Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Diane Whitehead on February 04, 2009, 10:50:41 PM
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There don't seem to be many variations of woronowii. I have had
two, from local sources, for over 30 years. One is undistinguished,
except that it blooms early, for a long period, and multiplies very well.
The other has a tiny green spot on the outer petals, and was being
sold in a garden centre as Viridapice. I have never had seeds from
either clone.
Occasionally bulbs are brought in from the Netherlands and sold in
flower outside grocery stores. This is one of those years, and I
have been driving around to all the supermarkets looking for them.
Our season is very late this year because of cold weather, and the
pots of snowdrops are mostly showing tight buds. As soon as one
flowers, it is snapped up by a passing shopper. So I have not had
the immense selection to choose from that I had hoped for. The ones
that I have seen in flower have been small and ordinary, except for one
with a good-sized outer mark, the biggest I have seen.
Here are two grocery store woronowii, and one elwesii bought last
year, to compare flower size.
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I have a tiny woronowii at only 3 inches tall
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Could we see bigger versions of these pics Diane? The green tipped ones are most interesting. 8)
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woronowii 'Green Woodpecker'
woronowii small pale form
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Diane
I would love to see a picture of that one on the right of your photograph. The green mark looks very distinct and the shape of the flower looks nice (to my eyes).
Regards
John
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The two plants are right next to each other and look identical
so I think I must have a double-nosed bulb.
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Love it! ;D
One to look after (translated = don't shove it under the bench with no soil! ;))
Regards
John
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The two plants are right next to each other and look identical
so I think I must have a double-nosed bulb.
Diane - It's a beauty!
johnw
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Diane
That's a real find you have there. I would not describe it a green tipped because of the look and shape of the outer petals. Much more like Trym or Clovis or Green of Hearts where the outer petals have taken on some of the character and shape of the inner petals. You must look after that one carefully and bulk it up.
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Diane,
yes, I think like Alan. Fine discovery. Your supermarket is a treasury!
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Yes Diane, that is very special. 8) I would be tempted to get it checked out by the experts as you may have a real find? I think some people would give their eye teeth for a woronowii like that? You must name it.
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Wait a year before naming it. About 4 years ago I got 11 green tipped woronowii from a garden centre I worked in. All came back normal and have never produced green tips since then
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Mark,
I am beginning to worry about you. Yesterday, I think, you grouped several of the G. atkinsii cultivars together and said you could see no difference between them. You did likewise with G. 'Mighty Atom' and G. 'S. Arnott' and today you are advising restraint in naming new snowdrops. This is not the Mark we have become used to at all. This latest trip across to the U.K. must have had great effects on you.
Paddy (tongue in cheek)
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I think Diane's plant is a find on a par with Galanthus 'Valentine's Day'. The fact that there are two identical flowers would suggest stability, rather like Tony's twin petalled one. I'd be excited to find either one. Mmm a cyborg has just walked along the Callender Road past my classroom window. ::)
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A phone call today and I hear there is an almost virescent woronowii but when I said Diane's looks like 'Trym' s/he got a little excited.
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Diane,
superb find!!
Reminds me of this 'Trymlike' nivalis selection.
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Could we see bigger versions of these pics Diane? The green tipped ones are most interesting. 8)
Remember I said it first! ;D
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It also looks to have a good mark on the inside of the outers. Antseye view would be good please Diane?
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Maybe not ant's eye view but bring them inside to open them and then a good close photo
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Lunch bell has gone and I'm sitting in a darkened room. Not sure if it is to recover from the lively second year class I've just had (the lesson was watching 'Powerful stuff' and 'Electric Graffiti' about electrical safety) or looking at that snowdrop again. ;D
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Well, I brought the pot inside to my warm living room (23 C) but it hasn't
made much difference. The flowers look a bit rounder, but the inners
don't show.
I pried a petal back with my fingers to look inside. The inner petals each have
a sinus, otherwise the inner green marks are the same as the outer ones.
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The two plants are right next to each other and look identical
so I think I must have a double-nosed bulb.
darf ich dieses Foto für die Seite www.galanthus-online.de benutzen ? Dein Name wird im Foto gezeigt.
Lg
Günter
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Yes, you are very welcome to use the photo, Günter.
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I have kept the pot in my warm living room, and every day I have tapped
the flowers over a dark plate so I could see if pollen was shed. None was
ever visible, and the flowers are dying, so I removed the stamens and
examined them with a magnifying glass. No sign of pollen.
I am disappointed, as I wanted some seeds. However, perhaps the bulbs
will multiply faster if there is no seed.
