Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: johnw on February 02, 2009, 06:43:44 PM
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We had never really taken a close look at the bulbs of the 2 Alliums we are growing from the ACE.
What a shock, more roots than bulbs after all the years.
johnw
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Have they flowered John? I ask because maybe they are the kind - like chives - that don't make proper "bulbs" but just little growing points with massive roots systems and heaps of foliage but still do flower well - like chives :)
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Have they flowered John? I ask because maybe they are the kind - like chives - that don't make proper "bulbs" but just little growing points with massive roots systems and heaps of foliage but still do flower well - like chives :)
Lesley - Both have flowered ACE94-2394 was identified by Aaron as A. prattii. However I can't tell you which is which in the above pictures.
The other one ACE94-2430 has not been identified yet. See photo from last year below.
I didn't realize chives were much the same.
johnw
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The roots and shoots of Allium narcissiflorum are much the same, they do not produce easily recognisable bulbs
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your Allium is of a tuberous group without real bulb. No problem. There is numerous species like them (narcissiflorum, insubricum, tuberosum,schoenoprasum, nutans, montanum, kermesinum etc...) The roots must never dry
Dom
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Domininque and Lesley are right with their recommendation. The roots of this type need the hole year round a damp mixture or soil. I killed some of these types not recognized this in the last 3 year.
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Some early species of Allium are in flower at the moment.
There are about 40 species of Allium growing in Israel, some are stunning.
A. orientale
A. erdelii
Allium erdelii
A. tel-avivense
Allium tel-avivense
Allium neapolitanum
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Wow - A. tel-avivense is a real cracker ! ;D
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Never figured to myself that there are so fine onions!
Great photos, Oron!
Gerd
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Really beautiful and interesting species: I hope you could show any pictures of Allium hierochuntinum, it is very beautiful blue allium!
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This is an interesting article about the onions of Israel..... http://www.botanic.co.il/english/research/Allium.htm
by Dr. Ori Fragman- Sapir ...and translated, thanks be, into English 8)
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Really beautiful and interesting species: I hope you could show any pictures of Allium hierochuntinum, it is very beautiful blue allium!
Rafa
Here is A. hierchuntinum, It grows abundantly in the area of Jericho in the Judea desert, where it takes its name from.
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Oron superb pictures.
Can you something say about the habitat of A. erdelii and A. tel-avivense ?
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Amasing pictures, Oron. Thanks for sharing
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Oron superb pictures.
Can you something say about the habitat of A. erdelii and A. tel-avivense ?
Uli,
A. tel-avivense grows in pure send on the coast line just north to Tel- Aviv, in a few localeties it grows close the water line.
It is endemic to the Israeli coastal line.
A. erdeli has two main populations, the first is in the same area of A. tel-avivense and the second is in the northern part of the Negev Desert in semidesert conditions but it can be found in smaller quantities in many other parts, but always in very sunny, open, hot spots with low growing plants.
It grows also in the Jordan valley and Jordan as well.
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Thank you for the fast reply Oron !
I knew the article Maggi mentioned! Can you recommend a book for you area about bulbous plants?
Or is it the same problem as you mentioned in the threat about the scilla you don't know.
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Thank you Oron!
I lost this year A. aschersonianum and A. tel-aviense, they are quite tender... fortunately I have some seedlings with the seeds you sent me.
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Thank you Oron!
I lost this year A. aschersonianum and A. tel-aviense, they are quite tender... fortunately I have some seedlings with the seeds you sent me.
Rafa, you should try to grow species from higher altitudes, such as the species from Mt. hermon.
A. libani for example grows above 1700m [up to 2800m] and is very hardy.
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I really do like A. erdelii. Something quite different, and so much flower to so little leaf. Very nice. :)
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really beautiful one!
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Nice plants.
There is a thread about edible plan that has a lot of allium and it may be of interest to You all.
There are also some questions on the identity of some that are presumed to come from the east ("maybe Russia") so there might be some with knowledge about that.
It is nice to see the opposite tender alliums and allium that can take -40C in the edible thread.
All the best
Joakim
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Two more species which became weeds in my garden and in my neighbore's too :-\
A. triquetrum
A. trifoliatum var. sterile
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Two more species which became weeds in my garden and in my neighbore's too :-\
A. triquetrum
A. trifoliatum var. sterile
Hi Oron,
A.triquerum is a major weed throughout south-eastern Australia!
An autumn flowering allium in flower here is A. tuberosum,
[attachthumb=1]
It can also seed itself around but has the advantage of being edible so weedings can be taken to the kitchen. ;D
cheers
fermi
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It can also seed itself around but has the advantage of being edible so weedings can be taken to the kitchen. ;D
Fine example of primary recycling! 8)
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A.neopolinatum is my favouirte so far
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It can also seed itself around but has the advantage of being edible so weedings can be taken to the kitchen. ;D
cheers
fermi
The flowers are tasty too.
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More Alliums in flower at the moment,
This A. schubertii is a football size.
A. ascersonianum is a semidesert species up to about 80cm
A. nigrum, one of the nicest species, growing in higher altitudes in the upper Galilee and the Golan Heights but is distributed trough all the East Mediterranean, having also different color forms.
A. rothii from the Negev desert.
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Beautiful Allium nigrum - but it seems it shows this fine performance only in your country. Googled for it and found: (in cultivation) up to 80 cm!
Gerd
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Gerd
This form [white petals] has two populations, a dwarf one up to 20cm, like the one in the photo and a much taller one up to about 80cm.
They grow in different areas in North Israel.
This dwarf form was included many years ago in the A. nigrum group, but personally I have doubt about it's real identity.
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Wonderful alliums Oron. All with beautiful infloresences. Do they all experience frost in the wild? (ie can we attempt to grow them in our northern gardens?)
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Allium schubertii is certainly hardy here in zone 3.
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Wonderful alliums Oron. All with beautiful infloresences. Do they all experience frost in the wild? (ie can we attempt to grow them in our northern gardens?)
Tony
Both A. nigrum [as Lori mentioned] and A. schubertii , are in cultivation for many years now and both seems to be hardy.
I think Alliums are the group that can surprise the most, these are tough plants, despite their delicate appearance.
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Allium carmeli is in flower now, this is a tall species [more than 1 meter in height] it appears in two color forms white and a stunning phosphorus pink.
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Oron that pink form is really lovely.
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Nice head on both of them, regardless of colour. Very nice.
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My friend sent me some Allium ursinum seeds. I'd like to have some advices for growing them. ^^
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Fantastic pictures of Alliums I can mostly only dream of, Oron!
Allium ursinum: Damp, cool, shady conditions would be their preference I think... Can be invasive in a garden given the latter conditions.
Allium nigrum: Has so far survived one winter here in the north!
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A. libani is so unusual looking - I love the maroon 'eyes' against the grey...I would like to try it here, is it annual Oron?
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Just started Allium season in greenhouse. The first bloomers A. libanii from Syria, noeanum from Iran and American A. brandegei
Janis
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Ragged, A. libani is perennial and fully hardy, and you can see Janis is growing it perfectly.
Stephen, i think if you manage to keep A. nigrum dry and relatively hot during summer it should not be difficult to grow it , it is hardy here, growing above 1000m.
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Here is Allium stamineum, looks like fireworks with its flowers cascading allover,
It is very common here growing in different soils and elevations.
Excellent for growing in a small pot in mild areas, making dense clumps.
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Flowering today:
Allium karataviense henrikii
Allium bodeanum
Allium elburzensis
Allium shelkovnikovii
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Flowering today:
Allium karataviense henrikii
Allium bodeanum
Allium elburzensis
Allium shelkovnikovii
I'm afraid - it isn't bodeanum. See bodeanum - first picture from 1982, near Arvaz, Turkmenistan. Another - last spring, Iran gathering.
Janis
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Thanks Janis. I don't suppose anyone has any ideas?
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Simon,
Beautiful plants...I especially enjoyed the elburzensis and shelkovnikovii...
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Thanks Janis. I don't suppose anyone has any ideas?
It is some of Iranian, I suppose. Sorry, haven't time now for identifying what by picture only is quite difficult. What is origin?
Janis
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It is possible the mix up is mine. I have had several other Iranian Alliums, including some which were bought as Allium aff. ____ .
Maybe when the rest flower I will be able to sort out which is which. This plant has 4 huge leaves at ground level, with the flower head sitting in between these.
Simon
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Thanks Carlo. Janis, I just checked in 'Bulbs' by Phillips and Rix, my Allium bodeanum is the same as the pic they have of A.bodianum. Which leaves me unsure as to which spelling is correct as a search for A.bodianum online gets less hits than A.bodeanum. I was also wondering if maybe the plant in cultivation as A.bodeanum (and the one pictured in the book) is a different selection or a different species masquerading as it. ??? :-\
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Here are some Allium blooming or just past with me here in east Tennessee.
First is Allium perdulce, Barton Co., KS, exceedingly sweet scented like a mix between the old regular pink bubblegum and Dianthus. This starts flowering the last week of March here and continued until the first few days of 80F in Late April. It is a very small plant not more than 15cm tall.
Then, Allium canadense fraseri, McPherson Co., KS, which has a light sweet fragrance probably only noticeable to those with sensitive noses and has pure white flowers in small umbels. This blooms between perdulce and canadense lavandulare which should start in the next two weeks.
Then Allium drummondii, from Cloud Co., KS. This is not really the most attractive form of this species which seems very easy to grow even without a dry summer rest. The more southern forms can be pink with red midribs. The scent of the flowers is somewhat like cabbage and corned beef.
Then Allium umbilicatum from Iran ex ??? (Maybe Gotenburg?). This took three years from seed to flower and is now going string with over 5 flowering stems from two original bulbs. The flowers are nicely fragrant also. The plant has been very tolerant to summer moisture and excessive winter moisture.
Aaron Floden
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Thanks Carlo. Janis, I just checked in 'Bulbs' by Phillips and Rix, my Allium bodeanum is the same as the pic they have of A.bodianum. Which leaves me unsure as to which spelling is correct as a search for A.bodianum online gets less hits than A.bodeanum. I was also wondering if maybe the plant in cultivation as A.bodeanum (and the one pictured in the book) is a different selection or a different species masquerading as it. ??? :-\
By Flora Iranica
A. bodeanum is close to christophii with pale greyish flowers perigonium saepe fere album - not violet at all as in picture of Peter Sheasby in Bulbous Plants of Turkey and Iran., smaller in size but flower head are not sitting between leaves. Its leaves are hairy (scabrido-ciliatis) - (not so hairy as on plant pictured by me in Iran, so I'm not 100% sure that this hairy leafed is bodeanum, but that from Arvaz is 100%), it is very close to christophii with shorter stem (scapo breviore, 10-20 cm longo in speciminibus spontanei). Possibly the same as christophii only form of it (by Wendelbo).
Janis
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Thanks Janis. Maybe in some past confusion a plant was being grown as A.bodeanum in Britain (or western Europe) and this is the plant I bought, as well as the plant pictured in 'Bulbs' by Phillips and Rix. This plant, which looks exactly like mine, is stated as being collected by Ann Ala south of Karadj. I found in the literature online, that A.bodeanum is also listed as a synonym for A.christophii and A.albospathum. This adds to the confusion.
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Thanks Janis. Maybe in some past confusion a plant was being grown as A.bodeanum in Britain (or western Europe) and this is the plant I bought, as well as the plant pictured in 'Bulbs' by Phillips and Rix. This plant, which looks exactly like mine, is stated as being collected by Ann Ala south of Karadj. I found in the literature online, that A.bodeanum is also listed as a synonym for A.christophii and A.albospathum. This adds to the confusion.
Albispathum is synonim of christophii. If christophii and bodeanum are the same - then correct name is bodeanum by priority rules. From gardeners viewpoint they are different - christophii large, bright, easier. Bodeanum more difficult (I lost original plants from Arvaz in pre-greenhouse period), less colorfull and something smaller.
Janis
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I guess that follows the usual rule of selection from the wild. Maybe the 'A.christophii' type was selected because it was large and showy, but the 'A.bodeanum' type was overlooked for being less colourful.
I suppose it is also possible that A.christophii could be a very old and stabilised hybrid found in some parts of the A.bodeanum range.
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Flowering today:
Allium karataviense henrikii
Allium bodeanum
Allium elburzensis
Allium shelkovnikovii
Wonderful onions Simon ! ;)
The A. karataviense henrikii is the one that struck me most !
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Thanks Luc, I have Janis to thank for the A.karataviense henrikii ;)
It is one of the few Alliums visitors to the garden notice and no-one believes me when I say it is an onion.
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Could anyone ID this Allium for me please. It's been in the garden for a few years now and was a freebie bulb with a gardening magazine. Leaves quite floppy and stem about 30cm.
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It looks like A. neapolitanum to me David.
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It does too Ashley, many thanks for that.
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David, to make it easy for you, Allium zebdanense is a possibility too. ;)
They smell the same... ;D
What I know is that bulbs of A. neapolitanum are more roundish.
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Mmmm Luit! I think I might have remembered the name of Allium zebdanense (or at least remembered that it sounded something like Zebadee! ;D) when I got the original bulbs.
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Anyone got an idea of the name of this Allium it was collected in Iran in 2005 up by the North near Orumiyeh by the Turish border, any suggestion welcome
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Anyone got an idea of the name of this Allium it was collected in Iran in 2005 up by the North near Orumiyeh by the Turish border, any suggestion welcome
John, I have a picture of an allium very similar to yours that I will put on next weeks bulb log - a real wee beauty.
I think it is Allium derderianum check it out.
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Wow. Love those leaves and love the flower striping and dense head. Very, very nice Allium.
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Anyone got an idea of the name of this Allium it was collected in Iran in 2005 up by the North near Orumiyeh by the Turish border, any suggestion welcome
John, I have a picture of an allium very similar to yours that I will put on next weeks bulb log - a real wee beauty.
