Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Oron Peri on January 25, 2009, 11:03:05 AM
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Fritillaria persica is in flower now,
there is a slight variation in color and shape of the flowers.
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How beautiful, you live in plant paradise, thanks for the pics. :)
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Very beautifull Oron, particularly the first image - is that a Cyclamen in the background??
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Hi Rob,
Yes there are some C. persicum in the beckground.
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Breathtaking, Oron. And so very variable!
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Oron,
I'd be very interested in learning about the countryside and climate of your garden in Galilee. You seem to be able to grow a fantastic variety of plants.
Perhaps a new thread on gardening in your part of the world?
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Thank you Oleg, consider that there is much more variability if you add the dark forms of F. persica
[Syn. F. arabica], these are in bloom usually in early March.
The greeny-yellowish forms are growing in N. Israel, Lebanon and W. Syria while the dark forms are more of Eastern populations, SE Israel, Jordan to Iran mainly in semidesert climate.
Carlo
My climate [zone 9] is very similar to California, maybe a bit drier.
Israel & Palestine are quite rich in bulbous plants, more then 230 taxa., and so I have quite a large selection to choose from.
I always look for plants from similar altitudes, this way I have better chance of growing them.
For example the Frits. photographed above are growing not far from where I live at 240m above sea level.
Many times I have tried to grow the same species from much higher altitudes but never succeeded with these.
And so after many bad attempts I have decided to collect species from the Mediterranean Basin that are growing at relatively low altitudes and finally give up all those lovely, Delicious , marvelous, incredibly beautiful.....high altitudes plants. :-\
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Thank you Oron, very interesting to see, and what a thrill to have such flowers at this time of year. ( I am in the middle of winter here with snow and frost). I wish I could grow F. persica, but while many other Frits grow very well for me, this one doesn't.
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What a lovely plant Oron. Thanks for these beautiful pictures.
Your climate sounds very like mine, which surprises me. I live at about 300 m above sea level and also in Zone 9. Alas, we have no native bulbous species in New Zealand, so the rest of the world's species come to us - when the bureaucrats permit. :'(
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Thanks Lesley,
I think the difference between here and New Zealand are annual rain falls,
we don't get more than 500mm annually, in only 3-4 months during the year, and most areas get much less, therefor plants had to develop ways to store water in order to survive, one of the solutions were storage organs such as bulbs.
I suppose most of NZ get much more then 500mm and probably over a longer period...??
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I've changed it now but I noticed that I wrote I love at 300 m. Well that too.
NZ's rainfall is very diverse in recent times, probably less so pre human occupation. Where I live we have about 450-500mm per year though Dunedin city just 18 kms away (by road, less for the birds) has twice that. But I have most rain in winter with smaller amounts in autumn/spring and very little over the 4 summer months. Winters are relatively mild - down to approx -6C is a "hard" frost for me.
The north and west of the North Island have much higher rain fall and the west coast of the South Island measures its rainfall in metres rather than millimetres, and can have 10m or more in a single year. A single rainfall over 24 hours of 2-300mm is not unusual. The whole east coast of the country is in semi drought conditions for several years, especially severe in the east of the N.I. and in Marlbourgh, north-east of the S.I.
The difference between east and west coast rainfall comes about because of the mountains which are just about down the middle of the whole country. Volcanic Plateau and others in the N.I. and Southern Alps in the S.I.
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Lesley
Thank you for giving this interesting information on your weather,
wish we had half of that rain....
very interesting!!!
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Oron,
Your climate would be very similar to here in South Australia I should imagine. We can have days in summer in the low 40C and occasionally in autumn and spring -7C. We have had 2008 - 323ml, 207 - 383ml, 2006 - 24ml with an average between 1908-1979 541ml.
We have had no rain this month so far. Over the last few years the rain has mainly fallen in March/April, july/August/September - BUT last year 61ml in December, 56 in January 2007. Can someone please put me in a zone? In the past we did not get these summer rains as much.
Being in a gully with most of my garden on an east facing slope we do enjoy cooler night time temps and frosts.
I too look for plants from the lower altitudes as we are about 380metres above sea level.
I am noting all these bulbs that I should be able to grow so that when seed lists arrive I know what to look out for.
Thank you and please continue all these wonderful postings Oron.
Pat T
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Thank you Pat,
I think your conditions are perfect for growing bulbs, from higher altitudes as well, since you have low temperatures in winter.
I am in Zone 9, where temperatures hardly ever drop below 5c, so I guess you are in Zone 8, which give you the possibility to grow also species such as Peonies, Fritillaria, Tulipa and many others that can not grow here.
Is there a piece of land available around there....? ::)
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Hi Oron - this Fritillaria persica are real stunner!!! :o
(and are You sure you are in zone 9? - I live in zone 10a and think your area is still warmer than mine... ::) - and I can grow a few Paeonies and Tulips here ;) 8))
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This zoning system is American, right? When I first joined Trillium-L I was asked to put my zone and hadn't a clue. Someone on the list looked at the geography, the climate etc and told me I was Zone 9.
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Oron, as far as I know the American Hardiness Zone temperatures for Zone 9 are -7 to -1, and for Zone 10 are -1 to +4
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This zoning system is American, right?
How hardy do you have to be to resist this creeping Americanisation?
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I think it's almost impossible to avoid or resist. It's probably close to blasphemy to say it but I'm already suffering from Obama-itis.
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Even though it is an American System - it does make sense to have a system - rather than the 5 or so regions here eg Mediterranean , temperate etc. 44C today forecast - but 20c overnight which allows all doors and windows to be opened for the gully coolness to cool the house - no air conditioner here at home. Unless the paeonies are in shade they get pretty burnt as does even the leaves of Salvation Jane - Echium sp.
Radiated heat is the worst for new roses here.
Pat
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This zoning system is American, right?
How hardy do you have to be to resist this creeping Americanisation?
Very tender. ;D
johnw
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Oron, I do not grow your greenish - yellow form of F. persica , which is stunning , but the dark form grows and flowers well here -at the moment you could think I live in a
semi- desert climate, 40C and not a drop of rain since Christmas , also severe watering
restrictions . Yet a lot of other Frit. species , circa 60 or so in my garden grow and flower well -except F. alburyana refuses to flower.
I think I live in zone 10 , only rarely down to -3 at the most , altitude 500m.,
rainfall in a normal year [ which we have not had for at least 5 years] is about
800 -900 mm..with most falling in winter,and smaller amounts in autumn and spring .
Tulips , peonies, Rhododendron species , just to name a few , grow well here - so all in all we must be grateful to garden in a favourable climate.
Otto.
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Here's a handy link for hardy zones for various countries.
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HardinessZoneMaps
:)
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How world climate changes rapidly... :-\
Sorry for all this confusion.
I have checked again, there are two usefull scales,, the first is the USDA plant hardiness Zone [1-11 zones], and the second which is more detailed is the Western gardening book/sunset [1-24 zones].
According to USDA i am situated in zone 10b while Pam is in zone 8b or 9a and Otto in 10a.
- and I can grow a few Paeonies and Tulips here ;) 8))[/size]
Thank you Hans for reminding me of that.... >:( ;)
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Otto,
That is incredible that you grow 60 taxa of Fritillaria....
Your weather seems to be the perfect one, you live much higher and enjoy double rain falls
I can hardly grow Fritillaria, they need a colder weather.
At the moment I grow F. persica, F. bithynica [from Samos], f. rhodia and F. sp from Kemer [havnt flowered yet], all originally from sea level.
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The zones must be enjoyed with moderation. 8)
There are a number of zone systems out there including the Swedish one.
However, since Americans insist on their system just as they insist on inches, Fahrenheit etc. the American system is given undue prominence. (Low zone = cold climate)
The US zones were originally used to assess hardiness of trees and shrubs - I think they originated at the Arnold Arboretum.
They are defined from the average annual minimum temperature (which of course must be defined in itself).
The Swedish zones refer to fruit trees and were originally based on which cultivars will survive in a certain area. (Low zone =warm climate)
It makes good sense for woody subjects but the degree of dormancy at the time of the lowest temperature is, of course very important.
For plants which may be protected by snow or soil (Bulbs) the zones are not very informative. They are, of course better than nothing but often misleading.
You can find maps in many publications.
To find the zone in your own area you can use a manual of woody subjects, see which are known to survive and not, and refer back from the manual.
This is actually better than relying on meteorlogical data.
The site http://www.uk.gardenweb.com/forums/zones/hze2.html gives a map over Sweden that proves my point. It says that I am in zone 6. The Swedish hardiness zone is however, zone 3. If I use Redher's Manual of Cultivated Trees and shrubs I find that trees from zone 4 usually survive and those from zone 5 are unreliably hardy which in reality puts me in Zone 4.5.
Göte
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I think it's almost impossible to avoid or resist. It's probably close to blasphemy to say it but I'm already suffering from Obama-itis.
Lesley - me too. It reminds me of Blair-itis & we know what happened there.
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I see that according to our last night's weather on TV, Melbourne is today expected to have 43C. You'd better take a good book Otto, and retire to your bed, or somewhere on the shady side of the house.
F. alburyana has flowered twice for me, one in June and once in August, neither time was the winter very cold, nor the previous year, which could have more to do with it. It didn't flower this year (08) though and I think I'll repot - very soon - and put the pot in the refrigerator until early winter and see what happens.
