Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => General Forum => Topic started by: dominique on February 09, 2009, 04:48:15 PM
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I cannot forget the difficulties and dramas about the forest fires in Autralia these days. I hope all the courage necessary at all the australian people of the forum and in this country in front of this horrible tragedy
Dom
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Dominique I was thinking the same earlier. My Geography isnt good but I know Paul, Otto and Fermi and in the south east
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I had a email from Fermi this afternoon that I didnt notice, The end reads
P.S. Thank you for all messages of concern about our safety due to the Bushfires on the Weekend, our house was safely out of reach of the fires but the area is devastated and it’s not yet the end of the fire season.
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I've been worried too. I hope things get no worse.
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I have a horrible feeling that some of these fires are too close to Otto and Tim, too.
Seems so cruel that other areas of that huge country are suffering bad floods while these fires rage.
Very frightening indeed and best wishes to them all.
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Good to know Fermi is okay and hope Otto and Tim are too. Those fires are so destructive and the deaths heartbreaking
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I was thinking of this driving home and listening to the news. Let us all hope that the conditions which are making this situation so horrific will change soon
Best wishes to all our friends down under
Ian
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I have heard they have arrested two arsonists. Mass murderers, and should be treated as such. >:( I cannot imagine what goes through these people's minds, just as I cannot imagine what it is like to be in the middle of this tragedy. So many lives lost, and so many more who have lost everything dear to them.
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Email from Fermi this morning said the fires near him have flared up again but seem under control. He hoped he could get home from work though, through road blocks.
Tim and Otto are fine too but again, fires very close. We had a map in our paper yesterday with the areas marked and Fermi's address was one of them. I hadn't realized the fires were so very close to Melbourne in many cases.
Our sky here in NZ is coloured a muddy grey-brown by smoke which is blowing across the Tasman sea.
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Nasa photo
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=36976 (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=36976)
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It is good to know that all our friends in Australia are well !
best wishes for all from Germany
Hans
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We are certainly very anxious to know how our family and friends are faring in the face of the fires north of Melbourne. I am relieved that Tim Otto and Fermi are fine in the face of the devastation that is unfolding on our TV news nightly. I have nephew who lives north of Melbourne and I presume he is safe as well.
By coincidence we were hosting some guests from Adelaide on Sunday evening: it was a strange sort of a day here with the temperature over 30 degrees, overcast, and as Lesley said, the sky all smoky so the sun in the evening was quite orange. I am pleased that we received a good rain here yesterday and hope our Australian friends may soon have the benefit of the same.
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We all are thinking about Australian people, and we hope fires will be stopped ASAP.
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Talk on the radio now is that dugouts should be compulsory in fire prone areas. A young couple and their baby survived due to a small room built behind a cement rainwatertank and the natural slope of the land - this saved them. The wife had nagged her husband to put it in.
Pat
No decent rains in view - all seems up north.
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I am glad to hear forum members of Australia a well so far.
Best wishes, Hans
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Another family with youngsters survived by crawling into a concrete culvert with water in the bottom. The fire came in so they rolled around in the water - and survived.
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While we all see the news and express horror at what is happening in Australia it takes the fraternity of the forum to make it so much more personal.
I will watch the news with a very different perspective as a result.
My hopes for the very best outcome to all who are affected.
JohnnyD.
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I can only agree with what has been already said - better than I could
Göte
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When I watch newsclips of the fire I now do it with the sound off. It is heartrendering to hear the distress of the survivors. I send my sympathy and love to all who have been involved in these fires.
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It is just horrible!
I hope it all will be over soon and best wishes to all from Israel.
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I'm resurrecting this topic just as we enter the "fire season" here in Southern Australia to show the Forum some pics of the area I drive through each day to get to work.
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Tomorrow is the nine month mark from that tragic day in February and much of the burned out area is only slowly returning to life.
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It was very disappointing to see the amount of weed growth in the early spring but now native plants are making a comeback.