I think it is Allium derderianum check it out.
Thanks Ian i will check it out is A bodeanum quite similar i have been trying to check it out today mine field !!
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John, I've been following the bodeanum debate earlier in this thread..... Janis feel the "correct" plant of bodeanum has very narrow leaves....... confused? You bet I am!
;D
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thanks maggie confused.com !!!!!!
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Can I pick up a spanner and through it into the mix, by suggesting an Allium continuum?
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Flowering at the moment
Allium hollandicum and Allium nevskianum
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I adore the second one. I asked a question in the Southport show pages about trimming the leaves on a show exhibit. I guess this pic show why the leaves need trimming, but still an incredible plant.
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I couldn't agree more ! A super onion Chris !!!
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Sadly most of this type of Allium had dead leaf tips this year. We had a very dry start to the spring with a lot of heat in April. The 'drum-stick' types put their leaves up later and seem less affected.
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Here is Allium 'Purple Sensation', one of a group of five in the garden from garden centre bought bulbs. My label says Allium latunense which I must have taken from the packet they were bought in but Google gives me two other choices Allium aflatunense or Allium x hollandicum. Can anyone sort me out please.
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David,
they look like the same as Simon posted on May 17. Allium x hollandicum.
Two years ago a bulb grower told me that the only real Allium aflatuense he know, from natural source, in western Europe grow at Kew.
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David, Uli,
I grow both in the garden and they are very different plants. What I have as A. xhollandicum is a steely lavender in colour, somewhat more robust in habit and blooms about a week later than A. aflatuense 'Purple Sensation', which is somewhat more gracile and has a flatter flower head. There is, also, a plant running about as A. rosenbachianum, which looks like Purple Sensation, but isn't. Just to confuse the matter.
Attached are the two plants I have.
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Jamie,
now I'm confused. Does A. aflatuense 'Purple Sensation' come true from seed? Your 'Purple Sensation' look the same as mine in the garden. But I don't plant them!! They have multiplied near the "mother-plant" and looks the same way.
I learned, that seeds of cultivars have a variation in the descendants. Or is 'Purple Sensation' a cultivar coming true from seed?
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Yes, it comes true from seed. I started with 3 bulbs and there are quite a few more dotted about the garden, now. I used to think this was actually a species which was packed as Purple Sensation, but I really don't know. It certainly acts like one, although it is not a heavy seeder in comparison with other Alliums.
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Allium aflatunense Purple Sensation is a synonym of Allium x hollandicum Purple Sensation
Registered since 1963. Winner J. Bijl. A.M.-K.A.V.B. 1968, F.C.C.-K.A.V.B. 1971, A.M.-R.H.S. 1987
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There is a whole new world of plants I could explore here. Jamie those last two are amazing.
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Pat ,
A. aflatuense 'Purple Sensation' has been available for a number of years commercially
here .
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Two more species are in bloom now, both are distributed in the Eastern Mediterranean, Turkey and Iran
Allium phanerantherum, easily recognized by the few flowers growing out of order, the second is A. truncatum which is closely related to the much known A. ampeloprasum.
Both species grow easily above 1 meter in height.
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There is a whole new world of plants I could explore here. Jamie those last two are amazing.
Pat, I showed last year a lot of Allium in the Weekly Lisse Flowershow.
Pictured inside, so the colors are not the same as outside, but it gives some information if you like.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1315.135 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1315.135)
Posted by: Otto Fauser
Pat ,
A. aflatuense 'Purple Sensation' has been available for a number of years commercially
here .
Otto, the problem is that Purple Sensation is offered under "aflatunense" as well as "hollandicum" .
I pictured last year this Allium with both names (one from England and one from Holland) at the Connoisseur Collection.
I had a look there today and they are now only under the name Allium hollandicum Purple Sensation, as it should be.
Did make a picture too, but have to resize etc. first.
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Yes, it comes true from seed. I started with 3 bulbs and there are quite a few more dotted about the garden, now. I used to think this was actually a species which was packed as Purple Sensation, but I really don't know. It certainly acts like one, although it is not a heavy seeder in comparison with other Alliums.
Jamie, today I talked to a specialist and he told me that Purple Sensation almost comes true from seed.
There are only little differences but clear to see. It is of course probably, that now and then you may find a plant which looks very much the same.
The original Purple Sensation should only vegetatively be propagated!
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Yes, it comes true from seed. I started with 3 bulbs and there are quite a few more dotted about the garden, now. I used to think this was actually a species which was packed as Purple Sensation, but I really don't know. It certainly acts like one, although it is not a heavy seeder in comparison with other Alliums.
Jamie, today I talked to a specialist and he told me that Purple Sensation almost comes true from seed.
There are only little differences but clear to see. It is of course probably, that now and then you may find a plant which looks very much the same.
The original Purple Sensation should only vegetatively be propagated!
Luit,
interesting to hear this, as it explains the seedlings, but I am not sure it should be considered A. x hollanicum, as the 'classic' form is quite sterile in my garden. It only reproduces via bulblets. It does produce occasional seed, but it never germinates, which seems to indicate a hybrid mule. Purple Sensation is quite fertile and behaves as a variant of a species, which may be why it was placed under A. aflatuense.
Difficult to follow these onions. ;) ;)
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Luit, given that people like a name for a plant isn't a possible that Allium x hollandicum is just a coverall name for several similar looking forms of a wild species?
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What I know about, is that there are Allium hollandicum and A. hollandicum Purple Sensation in culture/trade
and that of these the flower color is different. In literature the only thing I found out, is that A.hollandicum R.M. Fritsch is only known in culture.
Allium aflatunense is called the Persian Onion.
I might have a picture of A. aflatunense too?
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I am assuming Allium hollandicum is not native to Holland- so it is possibe it represents a form, or hybrid, of a species found in the wild somewhere. It is also possible that this may have been collected more than once and diffrent names assigned to these collections.
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P.C Nijssen wrote in his dutch catalog both names A. hollandicum and A. aflatunense will be likely no longer accepted by K.A.V.B.
The new name for A. aflatunense in culture will be A. jesdianum subsp. angustipetalum...
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At the end of the day horticulture is very conservative. I am sure all of these names will be used for many years to come- just to add to confusion. We are still asked by Brits here if we grow Geraniums, which we do, but they mean Pelargoniums, which we don't. I believe it is well over a hundred years since it was decided the two genera were distinct.
Flowering today:
Allium nigrum (?)
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Blooming today, and always welcome. The A. christophii seeds all over the place, but is such a lovely flower, plus the plant discretely dies down in the Summer, that you can only want more of them. The A. giganteum may be 'Globe Master', as it never sets viable seed.
Allium giganteum
Allium christophii
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As promised here a picture of Allium Purple Sensation.
This one was bought in England 2003. Then the one, which is in trade as Allium hollandicum [aflatunense],
with a paler color.
A picture of Allium aflatunense from Ruksans (1999)
And finally a cross of Allium Purple Sensation with Allium macleanii
Allium hollandicum Purple Sensation
Allium hollandicum [aflatunense]
Allium aflatunense
Allium Renaissance [Purple Sensation x macleanii]
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Luit,
excellent investigated as usual. :D Interesting to see the (marginal) differences.
Any significant differences i.e. in leaves among the 4?
Have you heart about the name changes, can you confirm it?
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As promised here a picture of Allium Purple Sensation.
This one was bought in England 2003. Then the one, which is in trade as Allium hollandicum [aflatunense],
with a paler color.
A picture of Allium aflatunense from Ruksans (1999)
And finally a cross of Allium Purple Sensation with Allium macleanii
Allium hollandicum Purple Sensation
Allium hollandicum [aflatunense]
Allium aflatunense
Allium Renaissance [Purple Sensation x macleanii]
Luit,
with your pictures it is now clear for me. I have A. hollandicum Purple Sensation in the garden.
Thank's for the pictures.
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Just a picture of my Allium stipineva (i.e. Allium stipitatum x nevskianum) growing in open ground and being an integrated part of my border.
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This one came into flower the last few days for the first time. I received it as Allium hirtifolium album which it obviously isn't, at least the album bit. The leaves are hairy (= hirtifiolium). I read in Nomenclator Alliorum that Allium stipitatum is maybe synonymous. Any comments?
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The allium season is in full swing: Allium atropurpureum
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I got this allium as A. olympicum last year but it looks a lot like A. sibthorpianum.... Can anyone confirm if this is olympicum or sibthorpianum?
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I don't think it is olympicum but I couldn't go further than that.
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I got this allium as A. olympicum last year but it looks a lot like A. sibthorpianum.... Can anyone confirm if this is olympicum or sibthorpianum?
Hello Wim,
sorry I can't help you. The only information I can give you is that in "Nomenclator Alliorum Allium names and synonyms- a world guide" both names comes from the Flora of Turkey Vol. 8 1984 Edinburgh Univ. Press. Perhaps someone has this literature and can send you a copy.
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Sorry for off topic
Stephen,
Can you please send me a mail directly. i.e. no through the forum.
I am presently unable to send to you via the forum and have not the time to fix that.
Göte
gote@svanholm.se
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Thanks Lesley and Ulli,
I'll see if I can find some more information.
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Some more alliums for today
1.Allium validum
2.Allium ramosum
3.Allium atroviolaceum
4.Allium dichlamydeum?
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Oleg,
when I look the first time on your Allium dichlamydeum? I think it is a wrong name for this species. But two years ago I have a comparable plant with this pale colour. So in my opinion it is possible that your species is Allium dichlamydeum.
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Thank you,Uli for comments. Hope it is the species.
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Allium kurtzianum in flower in the raised bed in alpine house.
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Mike,
wonderful plant of A. kurtzianum. Do you know the source of your plant ?
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Allium obliquum, blooming now.
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Uli
I have had this for over 20 years. Originally from Jack Drake as a single bulb. I used to grow it un-protected outside in a raised bed but it suffered badly in our damp conditions and it nearly died out. I now have it planted in a raised bed in an unheated alpine house and it grows very well. Generally fails to set seed.
Mike
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Yours Mike, is like one I had as seed back in 1966 from the ACW (Albury, Cheese, Watson) expedition to Turkey. At that time it came as Allium species. Then I understand it was labelled as A. olympicum but later as something else, I never found out quite what. It is very low like yours, that lovely pink and the foliage is bluish and almost prostrate, lying coiled on the trough surface but almost gone over by the time the flowers open. Mine does set a little seed but the seedlings are usually yellow-flowered and I take them to be hybrids with the nearby A. flavum minor. Like that one, it is sweetly scented, the flowers, not the foliage or bulbs which are typically onion. If anyone would comment on this, I'd be pleased.
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Mike,
That has to be one of the nicest Alliums I've ever seen. Such a good dense head of flowers. Beautiful! 8)
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Mike and Lori what wonderful Alliums - the A. kurtzianum is particularly desirable - I will definitely be on the lookout like others on this forum of seeds of this one which should grow here.
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This one is flowering at the moment - discussed it earlier here as I was surprised that it had survived the winter. Is it Allium nigrum?
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/P7062214_Allium_nigrum.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/P7062212_Allium_nigrum.jpg)
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/stevil2008_photo/P7062210_Allium_nigrum.jpg)
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Stephen, it looks like the one I grow as A.nigrum.
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Stephen,
I agree,
here is a link to the university of Osnabrück, where Mr. Friesen work. One of the authors of the "Nomenclator Alliorum ... "
http://images.google.de/url?source=imgres&ct=ref&q=http://www.bogos.uni-osnabrueck.de/Bilder/Site/Allium_nigrum.html&usg=AFQjCNEmVyhxlSuuUjbVn-nXYK88Usrcgw
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Thanks both!!
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Stephen, it would be great to see some of your garden edibles growing together - I imagine they must look fantastic. I love herbs and salad leaves and often grow them in between other plants to enjoy and pick!
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Stephen, it would be great to see some of your garden edibles growing together - I imagine they must look fantastic. I love herbs and salad leaves and often grow them in between other plants to enjoy and pick!
I'll try to post a few general pictures of my edible garden chaos on the Edible Alpines thread in the next few days...
-
Flowering now:
Allium farreri (?) from seed from Vojtech Holubec collected Sechuan, China 4100m.
Is this A.beesianum?
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Lovely, Simon. Rather different for an Allium? Nice striping.
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It had been flowering a few days before I took the picture and it was only then I saw the stripes. First year from seed too :)
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oooO, I really like that Allium, Simon, unusual colour and shape -well done ;)
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:) The flower umbel is about 2cm across on a 15m tall plant, so it's one of those plants where you have to kneel down to enjoy it.
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Flowering now:
Allium farreri (?) from seed from Vojtech Holubec collected Sechuan, China 4100m.
Is this A.beesianum?
I don't think it is A, beesianum, Simon. Your farreri ? is a lovely little thing.
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:) The flower umbel is about 2cm across on a 15m tall plant, so it's one of those plants where you have to kneel down to enjoy it.
Are 15m tall plants allowed on a rock garden forum?
How big are you then if you have to kneel down to enjoy it ;)
Certainly doesn't look like farreri (A. cyathophorum farreri) either - mine are almost over now (see below for a couple of pictures taken 5 minutes ago). You could try keying it out using Flora of China, in which case, good luck...