This was the first flowering. The pink is very pure, no purplish at all, as I've seen in other pics of this species. It seems to be carved from rose quartz, almost chrystalline.
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That's a little beauty Lesley.
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43 degrees is beyond comprehension here, cold compresses would be called for :P.... we've had a sunny day but it's been getting icy since nightfall.
Lesley, your F. alburyana is charming.... one of the prettiest frits I think.
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Fritillaria persica - green form, seed from Lower Galilee. (Thanks Oron)
2 year old seedlings have survived our recent cold spell kept fairly dry and under the bench in my cold greenhouse. Can I get them to flowering size? .... This post will be long forgotten by that time if I do :)
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They look very happy, Bravo
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Fritillaria persica - green form, seed from Lower Galilee. (Thanks Oron)
2 year old seedlings have survived our recent cold spell kept fairly dry and under the bench in my cold greenhouse. Can I get them to flowering size? .... This post will be long forgotten by that time if I do :)
Would you remember a request for an offset Tony! ;D
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The frit was lovely, the picture less so in that I tried to enlarge it too much to fill the screen. I'll re-do it some time.
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Lovely Fritillaria alburyana in cultivation,a success to grow it never mind flower. I thought you might like to see it in the wild
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Tony
Can I ask where these great photos were taken?
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Tony, thanks so much for those. Nothing beats seeing the wild plants.
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Tony
Can I ask where these great photos were taken?
taken outside Erzurum in Eastern Turkey. They completely filled a long gully. The next one had Fritillaria armena in it and the ridge between Iris reticulata
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A couple of Fritillaria alburyana from the AGS show benches.
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And very nice too. Roger will have to move his beer out of the fridge. Priorities! :-\
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Lovely Fritillaria alburyana in cultivation,a success to grow it never mind flower. I thought you might like to see it in the wild
Tony, Visited the site in April when there was about 50 cm of snow and no plants
visible of course.
Would you please tell what the yellow flowers are, growing together with the frits?
Gerd
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Tony thanks for the information, sounds like a small paradise. [but than Turkey is a paradise isnt it...]
Gerd they look to me as Gagea.
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Gerd as Oron says they are gagea.I visited twice second week in May. There are two good areas that I know, one the Kop Dag but here they are a very poor form and another between Erzerum and Cat where my pictures were taken. After my second visit I know that large numbers of the flowering size plants were dug up but fortunately it makes masses of rice grains so the site was not destroyed.
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Oron, Tony!
Thank you for clarification! In fact I should know it - Gagea are the most abundant
plants in Turkey.
Gerd
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Here are two photos of the charming, if slightly "odd" flowers of Fritillaria davidii..... these pix were first posted in the "FloweringNow" section, but I felt they deserved a wide audience, so I am reposting them here..... grown and photographed by Derek Bacon......
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
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This is the first flowering for Derek of this rather lovely frit ---- which is said to smell of guava fruit.... yummy!
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Real little charmers aren't they? :)
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Fantastic,well done
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Beautiful plant Derek.
The earliest here this year is Fritillaria minuta.
Aptly named & flowering with me for the first time. I look forward to seed and bulking it up a bit!
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Glad to say the frit season is starting here, too..... I think the Bulb Logs will be turning frittish very soon!
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Ashley - congratulations on keeping F. minuta looking good & minute. When I used to grow it the plant elongated so much that it looked ridiculous.
It looks as though F. graeca will be the first one here.
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Thanks Gerry. Although I understand that this species prefers part shade, conditions in E Turkey are probably brighter than anything we get in Ireland so this plant is kept in full light.
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I like the way F. minuta's flower is exactly the same shade as the stem at soil level. Very nice flower.
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Nice Maggi, i like the checkered pattern and the combination of the colours :D
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Laurence Hill's Fritillaria Icones (http://www.fritillariaicones.com/index.html) is a useful resource that I came across only recently.
Another one just opened here: F. amana
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Lovely little Frit Ashley.
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Laurence Hill's Fritillaria Icones (http://www.fritillariaicones.com/index.html) is a useful resource that I came across only recently.
Ashley - many thanks for the link which I didn't know. I remember when Laurence turned up at a meeting of the Frit Group some years ago & told me of his plan to produce a collection of high-quality photographs of frits in the style of botanical paintings. At the time I was rather sceptical. In the event my scepticism was unjustified & the website shows just how well he realised his ambition.
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Here's F. ariana out today - I posted another recently, but this one is a much superior form with lovely, big flowers - unfortunately no sign of vegetative increase.
Alex
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Photo v. grainy because light was low at the time (5:30 or so) - sorry!
Alex
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Alex -your F. ariana is indeed a superior form , to drool over ! are you tempted to pollinate it? Can I put my name on the waiting list for a pinch of seed?
Otto
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Photo v. grainy because light was low at the time (5:30 or so) - sorry!
Alex
We're not complaining Alex. :)
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The grainy photo can't hide the beauty of this one Alex !
Very nice indeed !!!
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Fingers crossed this should should be a pic of F.pluriflora. I got this a long time ago as F. liliacea but even with my diagnostic skills I could tell when it eventually flowered it wasn't. Past few years I have let it set seed and sent that off to AGS/Frit group. I sowed last year's crop and it came up like grass..in January. Luckily I stuck it under a fan so I didn't lose any to mould. Then February came the greenfly. Still ok so I'm hopeful of keeping them going.
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Beautiful plants Alex and Mark.
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Fritillaria pudica
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Beautiful plants, everyone.
I like the pudica, a very clear yellow.
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A few Frits. and others - a better shot of F. ariana (good form), F. bucharica and a view of a bit of my greenhouse including Tropaeolum tricolorum, Fritillaria striata and Corydalis schanginii ssp. ainae.
Cheers,
Alex
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Otto, I try to pollinate it, in fact I have a single one year old seedling at the moment - came up lime cress last year but I seem to have lost most of them over the Summer for some reason. You are more than welcome if I get any more this year, can't guarantee what it will give though.
Cheers,
Alex
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A beautiful pluriflora Mark.
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Very nice Tropaeolum, Alex!
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Fritillaria stenanthera. Raised from seed.
Please can anyone advise on how to get seed off it? I'm going to try tickling the flowers again but havr never got viable seed yet :(
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I never got any seed from my single clone (gone now, alas) so I assumed it needed another to cross pollinate. Maybe seedlings from a single pod are too closely related?
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Alex, I'm really favorably impressed by that Fritillaria striata. How tall is that plant? How big are the individual flowers?
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Hi Jim,
The F. striata must be about 18in/45cm tall, and each flower is probably 4cm across I'd say. I got a single bulb 3 years ago, it had just 2 flowers the first year and has added 1 or 2 more each year, although i don't know how long I can expect that to continue. It seems happy, but no offsets and no seed yet. I have tried seed from commercial sources, but it has never germinated.
Alex
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I'll have to show that image to my plants to see if I can shame them into better performance.
Congratulations, yours is stunning!
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Thank you, I wish it would make me really happy by offsetting. I posted pics of the flowers when they first opened more than 3 weeks ago on a thread entitled "last ones for now", you can find it on page 2 of bulbs general or try this link:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3071.0
Do you know a source for viable seed (or bulbs)?
Alex
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Three Frits today.
Fritillaria argolica
Fritillaria Bucharica
Fritillaria pinardi
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I've had two batches of seed from the Fritillaria Group's seedlist but of course it's too early to tell whether they're true yet. But the donor names suggested absolute reliability. Both batches germinated well and the first has been up a second time.
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Do you know a source for viable seed (or bulbs)?
Alex
Jane McGary, the editor of the NARGS Bulletin, sometimes has this frit seed available. She often donates it to the NARGS seedex. You can contact her through the NARGS site:http://www.nargs.org/pub/publications.html (http://www.nargs.org/pub/publications.html)
cheers
fermi
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My first Frit. to flower - aurea.
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Fritillaria minuta,
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The first few ones out (apart from the pluriflora)
Frit davisii from Archibald seed. This took an inordinate amount of time, I've grown flowered and killed the American Frits in much shorter time. For some weird reason all the bulbs i bought over the years also failed. Why? It's supposed to be easy! But it is cute though.
A nice F. aurea.
Frit kotschyana..not so sure about this one, it seems a bit "overblown"?
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Pete and Mark,
F. aurea is so beautiful. Thanks for showing it,
By the way I wonder if Klimt was inspired by it ???
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My first Frit in the bulb frame Fritillaria uva-vulpis - bought as F.assyriaca
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Here are a couple of mine today
Frit Raddeana
Frit Ariana
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Here's the first frit of the year for me: Fritillaria raddeana. This is the fourth year this one has bloomed here, and it has always been very early for me. My plant sometimes emerges from the ground flower buds first - and the first flowers sometimes open just above ground level. This year it is behaving more normally and did not actually bloom until it was about six or eight inches high. Later it will get a bit taller, but it has never been more than about ten inches high. The bulb is about four cm in diameter. This has been in bloom for several days now.
I've mentioned these details because last fall I received some bulbs of what were said to be Fritillaria raddeana. The bulbs were big and heavy, about 10 cm in diameter. They somewhat resembled those of Fritillaria imperialis, but side by side the two were very distinct. They had none of the vulpine odor of Fritillaria imperialis. I'm waiting to see what these new ones turn out to be.
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So common but also so lovely I think: F. meleagris
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So common but also so lovely I think: F. meleagris
I could not agree more, Ashley.... F. meleagris is a stunning plant, full of enchanting variations and with such an elegant form.