There are three pairs of leaves, two with a flower, and one without. Does
that mean that I have three bulbs?
I will twinscale one of them in May.
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There are three pairs of leaves, two with a flower, and one without. Does
that mean that I have three bulbs?
Thats a good question. Daffodils can be two or even three "nosed" meaning there are essentially two or three bulbs but tightly bound together so the shape remains that of a single bulb. I think some snowdrops can be the same, but I am open to correction or clarification on this.
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It would indicate a good rate of increase if, this seems likely, is in the process of making two daughter bulbs. Happy days Diane. 8)
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Yes, you are very welcome to use the photo, Günter.
Danke :D
Günter
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I think for twin scaling a single nosed bulb is needed
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I think for twin scaling a single nosed bulb is needed
I cannot see that this makes any botanical sense, but it might make sense mathematically. If you start with a twin-nosed bulb you are already on the verge of having two bulbs so you may get a faster rate of increase by allowing your bulb to continue dividing naturally than by chopping it up.
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I did not get around to twinscaling my trym-like woronowii.
I checked the pot today, and both bulbs have rotted.
This is very disappointing.
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Oh no. Did you repot them or leave them in the pot they came in? Over here they come grown in peat or simply set in a pot and covered in moss
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Commiserations Diane :'( :'(
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I potted the whole lot on into a larger pot, but I didn't separate
out the non-trym bulbs and they are big and sound, so it seems
it was just a problem with the special ones in the corner with
the blue ribbon around them.
The flowers produced no pollen and no seeds. Obviously not
meant for this world.
I'll keep an eye on the pot to see if just maybe .....
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Diane, it's possible that the unusual flower shape wasn't a stable variation but actually a symptom of a couple of unhealthy bulbs struggling to produce properly-shaped flowers before eventually rotting. So you may not have actually lost anything very special - just bulbs that were producing deformed flowers due to bulb/root rot.
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I'll be checking all garden centre snowdrops this year. It all reminds me when some stunners were found over here. I would have liked to have sent them away to experts but I was turned down. All were lost
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That's a shame Diane - but at least we have the photographs to remember them by. :)
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I'll be checking all garden centre snowdrops this year. It all reminds me when some stunners were found over here. I would have liked to have sent them away to experts but I was turned down. All were lost
Mark
When you say lost, what do you mean - they rotted in the purchaser's care? They were bought by someone other than yourself?
If I see pots of snowdrops with unusual markings - I buy them and repot. :)
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Arthur these were found in a garden centre over here in 2006. Someone who works there say them in a delivery of elwesii. I wanted them to go away for twinscaling but the person who found them did it himself. All failed
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I remember being quite taken by them when you first showed the Bushmills pictures Mark - such a shame that the garden centre finds always seem so feeble! :-\
All the nice ones I have found have either failed to appear the following year - or have given me one more flowering season to get me excited and then disappeared without a trace. I had a beautiful fat green tipped Elwesii that I had high hopes for - but two years down the line 'there it was.... gone!' :'(
I am sure it won't stop me from buying more and trying again though. ::) ;D
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Arthur these were found in a garden centre over here in 2006. Someone who works there say them in a delivery of elwesii. I wanted them to go away for twinscaling but the person who found them did it himself. All failed
Very sad to lose some excellent plants. Having read John's note, and from personal experience, not sure I will be any more successful just keeping them alive let alone twinscaling them.
Before you get too excited, my finds are nowhere near as good as the Bushmill finds - just interesting
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Out of interest can someone explain the differences between an G Woronowii Elizabeth Harrison thats not showing its full yellowness and a Woronowii Pale Form ? I have never seen either in the flesh and info on woronowii types seems hard to find.
In fact this thread is one of the only things that comes up in a google search on Woronowii Pale Form.
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I've never seen 'Elizabeth Harrison' looking other than beautifully yellow and only the photos of a supposedly "pale" woronowii - but it seems to me that the first is distinctly yellow while the second is pale green.
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Thanks Maggie , i presume therefore that Elizabeth Harrison doesnt suffer as much from the potential lime/yellow issues of some of the other yellows ? Theres seems to be quite a few of both EH and pale form on ebay at the moment and in some of the pictures they dont look that different at a glance --
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It's always yellow in my experience. I've had a look at the various plants on ebay at the minute - I do see a difference between yellow and pale - and in ovary shape too - but there are so many variables that I cannot make a judgement!
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Thanks again -- i think its also made harder by photo quality - colour wise theres a pale form listed thats clearly yelower than a listed EH -- and both from sound sellers , possibly a little colour adjustment in one and lack of in the other
There seems to be so much variation within the Woronowii group even though there dont (to an amateur) appear to be many 'named' varieties. And being a species group that you can purchase quite cheaply dormant, seems to have an elwesii comparison to finding something worthwhile within bulk purchase.
