Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Diane Whitehead on February 13, 2009, 12:30:09 AM
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I've just frozen my fingers photographing some yellowish elwesii
in an old garden. All are unnamed seedlings.
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Diane I would have liked larger photos. I havent seen a yellow/yellowish elwesii
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I've just frozen my fingers photographing some yellowish elwesii
in an old garden. All are unnamed seedlings.
Those look very exciting, Diane. Looks like you've photographed different clumps with varying degrees of yellowness to the markings and ovaries, am I right? Not easy to see the intensity of the markings on all the clumps, but some at least look as good as if not better than 'Carolyn Elwes' and possibly more vigorous. That's an amazing find. Some of the clumps really do look like they have good yellow colouring but also seem very sturdy and vigorous with good fat flowers. Congratulations!
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Diane, would it be possible for you to get some more photos when the flowers are wider open and the marks showing better on all the clumps? As Mark says, posting the pics bigger would also help so we can get a better look at them. Some close-ups would be lovely too. Sorry to be so demanding, but they do look like a very special discovery.
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Yes, each picture is of a different clump, and they are not close to each
other.
There were probably more, but my feet and fingers were too cold to keep
on looking for more. The sun came out for a few minutes, but not long
enough to open the flowers. If the sun ever comes out, I will drive over
and take some more photos.
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Sorry again, Diane, to sound so demanding, asking for more photos, but it would be great to see the various clumps with the flowers more open and perhaps some close-ups. When you go back, could you perhaps pick a flower from each clump and take them home to open up indoors in water, so you can take some close-ups of them wide open? Might save you freezing to death waiting for them to open outside. :)
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I would also suggest marking the clumps that you think are the best while they're in flower. It's so easy to forget which are which once flowering is over. I assume you'll be asking if you can have some bulbs from the best (yellowest) clumps, so make sure you can identify the best ones later. If there's one thing I've learned about snowdrops over the years, it's don't rely purely on memory. ;D
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A friend was photographing at the same time, though I don't think we
photographed the same clumps. (The garden is several acres, and the
photo shows only one small area of it.)
Here are some of her photos.
Mark has turned the sideways ones right-side-up, so I'll delete them here.
They are on page two.
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Diane - I just dragged one of your posted wrong way photos to the desktop where it became an icon. Then dragged the icon to iPhoto and it automatically righted it in Events. Don't ask me how.
Another great find those yellows. Keep sleuthing.
johnw
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She's sent me another. Let's hope it's upright.
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Diane - I am chuckling away here at your comments while trying to turn the pictures. ;D
That last picture is wonderful - if it is really that yellow in real life it is a wonderful find indeed. When I saw 'Carolyn Elwes' in the flesh (the flower!) I wasn't overly impressed - don't get me wrong - I would still like to grow it - but that last picture looks so much better than my memory of C. E.
When you bow to Martin's demands (he does sound excited ;D) make sure you wear some extra thick wooly socks and take a flask of hot drink!
Regards
John
p.s. all the photos and clumps are great and look good plants - but that last one! hmmmmmmmm. :P
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It would seem helpful to have some known yellows to put in the same
photo with a yellowish snowdrop - similar to dropping a coin beside
something to show comparative size. Maybe a lemon, a grapefruit and
a banana.
A New Zealander suggested a way a group of us hellebore-growers could
describe flower colours so that everyone would know what we meant - a
cheap international version of the RHS colour chart. She suggested using
Faber-Castell coloured pencils which are sold worldwide.
I would have to colour a good-sized piece of paper to stand beside the
snowdrop, and the intensity of colour would depend upon how hard I
pressed on the pencil.
One of those paint samples with a range of yellows would be perfect. Easy
to use, and just the right size. I doubt that there are international brands
of paint though. Maybe I could mail you each one of the paint samples we
have here.
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Nobody else has commented but, yellow or not, that is an amazingly large swathe of elwesii (if they are all elwesii). I cannot think of anywhere in England where there are so many en-masse. I say England because I have never ventured into the rest of the UK or Ireland at snowdrop time. Please correct me if I an wrong (and I will try to visit the site if somebody can tell me of one).
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There are thousands, and yes, they are all elwesii which are the
commonest snowdrops grown here.
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There are thousands, and yes, they are all elwesii which are the
commonest snowdrops grown here.