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After my second visit I know that large numbers of the flowering size plants were dug up but fortunately it makes masses of rice grains so the site was not destroyed.
Were they dug up by humans or animals? If by humans, then maybe we should all watch out for 'cheap' Fritillaria alburyana on the market this year!
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After my second visit I know that large numbers of the flowering size plants were dug up but fortunately it makes masses of rice grains so the site was not destroyed.
Were they dug up by humans or animals? If by humans, then maybe we should all watch out for 'cheap' Fritillaria alburyana on the market this year!
The word collected springs to mind but it was several years ago and they have now regenerated
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Still seems a shame though given that most of the ones that are sold end up dieing. Buying is only going to encourage people to keep digging.
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Maggi - there seem to be two threads running as "Fritillaria 2009". A bit confusing as to where to post.
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Crikey, Gerry, are there? Sorry.... I'll go fix it!!
There, all merged now. Further apologies, it was I who got confused in the first place! :-[
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Fritillaria whittallii
From Fritillaria Group seed (received as F. graeca, it keys out as F. whittallii)
[Maggi - thanks for sorting out the threads]
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Fritillaria pinardii from a RRW collection.
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Fritillaria goksum gold.(this is really Hermonis amana lutea )
Fritillaria aurea.
Fritillaria Conica
Fritillaria crassifolia subsp kurdica from seed ?
Fritillaria tuntasia from seed ?
Fritillaria bithynica x 2 ex Turkey from seed ?
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Michael, nice Fritillaries.
Your first one is not "from Tunisia" , but is in fact Frit. tuntasia, (which is Greek)..... I suspect a misreading of the label on the packet of seed!
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Thanks Maggi, I have corrected it. That's why I always put a question mark after seed raised plants as I am never sure that the name is correct, and I am always too busy to check it out. Too many plants to manage and so little time.
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Given some of the plant names around, it's pretty hard NOT to get muddled at times, I reckon!
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Michael -
F. whittallii looks like F. acmopetala
((F. crassifolia subsp. kurdica looks like F. bithynica editby M; Seconfd pic of F. bithynica (tweo pix menioned my Micahel) is only labelled as kurdica in error))
F. [hermonis amana] 'Goksum Gold' doesn't look right- it should be a good yellow.
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Michael -
This is genuine F. hermonis subsp. amana ‘Goksum Gold’ (= HS 2333). Although yours looks OK as regards shape it seems too green.
This is a scan from a print of a photo by Sheila Brown.
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Sir do you gather your seeds from internet or just from places you visit?
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Arda - is your question addressed to me or to Michael?
I have grown fritillaries from seed obtained from the various seed exchanges in the UK such as the AGS & The Fritillaria Group. This seed is often incorrectly named. I have also had seed from the commercial suppliers JJA Seeds who are very good & whose seed is usually true to name. I have never collected seed in the wild because I have never been in the right place at the right time.
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Gerry, that is a super hermonis amana :o
Attached photos of F. hermonis in its natural habitat on Mt. Hermon [1700m, in this photo]
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Gerry, that is a super hermonis amana :o
Oron - yes it is. Unfortunately not grown by me!
Wonderful to see F. hermonis in the wild. Thanks for posting.
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Hi Oron is that altitude for the F.hermonis high enough for snow in winter?
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Simon, it does, this species grows from 1500-2800m,
from 900-1000m and up it snows each year.
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Phew- so the ones I have in the garden under snow now have a good chance of surviving. :)
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F. [hermonis amana] 'Goksum Gold' doesn't look right- it should be a good yellow.
Gerry,that's it as I got it from a well known Bulb Co. it is the greenhouse in full sun and we have had sunshine for the last two weeks.It has not been altered in any way other than to reduce the size
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Some Frits from today: F. sibthorpiana, F. recurva X 2 and a F. eastwoodiae bud. I'm particularly excited about the F. recurva, since I imported small bulbs more than 4 years ago from the States and the first one has finally got there....
Alex
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F. [hermonis amana] 'Goksum Gold' doesn't look right- it should be a good yellow.
Gerry,that's it as I got it from a well known Bulb Co. it is the greenhouse in full sun and we have had sunshine for the last two weeks.It has not been altered in any way other than to reduce the size
Michael - I suppose your plant might be a seedling. The original collection was made SE of Goksun (or Goksum), Turkey by the late Vic Horton & Norman Stevens in 1979. Norman always catalogued it as "...Yellow Form HS 2333. A nice yellow form" or "soft yellow tesselated (sic) darker". He did not bestow the cultivar name & I don't think he liked it. The plant I pictured above, although not grown by me, is identical in colour to plants I have grown from bulbs received directly from Norman & identical to all the plants I have seen under this collection number. Seeds have been available from JJA seeds (497.004) from further collections of yellow forms made more recently(1994) at the same site by Jim & Norman but Jim states that "only a very small proportion, if any, come 'true' in the first generation."
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Congratulations Alex - well worth the wait 8)
Gerry, can you recommend any other good frit keys apart from the one in Brian Mathews' 'Bulbs'?
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Gerry, can you recommend any other good frit keys apart from the one in Brian Mathews' 'Bulbs'?
Ashley -
For European frits the most readily available key I know is in Bulbs: The bulbous plants of Europe & their allies, by C. Grey Wilson& B. Mathew (this may be the book you refer to)
If you have access to a good library there are useful keys in the following, though some may be outdated:
European Garden Flora,
Flora Europaea (the online version doesn’t seem to include the key),
Flora of Turkey vol 8,
Flora of the USSR vol 4,
Flora of China vol 24 (this is/was online).
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Yes it was the CGW-BM book I was referring to. Many thanks for these refs Gerry.
Thanks Diane (below); yes these are both great resources.
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Congratulations Alex - well worth the wait 8)
Gerry, can you recommend any other good frit keys apart from the one in Brian Mathews' 'Bulbs'?
not keys, but good pictorial frit references to add to Gerry's list of references
The Fritillaria group
http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/imgindx.htm (http://www.fritillaria.org.uk/imgindx.htm)
and Laurence Hill's Fritillaria icones site
http://www.fritillariaicones.com/icones/Icones.html (http://www.fritillariaicones.com/icones/Icones.html)
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Arda - is your question addressed to me or to Michael?
I have grown fritillaries from seed obtained from the various seed exchanges in the UK such as the AGS & The Fritillaria Group. This seed is often incorrectly named. I have also had seed from the commercial suppliers JJA Seeds who are very good & whose seed is usually true to name. I have never collected seed in the wild because I have never been in the right place at the right time.
My question was for all sir,
I am 22 years old student, and have a garden for 2-3 years. Bulbous plants were always my special interest, so I searched for them and gathered as much as I can. But the ones I collected were always imported bulbs(tulips,crocuses etc.) which are hybrid. They are not natural species and are sterile I guess. After looking in to this forum I realised that you people are gathering natural species which breed. And doing a collection. Which I loved, I decided to do the same. But I don't have an opportunity to excange seeds because I have no seed.
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Michael - I suppose your plant might be a seedling. The original collection was made SE of Goksun (or Goksum), Turkey by the late Vic Horton & Norman Stevens in 1979. Norman always catalogued it as "...Yellow Form HS 2333. A nice yellow form" or "soft yellow tesselated (sic) darker". He did not bestow the cultivar name & I don't think he liked it. The plant I pictured above, although not grown by me, is identical in colour to plants I have grown from bulbs received directly from Norman & identical to all the plants I have seen under this collection number. Seeds have been available from JJA seeds (497.004) from further collections of yellow forms made more recently(1994) at the same site by Jim & Norman but Jim states that "only a very small proportion, if any, come 'true' in the first generation."
Gerry I had some time today so checked up on the Frit. The one that I had labeled Goksum gold, is actually "Hermonis amana lutea" the one labeled as Whittallii and looked like Acompetala I can't identify, It does look like Acompetala but it is checkered and in all the Acompetala that I can find,the colours are all running more or less in straight lines,but not checkered.
Both of these bulbs were purchased from a supposedly reliable source, but are obviously of dutch origin, and the error was my fault for taking them on face value instead of checking them for the proper ID. I am not condemning all dutch bulb growers but the end supplier should authenticate his stock before selling on to their customers.
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Michael - your plant that looks like F. acmopetala is a puzzle - frits can be hell to identify. Flora of Turkey states that the species is not tesselated & I've never seen a correctly identified plant which is. Perhaps you can post a close-up of the flower & a pic of the whole plant so that we can all have another look?
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2 Frits from me,
Fritillaria crassifolia kurdica,
Fritillaria crassifolia karadaghensis
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Derek, I am interested in what ways Fritillaria crassifolia spp kurdica and karadaghensis differ- I had thought they were synonyms.
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The first flower on Frit Gibbosa this year and more to follow,but thought I would post it anyway
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A few more Frits, F. michailovski, F. amana (?) and F. kurdica.
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Derek, I am interested in what ways Fritillaria crassifolia spp kurdica and karadaghensis differ- I had thought they were synonyms.
Simon, according to Rannveig Wallis karadaghensis is a more vigorus form of kurdica found on Kara Dag NE of Tabriz , Iran.
Derek.
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I love all these. What a super colour is F. gibbosa. I can hardly wait for winter to come and go, and my own frits to start.
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Derek, I am interested in what ways Fritillaria crassifolia spp kurdica and karadaghensis differ- I had thought they were synonyms.