In the last week we'd noticed a haze of mauve/purple
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on the roadside in the burned out areas and realised it was the native "Nodding Chocolate Lily" (Arthropodium fimbriatum)
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growing along with "Milkmaids" (Burchardia umbellata)
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and rice-flower , possibly Pimelea glauca
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The eucalypt forests have evolved to cope with fire and this can be seen in the way they regenerate from epicormic buds under the bark.
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It's also good to see the acacias regenerating as none were visible after the fire and there were no flowers this spring
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cheers
fermi
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It is incredible what can survive the heat and devastation we saw back in February. Some of these will be regenerated root systems no doubt and other will be from seed which survived the fires. One can only marvel at how persistent nature is and determined to live through the worst tragedies. A great pity the affected families could not also regenerate.
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Great pics, Fermi.
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A ray of sunshine to see these plants sprouting and flowering after the fire devastation Fermi, thanks for sharing your optimism after the tragic events las Spring in your area :)
All the stories of how people adapted to the emergency situations are incredible too - the human spirit is tenacious, like plants, and adaptable to the forces of Nature in our desire to live - maybe we are not so different as we think ::)
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I always wandered how long it would take for the ground to green up and plants to take a hold again. When you see these fires on the television it scares me so much. I have a forrest two feet behind my house, I sometimes see lots of kids going through and when I see them smoking it does worry me. I cant imagine what it must be like watching your home and all your belongs being lost forever.
Its nice that you took these photos to let us over here see what happens after those horrific fires.
Angie
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Thanks for showing this Fermi !
Amazing to see how nature regains it's rights !!!
And so quickly !
Would love to see some more pictures in two years time or so.. :D
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It's amazing how life regenerates, but the Australian flora has evolved to cope. I remember reading the instructions on a packet of acacia seeds: " loosely wrap in newspaper and set alight; remove the seeds from the ashes and sow in gritty compost". Not just Australian flora. Lodge pole pine cones from North America don't open until fire rips through the forest. The resulting seedlings grow very quickly. Here in Scotland fire is used to regenerate heather moors on a controlled basis.
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Anthony,
I saw the heather moors on a program recently.... the grousse shooting keeps the moors alive because the grouse can't survive without the moors so money from grousse shooting goes to the moors upkeep. So the moors wouldn't survive without the grousse now, as the grousse can't survive without the moors. Sort of poetic (although a little sad). They were showing the patchwork effects they used with fire there so that there was old, new and regrown patches, each of which served a purpose for the wildlife inhabitants. Fascinating stuff, but somewhat off the Aussie topic. Sorry for my digression.
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No problem Paul. Management of the grouse moors alas prevents regeneration of the Caledonian forest which used to cover Scotland. It has also created the problem of a huge increase in the red deer population and no top predator. There is very little 'natural' Scotland left. Even the large oak woods on the eastern side of Loch Lomond were planted, for charcoal, and never used because one A. Darby had pioneered the use of coke in the making of steel (1709). You could say that Mr Darby (not a relative) started the Industrial Revolution?
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great to see the regeneration, fermi, thanks for sharing...
are the eucalypts alone in regenerating (if i am reading that right) standing trees? are most tree species there killed outright by such fires?
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South African Protaceae also need fire or at least smoke to trigger germination. Terry Hatch near Auckland has done a lot of work using a smokehouse such as is used for fish or smaller meat pieces, to research what smoke can be useful for. Some interesting results I believe.
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Cohan I went to a talk on Eucalypts by a young guy who has done much work on the different species and has a wonderful collection down south of Adelaide. Eucalypts of South Australia by Dean Nicolle.ISBN 0-646-32743-7. Or contact Dean at 156 Pimpala Road, Morphett Vale South Australia 5162 for a copy as he was self publishing it. Around $20-30 Aust. It was then that I learnt about the different groups that Eucalypts are divided into. Most seem to regenerate from the trunk but then there are others which are killed outright. Some make great rounds like a mushroom - regenerating from the roots.