They would seem to grow much better in your part of B.C. than they do in the UK. Well either that, or they were originally imported in much larger numbers. Do you think they multiply mostly by seed or by division? And what grows in the summer where your elwesii are growing now?
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Meadow grass for most of the site, in among the oak trees. I'm not sure
how often it is mowed. The parts along the verge are not. It will not be
watered in summer, and we rarely get rain between May and October.
There are also big clumps among snowberries and Mahonia, two of our native
creeping shrubs, also clumps on rocky areas and on the face of a cliff where
they have either seeded or bulbs have fallen down.
There are lots of camas as well (Camassia).
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Diane, you must have the Midas touch? 8)
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much better turned around
I suggest you take these into cultivation, see what they do next year and start supplying - to forum members first ;D
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I don't know I go to bed early and there is all this excitement I have missed, that yel6 is stunning Diane, I can see you will be making lots of new friends! What a wonderful site, I'd love to see it in the flesh so to speak :-\ I'll just have to make do with the Gala!
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The clump in pic Galanthus-elwesii 1 jpg in your first posting looks the brightest yellow to me, maybe because the flowers are open. Galanthus-elwesii 3 jpg looks like a very strong grower with a good bold flower when fully open. Can't see the mark, but pale ovary.
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They look great,and so many of them!
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One of those paint samples with a range of yellows would be perfect. Easy
to use, and just the right size. I doubt that there are international brands
of paint though. Maybe I could mail you each one of the paint samples we
have here.
That would be a good idea - othewise, how about some yellow 'M & M Sweets'? Would these not be the same colour yellow there as here?
John
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Diane,
Many thanks for sharing these snowdrops with us. They are truly wonderful; as well as the colour they are simply excellently sized and shaped snowdrops, really beautiful.
Many thanks and hope your poor fingers recover quickly. Paddy
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It would seem helpful to have some known yellows to put in the same
photo with a yellowish snowdrop - similar to dropping a coin beside
something to show comparative size.
Hi Diane
today I have been thinking about this problem quite a lot - I was comparing your 'yellowish' elwesii on a few different computer screens and there was a definite difference. I then printed some of the pictures on different printers and found even more difference depending which ink cartridges had been used. :-\
So after doing some internet searching it seems we are not the only ones with a problem comparing colours internationally. The best solution it seems is something called the 'pantone colour charts'. The cheapest one I could find is about £60! :o
I really do think it would be a useful exercise next year for some of us to post pictures of some of the more unusual drops with a way to compare the colour - but even though pantone seems the best way I don't think it is a financially viable option. For example, the various posts this year about Ecuson d'or being varying shades of yellow to lime green would be easier with a definite comparison.
Does anyone else think this could be an intersting and useful exercise? Can anyone think of a cheaper route than the pantone one?
Looking forward to hearing your views, many thanks
John
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You could all send one of each of your bulbs here and the BD and I could give you a considered comparative opinion.......... ;D
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I found a paint sample that matches some of the snowdrops. I will
be sending some over to a Forumist who said he would distribute them.
I hope I've matched up the group/paint picture with the close-up from
that group.
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They really are lovely, Diane. The clone in pics 1 and 2 with the solid yellow inner mark is especially elegant and shapely.
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So that's how you get the yellow ones, I'll have to get my paint out too!
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;D ;D ;D Don't say that. Maggi will have them painted purple! ::)
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Here is the other colour-standard possibility. I thought maybe a
grapefruit would be a match, but my grapefruit changed colour over
a week - they became quite pink.
My friend photographed a clump with a lemon which is a lot more
yellow than the snowdrop.
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My friend photographed a clump with a lemon which is a lot more
yellow than the snowdrop.
Diane, the snowdrop still looks fairly yellow even by comparison with the bright yellow of the lemon. Have you tried collecting pollen from that one and the one with the solid yellow inner mark? It could be very useful for breeding purposes and no-one could complain about you taking pollen.
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Yes, we managed to get pollen from some of the yellowish ones yesterday.
The wind was blowing fairly strongly though, and I didn't end up with as much
pollen as I started with.
I put my lot on any pocs I have open.
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The wind was blowing fairly strongly though, and I didn't end up with as much
pollen as I started with.