Simon, according to Rannveig Wallis karadaghensis is a more vigorus form of kurdica found on Kara Dag NE of Tabriz , Iran.
Derek.
Thanks Derek- so it's more of a clonal name then. I shall look forward to mine flowering to see how they compare.
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Is here a listing somewhere of Fritillarias that will do well in very hot dry summers and mild winters with about 15" of rainfall a year and maybe a few frosts?
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Derek, I am interested in what ways Fritillaria crassifolia spp kurdica and karadaghensis differ- I had thought they were synonyms.
Simon, according to Rannveig Wallis karadaghensis is a more vigorus form of kurdica found on Kara Dag NE of Tabriz , Iran.
Derek.
Thanks Derek- so it's more of a clonal name then. I shall look forward to mine flowering to see how they compare.
Simon - in botanical terms, these are synonyms. However, F. crassifolia subsp kurdica is an extremely variable species. A few years ago when I was 'into' frits (or, more exactly, struggling with them) I had 5 different forms which differed so much in size, habit & flower one would have taken them for different species.
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Yes Gerry I have quite a few forms myself, as well as ones grown from my own seed- I was continuing a theme from other forums of how it isn't really helpful for us to have all these names floating around that may or may not be valid, when it is easier to say where a form actually came from. I have 2 forms of Fritillaria pinardii with RRW collection numbers- both of which look rather different from the type normally seen in books. Fritillaria meleagris is also extremely variable in colour, height etc. especially in cultivation so it is safe to assume that many other species will be too.
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I'd really like an ident on a little green and brown frit I have. I got it either as seed or bulbils from the Frit Group under the name of F. argolica. The donators were the Wallis's..people who seriously know their onions..Frits etc etc. But maybe a mix up in the packing office or here? Shiny green leaves, about 3 inches tall (but it's the first flowering).
The other one is F. recurva, grown from Archibald seed.
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I'd really like an ident on a little green and brown frit I have.
Mark - Looks rather like F. hermonis subsp. amana (or F. amana if you prefer to follow the Wallis's revision).
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hi, well I thought so too..but it seems to have more tessalation on the flowers than the other ones I have here. It's nice but I think I would have prefered F.argolica!
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Welcome to the Botanical Box of Chocolates.
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The beauty(?) of the Frit Group seed exchange is that you (almost) never know what you will get. Anything which is not F. acmopetala should be regarded as a bonus.
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The amount of chequering varies enormously, Mark, on hermonis as on other tessellated frits. ;D
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The beauty(?) of the Frit Group seed exchange is that you (almost) never know what you will get. Anything which is not F. acmopetala should be regarded as a bonus.
Oh blast! I really thought the Frit Group's seed list would be pretty reliable, with all those "expert" names beside the donations. My first from that source are due to flower this coming spring so it seems it could be a lucky dip too? From society seedlists I'm used to getting acmopetala, pontica, meleagris for 3 of every 5 requests. ???
A lovely recurva Mark. Mine was from the same source and flowered in 3 years. Funny, it looks just like yours. ;D
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Welcome to the Botanical Box of Chocolates.
I guess it doesn't help to poke your finger into a frit bulb before buying it?
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Is here a listing somewhere of Fritillarias that will do well in very hot dry summers and mild winters with about 15" of rainfall a year and maybe a few frosts?
It will be a matter of trial and error Pat and then you, yourself will need to make up that list. Your very mild winter may put a few off but the summer shouldn't hurt them although I would be shading them in the strongest heat. Dry shade is very good for bulbs where full sun can literally cook them unless they're way down deep.
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I had hoped that it being a specialist group the plants would be true to name. Cyclamen Society seed seems to be fairly reliable though.
In the 90s I wrote a piece for the AGS about an element called "Transmutium" which I suggested was the cause of all the spontaneous mutations in seed from AGS seed, it seems that naughty element is more ubiquitous than I originally thought.
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Lesley- glad it's not just me!
Mark- how well was your 'Transmutium' theory received.
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Is here a listing somewhere of Fritillarias that will do well in very hot dry summers and mild winters with about 15" of rainfall a year and maybe a few frosts?
It will be a matter of trial and error Pat and then you, yourself will need to make up that list. Your very mild winter may put a few off but the summer shouldn't hurt them although I would be shading them in the strongest heat. Dry shade is very good for bulbs where full sun can literally cook them unless they're way down deep.
Pat - I pondered about responding to your post but my first thought was that your conditions are not very promising for frits. I agree with Lesley that it will be a matter of trial & error & you will have to compile your own list, but I disagree in that I think it will involve a lot of error & the summer heat will be the main problem. If you wish to try I would suggest that you start with cheap & relatively easy bulbs like F. meleagris &/or F. acmopetala, &, if successful move on to F. pyrenaica, possibly F. pontica & F. thunbergii (= F. verticillata of gardens). However, unless you can find a means to keep the bulbs relatively cool & slightly moist during the summer, they are unlikely to survive. In my experience frit bulbs do not like hot & dry conditions - they are 'naked', i.e., have no protective tunics.
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The beauty(?) of the Frit Group seed exchange is that you (almost) never know what you will get. Anything which is not F. acmopetala should be regarded as a bonus.
Oh blast! I really thought the Frit Group's seed list would be pretty reliable, with all those "expert" names beside the donations. My first from that source are due to flower this coming spring so it seems it could be a lucky dip too? From society seedlists I'm used to getting acmopetala, pontica, meleagris for 3 of every 5 requests. ???
I was a member of the Frit Group from day 1 & my comments are based on my very early experience of the seed exchange. Matters may have improved.
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I have to agree with you Gerry about Pat keeping THOSE frits a bit moist in summer. I was thinking more of the Eastern Aegean and Turkish species. I imagine Australia is like NZ in that NO frit is a cheap frit and only very few are ever offered commercially though the Aussies have it better than we do in that Marcus Harvey in Tasmania offers a good selection each year, mainly from seed he collected in Greece and the Greek islands. Here, we used to be able to buy F. imperialis but this is gone now, all available being exported to Holland (!) and very occasionally meleagris and pontica are offered in garden centres, packeted and usually around $6-12 each. NZ rock gardeners are great seed growers bedcause we've always had to be.
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Thank you all for your insights. I was thinking that if I started with seed of those Fritillarias that come from a similar climate that I might succeed with those. I would not try with any that need gentler summer or really cold or damp conditions. I was thinking that the Fritillarias that are native to areas where the arils that succeed with me would be the ones to try. I seem to be able to grow Iris atropurpurea, camillae, haynei, hermona, lortetii, mariae, samariae and urmiensis species or species crosses between these species - some better than others.
There is probably only a handful that I could grow here.
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Three more pictures today,and tragic news for one Frit,a mouse found its way into the cold greenhouse and has eaten through a stem,so the traps are now set
Frit Chlororhabdota
Frit Ariana now in full flower
Frit Euboeica
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they are really nice plants.I particularly like the ariana
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Thanks and yes I have given it ,and Gibbosa, a tickle with a small brush so am hoping to get some nice seed
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Fritillaria rhodia starts to bloom, green-yellow when young, dark yellow as flower mature.
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Oron , I love your little charmer from Rhodos , years ago I had F. rhodia with even smaller flowers than yours and less green in it's early stage - but sadly lost it .
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This little fritillaria is one of the few I grow, and it's the first time it has flowered, I think. It is Fritillaria pinardii Ilgarz (?) form, unless someone knows different!
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Anne a very nice pinardii.I think it will be from Ilgaz Gec (without the 'r') a pass in N Turkey.
Three of mine in flower. I struggle with frits which seem to have some soil borne disease which causes them to wilt and die of before flowering.This results in ever smaller bulbs.
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Anne - I agree with Tony, F. pinardii. The colouration suggests it may be the fine form collected by Vic Horton & Norman Stevens on Ilgaz Dag (HS 2526).
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I struggle with frits which seem to have some soil borne disease which causes them to wilt and die of before flowering.This results in ever smaller bulbs.
Could the mite Rhizoglyphus echinopus be the reason?
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Three of mine in flower. I struggle with frits which seem to have some soil borne disease which causes them to wilt and die of before flowering.This results in ever smaller bulbs.
Tony - this sounds like 'Fritillaria keeling-over disease', caused by a fungal infection. This was widespread some years ago but I haven't heard much about it recently. Some people had success in controlling it using a micro organism product called Viresco. This used to be obtainable from John McLaughlan Horticulture (in Thirsk, N. Yorks) but I don't know whether they still exist. There was at least one article on the problem in the Frit Journal; I'll try & find it.
Edit: the article, by Bob Wallis, was in Frit Journal no.3 (Autumn 1998). Infected plants wilted & very quickly stems rotted off at the point of attachment to the bulb. For the most part, the bulbs themselves remained intact though considerably weakened. Bob & Rannveig found that treatment with a microrhizal culture (Viresco) plus its nutrient (Humate) appeared to control the disease. At the time of writing, they had only used Viresco + Humate for one season but were sufficiently impressed by the results to recommend it to others who had the problem.
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Gerry that would be very helpful,I have had it for several years and tried different fungicides to no avail.
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Tony - I've added the details in an edit to my previous post. Bob Wallis says fungicides are ineffective & should be completely avoided during the microrhizal treatment; they kill the beneficial microrganisms.