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Pale variants are quite frequently found among mixtures of G. woronowii, whereas ´Elizabeth Harrison´is an outstanding yellow clone, I think.
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Out of interest can someone explain the differences between an G Woronowii Elizabeth Harrison thats not showing its full yellowness and a Woronowii Pale Form ? I have never seen either in the flesh and info on woronowii types seems hard to find.
In fact this thread is one of the only things that comes up in a google search on Woronowii Pale Form.
That's an interesting question actually. I bought 'Elizabeth Harrison' from Paul Barney of Edulis nursery (see image). He said he was always disappointed by the flower because it seems not completely yellow to him in real life.
[attachimg=1]
I didn't think much of it untill I read the North Green snowdrop catalogue, which says at the end of the their sales pitch for Elizabeth Harrison: "We offer the good yellow clone........"
Could it be that there are two clones in circulation? One nice and yellow, and one more lime-ish?
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I am currently selling a Woronwii pale form on ebay and it is almost yellow. The colour on the photograph is a true representation. I bought ten plants about four years ago and they certainly were not as yellow as they have been for the last two years. I don't know why this is, maybe they have just settled down. Any thoughts?
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Are you liliacgary ? if so your pale is looking extremely yellow to me !!
From the pictures i wouldnt know that it wasnt Elizabeth Harrison hence i was wondering what other defining features separate the two.
Also i wondered if the Woronowii yellows were affected by soil type and sun quantities like many of the other species yellows?
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Yes that's me and have to agree it looks very yellow. I couldn't tell you the difference between this and EH as I have never seen EH except for photos. When I first bought the plant it was more a pale lime ovary and inner mark but has gradually become yellower each year. My soil is acidic and it grows in dappled shade. Certainly more shade than sun. Don't know if this helps.
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Hi Gary, ive bought form you on several occasions over the last couple of years and always been satisfied.
So probably the acidic soil helps accentuate the yellowness like with many of the other yellows - thats interesting.
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If you find a clump of near-identical looking snowdrops it is impossible to know if they are a group of sibling seedlings or if the clump has developed from a single original by natural division. My understanding is that 'Elizabeth Harrison' came from a clump so it is possible the originals were not all the same clone.
Most people who sell snowdrops commercially bulk-up their stock by chipping as this generally achieves a more rapid rate of increase than by natural division. It is known that chips don't always come true to their parent; ipocs in particular are known for this with the bulbs resulting from some chips losing their markings. If the chipping-induced mutation is a major one then the "bad" chips can be weeded out, provided the grower is scrupulous to flower the chipped bulb before selling it on. But if the change were a minor one like the quality of yellowness then it would probably pass undetected.
Joe Sharman, a maestro of the yellow snowdrop, consistently reports that yellows grown on his soil often appear green. So what is in your soil must make a difference to the quality of the yellow.
Another famous yellow snowdrop is 'Ecusson D'or' and I have heard the same story about that one, namely that there are good and bad forms in circulation. But I would be willing to bet an 'Elizabeth Harrison' or an 'Ecussion D'or' (neither of which I actually own, by the way) that nobody has ever done a side-by-side trial of allegedly good and bad forms.
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Hi Deee, thanks for the comments. It could well be the acid soil that makes it more yellow. As someone has already commented, maybe we see the yellows differently. I see the Woronwii that i am selling not as clear yellow as the photos of EH. I see it as a very pale lime going towards yellow.
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I am currently selling a Woronwii pale form on ebay and it is almost yellow. The colour on the photograph is a true representation. I bought ten plants about four years ago and they certainly were not as yellow as they have been for the last two years. I don't know why this is, maybe they have just settled down. Any thoughts?
In my garden and green-house, the same variety or clone doesn´t perform the same way every year. The yellowness of ovary and marks is obviously influenced by the amount of sunlight enjoyed while leaves and buds develop. Carolyn Walker pointed out that the yellows do look much more yellow in North America, where they enjoy stronger sunlight, than she has seen them in Europe.
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I saw the pot of Elizabeth Harrison when it was exhibited at Dunblane and they certainly looked to be a clump of identical flowers.
A picture of one of my Elizabeth Harrison attached
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[attachimg=3]
I saw the pot of Elizabeth Harrison when it was exhibited at Dunblane and they certainly looked to be a clump of identical flowers.
Ian Christie had the original clump from the lady herself, Elizabeth Harrison, as I understand it. I don't know how long afterwards he first exhibited it but if he was prudent then what went on show would not have been his entire stock.