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Simon,
here are the Flora of China:
I copy you
A. beesianum
22. Allium beesianum W. W. Smith, Notes Roy. Bot. Gard. Edinburgh 8: 176. 1914.
Ŕ¶»¨ľÂ lan hua jiu
Bulbs clustered, cylindric, 0.5–1 cm in diam.; tunic brown, fibrous, subreticulate at base, sometimes laciniate. Leaves linear, shorter than scape, 3–8 mm wide. Scape (20–)30–50 cm, terete, covered with leaf sheaths only at base. Spathe 1-valved, deciduous. Umbel hemispheric, laxly few flowered. Pedicels subequal, shorter than to equaling perianth, ebracteolate. Perianth blue; outer segments narrowly ovate-oblong, 11–14(–17) 3–5.5 mm, margin entire, apex obtuse; inner ones slightly longer
and narrower than outer. Filaments subequal, usually ca. 4/5 as long as perianth segments, connate at base and adnate to perianth segments for ca. 1 mm; outer ones subulate; inner ones broadened at base, sometimes 1-toothed on each side. Ovary obovoid-globose, with concave nectaries at base. Style 2–3 as long as ovary; stigma punctiform. Fl. and fr. Aug–Oct.
Slopes, meadows; 3000–4200 m. SW Sichuan (Yanbian Xian),
NW Yunnan (Heqing Xian, Lijiang Naxi Zu Zizhixian).
And Aliium cyathophorum var. farreri
15. Allium cyathophorum Bureau & Franchet, J. Bot. (Morot)
5: 154. 1891.
±-»¨ľÂ bei hua jiu
Roots rather long, thick. Bulb solitary or clustered, cylindric; tunic grayish brown, fibrous, sometimes subreticulate. Leaves linear, usually shorter than scape, 2–5 mm wide, midvein distinct. Scape lateral, 13–15 cm, terete, usually 2-angled, covered with leaf sheaths only at base. Spathe 1(–3)-valved, persistent. Umbel hemispheric, laxly flowered. Pedicels 1–3 as long as perianth, ebracteolate. Perianth purple to dark purple; segments elliptic-oblong, 7–9 3–4 mm, apex retuse to obtuse or acuminate; inner ones slightly longer than outer. Filaments ca. 2/3 as long as perianth segments, connate into a tube for 2/3–3/4 their length; outer ones narrowly triangular; inner ones broadened at base, shoulder-shaped or triangular. Ovary ovoidglobose, tuberculate; ovules 2 per locule. Style shorter than ovary; stigma 3-cleft. Fl. and fr. Jun–Aug.
Slopes, meadows, rock crevices; 2700–4600 m. SE Gansu, S
Qinghai, W Sichuan, E Xizang, NW Yunnan.
1a. Perianth segments retuse to obtuse at apex; inner filaments shoulder-shaped at base ............................................... 15a. var. cyathophorum
1b. Perianth segments acuminate at apex;
inner filaments triangular at base .............. 15b. var. farreri
15a. Allium cyathophorum var. cyathophorum
±-»¨ľÂ(Ô-±äÖÖ) bei hua jiu (yuan bian zhong)
Allium venustum C. H. Wright.
Perianth segments retuse to obtuse at apex. Inner filaments shoulder-shaped at base. 2n = 16*.
Slopes, meadows, rock crevices; 3000–4600 m. S Qinghai (Yushu
Xian), SW Sichuan, E Xizang, NW Yunnan.
15b. Allium cyathophorum var. farreri (Stearn) Stearn, Bot. Mag. 170: t. 252. 1955.
´¨¸ĘľÂ chuan gan jiu
Allium farreri Stearn, J. Bot. 64: 342. 1930.
I agree with Stephen this is not A. cyathophorum var. farreri you have.
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Thanks! Obviously I meant 15cm, as even I am not that tall ;)
This was the listing in the seed list:
16 Allium farreri Alliaceae
China: Maniganggo, Sechuan, 4100 m, fine scree or grass,
dwarf chieve, 8-15 cm high, 0,5 mm wide lvs and stems, 2
cm umbells of dark blue fls, 2007, D
I originally ordered it as I didn't think A.farreri was blue, so I was intrigued.
I'll have ago with the key though, in the clear light of a new day!
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Allium commutatum in flower
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Allium sp.
I do not know this species, I have collected seeds in the region Puglia Italy
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Allium commutatum in flower
Nice one - a Halophytic Alliium! - unusual in its late flowering when it's leafless (like that other summer flowering Mediterranean bulbous plant I can't remember the name of at the moment) and its bulbs can disperse by floating off during winter storms - what's the chances of one floating onto my beach? (ref. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/DrumstickAlliums )
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Allium sp.
I do not know this species, I have collected seeds in the region Puglia Italy
No idea what this is, but it looks very similar to commutatum (a form of that species, perhaps).
A couple of Allium shots I took early April 2008 in your local wonderful Orto Botanico di Padova (the oldest university botanical garden in the world). The first is (so the sign told me) Allium suworowii and the second a very much more common Allium (although I've struggled to grow it!)
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Thanks Stephen
task has some problem in order to cross the strait of Gibilterra ;D
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Allium Meteoricum - 1-3 cm balls of pink flowers on 15 cm stems and is native to Turkey
A nice Allium that is not often seen and is usually expensive if available.
I find this very vigorous and it seeds around freely.
Eric
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Eric,
What a choice onion - interesting color!
Gerd
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Gorgeous, unusual colour Eric - and a lovely clump of Allium Meteoricum - you can see why it was given that name ;)
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Some more alliums for totay
1.Allium jajlae
2.Allium greiery
3.Allium sikkimense
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Here's a one-up for the poor maligned common chives (Allium schoenoprasum) and its numerous forms and subspecies, I offer this bunch of flowers (about 9 or 10 varieties) to all forumers who choose to holiday in the garden...
(they made an attractive decoration to the salad!)
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Lovely bunch of chives, Stephen.
Can one of you onion experts ID the following? It was grown from AGS seed sown January 2004, labelled Allium schoenoprasum 'Corsican White'. It was flowering in late August last year. It is a neat plant with flat leaves up to 15cm, with a spiral twist on the longer leaves. I did post it in the Identification thread last year but got no replies.
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Here's a one-up for the poor maligned common chives (Allium schoenoprasum) and its numerous forms and subspecies, I offer this bunch of flowers (about 9 or 10 varieties) to all forumers who choose to holiday in the garden...
(they made an attractive decoration to the salad!
With a bunch of chives like that on offer as flowers or a salad you could bowl me over Stephen :D
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Roma,
here is a link for you :
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Chives
I'm a bit confused, because I find two nursery lists, where this chive is described with white flowers. Hope Stephen knew more about this "cultivar".
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Flowering now:
Allium farreri (?) from seed from Vojtech Holubec collected Sechuan, China 4100m.
Is this A.beesianum?
Okay, I have tentatively identified my Allium as A.sikkimense.
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Simon,
then you have a very interesting form of A. sikkimense.
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It just didn't seem to key out as any of the other choices- but it is a hard key to use. It did look like this pic of A.sikkimense they showed http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87660&flora_id=800 (http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87660&flora_id=800) except mine has darker blue stripes ???
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Lovely bunch of chives, Stephen.
Can one of you onion experts ID the following? It was grown from AGS seed sown January 2004, labelled Allium schoenoprasum 'Corsican White'. It was flowering in late August last year. It is a neat plant with flat leaves up to 15cm, with a spiral twist on the longer leaves. I did post it in the Identification thread last year but got no replies.
I also received seed of Corsican White a few years ago and my result was much the same. I would guess what you have is a form of Allium senescens (again, Flora of China can help). In fact, seed exchange Alliums have so often turned in to Allium senescens look-alikes that I'm beginning to wonder....
I have three white forms, one dwarf, one slightly off-white (Wallington's White) and a white form of Allium schoenoprasum v. alpinum album. I've also seen white forms of the alvar chives, v. alvarense on Gotland in the Baltic. All 3 can be seen in my photo - I think you can see which is which.
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It just didn't seem to key out as any of the other choices- but it is a hard key to use. It did look like this pic of A.sikkimense they showed http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87660&flora_id=800 (http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87660&flora_id=800) except mine has darker blue stripes ???
My head still hurts from checking my Allium beesianum, A. sikkimense and A. cyaneum on Flora of China last year
This is the one I think I keyed out as sikkimense last year (received as beesianum).
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Allium cernuum is also relatively common in gardens, but it's one of my favourites. Here are various forms from the garden today:
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A few others:
1) Allium scorodoprasum jajlae
and then a couple of curiosities, both of which have formed bulbils in the inflorence:
2) Allium fistulosum(Welsh Onion) - haven't seen this before in this species although I've read that topset forming varieties do exist. I have many varieties of fistulosum and two have done this, both from the US - Stevenson's Multiplier and Franz Bunching (anyone else seen this?)
3) Allium senescens v. petraeum is also sprouting from the inflorescence with broad leaves...
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My head still hurts from checking my Allium beesianum, A. sikkimense and A. cyaneum on Flora of China last year
This is the one I think I keyed out as sikkimense last year (received as beesianum).
It does look similar to yours, but with slightly more pointed petals and a looser umbel.
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Flowering today:
Allium ovalifolium
Allium kermesianum (?)
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Does anyone have any ideas what this Allium is? It is not one I have bought and Ihave not noticed it flowering until this year. So it is either native to my garden and has only just recovered enough to flower or it is a cuckoo from a seed exchange.
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Simon can I suggest A. pallens,
It is native to Bulgaria and Greece too, it is closely related to A. paniculatum.
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Many thanks, Oron. :)
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I have visited Rhodos in May with my family. It was too late to see the main flowers, but we have found some Allium spec. It wasn`t possible to find information about the Allium spp. on Rhodos, but there shouldn`t be a lot: A. rhodiacum, A. archeotrichon, A. hirtovaginatum, A. chalkii, A. subhirsutum...
Here are picts of 2 species in flower, so I hope somebody can help with ID
Allium spec. 1 is about 1m tall
Allium spec. 2 reach only 10cm
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Gerhard,
The second species is probably A. junceus, a small species from the Eastern Greek Islands, Cyprus and SW Turkey.
The first photo is similar to A. ampeloprasum [ a common species,growing through all the E. Mediterranean] but diffcult to say without seeing the leaves and knowing if it produces bulbils.
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Some Alliums in my garden yesterday. Please give me any opinions on identification…
1) Allium ampeloprasum babingtonii: Babington’s Leek – a UK native
2) Allium ampeloprasum “Elephant Garlic” – I thought I’d lost this, but it seems to have just taken 2 or 3 years to get to a decent size again
3) Allium albidum – flowering for the first time; hopefully I’ve finally succeeded with this one?
4) Allium kermesianum – not sure that this one is correct?
5-6) Allium spp – I’ve had this one for a number of years. Small with white flowers. Any suggestions?
7) Allium sikkimense
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A few more:
1) Allium carinatum pulchellum
2) Allium carinatum pulchellum (from with bulbils)
3) Allium flavum tauricum – anyone know how to separate this from the species (NARGS seed, but not much colour variation in the flowers)
4) Allium cyaneum
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I haven't seen this before, but maybe it's normal - both of my flowering Allium scorodoprasum ssp scorodoprasum have put up a second tier with bulbils and flowers inn both tiers, just like the Allium x proliferum cultivar "Catawissa" does (Walkabout Onion -as it literally moves around, albeit very slowly)
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A couple of caucasian allium
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It is easy to see that Allium is a large genus with all these different ones posted.
Allium presumed to be acuminatum flowers for the first time - a really dark violet. = aciphyllum
Allium ovalifolium var leuconervum is aloready over when I write this.
Allium ovalifolium is still flowering. This year it is slightly pinkish.
The blue one I got as cyanemum but it is 30 cm high - Beesianum??
Sündermann once said to me that Allium flavum looks like a piece of fireworks. I think he was right.
Allium pulchellum (Allium carinatum L. subsp. pulchellum Bonnier & Layens) flowers at the same time and has a nice white form. they go well together.
Cheers
Göte
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Göte - The colour of the presumed Allium acuminatum is astounding. It reminds me of some of the newer Agapanthus selections. :o
You have a lovely collection Alliums there.
johnw - +32c threatened today.
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Allium presumed to be acuminatum flowers for the first time - a really dark violet
This dark violet Allium is a fabulous colour, Gote, the range shown is so varied in ways of flowering - hard to pick a favourite - Allium pulchellum is very attractive too.
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Oops Sorry :( NOT
acuminatum, aciphyllum. It does not fit the description entirely anyway.
The colour is difficult. It is actually slightly darker and just a little more towards red than it came out.
I am glad you appreciate it. I hope it will set seed for the exchange.
Göte
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A couple of caucasian allium
Thanks for the preview - I traded both of these with Sergey B in 2007 and are due to flower here next year...
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Nice Alliums, Gote - never seen aciphyllum before and I particularly liked the ovalifolium leuconervum - is that the nearest one gets to a variegated Allium? Hope you put seed of the ovalifoliums in to the exchange too....
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Stephen, I think I also grow some allium from your collection in Norway like A. uratense, A. murrianum...
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Grwinmg on limestone slopes near Sliven;
Allium moschatum
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Really pretty, Hristo, love the veining on Allium moschatum - next year I definitely want to grow more alliums
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Some alliums still brighten autumn days
1.Allium globosum ssp. psebaicum
2.Allium rupestre
3. An erreneous bulb received as Allium subhirsutum. Any ID ideas?
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Oleg,
could your wrong name allium be A. lenkoranicum ?
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Thank you, Armin. It's a hint. Seems similar. I'll look through pictures and descriptions of A.lenkoranicum.
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Oleg, the photos from your garden still show some lovely plants in flower - it must have been wonderful to come home from holiday to such a welcome :)
I still looks quite warm - how long does your autumn weather last?
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one of my favourite ones, miniature and autumn flowering : Allium callimischon ssp haemostictum
From crete
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/11/84/35/03/allium10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=634&u=11843503)
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Amazing and very nice Bulbissime ;)
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That's a stunner Fred :o
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Outstanding Fred 8) Really pretty markings - exceptional photo too ;)
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I'll second that - Outstanding!
What the uninitiated cannot see is that it is a really tiny flower, looking better in the photo than it does in the garden here. How hardy? I have grown it and lost it but I don't think the cold killed it. We get down to -8C.