If they still exist - John McLaughlan Horticulture, 50a Market Place, Thirsk, N. Yorkshire Y07, 1LH
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I struggle with frits which seem to have some soil borne disease which causes them to wilt and die of before flowering.This results in ever smaller bulbs.
Could the mite Rhizoglyphus echinopus be the reason?
Or even simple botrytis? In which case, a good fungicide applied 2 or 3 times during the growth period should fix it
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Re-reading the symptoms, apparently NOT botrytis. Ignor the post immediately above. :-[
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Gerry thank you for that information.I will look into getting the product.Cost will be a consideration because I only have a small number of frits,which are of course getting less as time goes by. If practicable I will give it a go.
I see both are available from Viresco Uk.Ltd
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Could someone ID this please. Looks like acmopetala without the colouring but the flower is almost twice the size,and the plant is 45cm high.
Fritillaria ?
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I can't be sure but it really does look like an acmopetala form. There are some so-called "yellow" forms with no or few markings and greenery-yallery colour. But maybe someone else.....?
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I can't be sure but it really does look like an acmopetala form. There are some so-called "yellow" forms with no or few markings and greenery-yallery colour. But maybe someone else.....?
This was my thought too, based on the flower shape, but without seeing the inside of the flower (the nectaries & style)) & the arrangement of the leaves it's almost impossible to pronounce.
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Flowering now in the bulb frame: Fritillaria aurea and Fritillaria sewerzowii
Flowering in the garden: Fritillaria raddeana
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Michael,
Can it be the yellow form of Fr.pyrenaica?
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Michael,
Can it be the yellow form of Fr.pyrenaica?
OlegKon - Yes, that is a possiblility I hadn't thought of. We really need to see the inside of the flower & the leaves before any definite ID.
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Flowering today Fritillaria hermonis amana, F.hermonis amana 'Belen', F. nigra, F.crassifolia crassifolia and F.pinardii.
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The first fritillary here:
After some years of search and growing experiments Frit. aurea is finally flowering:
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@ Simon, re the "transmutium theory" it went sown well. It got published elsewhere too. I've been waiting by the letterbox for the Nobel Peace prize nomination for a few years now. I think it must have got lost in the post. They are not replying to my e-mails anymore which is not a good sign :(
Anyway, I think the last of the Frits for this year, F. erharti, from Archibald seed, F. graceca, F. crassifolia crassifolia and my "brown" F. carica..which might be F. pinardii.
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Mark- yes your F.carica 'Brown' looks very much like F.pinardii- strangely my F.carica 'Brown' looked suspiciously like F.crassifolia. :-\
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Anyway, I think the last of the Frits for this year, F. erharti, from Archibald seed, F. gacea, F. crassifolia crassifolia and my "brown" F. carica..which might be F. pinardii.
Mark - that's a very beautiful F. crassifolia subsp. crassifolia . It looks very like a form I had years ago which, like so many of my frits, eventually departed for a better life elsewhere. Does it have rather 'waxy' tepals & do you have the JJA reference number?
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The F.crassifolia wasn't from seed. I think I got it from Norman Stevens at one of the RHS Shows (to then take back on the tube, train, car home after a spell in the office). I had a more "normal" F. crassifolia (which has now gone) so I picked out the most unmarked yellow green one I could find.
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I can't be sure but it really does look like an acmopetala form. There are some so-called "yellow" forms with no or few markings and greenery-yallery colour. But maybe someone else.....?
This was my thought too, based on the flower shape, but without seeing the inside of the flower (the nectaries & style)) & the arrangement of the leaves it's almost impossible to pronounce.
Here is a not very good pic of the inside of the flower (excuse the fingers ,difficult task without assistance) and a pic beside the ordinary Acmopetala showing the difference in height. It did the same last year.
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The F.crassifolia wasn't from seed. I think I got it from Norman Stevens at one of the RHS Shows (to then take back on the tube, train, car home after a spell in the office). I had a more "normal" F. crassifolia (which has now gone) so I picked out the most unmarked yellow green one I could find.
Mark - my plant also came from Norman (by mail order) & I remember him being none too pleased that he had sent me the much more attractive & less common yellow-green form; I think he was trying to build up his stock.
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I can't be sure but it really does look like an acmopetala form. There are some so-called "yellow" forms with no or few markings and greenery-yallery colour. But maybe someone else.....?
This was my thought too, based on the flower shape, but without seeing the inside of the flower (the nectaries & style)) & the arrangement of the leaves it's almost impossible to pronounce.
Here is a not very good pic of the inside of the flower (excuse the fingers ,difficult task without assistance) and a pic beside the ordinary Acmopetala showing the difference in height. It did the same last year.
Michael - on the basis of your last pics I'd say probably F. acmopetala. Your other plants are definitely that species so if the nectaries & the style branches look broadly similar, that would clinch it. Martyn Rix (in Flora of Turkey) gives the height as 15 - 45cm.
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I'd say acmopetala, Michael 8)
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Yes, I think so too Michael. NIce to have an unmarked form. Funnily enough, Simon's last pic in Reply no 164 also looks like acmopetala to me. He has it as pinardii.
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Funnily enough, Simon's last pic in Reply no 164 also looks like acmopetala to me. He has it as pinardii.
Hi Lesley, the F.pinardii is one I bought a good few years ago as a collection form Buried Treasure. I have another collection, both of these are different to the 'normal' F.pinardii. It's one of those times when you wonder if it is a hybrid or an intergrading between species. It could also be they have been renamed since I bought them, as I haven't had their catalgoue in at least 5 years.
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We took some new pics of the Fritillaria pinardii. These are the ones I have growing as Fritillaria pinardii RRW9326 and RRW92140. Also Fritillaria alfredae subsp glaucoviridis. The last is F.imperialis inodora in the open garden. The plant was purchased as F.eduardii for fair words of money at an AGS show - but soon proved to be untrue.
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this is Fritillaria kotschyana .The seed was originally from Kiev Botanic Garden but they came to me as bulbils
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this is Fritillaria kotchyanus .The seed was originally from Kiev Botanic Garden but they came to me as bulbils
Tony - this bears a strong resemblance to F. grandiflora. But then, some people think grandiflora is a subsp. or form of F. kotschyana. So it seems you pay your money.........
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Tony , I grow the same F. kotschyana as you under the name grandiflora - but see
Gerry's comment .
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Sorry to be pedantic but the correct name is Fritillaria kotschyana. Compare with Crocus kotschyanus.
Both are named after the Austrian Botanist Theodor Kotschy (1813 - 1866).
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Gerry I do not mind you being pedantic,I have amended my post.Thank you.
Otto I got mine from Dieter Zschummel in Germany. He said at the time he was doubtful about the naming.In the abscence of anything better I kept with what I was given.As usual the names seem a mess in frits like all the other bulbs we grow.
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Flowering now in the greenhouse - Fritillaria recurva.
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Isn't it a lovely thing Roma? I spent all the year looking forward to mine when it flowers in October.
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Two more in flower for me today
Frit Yuminensis
Frit Rixii
and Ferganensis and Walujewii Regal to follow shortly,not a very good picture of Rixii apologies for that
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Fritillaria ruthenica (or at least the plant I grow as this) and Fritillaria affinis (?) today in the garden.
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Fritillaria ruthenica (or at least the plant I grow as this) and Fritillaria affinis (?) today in the garden.
Simon - the leaves don't look right for F. ruthenica, they should be tendril-like at the tips very like F. thunbergii (= F. verticillata of gardens). I suspect your plant is one of the confusing F. tenella, F. nigra complex.
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Can anyone tell me the difference between F elwesii and F latakiensis. I have both from reputable sources and also some coming up in other pots, probably due to transfer of the huge amount of rice they make. They all look identical except for height, and some are single headed, some double. None of this seems enough to differentiate them and I wonder if mine are actually all the same. All sources of information that I can find do not give enough information about both to confirm identity one way or the other.
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Can anyone tell me the difference between F elwesii and F latakiensis.
Diane
I think I remember that the style of F latakiensis is clearly divided into three while F elwesii has a more or less undivided style.
I will have a look at my plants in the daylight tomorrow.
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Thanks Gerry- I have 3 patches outside from different sources, so I'll check tomorrow to see if any have tendrils. The 'real' F.ruthenica is on our list of ones to find here in Bulgaria- one day.
Diane - the ones I have grown as F.latakiensis have always made a slimmer, narrower flower than the ones I grow as F.elwesii. Mine are not quite flowering yet, and maybe they came from the same sources as yours anyway ;)
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Fritillaria ruthenica (or at least the plant I grow as this) and Fritillaria affinis (?) today in the garden.
I'm not sure about the F. affinis either as it usually has an open bell shape, and the leaves are different, in a whorl at the base, 4 or 5 leaves all on the same plane. This one doesn't look like an American to me. Happy to be corrected though.
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Can anyone tell me the difference between F elwesii and F latakiensis.
Diane
I think I remember that the style of F latakiensis is clearly divided into three while F elwesii has a more or less undivided style.
I will have a look at my plants in the daylight tomorrow.
Martyn Rix (Flora of Turkey) says both have trifid styles though the branches are shorter in F. elwesii where the style is 7 - 10mm, very stout with branches of 1 - 3.5 mm. In F. latakiensis the style is 8-9 mm & it is divided to the middle. The most obvious difference is that the perianth segments of F. elwesii have a clear green stripe.
