Cyclamen Society a couple of months ago. Now this seed may be crossed with tender coums but it is better than nothing, Two seeds of about 30 or more have sprouted in the last month. They are plain green, which is fine by me. Janis mentions his kuznetzovii seed took several years to sprout.
I'm wondering if any forumists are growing kuznetzovii and/or have seen photos of this species' leaves or flowers?
Hopefully pure kuznetzovii will appear in the future.
johnw
Picture of kuznetzowii in wild, background Galanthus plicatus.
Janis
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Sorry, Forget to note that author of pictures is Dmitriy Zubov from Ukraina (he is on third picture here). All maid in nature, in Crimea.
Janis
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John
I grew it several years ago - the leaves were plain green.
Arthur - Thanks for the note. There are no marking yet but we will wait for them.
Alex - We will have to get an permit for Janis and hope a SITES can be issued.
johnw
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Sorry, Forget to note that author of pictures is Dmitriy Zubov from Ukraina (he is on third picture here). All maid in nature, in Crimea.
Janis
Janis - Thanks for the pictures of kuznetzovii, it's a charming one and we hope it will be hardy here.
How long have you grown it outdoors? While your lowest temperature may be lower than here we do get a real winter and it stays cold.
As we have a much wetter climate I wonder if the beech trees keep these kuznetzoviis from becoming too wet. They are fantastic drinkers.
Also good to see G. plicatus growing nearby. We will write to you about placing an order when the permit arrives.
johnw
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I'm not sure Cyclamen kuznetzovii is the most hardy cyclamen. Growing in the beach forests it is protected by mountains from the cold north winds. There are a lot more severe areas on the North macroslope of Caucasus. For example these photos taken 29 Avril while Dmitry's photos - 10 March, almost two month earlier.
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Yuri, I do like your photo of Lagonaki...... such drama in the sky.
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Thank you Yuri. It's fascinating to see clear pics of these cyclamen in the wild.
The coum group is hard to make sense of without the benefit of field observations :-\
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this is the first i have heard of this species, and i'm very interested;
what is the presumed hardiness of this species?
janis, do you have a link to your list?
john, there is a person in calgary (i know she's on alpineL, havent seen her here) growing both coum and hederifolium, i think she'd found them hardy, BUT not sure how many year's she's had them..
she also mentioned C purpurascens as being even hardier, confirmed on cyclamen society website, but i have not found any source for that species..
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Yuri,
As Ashley said, it is great to see this ssp in its natural habitat, great photos!!!
can you give some information about the altitudes?
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About 1900 m
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About 1900 m
beautiful images, yuri!
any idea on maximim low temperatures in this area?
beavercreek greenhouse in british columbia refers to C hederifolium as hardiest, with success in zone 3 alberta gardens, and considers coum similar....
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Yuri - Thanks for the very interesting information, I'll check my records to see if I have any pots of caucasicum growing otherwise I'll search for it. Still I hope kuznetzovii will work here long term.
cohan - I think Beavercreek pulls some zones out of a hat. I planted hederifolium in the early 1970's and they spread all through the yard, even in the lawn and some even sprouted in front of the house vias ants. Many were almost white but the originals were pink. In 1990 we had a very dry cold snowless winter but it never went below -16c and every hederifolium was killed. About 7 years later one huge leaf - as big as Rachmaninov's left hand - emerged from the ground in the vicinity of the oldest bulb. Several years ago I decided to dig it up and of course the spade went straight through corm which was even bigger than the leaf. The half with the newly formed floral stalk survived.
The coums never last more than 2-3 years with me, not even ones from Ellen Hornig in upper NY state and these are reputed to be super hardy selections. She gets lake-effect snow so her Zone 4/5 really doesn't say much about true hardiness.
cilicium and repandum managed maybe a year or so longer than the coums.
As you say europeum, now purpurascens, is rock hardy and have never lost a one save for the ocassional weevil attack.
johnw
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Beautiful images of C kuznetovii ( has it been given specific status or is it a variety of coum ? ), and the view labelled Lagonaki makes you want to book a flight now :D
Ashwood nursery sells kuznetovii, and I include a pic of one I grew from the Cylamen Society seed exchange
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I'm amazed by the price... a real bargin!!!!