Do you now have some blond yellow highlights in your hair Diane? ;D
Good luck getting the pocs to develop seed pods this year. I remember you had problems when using the pollen from Wendy's Gold. Hopefully the fact that these are the same species as you pocs may mean they are more receptive to it? ? ?
I think they still look yellow even with the lemon too. When you compare them to Carolyn Elwes which is the only 'yellow' one I have ever seen it looks like your yellow gene pool could be much healthier. (Steve has helpfully posted some pictures of Carolyn Elwes here here (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2604.msg76480#msg76480) for comparison.
Like Martin has implied - solid marks are my preference on Elwesii too.
Regards
John
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My friend photographed a clump with a lemon which is a lot more
yellow than the snowdrop.
The snowdrop is Sunkist too! ;D
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The snowdrop is Sunkist too! ;D
Actually, she thinks sunshine has something to do with it. She noticed the
sides facing the sun are yellower than the shaded sides - not just on this one
clump, but others too.
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Actually, she thinks sunshine has something to do with it. She noticed the
sides facing the sun are yellower than the shaded sides - not just on this one
clump, but others too.
we find this in the yellow tipped/ ovary Leucojum .....sunny side is yellower ???
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And it is not as though we get much winter sunshine - we're not like
Japan or Phoenix, and the few sunny days we get are not very bright,
though our days are longer than those of Scotland.
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I put mixed pollen from the yellowish elwesii on 9 flowers in the pot
of several elwesii pocs and one pod has set.
I put yellow nivalis pollen (frozen since last year) on 4 flowers, but
no pod has set.
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The sun was out yesterday so a friend and I went to the garden with lots
of yellowish elwesii, to collect pollen and take pictures.
We were dismayed to find no yellows. One of the best clumps was still
in tight bud, but other clumps that were open weren't yellow. What could
have happened? I didn't bother to collect pollen, but did take some photos
so I could compare them with the ones from last year. I've just done
that, and found to my surprise that I took last year's pictures exactly one
month later than this year's. Could that make a difference?
Here is a photo from last February 19, to compare to the same clump
yesterday.
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Hi Diane. How strange. :-\
I seem to remember from last year that your friend noticed that the side facing the sun was 'more yellow' on many of the snowdrops. You do realise that this means we shall be forcing encouraging you to go back there in a months time to see if the colour has changed! ;D
I have used one of the 'paint cards' you posted to me for comparison next to the plicatus 'Bill Clark' that is in flower here at the moment. The match that you got with the yellow elwesii for the colour swatch called 'D28 Star Fruit' is almost a perfect match with Bill Clark too.
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Last year was a bad winter for us. There were several cold spells,
and this could have made the snowdrops flower later, when the
days are longer. Perhaps the extra light could have altered the usual
colour, or conversely, this year could be earlier than normal so that
the snowdrops are greener than usual.
If I hadn't been using a digital camera that records the date, I would
not have realized I'm a month early this year.
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My 'Bill Clark' is just above the soil.
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My 'Bill Clark' is just above the soil.
I have two lots of it Anthony - the ones in the ground is only just above the soil - these are in a pot (and were really close to the others) but are weeks ahead for some reason. :-\
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I too often find that pot-grown snowdrops flower ahead of their soil-grown clones.
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A singleton, growing on a rock. Is it pale because it is starved?
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It does have a rather pale and wan look about it.
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I am intrigued, Diane, by the fact that both this singleton and the clump are by rocks. Is there something in the soil that is causing this? Have you had seed from them and grown them at home and, if so, do they exhibit the same colour? There is something very appealing in your photo of the lonely snowdrop on the rock!
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There are quite a few outcroppings of bedrock, and oak trees
dropping leaves every year. Our soils are acidic because of
the winter rain washing out nutrients.
Spring-blooming wildflowers like Dodecatheon and Olsynium
often grow in moss in the thin soil layer of bedrock. It all
dries out thoroughly from June to October and turns green
again when the rains start.
This wan snowdrop is from a seed dropped from the clumps
growing in deeper soil between the rock outcroppings. I hope
it produces some seeds that I can collect.
I am growing lots of seedlings, but none are old enough to
flower yet.
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Friends and I have just been to visit the snowdrops again, and all the yellowish
ones have been dug out. Whoever it was wasn't very neat about it, and unwanted
green ones were left with their roots in the air. I tucked them back into the soil.