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Lesley -the F.affinis is a guess on my behalf as it was planted out with the label F.montana- the nearest label to this particular bulb when it was rescued from our vole attacked bulb bed. I'd love to know what it is as i certianly don't remember having anything like this flower for me before.
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Thanks Gerry- I have 3 patches outside from different sources, so I'll check tomorrow to see if any have tendrils. The 'real' F.ruthenica is on our list of ones to find here in Bulgaria- one day.
Simon - it would be very good if you could find the 'real' F. ruthenica. I had it about 20 years ago from Ole Sřnderhausen. Sadly the plant is long departed as, even more sadly, is Sřnderhausen. All the plants I have seen since under this name have been misidentified. I remember a very good painting of the real thing some years ago in, I think, The Plantsman but I don't have a copy.
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Gerry- i was hoping the F.ruthenica was true as the flowers looked like the pic in a guide- but the guide also says, as you did that the species, has tendrils. Anyway the real thing is supposed to grow over in the West of Bulgaria in the hills along the Serbian and Macedonian- along with F.montana and F.meleagroides- according to our Flora Bulgarica.
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Before reading Lesley's post I too was questioning the affinis. It is nothing like anything I've seen under that name before..... and those I have flowered in the past (i don't think mine survive any more) were definitely not downward facing squared bell flowers like that one. Unless there are different forms of course?
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Fritillaria messanensis this morning just beginning to open and moreof the Fritillaria from yesterday. There is more red in the flower today and the leaves are alternate up the stems- the style is deeply split into 3- any help would be appreciated.
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I think I remember that the style of F latakiensis is clearly divided into three while F elwesii has a more or less undivided style. I will have a look at my plants in the daylight tomorrow.
Martyn Rix (Flora of Turkey) says both have trifid styles though the branches are shorter in F. elwesii where the style is 7 - 10mm, very stout with branches of 1 - 3.5 mm. In F. latakiensis the style is 8-9 mm & it is divided to the middle. The most obvious difference is that the perianth segments of F. elwesii have a clear green stripe.
One problem is that I find the the literature confusing. The description of the "green stripe" is not used consistently.
Martyn Rix in 'Bulbs' say F elwesii has a lobed style and increases well by numerous bulbils (the photo of elwesii shows green outer tepals rather than a stripe, I think, although not clear as the flower is dissected.) F latakiensis he gives no description, although the photo shows what looks to me like a green stripe. In Peter Sheasby's 'Bulbous plants of Turkey and Iran' he describes F elwesii as having a strong green stripe, although the photo shows almost all the outer tepals as green, and his photo of F latakiensis is not really any different although I suppose the outers are completely green. The style might be a better diagnosis, but my plants are not yet fully developed. I'll take some pictures when they are.
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Fritillaria ruthenica (or at least the plant I grow as this) and Fritillaria affinis (?) today in the garden.
I'm not sure about the F. affinis either as it usually has an open bell shape, and the leaves are different, in a whorl at the base, 4 or 5 leaves all on the same plane. This one doesn't look like an American to me. Happy to be corrected though.
Simon - last night I looked at David King's chapter on frits in Bulbs of North America. Although I was unable to come to any definite conclusions as regards identity I am persuaded that it is American, so it could be F. affinis - apparently very variable. I also discovered that the online version of Flora of North America has a key to frits which, if you have the patience, might enable you to track it down:
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=113029
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Two classics which I finally seem to have the hang of. They seem to like a dryish Summer and rich soil. The red one is a named cultivar, but I thought it was Schlagzwerd (sp?), but I have my doubts.
Also, a F. meleagris alba which popped-up from seed.
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Lovely frits everyone,
this one's not very special but he's flowering now in my garden:
Fritillaria meleagris
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Thanks for the link Gerry- I used it but it kept keying out as Fritillaria affinis ::)
I think I may have to wait until it goes dormant, so that I can check the bulb. In the meantime I'm very happy with it whatever it may be.
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Okay sorry to be a bore- butthe Frit I am having problems with was nearest a label for F.montana- after the voles had been through. So i just wondered could it really be an odd form of F.montana? Has anyone ever had pale forms of this plant? Or is it an oddity that may be cultural and not repeated next year?
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Simon, montana is VERY variable! Yours might well be a form of montana wnich would be European of course! .....it's not an affinis to my eyes. We're thinking about it here ::)
Frit. agrestis is a possibility, for an american!
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At least the frits are starting to flower here
1.+ 2. Fritillaria meleagris - a pale flowering selection made by Herbert Sterz, Magdeburg
3. + 4. Fritillaria tubiformis ssp. moggridgei from the Alpes Maritimes
5. + 6. Fritillaria messanensis ssp. atlantica from the High Atlas
Gerd
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This form selected by Stretz is very beautiful.The pale form of F. meleagris that has the lovely shading on the outside is as pretty as an all white one....these flowers are exquisite in all their guises and will always be very special to me. It is the best thing that they are widely available and grow in many situations.... and growing them from seed will allow one to find new tones and colours to charm .
The short, fat bell of the last photo is adorable! :D
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Thanks Maggi- I never thought to see if the flowers were smelly- I will check tomorrow!
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Some more Frits from me today
Frit Walujewii
The first picture showing the outer of flower
The second the inner
Frit Ferganensis,again the first showing the outer
The second the inner
Frit Frankorum/Frankiorum,not really sure whether correct name has yet been sorted
Frit Affinis,from canada
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Lovely Frits but the first two are not F walujewii. I have it and lable it aff. walujewii.
Jean
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Is that Affinis Walujewii ,Jean?
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Chas, it's a frit with an AFFinity to walujewii ......nothing to do with Fritillaria affinis... confusing , ain't it?
"affinis (aff.): with affinity to others, akin to; often used for a provisionally recognized but unnamed taxon considered close to that name, perhaps a hybrid or extreme variant. "
also .... cf. : confer - latin .... to compare for closely similar but nontheless different plants :-X
I see your "ferganensis" as tortifolia.... ???
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Chas, it's a frit with an AFFinity to walujewii ......nothing to do with Fritillaria affinis... confusing , ain't it?
"affinis (aff.): with affinity to others, akin to; often used for a provisionally recognized but unnamed taxon considered close to that name, perhaps a hybrid or extreme variant. "
also .... cf. : confer - latin .... to compare for closely similar but nontheless different plants :-X
I see your "ferganensis" as tortifolia.... ???
Chas - I agree with Maggi: F. ferganensis looks like F. tortifolia. I'm unsure about F. walujewii.
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Check the picture in Roger Phillips & Martin Rix Bulb Book if you have it.
I have a Lawrence Greenwood painting and it is just like the photo.
Jean
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Check the picture in Roger Phillips & Martin Rix Bulb Book if you have it.
I have a Lawrence Greenwood painting and it is just like the photo.
Jean
Jean - I agree it looks somewhat different to the pic in The Bulb Book, but I also looked in Flora of China, hence my uncertainty. However, I've just looked at Flora of the USSR & the description there seems to indicate that Chas' plant is probably not F. walujewii.
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Ah, I looked at ferganensis as Tortifolia,then thought that the bells were not elongated enough,the only reference I have is the leaflet and invoice from when I purchased themfrom PC plants,and walujewii is supposed to be walujewii regel,will see if there are any other pictures on the Frit group web site also,thanks one and all for your help
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Just to add a little to the confusion. The rather poor picture of F. walujewii in The Bulb Book is apparently from Martyn Rix & was taken in Central Asia, S of Ferghana. Insofar as one can judge from a picture, the appearance of this plant (more exactly, the flower) corresponds, more-or-less, to the description given in Flora of China. However, it does not correspond to the description given in Flora of the USSR. It appears that the species has a wide distribution across Asia & is, presumably, variable. I have a vague recollection of debates some years ago as to just what constituted F. walujewii. Although I think that Chasw's plant is probably not this species, I would be very hesitant to pronounce with certainty.
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The picture below shows the typical leaf arrangement of F. affinis. The leaves are arranged in whorls around the stem, not individually or alterately up the stem. I may be wrong of course but while the flowers vary tremendously, this leaf arrangement, so far as I understand, does not. When you dig the bulb, if it IS affinis it will have very many tiny rice-grain bulblets.
[attach=1]
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Lesley - Flora of North America confirms your statement that the leaves of F. affinis are whorled on the lower part of the stem & alternate on the upper part. Your pic shows this arrangement very clearly.
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Thanks Lesley- I think it will be a case of waiting till summer and checking what the bulbs look like. Incidentally I had a sniff today and the flowers just have the same smell F.acmopetala does- yeasty.
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Ah, I looked at ferganensis as Tortifolia,then thought that the bells were not elongated enough,the only reference I have is the leaflet and invoice from when I purchased themfrom PC plants,and walujewii is supposed to be walujewii regel,will see if there are any other pictures on the Frit group web site also,thanks one and all for your help
Chas - Flora of China (vol 24, Fritillaria) is available online:
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=113029
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More frits in the garden today- enjoying 2 solid weeks of sunshine here :)
Fritillaria graeca
Fritillaria messanensis
For Diane- if this helps- the plants I have been growing as F.latakiensis and F.elwesii- of course they may not be true. :-\
and in the bulb frame F.frankorum (?)
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Some more frits in the garden.
Fritillaria thunbergii
Fritillaria crassifolia
Fritillaria messanensis
and the troublesome one, at its final colour change- I'm sure now it is just a transvestite Fritillaria montana
;)
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and the troublesome one, at its final colour change- I'm sure now it is just a transvestite Fritillaria montana
;)
Simon - I agree; it's turned into F. montana. How curious!