Unfortunately Ashwood doesn't export overseas :(
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Thanks again Jo. By the way I nearly fainted when I saw those shots of Cyclamen kuznetzovii at Ashwoods. I immediately reviewed my shots of their RHS booth to make sure I hadn't missed it there.
If any one is going to Ashwood with a truck let me know.
johnw
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If any one is going to Ashwood with a truck let me know.
johnw
Oh dear, you are not inciting us to indulge in ram-raids at Ashwood :o ::) , are you, John? Though, now you mention it....... ::)
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johnw
thanks for the input, john..where did you get purpurascens? i have not found any sources for seed or plants..
i will just have to try a few types and see what happens... unfortunately i dont know anyone in my immediate area growing anything interesting, so i cant ask for tips...lol;
my winter is probably quite a bit colder than yours, and we can have some pretty deep cold before the snow comes, though once it does, it stays pretty well til spring, especially in shadier spots; this year we have lots, though nothing like the amounts they get in some eastern areas; also cold and wet are mostly two different seasons;
i notice beavercreek lists a coum from caucasus--is that the same as caucasicum?
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Hi, all.
I'm in zone 3 (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) and have grown C. purpurascens outdoors since 2004 (seeds from Gardens North - thank you, Kristl!) I've had no success with either C. hederifolium (many tries) or C. coum. Surely C. purpurascens must take the proverbial cake for hardiness? (Needless to say, my plants will never achieve the splendour of those in warmer climes, but I've been impressed that they've come through at least this many winters.)
Keenly interested,
Lori
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Hi, all.
I'm in zone 3 (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) and have grown C. purpurascens outdoors since 2004 (seeds from Gardens North - thank you, Kristl!) I've had no success with either C. hederifolium (many tries) or C. coum. Surely C. purpurascens must take the proverbial cake for hardiness? (Needless to say, my plants will never achieve the splendour of those in warmer climes, but I've been impressed that they've come through at least this many winters.)
Keenly interested,
Lori
Hi Lori,
Your C. purpurascens looks excellent! I would like mines were so free flowering as yours although I am gardening in a warmer climate (than you do).
Gerd
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Lori your Cyclamen purpurascens look really happy in the garden. Nice long petals too cos they can be a bit stubby.
Do they have good drainage and how much shade do they have ?
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Hi, all.
I'm in zone 3 (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) and have grown C. purpurascens outdoors since 2004 (seeds from Gardens North - thank you, Kristl!) I've had no success with either C. hederifolium (many tries) or C. coum. Surely C. purpurascens must take the proverbial cake for hardiness? (Needless to say, my plants will never achieve the splendour of those in warmer climes, but I've been impressed that they've come through at least this many winters.)
Keenly interested,
Lori
Hi Lori,
Your C. purpurascens looks excellent! I would like mines were so free flowering as yours although I am gardening in a warmer climate (than you do).
Gerd
It would seem if you grow enough seed you will get a few with flowers as elegant as repandum.
johnw
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johnw
thanks for the input, john..where did you get purpurascens? i have not found any sources for seed or plants..
i will just have to try a few types and see what happens... unfortunately i dont know anyone in my immediate area growing anything interesting, so i cant ask for tips...lol;
my winter is probably quite a bit colder than yours, and we can have some pretty deep cold before the snow comes, though once it does, it stays pretty well til spring, especially in shadier spots; this year we have lots, though nothing like the amounts they get in some eastern areas; also cold and wet are mostly two different seasons;
i notice beavercreek lists a coum from caucasus--is that the same as caucasicum?
cohan
I get my seed from the Cyclamen Society. If you PM an occasional reminder I will see if I can't get you some purpurascens seeds before the ants do. I can't recall when the seed ripens and t=right now the plants are under 3" of ice so I can't check for pods.
I am informed I have plants in the g'house of coum v caucasicum. Will have to research to find out they are the same as caucasicum. One never knows how pure the seed was and they could be crossed with other regular coums unless collected wild.
johnw
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Well, thank you for the compliments on the C. purpurascens... perhaps they are not quite so inferior as I naturally assumed, LOL!