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What the uninitiated cannot see
??? :o
is that it is a really tiny flower
but it still looks
8)
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What the uninitiated cannot see
??? :o
is that it is a really tiny flower
but it still looks
8)
Absolutely :)
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Quote
What the uninitiated cannot see
Yes. remarkable the intricacy of the flowers of this vert small allium... the flower head in Fred's picture will measure in total about 2cms from left to right :) Small, but perfectly formed.... and photographed!
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Small, but perfectly formed.... and photographed!
Indeed it is ;)
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You are a marvel with that camera Fred. Keep them coming.
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Fred,
I am late on this and I do not often comment, but wow to the allium and wow to the picture!!!
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Some alliums still brighten autumn days
3. An erreneous bulb received as Allium subhirsutum. Any ID ideas?
Oleg,
Looks to me like A. tardans.
A bit late for the party too... Fred, stunning photo of this little jewel.
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Many thank's :-[ :-[ :-[
And it's realy tiny, you're right, but really a jewel ::)
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Oleg, the photos from your garden still show some lovely plants in flower - it must have been wonderful to come home from holiday to such a welcome :)
I still looks quite warm - how long does your autumn weather last?
We seem to benefit from global warming. For the last 5 years there have been no frosts in September. October is usually an autumn month but cold. Usual time for snow is the beginning of November.
Thanks for the ID, Oron. I can't find a picture of A.tardans anywhere in the net
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Oleg
There is a photo of A. tardans [darker form] which I have posted earlier this year [January].
I don't know how to upload it on this thread, maybe Maggi can help us.
Any way if you write Allium tardans at the search box above you'll be able to see it.
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http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2881.msg67807;topicseen#msg67807 for main reference
and
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2017.msg56007#msg56007
;D
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My god, that was quick...
Thanks Maggi
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My god, that was quick...
Thanks Maggi
;D :D Would have been quicker, Oron, but the phone rang and I don't type well one handed! ;D
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Adding to this group of autumnal flowering Alliums, here is A. autumnale flowering today, it is endemic to Cyprus.
Not a top model but still intresting.
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Oron,
because of this not top model species, I like this genus. All the others can grow the drumball-species, but the little "jewels" make the genus so interesting.
Thanks for this posting.
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Thank you, Maggi and Oron. It's really quicker than I'm able to reach my PC
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Fred, superb photo. Thanks
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The last allium here: A. thunbergii album
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A lovely late Allium, Ashley, the stamens create the most wonderful effect 8)
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Nice to see a real Alium thunbergii - have tried from seed from various sources but so far I've been unlucky and it's always been an early flowering impostor. If anyone has seed/bulbs of the real thing I'd be very grateful!
Ashley: I see you are growing it in a pot - does this mean it's not hardy with you?
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Brillant collection of alliums in here.
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(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z264/plantsnobin/IMG_7822.jpg)
Stevil, this pic is of a cultivar, I also have plain species growing. Would you be interested in seed?
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Yes, please - I'll send you a PM!
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Thanks everyone for your comments.
Nice to see a real Alium thunbergii - have tried from seed from various sources but so far I've been unlucky and it's always been an early flowering impostor. If anyone has seed/bulbs of the real thing I'd be very grateful!
Ashley: I see you are growing it in a pot - does this mean it's not hardy with you?
Stephen, it's only in a pot because I didn't get around to planting it out yet :-[. It seems reasonably hardy though and came unscathed through last winter which was the coldest here for several years. Previously I kept it under glass and perhaps too dry but find that it does better outdoors.
Good that you found a possible source because mine is clonal and has never set seed for me. However send me a PM with your address if you'd like a bulb or two in due course.
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Flowering in the garden today
Allium callimischon ssp haemostictum
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Thanks Simon...I do LOVE that plant...
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Thanks, Carlo. I hadn't realised just how much it loved being in the garden until this year.
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I didn't know either. It would be good to get it out of my greenhouse where the smell nearly knocks me out at flowering time (mothballs).
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In that case (mothballs) leave it IN the greenhouse...may help to repel rodent invaders...
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I must admit to lusting after this plant (Allium callimischon ssp haemostictum) for some time. Have tried seed twice--once wrong plant, second time no germination. Anyone in the US with spare bulbs or seed?
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Are you not allowed bulbs or seeds from outside the US, Carlo?
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The last allium here: A. thunbergii album
Ashley, it is so fine ! here, two forms of thunbergii, one of the wild sent me by a japanese friend and an other in its dwarf form
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Flowering in the garden today
Allium callimischon ssp haemostictum
That's a great looker, Simon!
This little Allium crispum is just starting and I hope I get a chance to get a better pic which shows the crinkly edge to the inner petals!
[attachthumb=1]
cheers
fermi
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Not disallowed, Simon, but permits, etc. are required and for such a small transaction it is inconvenient for the person on the other end--even though I have the necessary permits.
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Carlo- that's a shame- I meant it when I said it was really happy here. It seems to be popping up everywhere from vole distributed bulbs.
Fermi, that's a little cutie. North American?
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Fermi, that's a little cutie. North American?
Hi Simon,
Yes, Allium crispum is in a group of similar looking onions from ? Western USA, I think.
Wanna trade seed? ;D
cheers
fermi
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Happily, Fermi. Anything here that has caught your eye?
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An Allium in flower here today. ACE#2430.
johnw
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Allium acutiflorum? I was given this curious Allium by someone in Northern Norway in the summer. Haven't seen an Allium that branches like this before. Any comments?
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The last autumnal Allium is in flower,
A. callimischon ssp. callimischon, from the Peloponnese, curiously it has its new leaves by now but the flowers born on last season's stalks which until 2 weeks ago seemed to be completely dry.
It differs from ssp. haemostictum from Crete by being a more robust plant and somewhat less striking flowers.
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A little allium in bloom today.
Allium virgunculae
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Very nice gem Michael. I hope that you can have seeds of it...!!! :P
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Dominique,if it don't I can let you have a few bulbs when it dies back, Remind me next April.
Edit I have made a note in my Forum wants list for you.
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Oron, Michael,
like your images of the tiny late flowering alliums. 8)
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Thank you Michael
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Very fine plant that I didn't know Michael.
Thank's for showing.
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Your Allium virgunculae so pretty grown like that, Michael - is it in your rockery?
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Nice looking Allium, Michael. Do you know where it comes from and how hardy it is? I've had seed of this, but I don't seem to have any record of what went wrong...(most probably not hardy here...)
By the way, has anyone visited the National Allium collection in Reading? Worth a visit?
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Robin,it is in a pot in the greenhouse,I have no room for any more in the garden unless I remove something.
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Stephen,I think it comes from Japan. I don't know how hardy it is as I have no space in the garden to plant it out.
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Can anyone verify if this is Allium
acutifoliumsorry, it was actually labelled A.acutiflorum? I grew it from seed from the AGS Seedex 2005
[attachthumb=1][attachthumb=2]
The foliage is somewhat leek-like!
[attachthumb=3]
This is the usually contorted A. obtusum I mean obliquum! just shaking off its sleeping-cap
[attachthumb=4][attachthumb=5][attachthumb=6]
cheers
fermi
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With me at present blooms Allium rupestre, collected in Georgia (Caucasus) at alt. 715 m, at Mcheta, just near Tbilisi, on mountain steppe formation. Still are blooming color forms of Allium thunbergii.
Janis
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Fermides your allium looks very much like ledebourianum. Lovely!
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Nice A. rupestre Janis. Thank you
I received 4 years ago Allium scilloides seeds. First flower now, but I find that it looks like Allium chamaemoly. Both are in bloom now, never so early for chamaemoly. I love this little Allium for its christmas blooming time.
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Right you lot, you have a lot to answer for ;D
I grow very few Alliums and apart from what I read and learn here I know little about them, but I have resolved to begin to put that to rights notwithstanding my lack of space to be involved in growing anymore genera ::)
I have seed of the following:-
Allium bolanderi
" cupuliferum
" elburzense
" nevskianum
Should I sow now and put them outside to the weather or should I wait until later in the new year please?
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notwithstanding my lack of space
Allium bolanderi
" nevskianum
Should I sow now and put them outside to the weather or should I wait until later in the new year please?
Hi David,
I've grown the above two from seed sown in autumn/winter and left outside with germination in the spring.
A. bolanderi is a little cutie and won't take up much room.
This is Allium sphaerocephalum
[attachthumb=1]
And this is A. flavum tauricum grown from NARGS Seedex seed a few years ago
[attachthumb=2]
cheers
fermi
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I agree- sow them so they get the full winter treatment in order to germinate in spring.
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Right you lot, you have a lot to answer for ;D
Allium bolanderi
" cupuliferum
" elburzense
" nevskianum
Should I sow now and put them outside to the weather or should I wait until later in the new year please?
The best time to saw Alliums is autumn. I'm leaving them in unheated greenhouse, but with you the best will be outside. When they will germinate - bring under glass to keep moisture under control. In first year good watering will form better size, but drainage must be excellent, too, especially for last two, cupuliferum is something more tolerant. Best grower is nevskianum - excellent here outside, too.
Janis
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Hello allium admirers,
I just signed up on this forum, and the Allium thread is terrific... can't wait to start participating.
I particularly liked seeing fine photos of Allium in Israel, where there are some fine species... tel-avivense, erdelii, hierochuntinum, libani, nigrum (Israel form has amazing black-red ovaries, different than European forms), carmeli, and the mind-blowing A. rothii. Does anyone have a photo of A. sannineum, a dwarf alpine species from Mt. Hermon with blue flowers; I have never seen a photo of it.
In earlier messages in this thread, I saw an unidentified yellow-flowered allium with very narrow tepals... looks just like Allium hookeri var. muliense, which has been going around as an Allium spa (species) from China for a few years.
To kick off my participation on this snowy day, here's a few photos of Allium crenulatum 'Olympic Sunset' flowering in my garden, a selection of a beautiful alpine allium from the Olympic Mts of Washington State, given to me by Jerry Flintoff. (Not sure if I'm doing the file attachment thing right, bear with me if photos don't upload correctly).
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Only one of 3 photos uploaded, so here's a second photo of Allium crenulatum 'Olympic Sunset' at earlier anthesis.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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To kick off my participation on this snowy day, here's a few photos of Allium crenulatum 'Olympic Sunset' flowering in my garden, a selection of a beautiful alpine allium from the Olympic Mts of Washington State, given to me by Jerry Flintoff. (Not sure if I'm doing the file attachment thing right, bear with me if photos don't upload correctly).
Excellent variety, Mark. Mine plants are much paler in color.
Janis
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Mark,
Welcome, hope you got my personal message to greet you?
To upload multiple images, click on the additional options button to display up to ten boxes to load extra pix.....
Here's a screen grab, which also shows you how to include an image in the body of your text.... you need the attachthumb= and a number( 1 to 10!) in square brackets.... where you want to p[lace the text.
[attachthumb=1]
Click on the pic to enlarge......
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Glad you made it over here, Mark and excellent picture to start with!
Here's a couple of pictures of hookeri I took in Southern Sweden last year.
The first was labelled var muliense in the Goteborg Botanical Gardens (I don't think it is though - sorry bad quality) and the other in Ĺke Truedssons garden in Malmö in Sweden. Ĺke told me that he had seen this species cultivated for food on a visit to China.
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Hi Stephen, glad I'm here too, it's been a long and wonderous trip (several hours perusing the SRGC site and threads... good stuff).
Your photo does indeed look like Allium hookeri. Per the Flora of China
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027488
the only difference between the two varieties is the flowers are white in the type species, and greenish yellow to yellow in var. muliense. This plant had been going around misidentified as Allium chienchuanense, but that species has oblong-elliptic tepals unlike the narrowly linear tepals on the subject allium.
Here's a close-up photo and a general view of my plants taken this year.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Well, Stephen, why am I not surprised to learn you had a hand in steering Mark in this direction? It is good to see him back "around" the SRGC after some time away.... wondering around lost, looking for alliums, no doubt? ;D 8)
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Mark,
welcome aboard. This is one of the most amazing forums I've ever encountered. You're gonna love it!
Nice clone of A. crenulatum!
Jamie Vande
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Glad to be aboard.
Being a "newbie" here, I wasn't sure how info in my profile would display. It appears that my website url didn't display. So, I'll add it to my signature below. Lots of Allium pics on my website if you're interested, although I have years more worth of photos and new pages planned that I haven't had time to do anything about it. If you haven't seen the wild color forms of Allium flavum var. tauricum that emerged in my garden after years of selection, take a look. To whet your appetite, I upload a few pics.
Who doesn't love orange alliums?
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And three more views of Allium flavum var. tauricum color forms. In the first one, is a beige-pink selection in the center, flanked by a typical yellow Allium flavum form, and the white spherical heads are hybrids between Allium albidum x senescens/nutans. In the upper right is a pale white, brown-tinged form of A. paniculatum.
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And these all started out from original yellow stock in various shades? Or do some of the other colours appear in nature as well? Great colour selection, and wonderful displays from each clump. I've been trying to avoid getting interested in Alliums (interested in too many other things already), but a colour range like that is attractive. I love the orange and the beige.
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Hi Mark,
Nice to see you here with your extraordinary range of A. flavum tauricum!
There's also a Thread on Juno Iris which I'm sure you will enjoy and contribute to!
cheers
fermi
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Hello Paul and Fermi,
Well, there's the European Allium flavum which is quite variable in itself, short to tall forms, green to silver leaf forms, and with flower color in varying shades of yellow, light to deep yellow, sometimes greenish yellow. The Turkish Allium flavum var. tauricum is yellow but variably lightly tinged with other colors, such as pink or brownish. Also, the stamens on var. tauricum are typically pink or violet, contrasting with the base yellow flowers.