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It's been a very interesting colour change. I am not sure if it is environmental and will to see if is repeated next year.
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A trio of Fritillaria crassifolia in the garden.
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Lovely pics everyone! 8)
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Wonderful collection Simon, F. montana is a stunner :o
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Thanks Oron- it's a shame the name Fritillaria mutabilis has already been taken ;)
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First year flowering here in Bulgaria;
Fritillaria imperialis 'Ruduke' ( from Janis )
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some Fritillarias
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What a luscious looking group by you wall - lovely photos Wolfgang - they obviously love your garden :)
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At last the main body of Fritillaria acmopetala have started to flower- lucky wasps ;)
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Wunderful pictures from everybody.
Thanks for introducing so many species.
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At the moment my Fritilleria meleagris are planted in a raised bulb bed as every bulb I plant here directly in the ground seems to have trouble multiplying - the hope is that they will migrate down the slope, find where they want to be and mix with the meadow grass. Any other hints or suggestions to encourage propagation would be gratefully received?
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Years ago mine increased by seeding around. They do like a moist place so perhaps it would be good to 'harvest' the seed and plant it in likely places. I once saw Fritillaria pyrenaica planted in a garden in NW UK where the prevailing wind scattered all the seed in one direction, resulting in a line of seedlings across the garden! So if you let nature scatter the seeds they may not go where you want them.
How deep is the natural soil in the meadow? Depth is important to many bulbs as they migrate downwards to find a level where the bulbs are 'comfortable'. Shallow soils dry faster and are less welcoming.
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Thanks for your advice, Tony, I will take a soil depth sample from the meadow on the front slope, there is a lot of competition once the grass starts growing I suppose but in the end I would like to use the bulb bed for more unusual Fritilleria and bulbs. I and am extending the bulb bed in to a scree slope for irises and plants that like to be sun-baked - the earth there is already very hot during the day.
Clearing conifers from the middle of the slope has exposed rocks where I want to create crevice garden - lots of inspiration in postings on the SRGC site for this!
Hope your garden is waking up with the Spring and that your gentians are giving you pleasure. ;D
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Here are some frits from today
Fritillaria lusitanica - a lower variant from the Sierra de Cazorla, Spain
and - once again, but I love it - Fritillaria pyrenaica
Gerd
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Gerd- you bet me to it- the first Fritillaria pyrenaica here in the garden.
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Wolfgang, there is a mistake : the picture of F. kotschyana is not right.
If not, I would be happy you can confirm me F. pontica ssp. substipelata, hereafter in comparison with the type : what do you think about ?
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Wolfgang, there is a mistake : the picture of F. kotschyana is not right
Some people (including me) would place Wolfgang's plant in F. grandiflora.Others would suggest that grandiflora is a subspecies of F. kotschyana. It seems, at present, that this is a matter of choice.
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If not, I would be happy you can confirm me F. pontica ssp. substipelata, hereafter in comparison with the type : what do you think about ?
François - in my opinion, & by comparison, your plant looks as though it probably is F. pontica ssp. substipelata though the examples I have previously seen of this have been rather darker in colour.
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thank you Gerry ;)
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Well now I am plum confused. if some plants can be split into new species for having slightly different coloured flowers, anthers etc.. Then how can F.pontica substipelata still be F.pontica, when it has reflexed petals and a different flower shape in these pics? ???
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Well now I am plum confused. if some plants can be split into new species for having slightly different coloured flowers, anthers etc.. Then how can F.pontica substipelata still be F.pontica, when it has reflexed petals and a different flower shape in these pics? ???
Simon - I've just checked in Flora of Turkey (Martyn Rix); substipelata is actually a variety not a subspecies. The name was coined by Candargy in 1898 based on some specimens from Lesvos but it is not recognised by the RBG Kew Checklist.
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Thanks Gerry, but I am still confused how a variety with a widely different flower shape is still thought to be part of F.pontica. Maybe there are F.pontics forms in Northern Greece and he Turkish coast opposite Lesvos that are intermediates. The F.pontica we have seen so far in Bulgaria are all the typical shape, with the only differences being in the amount of colouring on the inners.
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I can't help Simon. I just presume that in all respects, other than flower shape, the plant corresponds with F. pontica.
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Sorry Gerry, just thinking out loud really. It seems that for some Fritillaria species growing on an island 5 miles off the mainland, and having slightly different coloured flowers sends you straight into the new species department, as with the whole Fritillaria 'graeca' complex.
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I'm not a Fritillaria specialist - but I want to show this F. imperialis anyway because it has a story.
I must have had it for 15 years or so and after good flowering the first 8 or 9 years - the flowers became less and less.
Having applied loads of potash after the bulblogs instructions for 3 or 4 years - last year - no flowers again.
I decided to lift them - did so in May last year - put them in a basket in the Veranda (where it can get as warm as 35°C or more) and forgot about them...
Found them in September seeing roots already starting to grow... I decided to replant them anyway and put loads of dried cow manure and more potash in the hole.
This is the result...
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Wow! That is an impressive result, Luc ... they are very handsome 8)
Now, where to find 35 degrees in Aberdeen...... ::) ???
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Luc,
impressive frits. It makes a great show but also smells ::)
Any signs of "Lilienhähnchen" (Lilioceris lilii) ?
I killed already a dozen...
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Wow! That is an impressive result, Luc ... they are very handsome 8)
Now, where to find 35 degrees in Aberdeen...... ::) ???
Or cows, for the manure??? ;D
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Wow! That is an impressive result, Luc ... they are very handsome 8)
Now, where to find 35 degrees in Aberdeen...... ::) ???
Or cows, for the manure??? ;D
Hmmm,
Luc lives in West-Flanders: there are a lot of cows over there... ;) ;)
Very impressive Frits, Luc. They seem to have liked that treatment
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But maybe not so many in Aberdeen, Wim. :)
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Maybe there are some Scottish lowland-cows in the vicinity?? ;)
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Thanks for the encouraging remarks friends ! :D
Dried cow manure is sold in pellets in bags out here so no need to go on a search in the local meadows... if need be, I can send a bag to Aberdeen ;D ???
As to 35 °C I don't see how I can get that to Aberdeen ?? ::)
No sign of Lilly beetles yet Armin, but I'm vigilant... ;)
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No sign of Lilly beetles yet Armin, but I'm vigilant... ;)
It's bad enough with Lily Allen!! ;D
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Sorry Cliff, I don't have the privilege of knowing Lily Allen... ::) judging from your remark though, I might not be missing much ;)
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Hi Luc ... if you had little else to do, an inquisitive nature and asbestos ears, then you could always try entering the name in You Tube ... ? :) :) :)
Kind regards from Ga-Ga land.
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Fritillaria imperialis in a standard orange is found in every old garden in the villages here. Patches of it can have 20 or 30+ flowerspikes and make quite an impact for a few weeks in spring. They never seem to be tended or fed and are basically gardened around. So maybe it is the summer 'baking' that has the greater impact on flowering potential. :-\
Personally I would far rather have Lily Allen in the garden eating my Frits and Lilies, than the the little red devils I normally find out there ;)
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Summer baking is definitely not what they're getting out here when they stay in the ground in a Belgian Summer Simon ::)
Cliff - I might try youtube... just out of curiosity.
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I guess that's why they are so happy here, Luc. ;)
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Wolfgang, there is a mistake : the picture of F. kotschyana is not right
Some people (including me) would place Wolfgang's plant in F. grandiflora.Others would suggest that grandiflora is a subspecies of F. kotschyana. It seems, at present, that this is a matter of choice.
hallo Gerry and biodiversite,
I have my "F. kotschyana?" about 10 years ago by the nursery Wetzel purchased.
Thes vary in color, you can still darker.
Regard wolfgang
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Maybe there are some Scottish lowland-cows in the vicinity?? ;)
Oh Wim, you wouldn't be calling Maggi............ :o ;D
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Maybe there are some Scottish lowland-cows in the vicinity?? ;)
Oh Wim, you wouldn't be calling Maggi............ :o ;D
:o :o
Lesley, you have a very bad mind. I hadn't thought about it that way. I was really thinking about the animal not the human form of...
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Going back to the Lilly Beetle,my other half,killed 12 yesterday,killed while coppulating................................................
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There is absolutely NO answer to that ... !!! ::)
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Hang on.... is that Cliff virtually speechless? :o :o :o :o :o :o
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There is absolutely NO answer to that ... !!! ::)
Well, the obviously know nothing about safe sex, do they! ::) ::)
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This beautifull frit with huge flowers I got from my Ukrainian friend Dmitriy who baught it from some Russian gardener under name Fritillaria grandiflora. It seem to be superb form of F. kotschyana grandiflora from Talish mnt (S Aserbaijan).
Janis
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Janis that is a very fine robust form.
No lily beetles here yet. They appeared for the first time two years ago.
Here is a bulb that has appeared in my garden in a dry spot under an ornamental cherry. i think it must have been thrown out with some old potting compost and is not one I have ever flowered.I think it is a frit but would be glad of any ideas.
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There is absolutely NO answer to that ... !!! ::)
Well, the obviously know nothing about safe sex, do they! ::) ::)
No fortunately they do not. I also kill a surprising number in pairs.