Here is a pot of 'Elizabeth Harrison' floating in mid-air at the RHS London Show last February.
[attachimg=1]
To my eyes that is a very poor yellow indeed, particularly on the ovaries/receptacles.
(Edited to show correct photo).
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I saw the pot of Elizabeth Harrison when it was exhibited at Dunblane and they certainly looked to be a clump of identical flowers.
I don't grow either of these but but to my eyes Tony I'd have said that was more a lime green going on yellow! And the picture Alan posted to me looks even more green!
Of course different cameras and light could be a big factor!
If the colours I'm seeing are a good representation then I'd be somewhat disappointed! I have certainly found wild forms more yellow than Alan's picture and more on par with the colour of Tony's.
When the snow melts and if they are flowering i will take some pics.
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Here is a pot of 'Elizabeth Harrison' floating in mid-air at the RHS London Show last February.
(Attachment Link)
To my eyes that is a very poor yellow indeed, particularly on the ovaries/receptacles.
A very poor example!
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so far it appears like you could pick up/find a pale form in a bulk purchase of woronwii , grow it well in slightly acid soil in strong sunlight and end up with a more yellow looking Wornowii than some EH.
If most of the other identifying features are the same / similar enough then how would you tell the difference or buy/sell correctly.
Surely there must be identifying features to distance the two -- none of the few books i have / or internet searches even state 'pale form' exists.
Or is Elizabeth Harrison in theory just a strong clone from the wild pale form ?
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There may be other woronowii showing similar characteristics to 'Elizabeth Harrison' - but only those plants directly from the original plants are actually 'Elizabeth Harrison' regardless of how yellow they may be.
The same applies to all other snowdrops - they may resemble a named form, but if they are not physically derived from that form then they are not entitled to that that name.
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Thankyou Maggie , and i understand what you are saying.
Im just trying to clarify what the differences are between EH and pale form, and so far colour has been the only mentioned difference which appears to be inaccurate or 'manipulable' through growing conditions.
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In my garden and green-house, the same variety or clone doesn´t perform the same way every year. The yellowness of ovary and marks is obviously influenced by the amount of sunlight enjoyed while leaves and buds develop. Carolyn Walker pointed out that the yellows do look much more yellow in North America, where they enjoy stronger sunlight, than she has seen them in Europe.
This is an interesting discussion. I don't have EH or any other yellow woronowii, but all yellow nivalis or plicatus I have are good yellow, just like in the pictures. However, many snowdrops which show green shade in the outer petals in pictures, perform not so well here for me. For instance 'Kildare' (from a reliable source) shows hardly any green, the same is with 'Green Light' and even 'Rosemary Burnham' is not as green as I've seen in pictures. Many times it is colder here when snowdrops flower than in more south, maybe it is that, or the fact that my soil is acidic.
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Leena, I'm sorry to read that 'Green Light' is not performing for you; I feel personally responsible for this one. Can you post a photograph? 'Green Light' should always have bright green leaves, unlike a normal nivalis. In my experience the outer petals almost always have green tips; I think I once observed a counterexample but that is once in 15 years of growing a good few. However the amount of green on the tip can vary; it is sometimes only small and may require close examination to see.
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There may be other woronowii showing similar characteristics to 'Elizabeth Harrison' - but only those plants directly from the original plants are actually 'Elizabeth Harrison' regardless of how yellow they may be.
The same applies to all other snowdrops - they may resemble a named form, but if they are not physically derived from that form then they are not entitled to that that name.
This is absolutely correct but a point I tried to make earlier is that it is possible that a snowdrop physically derived from one form may mutate into a different form. This phenomenon is well-known in some other bulbs such as hyacinths (which have a much longer history of active cultivation). To quote from https://oldhousegardens.com/HyacinthHistory
On rare occasions sporting does occur and a mutation of a variety worthy of cultivation will appear. It may change from a single to a double as happened with ‘Hollyhock’, a sport of ‘Tubergen’s Scarlet’ (1920) itself a sport of the single ‘Distinction’ (1880), . . . or it may change its color completely. . . .
If hyacinths can undergo a complete colour change then there must be a theoretical possibility that there is a mutant form of 'Elizabeth Harrison' that is less yellow than the original.
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If hyacinths can undergo a complete colour change then there must be a theoretical possibility that there is a mutant form of 'Elizabeth Harrison' that is less yellow than the original.
With the chances of seeing a somatic mutation increased given how much twin scaling goes on.