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Cohan I went to a talk on Eucalypts by a young guy who has done much work on the different species and has a wonderful collection down south of Adelaide. Eucalypts of South Australia by Dean Nicolle.ISBN 0-646-32743-7. Or contact Dean at 156 Pimpala Road, Morphett Vale South Australia 5162 for a copy as he was self publishing it. Around $20-30 Aust. It was then that I learnt about the different groups that Eucalypts are divided into. Most seem to regenerate from the trunk but then there are others which are killed outright. Some make great rounds like a mushroom - regenerating from the roots.
a fairy circle of eucalyptus :)
i recall a south african seed vendor (dont recall which) which sold a pouch or packet of some substance which was used to provide the chemicals that smoke would provide, to seed before sowing..supposed to be very useful for many...
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Cohan,
You can buy "liquid smoke" here as well (I think that is the name), for the purpose of germinating Aussie native seeds that need smoke treatment.
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Cohan,
You can buy "liquid smoke" here as well (I think that is the name), for the purpose of germinating Aussie native seeds that need smoke treatment.
neat stuff! i havent heard of any of our natives that need that (doesnt mean they dont exist) i know there are pines that germinate after fire, but i think thats physical--heat to open the cones!
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Volume 63-2 of the NARGS Rock Garden Quarterly had a very interesting article on smoke treatment to improve (or allow) germination of North American species.
The author, Michael Young, said that the effectiveness of the treatment was known from South African and Australian species, and he noted the same in comparably fire-prone areas, e.g. Spain, California, and "the intermountain and Great Basin grasslands". By extension, one would wonder if the same is not likely true for species in the Great Plains, the Rockies (and the boreal forest?)... which is hypothesis put forth in the article. It concluded by saying that more people needed to do more testing, but that positive results were seen in some species of Argemone, Monardella, Eriogonum, Chaenactis, Festuca, Penstemon, Salvia...
Yes, Liquid Smoke(insert little trademark symbol here :)) is available here too... for imparting a smokey taste to foods... but apparently contains enough of the "real thing" to be effective for seed starting.
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Cohan,
Fire is such a big part of our ecosystem that it really has become a necessity for many of our native plants, in many cases to open the cones so that seed can be shed, then the ash is in the soil for them. Fire clears out the cover so that there is light and less competition, the perfect situarion for seeds to germinate. That's why they are triggered so heavily by it..... get in quick so that you can take over the available space. 8)
Bear in mind that things like the Eucalypts shed bark in strips which helps fires burn, and they put out volatile oils that mean many of the trees go up like a torch when fire hits them. Our forests aid the fires, not work against them. ;D
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lori--it certainly wouldnt surprise me--fire is certainly no stranger in NA west;
i would guess parts of california might be especially adapted to that kind of pattern, since brush fires are so typical there..
i havent come across any species in seedlists that seem to germinate only after fires, but maybe its more an enhancement than a necessity... have you encountered any species in those genera resistant to 'normal' germination?
hard to tell up here, with the environment so altered, but the mixed forest here, with lots of aspen and willow, birch etc, is not so flammable as areas with more exclusive conifers; apparently, before european settlement (which, remember is quite recent--in this area, in the 1900's) native groups set fires in this area to extend the prairie grasslands (and therefor bison range) into this naturally forested area... certainly nothing that grows regularly around here could wait for fire to germinate, but there are definitely species that take advantage of sudden clearings, by fire or blow down, and those that benefit from clearing undergrowth, dead grass and leaves etc; our most mature forest type in this area--solid spruce--has a much lower species count than most of the transitionary phases..
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Cohan,
Think that many thigns would eventually germinate without the fire (if the seed survived long enough), but the germination would be sporadic I would think. The fire treatment breaks the germination inhibitorsapparently, getting the germination process off to a flying start.