Jo, due our dry climate here (~16" annual precipitation), it's not so hard to achieve adequate drainage. (Soil quality is vile, admittedly (wretched clay), but even so, with a bit of slope, it's overall quite forgiving... which probably sounds quite insane, but it's true... a surprising number of the less-picky alpines will grow in regular soil here.) Anyway, one plant is in 18" of compost (an old tender rose bed, which also seems to suit lavender quite well - go figure), the other in unimproved clay with bark mulch overtop (and whatever thin leaf mould has collected over the years); both in part shade. (Yes, there is only the two, plus whatever seedlings may have arisen right around them.)
Thank you for the encouragement too re. seeds, Gerd... I'll have to try to beat the ants, for once, and see what results I get!
Does anyone have a direct comparison, for hardiness, between C. purpurascens and C. kuznetovii?
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Well, thank you for the compliments on the C. purpurascens... perhaps they are not quite so inferior as I naturally assumed, LOL!
Does anyone have a direct comparison, for hardiness, between C. purpurascens and C. kuznetovii?
glad to see your input here, lori, though i am disappointed to hear you finally decided the coum and hederifolium have failed :( perhaps i will have to think of them only for pots to be wintered somewhere protected..
i will still keep watching for purpurascens.... i dont understand why its not availalbe in canada if its the hardiest?? is it harder/slower from seed than the others?
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johnw
I get my seed from the Cyclamen Society. If you PM an occasional reminder I will see if I can't get you some purpurascens seeds before the ants do. I can't recall when the seed ripens and t=right now the plants are under 3" of ice so I can't check for pods.
I am informed I have plants in the g'house of coum v caucasicum. Will have to research to find out they are the same as caucasicum. One never knows how pure the seed was and they could be crossed with other regular coums unless collected wild.
johnw
thanks again, john
hope your 3" of ice goes away soon--that sounded like a really dreadful storm! everything here is under probably 18" of snow, less under some trees..it should be settling a bit in next few warmish days, but i dont expect it to be gone anytime soon..
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i notice beavercreek lists a coum from caucasus--is that the same as caucasicum?
Yes. C. caucasicum can be described as C. coum ssp caucasicum or C. vernum ssp caucasicum. But I think its hardiness can vary. Coastal area of south macroslope is in zone 9 while north macroslope at high elevation is in zone 4 or even 3.
Because coastal area is a lot more easy to access, coastal cyclamens are widespread.
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Yuri - Thanks you for the information. Can you recommend specific areas for us to watch for caucasicum seed collections? If too many to list perhaps I could PM you what's available on the next Cyclamen Society list to see if they are from very cold areas, hopefully with little snow cover. Would that be okay?
johnw
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Certainly, it's OK.
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Yuri - I see in my inventory I have these three different types of caucasicum:
Cyclamen coum v. caucasicum (from the CS 1987 but can't seem to locate the seed list for that year to see the collection site)
Cyclamen coum v. caucasicum 'Macka'
Cyclamen coum v. caucasicum 'Urfa'
Might any of these be from a cold area?
johnw
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I think both are areas in Turkey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%A7ka
so not very hardy
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i am disappointed to hear you finally decided the coum and hederifolium have failed
Well, Cohan, it wasn't really a decision on my part... not a single individual of either species ever made it through a winter for me, so it was more of an inescapable conclusion, LOL! I don't think I can, in good conscience, kill any more of those two species!
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In my opinion, drainage is the key. I use leaf compost and sand. I have two Cilicium growing outside(second winter outside), only one coum which does have two flower buds.
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I have just been searching for C.kuznetzovii on the web and my searches brought me 'home'! I got seed of this from the SRGC in January 2006 and the one that has germinated now has four or five buds. I will post a picture when it comes out.
Unusually I don't have the seed number on the back of the label so I don't know if it is garden or wild collected. Does anyone still have a 2005/06 seed list handy to tell me what the number is, please? I have it named as Cyclamen coum kuznetzovii.
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David, your seed was number 1096 and was listed in the garden origin section.
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Thanks, Maggie. I will have to wait and see what it looks like then. Fingers crossed!
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Good to hear about the buds forming.... you won't have to wait too much longer! ;)
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'You won't have to wait much longer' says the attractive Young lady. Only two and a half months but it was worth it. Here is a picture as it is today. Would anyone care to give it a positive id as Cyclamen coum kuznetzovii.
I will take it to Dunblane on Saturday.
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Hmmm, a longer wait than anticipated, David.... though perhaps that's a good thing, what with the awful weather!