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Leena, I'm sorry to read that 'Green Light' is not performing for you; I feel personally responsible for this one. Can you post a photograph? 'Green Light' should always have bright green leaves, unlike a normal nivalis. In my experience the outer petals almost always have green tips; I think I once observed a counterexample but that is once in 15 years of growing a good few. However the amount of green on the tip can vary; it is sometimes only small and may require close examination to see.
Alan, don't be sorry :). I am very pleased to have it and it's leaves are bright green, not like any other G.nivalis I have! It is just that the flowers don't show green in the outers, and as it is the same with some other greens here, it could be the climate or soil which affects it, or that is what I was thinking, in light of what was discussed about yellows in this thread.
Here is the picture of it last spring, and it is growing well as you can see. :)
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How curious, Leena. Here's a picture I took today of a little clump that I planted near the door. I under-exposed the picture so that the petals and any markings on them were clearly visible.
[attachimg=1]
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Thanks for the picture, Alan. :) I planted them so that there were not other snowdrops close, so that they couldn't be mixed up with anything. Here there is still about 50cm snow, but 'Green Light' is always coming up in the snow as soon as it melts.
Unlike my G.woronowii, which is one of the late ones to come up in late April.
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I found 'Green Light' growing amongst a huge swathe of ordinary nivalis. I think I only spotted it because it was earlier than the most of its fellows, the leaves were more developed and therefore easier to see.
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I saw the pot of Elizabeth Harrison when it was exhibited at Dunblane and they certainly looked to be a clump of identical flowers.
I don't grow either of these but but to my eyes Tony I'd have said that was more a lime green going on yellow! And the picture Alan posted to me looks even more green!
Of course different cameras and light could be a big factor!
If the colours I'm seeing are a good representation then I'd be somewhat disappointed! I have certainly found wild forms more yellow than Alan's picture and more on par with the colour of Tony's.
When the snow melts and if they are flowering i will take some pics.
Here are some pics of the yellow worronowii I have. The ovary is green but the inner mark is yellow and my soil is alkaline. As an experiment and if I remember...I'll split when dormant and plant half into some acidic soil and see if there is any difference and report my findings next year.
edit by maggi to rotate photos
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Shaun -- sounds like a good experiment and ill be doing similar next year hopefully with 2 diff EH and Pale Form.
Just be carefull how acidic you make the soil -- better to verge on the 'gentle' side, to be safe.
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Let's see if this works for me now ::)
A bit too early to say it's a 'variation'. But I thought some of you would be interested to see it anyway.
A G. woronowii I found in a local garden centre.
Two flowers coming from the one pedicel.
I'm obviously hoping it will prove stable, but won't be surprised if it isn't. Worth the little risk regardelss.
So here's hoping (fingers and everything else crossed)
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i think bulk buying of elwesii and woronowii types is a really affordable way of exploring the huge diversity of snowdrops.
Not that its been mentioned here but someone posted a picture of what they claim ( and appears to be ) a true wild yellow elwesii on facebook recently. Found in a 1000 bulk buy order - as far as im aware with my limited knowledge -- that would be one of the greatest finds of recent years !
Prices of snowdrops has become a bit mad -- i think its important for the general enthusiast to have a cost effective way of entering and enjoying that world and keeping that enthusiasm and interest growing for future generations.
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..........Prices of snowdrops has become a bit mad -- i think its important for the general enthusiast to have a cost effective way of entering and enjoying that world and keeping that enthusiasm and interest growing for future generations.
Here Here, and I speak as one who has never paid more that £10 for one bulb of whatever species and never will!
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A G. woronowii I found in a local garden centre.
Two flowers coming from the one pedicel.
You have two flowers fused at the ovary/receptacle. Some snowdrops, notably one called 'Mrs Thompson', do this sort of thing regularly although with variations on the theme. I have an unnamed snowdrop where about one flower in one hundred will be like this. Or it may be a one-off, never to be repeated. But certainly worth a punt at garden centre prices, as deee says.
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You have two flowers fused at the ovary/receptacle. Some snowdrops, notably one called 'Mrs Thompson', do this sort of thing regularly although with variations on the theme.
Thanks for this info Alan. I had seen 2 flowered ones, but not the 2 fused flower versions. After a web search I've now managed to find a couple of pic's. I see she is a hybrid. So being G. woronowii, this would be a new clone. Just need to wait a few years now to see if it's ever repeats this.
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Not sure if it's going to be stable or if it's the first poc woronowii but at least I have a photo Incase it never does it again
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=1]
edit by maggi to turn the image
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And a nice green tipped form
[attachimg=1]
( edit to rotate photo)
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Woronowii 'Tuppence'
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
( edit to rotate photos)