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Cohan, I have failed to germinate a goodly number of species... but I wouldn't necessarily conclude that it was for lack of smoke treatment, LOL! (I admit I don't have the discipline, or interest, even, to do controlled experiments, which is what would be required to prove that smoke treatment is essential or beneficial. In Deno's opinion, this seems to include even involve quantifying the giberellin effect in the soil... much more than I have the tools to do. ;))
The article is only 3 pages and doesn't seem to intend to list all species requiring or benefiting from smoke for germination... It says, "By the early 1990's, botanists working in fire-prone landscapes in South Africa and Australia recognized that smoke improved germination for many species. The effect also applies to plants from comparable habitats in Spain, California, and the intermountain and Great Basin grasslands of North America. Frequently, exposure to smoke not only increases the rate or amount of germination, but it is the sole treatment that breaks dormancy in these species." Unfortunately, it does not list references. Is it true about the "sole" treatment? I don't know... but no one seemed to jump on it in later issues, so I assume it is accepted.
An aside.... I dunno, I'd find it pretty hard to believe that aboriginal people - ekeing out bare survival in small bands across the northern half of North America, mostly nomadic and outdoors through all seasons; hunting with primitive weapons and gathering plant material (and probably starving, frequently, as well as dehydrated); getting around on foot or with the help of dogs or through the last snippet of time, with a few horses, and living to what, maybe 30 years of age, if lucky? - had a large enough sphere of vision to worry about the natural succession of grasslands edges and meadows to forest, or were even measurably affected enough by it to change it. (Was there a reason why plains bison would have been preferred over the wood bison, or the deer or elk or moose that would have inhabited the area in question? Could those little bands of people and their puny effects - a few more forest fires than would have naturally occurred - have had any influence over the migration patterns of plains bison, really?) However, I can imagine fire may have been used to drive animals... why not? But I'd guess that any conscious need to change the landscape (i.e. to sustain resources) would only come with settlement (and that would generally be associated with agriculture - crops or cattle)... but why bother do that when you can just move on? Before "settlement" came along and wrecked things, such as they were, I mean...
Anyway, totally off the topic...
Apparently, the conclusions of a group from the Kirstenbosch Botanical Garden in South Africa on the subject were published in The Garden, July, 1995. Deno talks about and critiques some of the conclusions in his First Supplement to the Second Edition of Seed Germination Theory and Practice, and also comments on the work done at the Agricultural Station at Gosford, NSW, Australia. I won't quote it (unless there is a specific interest in it) but it's very interesting reading.
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(I admit I don't have the discipline, or interest, even, to do controlled experiments, which is what would be required to prove that smoke treatment is essential or beneficial. In Deno's opinion, this seems to include even involve quantifying the giberellin effect in the soil... much more than I have the tools to do. ;))
Is it true about the "sole" treatment? I don't know... but no one seemed to jump on it in later issues, so I assume it is accepted.
An aside.... I dunno, I'd find it pretty hard to believe that aboriginal people - ...- had a large enough sphere of vision to worry about the natural succession of grasslands edges and meadows to forest, or were even measurably affected enough by it to change it.
beyond my range, too..seems pretty accepted as important in some SA and Aus species, though the scope of the importance might be questioned when coming from someone selling the 'smoke'...
it would be interesting to see if there are any sources to back up the info about native land management in this area; i think (i say, i think, since wherever i heard it its now a long time ago!)it comes to me from family sources, who moved into this area only in the 1940's, when a lot of this area had still not been cleared by settlers--(in fact, land was still being cleared in my childhood in the 70's; i was happy to see when i came back that that trend had not continued, in fact, there may be more forested land now than when i was young)...
and native groups (who would have lived farther west) still occasionally passed through gathering berries etc..i was told that most of the forest in this area was not much older than the time of the first european settlers (a few decades before my family, but not everywhere), and there were no really old forests around here.. but again, i've never seen any documents on the subject..
certainly, it would not have been a very difficult undertaking--grass fires are not at all uncommon in the areas east and south, and would very easily discourage trees from growing in areas such as this; if you could encourage the massive bison herds, it would be a much easier living than hunting solitary animals in the bush..
a very short search turned up this reference, from the page below:
'There was also deliberate burning by Aboriginal peoples to improve grassland for forage or to drive game.'
http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/grasses_and_grasslands_native.html
i suppose its not a big step from 'improve... forage' to create or maintain forage...