Seed grown plants of Allium flavum var. tauricum from Turkey back in the early 1980s produced yellow slightly pink-tinged flowers. Jerry Flintoff, fellow Allium enthusiast in Seattle Washington, got a nice light orange-flowered seedling occur with green foliage, and he shared some bulbs with me. From there, it was just natural selection, year after year collecting seed and sowing it to see what happens. The seedlings started varying widely in color, lots of pastel shades at first, the colors intensifying in following progeny, but then a strong red-flowered seedling occurred. Growing on seedlings from the red-flowered seedling and other stronger color deviations eventually resulted in almost any color, from pure white, pale yellow, every pastel color imaginable, beige and tan, brownish things, lots of orange and orangish colors, melon colors, many pink shades, pure pinks, deep rose-pinks, beige-pinks, rose-reds, orange-reds, etc., and with growth forms that tend to be dwarf per Allium flavum var. tauricum (6-10"), but also tending to be highly silvered or glaucous in foliage, although green-leaved types do occur too.
Be sure to go to www.plantbuzz.com and check out the homepage link for the Allium flavum ssp. tauricum mega-galleries, lots of color forms shown there.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
http://www.plantbuzz.com
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Mark,
That is an incredible range of colours for one species. I grow only a couple of species, but that sounds like one I should be tracking down. Thanks for showing us. I'll have a look at your website at some point, but by the sounds of it I don't have time right now. ;D
I never realised just how many Allium species there were until I checked on the ICON quarantine database for importing seed into Aus..... while there are around 40 or so that are banned, there are nearly 250 on the allowed list (including flavum ssp tauricum). I knew there were a lot, but given there are probably a miariad of them that don't appear on that list, there are a LOT of different Allium species about. :o
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Mark,
fantastic side. What a variation in one species :o :o
Hope to see a lot of more fantastic pictures of this lovely genus.
The orange one is incedible. A warm orange :P
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Yes, a tremendous amount of range in color and form, quite surprising. There are also other influencing factors, Allium flavum var. tauricum has hybridized with A. kurtzianum (dwarf pink species from Turkey that has gone around misidentified as A. olympicum). Hybrids from this cross lead to rather dwarf plants, with more compact less effuse inflorescences, but with similar capacity to come in most any range of colors.
Here are two photos of a seedling that first occured in a friends garden (she had lots of both species that I had given to her). The hybrid is perfectly intermediate between the two species, flowering on stems 3-4" tall (7.5-10 cm). These two photos were taken in my garden, July 11, 2009.
In the first photo, the hybrid is in the upper foreground, a good clumping plant with compact heads of a warm and bright salmon pink. In front of it are a few heads of A. flavum var. tauricum in a lighter pink form.
The second image shows the same scene, but from a different vantage point.
I also upload a third photo of a mixed planting of Allium flavum var. tauricum, plus hybrids. The "tauricums" typically have lovely effuse heads of bloom, whereas the dwarf but floriferous medium pink one that dominates the lower right of the photo is another of the tauricum x kurtzianum types. Just look at the range of form, inflorescence size, color, etc.
What fun this group is, I feel like an evil scientist working in my mad allium lab at times.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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I don't usually get excited about onions (except fried, caramelised or as marmalade ;D) but I think the A. crenulatum is a real beauty, perfect for a trough perhaps?
Can anyone tell me the name of the little pink, fragrant species that was collected by Albury, Cheese and Watson in Turkey in 1966? I had it then just as Allium species and I think it may have had a couple of possible IDs since. Sorry, I no longer have the collection number or a picture at present. It's seedlings are usually, for me, yellow so I assume it hybridises with the nearby A. flavum minor.
And does anyone have a picture they could post here, of A. insubricum? I bought this recently.
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There might be any number of alliums collected by Albury, Cheese, Watson expedition to Turkey in 1966, but the small pink-flowered species that goes around as Allium ACW 2372 (later identified as A. kutzianum, but initially it got around misidentified as A. olympicum). The following link has some excellent photos by Mike Ireland showing Allium kurtzianum ACW 2372, a terrific allium. This is the species that I mention in my post above that hybridizes readily with Allium flavum and flavum forms.
http://botgard.bio.uu.nl/Temperate/index.php?gal=Bulbs&genus=Allium&all=
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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The following link has some excellent photos by Mike Ireland
..... another Forumist, of course!! 8) :)
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Oh thank you Mark, that's the one all right. I still have the original patch grown from ACW seed and it is the colour of the first picture, with just the slightest tinge of apricot in the pink, rather than the purer pink of the later pictures. That solves my little mystery of why the seedlings are usually yellow. I've had some pinks but never oranges. I'll know how to label it now. I remember reading in an old AGS bulletin that it was (then) identified as A. olympicum, so definitely the same plant. I'll use kutzianum of course. :)
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Glad it's the right one.
I take responsibility and credit over the years for trying to get the misidentification of Allium olympicum fixed. The true Allium olympicum has flat leaves, not strong fistulose leaves as in A. kurtzianum. I believe the ACW collection was from Mt. Ida in Turkey, which is the type location for A. kurtzianum. I have lots more info in my notes someplace, but I feel confident of the ID as Allium kurtzianum.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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And does anyone have a picture they could post here, of A. insubricum? I bought this recently.
This is what I have as insubricum. A question from me too - how does A. narcissiflorum differ? I've had seed of the latter several times and the resulting plants always look identical to my insubricum...
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The two species, Allium insubricum and narcissiflorum, are nearly identical, the major difference being that while the umbels are pendant or nodding in both species, they remain pendant in A. insubricum, but become erect when going to seed in A. narcissiflorum. There are other minor differences cited, but the nodding vs. erect characteristic seems the easiest to watch for.
Nice pics Stephen!
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Hi Stephen, here is an very old pic (slide) from A. narcissiflorum, wild in France, with more flowers than A. insubricum.
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Wow,Mark! I'm not the only onion farmer here
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Mark,
I'm attaching picture of dwarf beauty from Iran. May be you can identify it?
Janis
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Real beauty indeed Janis !!!
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Few more unidentified Alliums from Iran.
WHIR-034 and WHIR-048 seem to be identical, both has smooth leaves.
WHIR-031 by flowers seem to be same, but as you can see on picture leaves are very densely haired. All three are medium high with large flowerheads.
WHIR-s.n. - is dwarf but with large flowerhead sitting between leaves .
Janis
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Gorgeous, Janis.
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The two species, Allium insubricum and narcissiflorum, are nearly identical, the major difference being that while the umbels are pendant or nodding in both species, they remain pendant in A. insubricum, but become erect when going to seed in A. narcissiflorum. There are other minor differences cited, but the nodding vs. erect characteristic seems the easiest to watch for.
Thanks - that's what I've heard too, but I've never seen that on the plants I've grown nor in botanical gardens. I imagine the two are often confused.
Wonderful pictures of tauricum, which I've seen before on your web site. I remember seeing your pictures and getting hold of some seed from NARGS about 5 years ago, hoping for something similar. There was some variation as you can see (perhaps they were your seed?)
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Hi Stephen, here is an very old pic (slide) from A. narcissiflorum, wild in France, with more flowers than A. insubricum.
Thanks, Fred - that one looks quite different. Is the flower colour also lighter on narcissiflorum as in your picture? I also found this picture posted here by Gerd:
(http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1851.0;attach=74383;image)
I didn't realise it was a native in Western Europe. Where does it grow?
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In France, it grows in somes places in the south, in the mountains.
It's the same colour as in Gerd's pic.
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Has anyone tried crossing these species? With the often present fertility barriers in the genus, should they prove interfertile, these may well be better considered sub-species. Such a fine difference alone does not seem tenable to seperation as distinct species. Both are European, with A. insubricum being more northerly (Alps) and apparently connected to mountains rather than lowlands.
Mind you, so much about this genus I do not know, I just find there are an awful lot of extremely similar Alliums parading about with their own species epiphet. Sounds more like the result of non-coordinated research over the last century (or more).
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Hey Mark...glad to have you with us!
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Mark, I am glag too to have you in the forum. Thank for the pics. Janis too
Dom
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Hey Mark...glad to have you with us!
Carlo, Dom, Janis, and others... thanks for the welcome. This looks like a great forum. I have some information or clues on the Allium IDs above, will respond later on tonight, I have to go out for the day.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Mark and Stephen, thanks so much for the notes and pictures. I was told insubricum was similar to narcissiflorum. I have that from seed but not flowered yet and nor has the insubricum. Definitely something to look forward to.
I mentioned above that A. kutzianum was fragrant. Has anyone else noticed that? The foliage when crushed or injured is onion-like of course but the flowers are scented of lily-of-the-valley, not so strong as that but very pleasant indeed. Now you've mentioned Mt Ida Mark, that name rings a faint bell in my memory. I suppose I still have the field notes somewhere but let's face it, it was 43 years ago! :o
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This is what I have as Allium insubricum, grown from seed a few years ago.
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These nodding ones that you've all been posting look great. It certainly does add a different dimension to the Alliums. Are they as nice in person as they look in the pics?
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Hi Stephen, here is an very old pic (slide) from A. narcissiflorum, wild in France, with more flowers than A. insubricum.
This is what I have as Allium insubricum, grown from seed a few years ago.
Nice photos of Allium insubricum and narcissiflorum. I think the photos show well the differences between the two. I mentioned the most often cited difference, that the inflorescence of A. narcissiflorum become erect at late anthesis, but there are other differences.
Flower color is not really important diagnostically, in both species it is variable. Back in the 1980s when I lived in Seattle, Washington, I grew several color forms of both species, ranging from light pink, to deep reddish-purple (although it seems A. insubricum more commonly has the deeper color forms).
Allium narcissiflorum has slightly smaller flowers than insubricum, more openly campanulate too, and with potentially more flowers per head. Look at the foliage of the two species posted here, it's narrower in narcissiflorum... rather delicate, it is wider and more robust in insubricum. There are differences in bulb coats or tunics too, see Flora Europaea for details.
In cultivation it seems you have a higher chance of getting A. insubricum than true narcissiflorum, which is okay by me, as A. insubricum is a gorgeous species, as shown in Roma's photo. But of course, A. narcissiflorum is beautiful too. I fail miserably with both species in my hot and dry New England garden, still haven't found the right microclimate for either species.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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I mentioned above that A. kurtzianum was fragrant. Has anyone else noticed that? The foliage when crushed or injured is onion-like of course but the flowers are scented of lily-of-the-valley, not so strong as that but very pleasant indeed. Now you've mentioned Mt Ida Mark, that name rings a faint bell in my memory. I suppose I still have the field notes somewhere but let's face it, it was 43 years ago! :o
Hi Leslie. I'm an avid "sniffer"... always sniffing flowers, after all, it's part of their charm and character. I find that most alliums actually have very pleasantly scented flowers. In some, such as A. senescens and nutans, the flowers are sweet yet there's a hint of onion scent too, but overall the impression is one of "sweetness"... I love smelling allium flowers. Even with a tinge of alliaceous scent, not bad, and certainly the bees, wasps, moths, and butterflies love these nectariferous allium plants. Some Allium species have incredibly perfumed flowers, such as midwest American A. perdulce, or many Asian species such as A. darwasicum. As I recall, Allium kurtzianum has a nice fragrance, typical of many allium in general.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Having grown A. insubricum and A. narcissiflorum from seed ex exchanges on many ocassions I never got the real maccoys. Theys always turned out to be A. cyathophorum v. farreri.
I hope the situation has changed.
Mark - I wonder how hardy the ACE Alliums are - forrestii 4200m and nanordes 4200-4600m? Their roots are persistent here in pots and have an extremely short dormant period. Guess I should bite the bullet.
johnw
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Mark,
I'm attaching picture of dwarf beauty from Iran. May be you can identify it?
Janis
Hi Janis, it's a nice allium to be sure. I have been in recent correspondance with Dr. Reinhard Fritsch, who has basically taken over for Wendelbo in the understanding of Allium in Iran and neighboring territories. Much work has been done, and he recently shared with me several publications, the most important being: "NEW TAXA AND OTHER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE TAXONOMY OF ALLIUM L. (ALLIACEAE) IN IRAN by: R.M. FRITSCH and M. ABBASI", 2008, with 14-15 new species described in great detail based on living material of "type" specimens. One can't just use Flora Iranica, or other older regional floras, as so much new work is being done in these vast geographic areas to add to our understanding of the taxa in these areas.
Looking at that publication, with photos of each, your plant looks closest to Allium moderense R.M. Fritsch, species nova 2008. The detailed description seems to match too, with the exception of the stamen color... in your specimen the stamens are purple, in the new species A. moderense the stamens are described as white. Maybe Dr. Fritsch should be consulted. Where was you plant collected?
I'm not sure to what liberty I have in posting here information that Dr. Fritsch shared with me. Hopefully it's safe to show a photograph of one of the newly described species, Allium hamedanense, a spectacular dwarf species with dramatic blackish red flowers.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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My word! A. hamedanense is a beauty!
John, my seed exchange experience is the same as yours. Narcissiflorum always was cyathophorum v. farreri, a nice species but disappointing if masquerading as the other. My present seedlings are from one of the Czech collectors so I hope will be true. Insubricum is from a local source and time will tell.
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Having grown A. insubricum and A. narcissiflorum from seed ex exchanges on many ocassions I never got the real maccoys. Theys always turned out to be A. cyathophorum v. farreri.
I hope the situation has changed.
Mark - I wonder how hardy the ACE Alliums are - forrestii 4200m and nanordes 4200-4600m? Their roots are persistent here in pots and have an extremely short dormant period. Guess I should bite the bullet.
johnw
Yes, Allium cyathophorum v. farreri is the great usurper of many allium species in the seed exchanges Often when trying seed of Allium narcissiflorum, you'll get the usurper mentioned, or get Allium cernuum, haha.