It is very pretty.... though what I thought I know about C. kuznetzovii is that the leaves are quite plain.... :-\
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David - In his book Janis says it is important to get seed from isolated kznetzovii to assure that it hasn't crossed with other species, coum I guess.
I too would like to know its distinguishing features other than possible extra hardiness. Mine have sort of stalled this past autumn to present.
johnw
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I too would like to know [Cyclamen kuznetzovii's] distinguishing features other than possible extra hardiness.
Cyclamen coum, sensu latu, seems to have an enormous number of what you might call "ecological variants". This is what you would expect (in hindsight) of a species that inhabits hilly mountainous territory with wide variations in climate from place to place.
I have mentioned it before, but again I point interested folks to an article in the October 1974 issue of the (then) ARGS Bulletin, where Vladimir Vasak of Prague wrote at length about his explorations of Georgia, esp. Abkhazia, in search of these variants, using specific eptithets "abchasicum", "adsharicum", "ponticum", "circassicum", and "vernum". Surprisingly, he didn't even mention "kuznetzovii".
Whether any, some, or all of these variants deserve botanical status is an open question. One of the reasons Christopher Gray-Wilson upgraded Cyclamen purpurascens colchicum (aka "ponticum") to a species in its own right was that taxonomic features distinguish it from the more westerly populations of C. purpurascens, in addition to the distribution of the two forms being widely disjunct. My guess is that these variants of C. coum are really just ecological variants that have evolved in isolated populations, but that is just a guess. Perhaps it's time for the Cyclamen Society to mount expeditions to southern Russia, Abkhazia, Georgia, and the Caucasus in general to try to settle this question.
While I doubt very many botanists would care to distinguish two species on the basis of their hardiness, that quality is certainly important to gardeners. Even if the botanical consensus ultimately rejects these various subtypes of C. coum as good species, it is probably desirable to maintain the distinction for horticultural purposes. Just how you convert a rejected botanical epithet to a horticultural designation I don't know.
Perhaps the botanists can arrange for a re-enactment of some particularly bloody battle on the steppes of southern Russia with the lumpers on one side and the splitters on the other, and may the best man win!
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How hardy will said Cyclamen coum need to be to be deemed hardy?
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David, Rodger, if you look back to the beginning of this thread you will see pictures posted by Janis of Cyclamen kuznetzovii in the wild in the Crimea where it is native.
We had a couple of plants at the Cruickshank Garden grown from seed from Yalta Botanic Garden but I don't know if they are still alive. They were in the greenhouse, not planted outside so I don't know how hardy they would have been.
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How hardy will said Cyclamen coum need to be to be deemed hardy?
Good question Simon. If the winter cold is protracted and with frozen soil coum can get killed at about -16c. If the cold is very brief and the ground unfrozen deeply it can take a brief -20c I'd say. If there is alot of standing water about that turns to ice and the drainage is off too then -15c might kill it here. I bet there are gardeners out there who grow it in extremely cold areas that have reliable snow cover.
I think it was Louise Beebe Wilder who said she couldn't grow it in New York State (Long Island wasn't it) but a friend who she corresponded with described coum as the hardiest species he grew in Ontario, Canada. If we had a coum that could take -23 or -25c with no snow cover it would be very safe here. Having said that it would have to be able to withstand the drainage and ice issues which is too much to ask of any species. So give us a coum that takes -25c with no snow cover and we'd be happy as clams and we'd fix the drainage too.
It will be interesting to hear how coum fared in the UK with and without snow cover this past winter.
johnw
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David's kuznetzovii looks exactly like any other Cyc. coum, to my mind, as do all the other so-called ssp that I've seen. If it's just a matter of relative hardiness, it doesn't matter here as the whole lot are quite hardy, except perhaps, the 'Pewter Group' which loses some leaves in even our small cold. The corms are never damaged though and make more, undamaged leaves later in the season. I'm definitely on the side of the lumpers, and with all other plants too.
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David's kuznetzovii looks exactly like any other Cyc. coum, to my mind.....
And to mine.
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John, the lowest temperatures our Cyclamen coum have had here (when we have known the outside temperature) have been -15C sealed solid to the ground under a rime of frozen rain. After that they received snow cover and fully recovered afterwards. We are lucky that long periods of cold are generally associated with snowfall. There are various populations of Cyclamen coum spread around Bulgaria and we haven't explored them all yet. The ones in the north of the country would normally experience less snowfall and more chilling Siberian winds- but I don't know if this renders them any hardier than the populations found down near the Turkish border. However nothing is certain and the whole country has had an unusual month with more snow and lower temperatures than some areas generally expect.