I'm glad I managed to get seeds in previous years and now just have to be patient
till they bloom.
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That's unfortunate, Diane. I hope you weren't too upset by it. As you say, you have the seedlings coming on, so that's something.
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This year in that garden, there were no yellow flowers, but a couple of plants
with yellow blotched leaves which I haven't seen in previous years.
The area beside them is clear of snowdrops, but thick with oak leaves.
I wonder if the leaves may have been covered with leaves when they were
emerging. If so, they should green up.
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Diane, the poculiform elwesii seeds you sent me a couple of years ago are flowering and looking normal, but I'm going to cross them all together to see if anything turns up in the next generation.
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They were green-tipped pocs and just look ordinary? That's disappointing.
Mine are still single-leaved so it will be a couple of years before I see the flowers.
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That's the luck of the draw - the genes are in there somewhere, just got to get them out!
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Diane - How awful. Are you saying all those yellow elwesiis were stolen? Were you not able to get a few of them yourself before the theft? It's not as if everyone out there has an eye for these things and that is doubly disturbing. Well at least you got the pollen.
johnw
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Yes, every single one, from all over that large property. And no, I asked the owner
for permission a couple of years ago, but then didn't dig one because I thought the
staff and customers would think I was stealing.
I did get pollen, and some seeds.
There are still green-tips and pocs. Just the yellowish ones were taken.
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Diane, it wasn't the property owner deciding to move the yellows somewhere else for safe-keeping?
If I find an interesting and unusual snowdrop I feel I have a duty to try to rescue it and look after it myself. Although my own garden is by no means free from dangers, it's still a lot safer then the 'wild' where snowdrops frequently get damaged because people disregard them in season and completely forget about them when dormant. Plus I think a large mass of snowdrops can be a highly competitive environment where only the fittest and/or the luckiest survive.
I always first gain permission to remove a snowdrop and if there are enough of the same type then I leave some behind so as not to adversely affect the gene pool. But I will explain to anyone who might challenge me that I have permission. If there were a gardener I would invite them to come along and oversee the operation. Gardeners are usually happy to talk with someone who has specialist knowledge of one of the plants in their care.
I know it's too late in this instance but that's my philosophy on the issue. I should probably mention that snowdrops are not native to the UK so they are not wild flowers here.
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Diane - That is sickening. Let's hope the genes are still hiding there.
And good point Alan! After many years of searching for the white rhodora I found 3 big plants in an industrial park bog on the edge of a city park. I grabbed a botany professeur friend and dragged him off to the site. It was a dicey situation, the site straddled the park and a school playground just 15ft away, mind you we had to crawl under the school fence to get at the plants. After much deliberation we decided to lift 2/3s of each plant and leave the rest for the gene pool. The plants survived but when we went back the next year the city had drained that very same small spot, infilled with gravel, paved it and made a tennis court. Lesson learned.
Ten years later a boardwalk was erected through the bog and I took a walk through, there were white rhodoras here and there, maybe 8-10 plants in all.
johnw
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just found this thread :
I just bought a few pots of straight elwesii from an online seller and out of the 10 or so there was one that showed pretty clear yellow inner markings similar to the ones posted here.
The ovary looked more green /olive but very similar indeed.
Unfortunatley the bulb was heavily rotted and the flower fell to pieces so not a happy ending -- refund on way and one possible offset that might make it.
Im guessing buying bulk of elwesii bulbs in dormant season would possibly give some intresting results as it looks as if a second yellow elwessi is out there in circulation.
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People have been bulk-buying elwesiis for decades without finding yellows (with one or two exceptions). I don't think yellow is in the gene pool of any elwesii sources used in the past but they might start digging them up from elsewhere so who knows what could happen in future.
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So far, all of the seedlings I've grown that have bloomed have been perfectly ordinary.
My friends and I went to the original acreage this week to see if there might be
interesting ones coming up near the places where the yellows were dug. No.
However the ones with bright yellow blotches on the leaves have them again. I posted
a picture of them on Reply #50.
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Here is a picture of a virus-infected woronowii taken immediately before I dug it up and disposed of it. Of course I only presume that this is a virus but I know it did not look like that in previous years and I don't want to take the risk of it spreading. It seems to me the the yellow marks on those elwesii leaves are quite likely to be caused by a virus so do be careful in case it is easily transmitted.
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