ACE alliums forrestii and nanodes (note spelling on latter), are a couple I have lusted over for many years. Where did you get these? In particular A. forrestii is reported having a great range of flower color, including some deep maroon red colors.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Wonderful pictures of tauricum, which I've seen before on your web site. I remember seeing your pictures and getting hold of some seed from NARGS about 5 years ago, hoping for something similar. There was some variation as you can see (perhaps they were your seed?)
Stephen, nice bronzy-orange forms of Allium flavum v. tauricum. It is these slightly "off-color" forms, that are in the yellow range but are strongly tinged with copper, that please me most. My seed has gotten around, so it could be that the seed was from other NARGS members that are growing on seed that I occasionally contribute to NARGS.
While I'm here, let me indulge in just two more photos, each being seedling beds, each 2 years old, of mixed Allium flavum var. tauricum seedlings in 2002. The color range is amazing... pure fun. On a more serious note, 4 years ago when we had a 50-year record-breaking spring in terms of rainfall, even though I'm high on a hillside at about 500' above sea level, being over bedrock my garden seeped water well into the end of June, and I lost a huge amount of allium that year... even the raised beds wicked up the excess moisture and stayed way too wet... Allium flavum var. tauricum bulbs were dessimated that year. I lost many of the color forms that I had named, and must sort of begin again.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Very nice, Mark.
I only have the "school bus" yellow ones here at present but must request some seed from NARGS this year if they are available again!
cheers
fermi
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Mark,
Had you shared bulbs are seed about of those named ones, so that you could get pieces or progeny back from them? I must admit I always try to backup things with friends, so that if anything happens to mine I can ask for a division etc back from someone. It saves the whole "starting again" bit. If they're lost, that is just awful, as you have some amazing colours in there. :'(
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Mark,
Had you shared bulbs are seed about of those named ones, so that you could get pieces or progeny back from them? I must admit I always try to backup things with friends, so that if anything happens to mine I can ask for a division etc back from someone. It saves the whole "starting again" bit. If they're lost, that is just awful, as you have some amazing colours in there. :'(
Hi Paul. Yes, I did share plants with a local Allium fancier. She is older than I am (I'm 55, she's retirement age), but she decided to discontinue her nursery and sell her home, so that didn't help in terms of the plants. I also sent about 12 named color selections to Paige Woodward at Pacific Rim Nursery, and about 3 of the 12 can be purchased so far from that nursery. Just checked, and 2 varieties are available at:
http://www.hillkeep.ca/bulbs%20allium%20a-h.htm
Part of the problem for me were the demands of my full time job these past 20+ years, worked 11 hour days and with a 3-hour daily round trip commute (= minimal gardening time). But that's all changed now 2 months ago, when I was laid off after all those years (boy, all that hard work paid off ;-). So, now I'm enjoying the first time in 32 years of working continuously, being unemployed and perusing the wonders of modern-day internet botanizing... love it!
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Mark,
I'm glad you are at least possibly able to get a bulb or seed back from your originals, so that you don't have to start your breeding programmes again. I do so wish that we could order plants from some of the Northern Hemisphere nurseries..... they have such interesting plants. I don't know what we'd do without Marcus Harvey and a very few other sellers of rare and unusual bulbs and perennials. I think we'd all die of envy at the things we couldn't grow (it's already bad enough seeing so many things that are impossible to get here! ::)).
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Hi Janis, it's a nice allium to be sure. I have been in recent correspondance with Dr. Reinhard Fritsch, who has basically taken over for Wendelbo in the understanding of Allium in Iran and neighboring territories. Much work has been done, and he recently shared with me several publications, the most important being: "NEW TAXA AND OTHER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE TAXONOMY OF ALLIUM L. (ALLIACEAE) IN IRAN by: R.M. FRITSCH and M. ABBASI", 2008, with 14-15 new species described in great detail based on living material of "type" specimens. One can't just use Flora Iranica, or other older regional floras, as so much new work is being done in these vast geographic areas to add to our understanding of the taxa in these areas.
The publication NEW TAXA AND OTHER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE TAXONOMY OF ALLIUM L. (ALLIACEAE) IN IRAN by FRITSCH and ABBASI is apparently available on the Internet:
http://www.sid.ir/en/VEWSSID/J_pdf/80220080201.pdf (http://www.sid.ir/en/VEWSSID/J_pdf/80220080201.pdf)
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ACE alliums forrestii and nanodes (note spelling on latter), are a couple I have lusted over for many years. Where did you get these? In particular A. forrestii is reported having a great range of flower color, including some deep maroon red colors.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
Mark - These along with A. prattii and a species cw Yulong Shan above Xi Song,China 3500m to 30cm were sown in 1994 from the original ACE seed.
Sometime in the past I posted shots, hopefully in an Allium thread.
If someone is headed your way next autumn I will get them to post you copies in the USA.
johnw
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The publication NEW TAXA AND OTHER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE TAXONOMY OF ALLIUM L. (ALLIACEAE) IN IRAN by FRITSCH and ABBASI is apparently available on the Internet:
http://www.sid.ir/en/VEWSSID/J_pdf/80220080201.pdf (http://www.sid.ir/en/VEWSSID/J_pdf/80220080201.pdf)
That's useful, Knud, many thanks!
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ACE alliums forrestii and nanodes (note spelling on latter), are a couple I have lusted over for many years. Where did you get these? In particular A. forrestii is reported having a great range of flower color, including some deep maroon red colors.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
Mark - These along with A. prattii and a species cw Yulong Shan above Xi Song,China 3500m to 30cm were sown in 1994 from the original ACE seed.
Sometime in the past I posted shots, hopefully in an Allium thread.
If someone is headed your way next autumn I will get them to post you copies in the USA.
johnw
John, I can find only these references..... and one is just a "threat" to post pix!!
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2119.msg52241#msg52241
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2017.msg50068;topicseen#msg50068 threat.... but no pix!
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Mark - here are two of them.
Allium ACE#2394
Allium ACE#2430
johnw
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That last one looks like Allium hookeri that we were discussing a few days back...
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Stephen - Indeed, thanks. The colour is off on 2430 as it was under fluorescent lights. It was close to a slightly greenish
dirty white as I recall. That v. muliense is quite something.
Aaron id'ed the other as prattii.
johnw
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I took the following picture in Gřteborg Botanics. It was labelled Allium bulleyanum - just wanted to check my understanding that this is a synonym for wallichii? It seems to be quite a variable species...
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I took the following picture in Gřteborg Botanics. It was labelled Allium bulleyanum - just wanted to check my understanding that this is a synonym for wallichii? It seems to be quite a variable species...
Nice looking allium, look at all those fat buds.
Just checked Flora of China, the name bulleyanum is indeed a synonym of A. wallichii var. wallichii... look at this long list of synonyms: Allium bulleyanum Diels; A. bulleyanum var. tchongchanense (H. Léveillé) Airy Shaw; A. feddei H. Léveillé; A. liangshanense Z. Y. Zhu; A. polyastrum Diels; A. praelatitium H. Léveillé; A. tchongchanense H. Léveillé; A. wallichii var. albidum F. T. Wang & T. Tang; Nothoscordum mairei H. Léveillé.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Mark - here are two of them.
Allium ACE#2394
Allium ACE#2430
johnw
Stephen - Indeed, thanks. The colour is off on 2430 as it was under fluorescent lights. It was close to a slightly greenish dirty white as I recall. That v. muliense is quite something.
Aaron id'ed the other as prattii.
johnw
John, do you have a photo that shows more of the foliage on the one identified as A. prattii. It's another very variable species, including the foliage shape, although typically it's fairly long and linear. The flower color is described as "purple-red to pale red, rarely approaching white". Take a look at the Flora of China description of A. prattii, there's a line drawing link, and 3 photograph links. I'm not doubting the ID as being A. prattii, but I have found trying to key the 8-10 species of broad-leaved Allium in China rather difficult. I like the pink stamens in your plant, very pretty.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027521
Here's a link to a page on my website showing what I identified as Allium prattii. Bulbs in from Chen Yi identified as A. aciphyllum (not!), ended up as two different species, a red-flowered Allium prattii, and a white-flowered Allium ovalifolium var. ovalifolium.
http://www.plantbuzz.com/Allium/Gallery/summer/im_Allium_prattii.htm
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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So my seedlings of Allium wallichii may not be black after all? though the plants from which the seeds were taken were black, or extremely dark. (Anne W, have you the picture again? As always my Search has produced nothing at all. :'()
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For what it's worth, here are some "ugly" leaves and sign for A. prattii taken the same day as the bulleyanum in Gřteborg:
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Talking about Allium prattii and a small group of allied Chinese wide-leaf to hosta-impersonating allium species, one that I got from Darrell Probst that he collected in China, doesn't cleanly fit into any of the described species in Flora of China, but comes closest to Allium listera. It's a beautiful species, and unlike prattii and ovalifolium that never make seed for me, A. listera is reliably fertile. I upload one picture, to see a small gallery of 3 plant views and a foliage view, try this link:
http://www.plantbuzz.com/Allium/Gallery/summer/im_Allium_listera.htm
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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So my seedlings of Allium wallichii may not be black after all? though the plants from which the seeds were taken were black, or extremely dark. (Anne W, have you the picture again? As always my Search has produced nothing at all. :'()
I sometimes wonder what you do with that search button, Lesley!
Here you go...... one result from this Forum andtwo boskers, including Anne's pix from the old forum:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3085.msg75508;topicseen#msg75508
old forum
http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/283/854.html Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 11:09 pm:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/283/38396.html Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 6:24 pm:
And for those new readers who have no idea what the "Old Forum" is, it is the archived fore-runner of this Forum, accessed here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi?pg=topics .....and it is searchable, trust me! :D
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After being laid off a couple months back, I find myself with lots of time to cruise the web, be more active on forums, and do some "digital botanizing". I've stayed away from social networking sites for years, I see things like Facebook as "odd" at best, or a real time-sink, but I went ahead and started up my FaceBook page, where one can occasionally stumble across wonderous things. The following photo was in a photo gallery from someone in Iran, travel log sorts of photos in the Alborz (Elburz) Mts of NW Iran, the one plant picture he knew to be an Allium but didn't know which one. I asked Dr. Reinhard Fritsch what he thought it was. He believes it looks like an alpine form of Allium derderianum.
To compare with regular A. derderianum, and several other of these showy dwarf Alliums, here's a PDF link to 5 allied species in neighboring Armenia, with excellent line drawings of each.
Allium sect. Acanthoprason (Alliaceae) in southern Transcaucasia: a survey, with the description of two new species.
http://www.bgbm.org/willdenowia/w-pdf/w30-1Agababian+Oganesian.pdf
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Nice onion!
It's not good news to be laid off, Mark, but hearing what your past work routine has been, it seems to me you could do with a rest.... and it's not as if you are wasting time.... you are seeking info and spreading the word.... noble pursuits, in my view!
I do hope you get another job....if that's what you want.....but knowing how life has been for us since Ian had to retire because of ill health in 1997 and my being made redundant a year later, I must say that this new life is so much better...now Ian's health is pretty stable (touch every kind of wooden object in the room ) and we've found that we get along quite well on a small income but have so much more freedom to do as we please. I hope things turn out well for you!
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Thank you dear Maggi, to the rescue as always. It was the last link that provided the pic I wanted. Anne very kindly sent me some seed and these germinated well. They haven't flowered yet but are growing in strength and size yearly. I see Anthony mentions that they should come true to colour. I DO hope so. :D
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Thank you dear Maggi, to the rescue as always. It was the last link that provided the pic I wanted. Anne very kindly sent me some seed and these germinated well. They haven't flowered yet but are growing in strength and size yearly. I see Anthony mentions that they should come true to colour. I DO hope so. :D
I understand your hopes.... the VERY dark ones are so yummy! 8)
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Good lord, it appears we've got to start a "job hunters" topic. I find myself in the same predicament as Mark and not as nice a one as Maggi and Ian. Not a good time of year to be looking for a position--or a good year for that matter.
And I won't see any alliums in bloom outside this forum until next season!
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Mark, you have succumbed to Facebook ( admittedly it brought us an interesting link) and Carlo is resorting to Twitter.... now, I know you Guys are having troubles... and heaven knows I wish you, and everyone else in your position, good health and full employment in 2010.... but don't you feel you must keep up certain standards even in these trying times?? I mean, Facebook and Twitter..... Really! :o :P :-X
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Mark - Here are the leaves of what was id'ed as prattii. Note the date. From your pix and Stephen's the leaves look too wide for prattii. Also a very bad shot of the base, burgundy coloration.
These may very well be the roots.
johnw - temp plummeting, already -4c at 8pm
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Mark - Here are the leaves of what was id'ed as prattii. Note the date. From your pix and Stephen's the leaves look too wide for prattii.
It might be too tough to tell. I've had plants from collected locations that simply fall through the cracks, they don't meet any of the standard species descriptions. Allium prattii is listed as having leaves that can be elliptic, and up to 7 cm wide, so maybe this one remains a mystery. It is also possible that the whole group of wide-leaved Allium in China needs a more thorough review based on live specimens, such as what Dr. Fritsch has done in Iran, to really understand what we're looking at, possibly resulting in new species.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Mark, you have succumbed to Facebook ( admittedly it brought us an interesting link) and Carlo is resorting to Twitter.... now, I know you Guys are having troubles... and heaven knows I wish you, and everyone else in your position, good health and full employment in 2010.... but don't you feel you must keep up certain standards even in these trying times?? I mean, Facebook and Twitter..... Really! :o :P :-X
Don't get me going on Facebook... I'll try and stay on-topic with Allium from this point moving forward. But yes, I succumbed to FaceBook, joining 350 million people in the world who participate. I could write endless blogs and tirades about how I feel about FaceBook, why is it that such a huge volume of people in the world have joined in on this mediocre "Edsel" of "social networking", the word "Edsel" in reference to a hugely unsuccesful American car in the late 1950s ("due to it's disastrous history, the word "Edsel" has become synonymous with failure"). As an IT guy (Information Technology), I've experienced all levels of software and internet ventures, and my take on it is Facebook gets a low grade of "C" from me, surprisingly under-developed software full of bugs, interface flaws, limitations, memory leaks that eventually toasts the browser, lots of quirks, and an odd almost perverse look into other people's lives and friends that I don't necessarily want to know about, and yet the world flocks to it. And at the same time, there are some intriguing aspects of live information updates and interaction occuring through FaceBook.