I must say I agree with Lesley about the differences between some of these new species. Go to any large natural population of C.coum and you will find differences- pick out two extreme examples and call them new species ;)
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Simon - No question my kuznetzovii is at this pioint indistinguisable from any other coum here. I guess the solution is to find one adaptable to the strange climate here.
Presently a lovely day around 5c and sunny but the ground is frozen solid and snow is forecast for tomorrow.
johnw
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Simon - No question my kuznetzovii is at this pioint indistinguisable from any other coum here. I guess the solution is to find one adaptable to the strange climate here.
Presently a lovely day around 5c and sunny but the ground is frozen solid and snow is forecast for tomorrow.
johnw
Leaves are something variable but generally less mottled than in other coums. The difference is (by Dima Zubov) in the surface of tuber - in one of them it is smooth, in another rough, but I not remember in which. Unfortunately Cyclamens didn't belong to my favourite plants in Soviet time and then I didn't checked local floras in Russian for this genus and haven't notes about this. There were no greenhouses allowed in private garden under communist regime and Cyclamens were too risky plant for outside.
Janis
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....... There were no greenhouses allowed in private garden under communist regime ......
WHY ???
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Simon - No question my kuznetzovii is at this pioint indistinguisable from any other coum here. I guess the solution is to find one adaptable to the strange climate here.
Presently a lovely day around 5c and sunny but the ground is frozen solid and snow is forecast for tomorrow.
johnw
Leaves are something variable but generally less mottled than in other coums. The difference is (by Dima Zubov) in the surface of tuber - in one of them it is smooth, in another rough, but I not remember in which. Unfortunately Cyclamens didn't belong to my favourite plants in Soviet time and then I didn't checked local floras in Russian for this genus and haven't notes about this. There were no greenhouses allowed in private garden under communist regime and Cyclamens were too risky plant for outside.
Janis
Janis - I got 5 seeds from the Cyclamen Society labelled Russian form, dark nose. Only one sprouted and it's tuber looks like the other coums here so far but the leaves - unlike all the others - died down completely in early winter - I can only hope it deciduousness means it's a bit hardier!
Unfortunately I can't see the CS kuznetzovii ones as they are too deep in the pot.
johnw
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Hallo John, here are two years old seedlings of Cyclamen kusnetzovii. Cheers Igor
As mentioned before, after reading Janis Ruksans' account of Cyclamen kuznetzovii and its superior hardiness I have been chasing it down. Janis mentioned Sahins had it so I wrote to them. Unfortunately all of their stock plants was sold!
As Cyclamen coum is not reliably hardy here I thought this was a very important species to get for Nova Scotia. We have tried Ellen Hornig's hardy strain of coum without long term success. I often wonder how she tested for cold hardiness when she is in the snowbelt of New York State.
With luck I got seed from the Cyclamen Society a couple of months ago. Now this seed may be crossed with tender coums but it is better than nothing, Two seeds of about 30 or more have sprouted in the last month. They are plain green, which is fine by me. Janis mentions his kuznetzovii seed took several years to sprout.
I'm wondering if any forumists are growing kuznetzovii and/or have seen photos of this species' leaves or flowers?
Hopefully pure kuznetzovii will appear in the future.
johnw
[/quote
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....... There were no greenhouses allowed in private garden under communist regime ......
WHY ???
Very simply - hard working you can grow more than you need, you can sell surplus and you will be independent from government's paid minor salary, so you will feel free... No more comments. When we fought for freedom of Latvia from Russian occupation - I asked myself - can I stay on side? I was journalist, editor of newspaper, but I was growing bulbs and selling them half-legally, getting more money than my official salary. So I decided to take part in revolution and was one of the leaders. Many journalists did this, but I was in better position. Fired from my job I wouldn't stay without money for family, contrary to those journalists who hadn't another occupation. In USSR people fired from job for political reasons couldn't find any job more. My wife was fired from her job just for political reasons but fortunately she found a good Dirrector of collective farm who accepted her regardless of Communist Party order not to give her job anywhere. IT WAS HORRIBLE SYSTEM.
Janis