Edit: apparently this native burning was more widespread than i realised see this paragraph from page 3 of the link below:
"..the modification of the American continent by fire at the hands of Asian immigrants [now called
American Indians, Native Americans, or First Nations/People] was the result of repeated,
controlled, surface burns on a cycle of one to three years, broken by occasional holocausts from
escape fires and periodic conflagrations during times of drought. Even under ideal
circumstances, accidents occurred: signal fires escaped and campfires spread, with the result that
valuable range was untimely scorched, buffalo driven away, and villages threatened. Burned
corpses on the prairie were far from rare. So extensive were the cumulative effects of these
modifications that it may be said that the general consequence of the Indian occupation of the
New World was to replace forested land with grassland or savannah, or, where the forest
persisted, to open it up and free it from underbrush. Most of the impenetrable woods encountered
by explorers were in bogs or swamps from which fire was excluded; naturally drained landscape
was nearly everywhere burned. Conversely, almost wherever the European went, forests
followed. The Great American Forest may be more a product of settlement than a victim of it.."
http://www.nps.gov/grko/forteachers/upload/Fire%20on%20Prairie.pdf
sorry to our Aus friends for this diversion which should have gone to a different thread perhaps on NA fires! but very interesting..
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South African Protaceae also need fire or at least smoke to trigger germination.
The Kirstenbosch catalogue (http://www.scribd.com/doc/14878531/kirstenbosch-botanical-gardenseedcatalogue2009) mentions Restionaceae and Ericaceae too. My own experience with the former has been that smoke primers raise germination rate from very very low to merely very low ;) ;D
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In Sweden we have two species of Geranium G languniosum and G bohemicum which are very rare but occur after forest fires.
They are supposed to need 40-50°C in order to trigger germination and the seeds can stand 100°C without dying. However it seems that they also will germinate without heat treatment if they are very old since they may appear after soil disturbance.
It seems that they have a growth inhibitor that will evaporate quickly at high temperatures or very slowly at normal temperature – so slowly that they are covered up by debris before they are able to germinate.
A certain percentage of the seeds will germinate with normal “garden” treatment but next to never in the wild.
Considering the number of fires in Australia I would expect some Australians to behave in the same way.
Cheers
Göte
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Gote,
I don't know.... I can't think of many Australians that would stand 100'C without dying. It feels bad enough at 40'C to me, although I'm not that tough and Australian. ;D ;)
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Gote,
I don't know.... I can't think of many Australians that would stand 100'C without dying. It feels bad enough at 40'C to me, although I'm not that tough and Australian. ;D ;)
You are scattering my illusions Paul :'( :'( :'( :'(
Where are all those corocdiel hunters gone. ???
Göte
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Gote, Geranium bohemicum, quite sticky and hairy, is available in all garden centres over here as seeds
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I looked up languinosum is my books but it is mentioned only one time where the author says "very similar to G. bohemicum". Gote do you have a photo?
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I looked up languinosum is my books but it is mentioned only one time where the author says "very similar to G. bohemicum". Gote do you have a photo?
It is pretty rare due to its habit and it is red-listed. I have never seen it.
Try http://linnaeus.nrm.se/flora/di/gerania/geran/geralan.html
That is a good site for Swedish natives. The text is in Swedish but all pics are in English ;D
Göte
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Gote,
I don't know.... I can't think of many Australians that would stand 100'C without dying. It feels bad enough at 40'C to me, although I'm not that tough and Australian. ;D ;)
Twenty minutes in a sauna at 100oC is all I can stand. The French seem to go in for these weird experiments: scientist plus technician (both naked) plus technician's dog plus an uncooked beef steak stayed in an oven unharmed until the steak was well cooked. The humans sweated to keep cool and the dog, which can't sweat (Jack London please note ::)), panted. This may be apocryphal (I love that word), but heigh, it makes a good tale.
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It's only November and we already have bushfires in various parts of Australia. South Australia and parts of Victoria have "Catastrophic" level fire warnings out, which was a new level brought in in the last year. I bet they didn't really expect to use it until January or February. At this rate I reckon half of Australia will be burning by summer itself. :o
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Twenty minutes in a sauna at 100oC is all I can stand.
I hope you mean 100oF.