Moving on, it seems in this world you're nobody unless you have a FaceBook page... all major companies now have a FaceBook representation, as well as Twitter (I draw the line at Twitter, I will never "tweet"). Even organizations like North American Rock Garden Society now have a FaceBook presence.
I'd much rather belong to something like this forum, and excellent implementation to communicate our collective true love: it's about the plants. Hurrah to SRGC!
Sorry about the off-topic post, let's move on.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Another unidentified Allium from Iran S of Tazeh Qal’eh vilage in Kopet-dag. On first picture you can see how happy I'm finding this original plant (John Inghams foto) - on next foto nice leaves of not flowering plant and on third its flowerhead (stem height ~40 cm).
Janis
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Janis, another nice Iranian allium, but as usual, so hard to put a name to them. I want to go back to your previous posting of 4 beautiful Allium images, several of which look similar to something I grew from seed. I asked Dr. Fritsch what he thought of my plant, and I will post my photos and his response in a separate message.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Here are some photos of an Allium I grew from seed, took 7 years to flower, flowered in 2008 but didn't flower in 2009. It's a beauty to be sure. I lost the label for the plant (crows pull them out), but as best I could tell from the keys and looking at photos, it looked very similar to a photograph in Janis' Buried Treasures book of Allium elburzense. It appears that my plant is not elburzense, but perhaps closer to A. ellisii. The first 3 photos show the plant at peak flowering, the 4th photo shows the inflorescence at late anthesis.
Here's what Dr. Fritsch had to say about this allium:
[It]is certainly no A. elburzense Wendelbo. I know this species from type location, it owns an ovary glossy like glass and recurved tepals. But I have no other name for your plant. It comes close to A. ellisii but the filaments are somewhat too long. Do you know the offspring of this accession?
I found a large and variable population of your "not-Allium elburzense - looks like A. ellisii" taxon growing in the botanical garden of Tehran belonging to the Research Institute of Forests and Rangelands. But nobody was able to find out the wild offspring of these plants. Perhaps even your plants trace back to the population in Tehran.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
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Very nice to be sure, but I am still a firm believer in the Allium (section Acanthoprasum) continuum.
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Allium prattii is listed as having leaves that can be elliptic, and up to 7 cm wide, so maybe this one remains a mystery. It is also possible that the whole group of wide-leaved Allium in China needs a more thorough review based on live specimens, such as what Dr. Fritsch has done in Iran, to really understand what we're looking at, possibly resulting in new species.
Mark McDonough
Mark - Its label will revert to species unkown. Thanks for the comments.
johnw
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Allium derderianum is stuning !!
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Mark, let me introduce you to the "Moan, Moan, Moan....." thread. Some of us could moan as an Olympic event. ;D
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Well, it seems that what many have been calling Allium winklerianum may not actually be that species.
I asked Dr. Fritsch to take a look at the Pacific Bulb Society photo galleries, specifically on Allium:
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Allium
He felt that they mostly looked correctly identified, but challenged the photos of Allium winklerianum. He said they look more like Allium pseudowinklerianum, then sent a photo of A. winklerianum representing the type species. I have posted photos of what I thought was Allium winklerianum (is probably pseudowinklerianum, published by Dr. Reinhard Fritsch in 2005), and a photo of the true type-collection of winklerianum from Dr. Fritsch. Regardless of the name, it's a beautiful species that is intensely fragrant.
Bulbs are available at Pacific Rim Native Plant Nursery (some of my Allium flavum var. tauricum color forms available there too, check them out, they carry good stuff).
Pacific Rim Native Plant Nursery
http://www.hillkeep.ca/bulbs%20allium%20i-z.htm
Pacific Rim description: Native to NW China, Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. Our plants descend from material collected by Jánis Rukšáns in the Fergana Range of Kyrgyzstan and received from Arnis Seisums in 1997 and 1998.
I wrote on my website in 2002 "I like this species a lot, as the flowers are an intense, luminous pink-purple, as well as heavily perfumed like sugar candy. My two daughters confirmed that the flowers smell like "Pez" or "Smarties", popular hard sugar candies in the United States.
It's so hard to keep up with all these updates, and recently published updates are hard to find... thus far, I can't find the document where A. pseudowinklerianum is published on the web, I may have to pester Dr. Fritsch again.
FYI: I no longer have Allium "winklerianum", a casualty of the record-breaking rainfall of spring and early summer (June) in 2005, or was it 2006, where lots of bulbs perished.
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Wow Mark, I love the broad leaved species in the background. The leaves and buds themselves look really effective.
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Wow Mark, I love the broad leaved species in the background. The leaves and buds themselves look really effective.
Thanks Paul. What you're seeing are several cultivars of Allium karataviense. It's amazing that the same ol' greyish-mauve form has been around forever, yet in the wild the species is remarkably variable. Finally, some fine forms are available. Here are pictures of cultivars 'Red Globe' with ginormous (reference the movie Elf) flower heads of brooding red (an expensive thing to get). It is larger-flowered than the recently named subspecies var. henrikii (named for Henrik Zetterlund) which has large heads of more rosey-red flowers. The wonderful white 'Ivory Queen' is available wherever Dutch grown bulbs are sold and dirt cheap (1/2 a dollar in the US)... buy a bunch next year. Not only is the foliage great, for a long season the seed heads are quite ornamental too. The photo of A. karaviense 'Ivory Queen' was taken just before July 2003, with foliage and seed heads still making a statement in mid-summer.
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Mark,
if they were available here they wouldn't cost just half a dollar! >:( ;D
cheers
fermi
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Some of Iranian Alliums I succeed to identify in situ, some only in home. Here first 3 pictures of Allium breviscapum near Kuh-e Alvand where it is growing on steep slopes covered with small flat boulders and dwarf spiny shrubs at 2830 m altitude. Still plenty of snow around but we succeed to go there only because of very early spring opening the pass. On last two pictures the same plants blooming in my collection (not very good pictures).
Janis
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Here are pictures of cultivars 'Red Globe' with ginormous (reference the movie Elf) flower heads of brooding red (an expensive thing to get). It is larger-flowered than the recently named subspecies var. henrikii (named for Henrik Zetterlund) which has large heads of more rosey-red flowers.
Mark, 'Red Globe' is named by me and Henrik and it isn't clone but seed raised strain. It is the name given to this Allium before I finally decided that it must be named as subsp. henrikii of Allium karataviense. It is very constant from seeds, something variable in height and in shade of red. Here I'm attaching pictures of it in wild (scan from photo as at that time I hadn't digital camera), in garden and one of most unusual selection from its seedlings selected 3 years ago which I named 'Double Joy'. It is the first Allium with double flowers (may be I don't know about others) and excellent increaser as instead of seeds it makes bulbils.
Janis
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Janis,
I love the twisty foliage of some of them. Beautiful.
Mark,
Thanks for the info on the lovely leaves. I think I will have to look out for seed from that species to try it. I have a vague feeling that is one of the few that I have tried from seed, but that I was unsuccessful. With those wonderful red flowers (and the other colours you show too, for that matter! :o) it would be well worthwhile trying.
Thanks for taking the time to upload pics and information, both yourself and Janis. 8)
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What fantastic pictures :P :P
all this superb species at this time of the year, with the snow outside.
Janis is A. breviscapum in your new stock list ? Is this list available per Mail ?
Mark in the pictures of yesterday I see that you covered the ground with bark. Why do you use bark for the covering ?
Thanks a lot Uli
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Has anyone here experience with Allium grayi (I think A. macrostemon is a synonym)? I'm particularly interested in this species as it is a fairly important edible onion in the Far East (Korea and Japan), collected from the wild and cultivated. It's also apparently cultivated in the US on a small scale in the US for the Korean community.
Looking at Korean and Japanese sites, it seems to be a bulbilliferous species (perhaps similar to our Allium oleraceum/vineale and hence potentially invasive in a garden)(Flora of China confirms this).
I am also very keen to get hold of bulbs, bulbils or seed. I doesn't seem to be available in the UK (Plant Finder). Have found seed offered on a Korean site, but difficult to order ....
I had A. macrostemon v. uratense once (I think from Berkutenko), but I'm not sure what happened to it.
How hardy is grayi/macrostemon?
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What fantastic pictures :P :P
all this superb species at this time of the year, with the snow outside.
Janis is A. breviscapum in your new stock list ? Is this list available per Mail ?
Mark in the pictures of yesterday I see that you covered the ground with bark. Why do you use bark for the covering ?
Thanks a lot Uli
No, A. breviscapum will be available after 3-4 years only - when its seedlings will reach flowering size if I still will be in business. On picture from nursery you can see all stock what I have at present. My new catalogue is almost ready - now must to shorten it for 6-7 pages. In January I will send text part of catalogue to you and others who will be interested by e-mail.
Janis
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Janis,
I love the twisty foliage of some of them. Beautiful.
Paul, many plants with beautifully twisted leaves in cultivation aren't such. I suppose it is caused by temperature regime during leaf development in wild and in cultivation. I noted this between Ornithogalums, too.
Janis
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Some of Iranian Alliums I succeed to identify in situ, some only in home. Here first 3 pictures of Allium breviscapum near Kuh-e Alvand where it is growing on steep slopes covered with small flat boulders and dwarf spiny shrubs at 2830 m altitude. Still plenty of snow around but we succeed to go there only because of very early spring opening the pass. On last two pictures the same plants blooming in my collection (not very good pictures).
Janis
Very nice to be sure, but I am still a firm believer in the Allium (section Acanthoprasum) continuum.
I will second Simon's endorsement of Allium section Acanthoprasum, so many wonderful variations. Janis, your Allium breviscapum plants looks fantastic, interesting in the wild, but as seems to be the case, even better and more floriferous under cultivation. I wish more of these "Acantho alliums" were available.
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Allium karataviense henrikii Double Joy looks to be making seed...? Or are these bulbils forming in place of seed?
Nice for a double form to oblige in that fashion.
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What fantastic pictures :P :P
Mark in the pictures of yesterday I see that you covered the ground with bark. Why do you use bark for the covering ?
Thanks a lot Uli
Good question about the bark mulch. Not my first choice, it was an inexpersive act of desperation two years ago when my garden was being featured on a PBS (Public Broadcasting System) TV show, and I had to act quick to clean up the garden and make it presentable. I had a pile of well-composted bark mulch at hand. Previously, where I hadn't used any mulch at all, some parts of the garden were lost after being utterly taken over by weeds. Until my recent unemployment, I was away from my yard from 6:45 AM until ~8:00 PM each day, virtually no time to garden and do things right.
In my Allium beds I avoid mulch for the smaller bulbous sorts, as it promotes rot around the crown of the plants. I have lost a lot of Allium flavum var. tauricum because of the bark mulch. It should all be done with a good gravel mulch, and I always tell myself, when I have time to redo major parts of the garden, then I will use a good gravel mulch. On the other hand, I've had great success using decomposed pine bark mulch on my beds where I grow crocus, frits, tulipa, etc. In partcular, sowing crocus seed directly into the mulch, loosely scratched in with the sandy soil beneath, has produced wonderful results.
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Mark, 'Red Globe' is named by me and Henrik and it isn't clone but seed raised strain. It is the name given to this Allium before I finally decided that it must be named as subsp. henrikii of Allium karataviense. It is very constant from seeds, something variable in height and in shade of red. Here I'm attaching pictures of it in wild (scan from photo as at that time I hadn't digital camera), in garden and one of most unusual selection from its seedlings selected 3 years ago which I named 'Double Joy'. It is the first Allium with double flowers (may be I don't know about others) and excellent increaser as instead of seeds it makes bulbils.
Janis
Thanks Janis, I have always wondered about the origins of 'Red Globe'. I must say most pictures I've seen of it look a rosy-red, although your 1st photo of plants in situ seems a darker maroonish-red similar to my plants, although much smaller heads compared to the enormous heads of my plants in cultivation. Also, pictures of ssp. henrikii I've seen show foliage that is less robust that my cultivated plants, and also with leaves more ascending. I suppose, like your photos of Allium akaka in your book, where you show wild plants, then gorgeous FABULOUS specimens of A. akaka flowering under cultivation where they have much larger denser inflorescences, that the difference might indeed be because of more favorable conditions under cultivation.
Arnis Seisums sent me 3 collected forms of Allium karataviense, all very different, two of which approach ssp. henrikii... sort of. It seems that karataviense is wildly variable... just look at these three. Here is the collection info, I'll see if in my notes I can correlate which collection belongs to which picture. Regrettably, the aforementioned super wet spring here 4 years ago, did these forms in. I'm particularly sorry to have lost the deep rosy-red one on short stems.
1. S. Tajikistan, W part of Darvas m. range, nr. village Lol
2. Uzbekistan, Tschatkal range, vicinity 127 km from Taschkent to Kokand, AR7A 00-34 (or 37)
3. Uzbekistan, C. part of Kurama range, valley against Angren town, SAVV 95-25
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Has anyone here experience with Allium grayi (I think A. macrostemon is a synonym)?
Looking at Korean and Japanese sites, it seems to be a bulbilliferous species (perhaps similar to our Allium oleraceum/vineale and hence potentially invasive in a garden)(Flora of China confirms this).
Hi Stephen, I've had seed of A. grayi a couple times, never had any results. I do have a form of Allium oleraceum from Richard Dadd, collected in the Atlas Mts of Morocco. It has dull coppery color flowers and lots of bulbils. Doesn't show much ambition to take over although it can spread mildly, unlike A. carinatum, which I pull out (then bag up in the trash) whenever I see it blooming. I have an interesting form of Allium "kochii" (one of dozens of synonyms for forms of A. vineale), coll. Isle of Usedom, Baltic coast of Germany. It has tiny, dark red-purple flowers intermixed with bulbils in the inflorescence, atop 2' stems. It has never shown any signs of increase or weediness, although regular A. vineale is a terrible introduced weed in much of the USA.
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Allium karataviense henrikii Double Joy looks to be making seed...? Or are these bulbils forming in place of seed?
Nice for a double form to oblige in that fashion.
Yes Maggi, it forms bulbils instead of seed and I have3 now 2 years old "bulbilings" growing up.
Janis
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I love the twisty foliage of some of them. Beautiful.
There are some truly twisty or coiled-leaf species of allium (such as A. stocksianum; would love to get it one day). For the time being, I'm content with my "curly chives", forms of A. schoenoprasum with strongly coiling octopus-like foliage masses, particularly strong (to nearly prostrate) in the early spring. See this gallery for several such twisty chives:
http://www.plantbuzz.com/Buzz/PBS/im_schoeno_gal.htm
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Thank you, Janis :D
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Arnis Seisums sent me 3 collected forms of Allium karataviense, all very different, two of which approach ssp. henrikii... sort of. It seems that karataviense is wildly variable... just look at these three. Here is the collection info, I'll see if in my notes I can correlate which collection belongs to which picture. Regrettably, the aforementioned super wet spring here 4 years ago, did these forms in. I'm particularly sorry to have lost the deep rosy-red one on short stems.
1. S. Tajikistan, W part of Darvas m. range, nr. village Lol
2. Uzbekistan, Tschatkal range, vicinity 127 km from Taschkent to Kokand, AR7A 00-34 (or 37)
3. Uzbekistan, C. part of Kurama range, valley against Angren town, SAVV 95-25
Alliums usually improve much by size under cultivation and many start to increase by splitting.
Sample #1 from S. Tajikistan is unknown to me, I didn't grow it.
Sample #2 from Tschatkal range is collected during our common trip - correct abbreviation for our common CA trips is ARJA - Ar-nis Ja-nis, first two ciphers mean year, second two is aquisition number. Correct number is 0034. It was collected at Karanchitogai, and it is medium sized population.
Sample #3 from Kurama is collected by S-eisums A-rnis & V-iktor V-oronin in 1995, I had leg problems (strong pain in knees) and couldn't walk in mountains this year, so was forced to return flight ticket. It is the best red colored form of typical karataviense. It is offered in my catalogue as 'RED GIANT'. In cultivation it can reach gigantic size - in spring 2005 the leaves were as large as two A-4 format pages! Well reproduce itself from seeds.
I only once met in wild form with larger and even darker, sumething purple-red flowers - at Chasavlisai not very far from Taschkent (ARJA-0073).
We collected several red karatavienses but difference between subsp. typica in wild and subsp. henrikii in wild is just in the length of flower stalk. Typical karataviense in wild allways has sitting between leaves flowerhead, in subsp. henrikii it is pushed high up. In garden stalks sometimes are longer but never so long as in henrikii.
Janis
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Thanks Janis,
Excellent information. I'd like to see more and more collected forms become available in the future. Do you know the origins of 'Ivory Queen'? It's such a bright clean white, the foliage also very silvery and light color without any of the typical purple pigmentation.
Doing some browsing, here are some photo links to a Russian site showing even more diversity of Allium karataviense:
Tall red robust A. karataviense
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/36974.html
Flowering plants. Tashkent region., G. Gazalkent, in culture.
Monster A. karataviense seed head, in situ in Southern Kazakhstan
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/4097.html
Compound fruits (diameter about 10 cm). Southern Kazakhstan, Mount Karakus. May
(notice the spiders)
Allium karataviense foliage, strongly acuminate red-lined leaves
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/3358.html
The plant on the scree, the eastern slope of the dry valley. Tien Shan Mts.
Zhetyzhol. 23/04/2006
Allium karataviense seed heads, in situ.
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/3382.html
Fruiting plants. Southern Kazakhstan, Mount Karakus. May 7, 2007
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Good question about the bark mulch. Not my first choice, it was an inexpersive act of desperation two years ago when my garden was being featured on a PBS (Public Broadcasting System) TV show, and I had to act quick to clean up the garden and make it presentable. I had a pile of well-composted bark mulch at hand. Previously, where I hadn't used any mulch at all, some parts of the garden were lost after being utterly taken over by weeds. Until my recent unemployment, I was away from my yard from 6:45 AM until ~8:00 PM each day, virtually no time to garden and do things right.
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Mark,
thanks for these information. I ask because I want to build a little rock garden / bulb bed with mostly bulbs (alliums) at a south faced place.
Is it better to use bark mulch for the species with a rhizome? Because they need a summer humidity in the soil.
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Thanks Janis,
Excellent information. I'd like to see more and more collected forms become available in the future. Do you know the origins of 'Ivory Queen'? It's such a bright clean white, the foliage also very silvery and light color without any of the typical purple pigmentation.
Ivory Queen is raised in Holland but I don't remember breeders name. It is clone well splitting and setting seeds but seedlings don't repeat parent plant. Some are white, but not so good combination of white flowers and light soft green seed capsules. OF COURSE - I GOT SEEDS FROM OPEN POLLINATED PLANTS growing all karataviense stocks side by side, they are blooming in different times but some flowers overlaps, so it isn't correct experimental result.
Janis
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Here are some photos of an Allium I grew from seed, took 7 years to flower, flowered in 2008 but didn't flower in 2009. It's a beauty to be sure. I lost the label for the plant (crows pull them out), but as best I could tell from the keys and looking at photos, it looked very similar to a photograph in Janis' Buried Treasures book of Allium elburzense. It appears that my plant is not elburzense, but perhaps closer to A. ellisii. The first 3 photos show the plant at peak flowering, the 4th photo shows the inflorescence at late anthesis.
The first picture shows the plant that I grow as allium ellisii. It is seed-raised from the old PF2571 collection.
The secound picture is an allium sp. close to allium ellisii that was raised from wild collected seed (KV100).
Can someone confirm this ID ?
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I want to build a little rock garden / bulb bed with mostly bulbs (alliums) at a south faced place.
Is it better to use bark mulch for the species with a rhizome? Because they need a summer humidity in the soil.
Hi Uli, in general, I would recommend a gravel mulch; better looking and for certain allium or bulb species, provides better drainage at the crown. John Lonsdale at Edgewood Gardens (http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/) used a brown crushed stone mulch, even in his woodland gardens, to great effect; the brown color more harmonious than a lifeless gray mulch. Many of the rhizomatous allium are as tough as nails, fairly drought resistant too, and don't necessarily need a mulch, but the primary reason I use mulch is to keep weeds down. Now, for some of the more moisture loving Chinese treasures, like Allium mairei and A. beesianum, they really dislike dryness, so for such species, a nice bark mulch is beneficial. I find that the shredded bark mulches decomposes and in a year or two can be mixed in with the soil to enrich it.
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The first picture shows the plant that I grow as allium ellisii. It is seed-raised from the old PF2571 collection.
The secound picture is an allium sp. close to allium ellisii that was raised from wild collected seed (KV100).
Can someone confirm this ID ?
Wow! Those are drop-dead gorgeous! Thanks for treating our eyes Luc! It seems that one needs to be an in-the-field-allium-taxonomist these days to really know what these things are. You saw my comments from Dr. Reinhard Fritsch who believes my plant is probably close to A. ellisii, but not exactly like ellisii. I've also been in discussion with Kurt Vickery in England (he's the "KV" in the collection number on the second plant). He too is revisiting the idea, that maybe these plants are close to A. ellisii. The second plant looks more like my plant, than the first one from a Paul Furse collection ID'd as A. ellisii. In the first one, the foliage is very different than mine, green and more linear. As Dr. Fritsch suggests, my plants (and the KV plant) resemble something growing at the Botanic Garden in Tehran, but it's wild origins are unknown.
By the way, for those of you interested, Kurt Vickery does put out a small seed list of bulbous plants (really choice stuff), including a fair number of Acanthoprasum alliums. Email him at kurt@kvphoto.demon.co.uk and ask for his seed lists. He might be close to being sold out for the season, but you never know.
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Mark, you may be sure that Kurt's list has been mentioned here before!
I'm enjoying these onions..... variable as they are..... I'm wondering if , over the holiday season, we ought to have a new thread to list and show plants, of any kind, that are blissfully regular in their habits and appearance? What's the betting no-one would be interested? !! ::)
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And now for something completely different.
A few years ago american Allium cernuum & stellatum started spontaneously hybridizing with species like A. nutans, senescens, rubens, angulosum, and possibly others, although senescens/nutans seems to be the major influence. The hybrids are intermediate, the typical open evenly spaced heads of A. cernuum (usually with about 30 florets per head) give way to extremely dense heads of bloom with buds (as many as 200) crammed tightly together. The foliage too, starts looking more like senescens or nutans, becoming leafier, often glaucous and slightly twisting. The stems, for some reason, become very strong, thickened and ridged, often squarish in cross-section, and rather tall and slightly contorted.
Here is a a cernuum x senescens hybrid selection I named Allium 'Green Eyes'. The extra large green ovaries are visually obvious (thus the name selection), having the tell-tale signature crests of cernuum. In most years the flowers are white, tinged slightly pink. In 2009 they showed a stronger pink blush to the flowers, perhaps because of the exceptionally cool May-June months in 2009. Here are several photos taken in the latter part of July 2008 & 2009. FYI, I do plan on releasing this one.
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The first picture shows the plant that I grow as allium ellisii. It is seed-raised from the old PF2571 collection.
The secound picture is an allium sp. close to allium ellisii that was raised from wild collected seed (KV100).
Can someone confirm this ID ?
Allium ellisii was described by two bulbs grown in Gothenburg Botanical Garden under number PF-2591. Problem is that Paul Furse under that number listed a member of Cruciferae and he supposed that may be correct number could be 2571 from Elburz mountains. But specimen of 2571 was regarded by Wendelbo as A. derderianum. By Wendelbo A. ellisii is close to A. bodeanum and it really looks so. Of course some botanists tend to join bodeanum and christophii as one species and in this case christophii must be renamed as bodeanum.
I'm attaching two pictures of ellisii - plants originate directly from original stock used for description of ellisii. Pity, I don't remember how long is flower stem in my ellisii and on picture I can't see it.
I would like to know from where exactly comes KV-100. By picture it looks very similar to ellisii. You can reply to my private e-mail janis.bulb@hawk.lv
Janis
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Another beautiful Allium from Iran - Allium monophyllum collected in NE Iran on Kurk e Sorkh ridge, before pass at 1795 m and on the pass at 1900 m. First picture from wild, second in my collection.
Outside now is below minus 20 C and watching those pictures I remember hot of Iran.
Janis
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Another unnamed Allium from Iran WHIR-158. 3 pictures from wild, the fourth from cultivation. On label is written shelkovnikovii, but it is mistake. True shelkovnikovii is on picture with aquisition number WHIR-152.
Janis
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Hi Uli, many of the rhizomatous allium are as tough as nails, fairly drought resistant too, and don't necessarily need a mulch, but the primary reason I use mulch is to keep weeds down. Now, for some of the more moisture loving Chinese treasures, like Allium mairei and A. beesianum, they really dislike dryness, so for such species, a nice bark mulch is beneficial. I find that the shredded bark mulches decomposes and in a year or two can be mixed in with the soil to enrich it.
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Mark,
this are the informations you never read in books :'( :'(
But this wonderful forum is a source of expert knowledge you can't pay for.
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Could anyone venture a guess on the identify of the posted species --- from wild sources ex Kirgizstan
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Could anyone venture a guess on the identify of the posted species --- from wild sources ex Kirgizstan
I found this publication on the reporting some new Allium species, including for Kirgizstan, but it's an expensive download. Knud, do you know of a free source for this one? I was able to get one free PDF off the SID site, but for other publications it allows me to check them off, but I see no way (no button) to actually download them.
New Allium (Alliaceae) species from Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Uzbekistan
Read the "abstract" at this link:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/schweiz/bj/2009/00000127/00000004/art00004
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Mark:
Thank you. I will see if a friend (with scientific publication access) can order this for me.
I missed your original joining---always so wonderful to meet old friends in this (my favorite, soon to become only) public gardening forum!!!!
I am certain your experience, kinship and long experience with allium will be much cherished here.
WELCOME
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Could anyone venture a guess on the identify of the posted species --- from wild sources ex Kirgizstan
My best guess on this so far is Allium tianschanicum, check out the long stamens and orangish anthers. It's range includes Kyrgyzstan.
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/38485.html
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/38488.html
...base of foliage/stems
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/38486.html
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=240001064
herbarium specimen:
http://mobot.org/mobot/research/leguide/specimen-images/67/984.html
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As promised for Dom, here are some photos of the fine American Allium, A. plummerae. It is a high elevation species found in a limited range in Arizona and New Mexico, USA, growing in moist alpine meadows. In good garden soil in full sun, it is among the most all-around ornamental species, making dense clumps of silvery-bluish foliage, fine upright-facing domes of pure white flowers starting the end of July, flowering throughout August. With age, the ovaries age to yellowish, orange, or pinkish... very nice. I've never had self-sown seedlings appear.
Happy Holidays all :D
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very very nice species !
thank's !
Dom, do you grow it ?
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My new catalogue is almost ready - now must to shorten it for 6-7 pages. In January I will send text part of catalogue to you and others who will be interested by e-mail.
Janis
Yes please
gote@svanholm.se