Göte
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Here is a bulb that has appeared in my garden in a dry spot under an ornamental cherry. i think it must have been thrown out with some old potting compost and is not one I have ever flowered.I think it is a frit but would be glad of any ideas.
It resembles a very robust form of F maximowiczii (spelling??) I suggest a look in Flora of China (Use google i do not have the URL in my head)
Göte
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PS
Is it not amazing what we try to throw away ??? ;D ;D ;D
Göte
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Janis that is a very fine robust form.
No lily beetles here yet. They appeared for the first time two years ago.
Here is a bulb that has appeared in my garden in a dry spot under an ornamental cherry. i think it must have been thrown out with some old potting compost and is not one I have ever flowered.I think it is a frit but would be glad of any ideas.
Looks like a F. affinis tristulis to me, Tony.
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Maggi that is what I first thought but I have looked at pictures on Calphotos and although similar it does not really fit.My flowers have never opened like those on affinis.Perhaps its a new sub species!! Gote suggested a Chinese species but I have never had a Chines frit although it could have come in as something else when I bought from China.
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Tony this is the one Gote suggested
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027638 (http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027638) and
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=60541&flora_id=2 (http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=60541&flora_id=2)
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Simon thank you.
it is very difficult to see,it is under a cherry in the middle of a bed.I had to hold the camera at arms length to photograph it,so close observation is not easy. perhaps I will dig it up when it starts to die down and put it in a pot for next year.
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Noooooo! It looks happy where it is! :o
Down with pots!!
F.maximowiczii looks to have tendrils on its leaves like F.thunbergii.
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I am pretty sure that it is a tristulis...... they do not open their flowers as wide as an ordinary affinis, they hold them closer and the almost "toothed" edges, giving a look of a crocodile mouth is distinctive.... I'll see if I can track down some pix for you.... ::)
Here we go, most of the flowers in these pix are fully open, but you can see, at the top of the last pic, some of the more closed buds, looking very reptilian, like Tony's flowers.....
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
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Here's Tony's plant again for easier comparison...
the shape of the "shoulders", the reptilian look to the bud and the golden colouring to the edges of the petals is just right.
[attach=1]
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Maggi,
A while back there was an ID request where I commented that the flower was too square for affinis..... every affinis I have seen here looks like the ones you have just posted (i.e with the rippled edges and different shape), although with various amounts of markings to them and never as dark as those you've shown. I never realised that those here were a particular "type" of affinis, so it is good to know that now. Not sure if any of mine survive now, but I really must check and see. The Frits have actually survived quite well a few years of neglect in pots. I was surprised last year when I repotted them and found most of them had at least some form of bulb/bulbils in there still surviving. F. affinis was however from memory one of those that didn't make it. ::) I rather liked the "toothed" edge as you called it.
Great stuff!! Thanks for an accidental ID for me as well. ;D
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Paul, you may find these two affinis forms interesting to see....
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
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Here we go, most of the flowers in these pix are fully open, but you can see, at the top of the last pic, some of the more closed buds, looking very reptilian, like Tony's flowers.....
Maggi, those are absolutely gorgeous!! :o
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Maggi
I am sure you are right.Your second picture on post 278 is just right for the plant apart from my flowers not being fully open.This may be because we have had no rain for two weeks(unheard of) and they stopped developing.It is raining a little now.
Thanks for the help everybody
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Tony, the foliage on yours definitely says F. affinis. That low whorl in the first picture is absolutely typical and as you see from Maggi's pics, the flowers come from the leaf axils.
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Those F. affinis forms are interesting Maggi.
Mine seems to be the 'usual' form, although it came as 'Sunray' which presumably should look more like the yellow one you show :-\
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Maggi,
The first of your last two you posted is very similar to what I have/had. Nowhere near as dark as the others you posted, and nothing like the more squared varieties. I rather like yours too, Ashley.
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While some Fritillaria pyrenaica are over some new tones appear + some F. lusitanica
1. - 4. F. pyrenaica in different shades
5. Colourful couple - enjoying spring despite of an insecticide spray yesterday
6. - 9. F. lusitanica from different sources
Gerd
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Super colour variations Gerd, are these seed grown by yourself?
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Thank you Chris!
Only the Fritillaria pyrenaicas are from seeds (AGS) - some ex yellow form.
Gerd
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Super frits, Gerd.... especially the first yellow pyrenaica..... lovely form!
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Thank you Maggi -
and the best is - all are so easy outside!
Gerd
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F. pyrenaica in different shades
Gerd, I love the colour and markings on these Frits especially - they look like silk
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I am pretty sure that it is a tristulis...... they do not open their flowers as wide as an ordinary affinis, they hold them closer and the almost "toothed" edges, giving a look of a crocodile mouth is distinctive.... I'll see if I can track down some pix for you.... ::)
Here we go, most of the flowers in these pix are fully open, but you can see, at the top of the last pic, some of the more closed buds, looking very reptilian, like Tony's flowers.....
I am quite sure you are right maggie,
Maximowiczii is much leaner in all repects although I have never seen any tendrils. The general bulild is similar, however, One whorl of leaves distinct bracts and conical flower when not fully open.
Göte.
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Here is a bulb that has appeared in my garden in a dry spot under an ornamental cherry. i think it must have been thrown out with some old potting compost and is not one I have ever flowered.I think it is a frit but would be glad of any ideas.
Looks like a F. affinis tristulis to me, Tony.
Audrey II from "Little Shop of Horrors"?
;D
cheers
fermi
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Fermi, thanks for that comparison.... I was thinking the plant from " Little Shop of Horrors", but I didn't know the name!! ;D
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Thought this frit might be F. pyrenaica but not too sure.
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Does pyrenaica usually have those very square shoulders? I don't remember mine as having them.
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One of my 'paler' F.pyrenaica out in the garden today.
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Gerd , your 2 first yellow F. pyrenaica are very nice - F. pyrenaica is also happily growing here in the open in my garden .
Mike , I'm pretty certain your Frit . is pyrenaica .
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This beautifull frit with huge flowers I got from my Ukrainian friend Dmitriy who baught it from some Russian gardener under name Fritillaria grandiflora. It seem to be superb form of F. kotschyana grandiflora from Talish mnt (S Aserbaijan).
Janis
Janis,
I also grow this wonderful huge frit from Dmitriy and it is among my most favourite fritillarias. Stunning plant that I enjoy a lot!
click the pix to enlarge
[attachthumb=1]
[attachthumb=2]
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It looks wonderful against the grey of the rock and the colour inside of the flower is an added bonus - I wish it could become my favourite too :)
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Here started blooming of frits from Far East (Siberia) and China (in greenhouse)
Janis
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Flowering today in the shade garden- Fritillaria meleagris 'Jupiter(?)'
Nice Frit house, Janis :P
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Flowering today in the shade garden- Fritillaria meleagris 'Jupiter(?)'
Nice Frit house, Janis :P
Thanks Simon. But this one isn't JUPITER.
Here first frits blooms outside - armena, caucasica, alburyana, aurea. After three years interruption the weather conditions allows blooming of georgous F. eduardii and raddeana. Although returned night frosts they are not so hard to kill plants as it happens in last springs.
Janis
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Thanks Janis. Any idea which form it might be?
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Thanks Janis. Any idea which form it might be?
Unknown to me. Most possibly seedling. There are plenty on trade and very variable.
Janis
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Two Fritillaria affinis flowering today in the garden. One is growing in clay under a tree, the other is growing in rubble, with added leaf mould, at the back of the house. ;)
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Few new frits just now blooming in greenhouse. The rarest is Fritillaria fusca from Nepal, near Lhasa, Caqrola pass, 5000m (I can't to wait when flower will open - I waited for this 7 years - bulbs I baught in 2001).
Janis
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Two Fritillaria affinis flowering today in the garden. One is growing in clay under a tree, the other is growing in rubble, with added leaf mould, at the back of the house. ;)
So which is happiest do you think, Simon ;)
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Few new frits just now blooming in greenhouse. The rarest is Fritillaria fusca from Nepal, near Lhasa, Caqrola pass, 5000m (I can't to wait when flower will open - I waited for this 7 years - bulbs I baught in 2001).
Janis
Is the other plant a young one in the same pot, Janis? The leaf colour of the F. fusca is very dark and dusky and I'm looking forward to seeing the flower open too. You have some wonderful specimens in your greenhouse, it's great to see such variety of Frits and rarities too. :)
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Two Fritillaria affinis flowering today in the garden. One is growing in clay under a tree, the other is growing in rubble, with added leaf mould, at the back of the house. ;)
So which is happiest do you think, Simon ;)
It's hard to say- the one planted in clay was a bigger bulb with more umph. Needless to say the haven't been disturbed by voles ;)
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Janis what an amazing colour to Fritillaria fusca
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Few new frits just now blooming in greenhouse. The rarest is Fritillaria fusca from Nepal, near Lhasa, Caqrola pass, 5000m (I can't to wait when flower will open - I waited for this 7 years - bulbs I baught in 2001).
Janis
Is the other plant a young one in the same pot, Janis? The leaf colour of the F. fusca is very dark and dusky and I'm looking forward to seeing the flower open too. You have some wonderful specimens in your greenhouse, it's great to see such variety of Frits and rarities too. :)
Every year some are dark and some light leaved (fusca). This one is the first to flower. In another pot no one will bloom and one is with dark leaves. I suppose that when I grew it outside all were with dark leaves. It is second year in pot and 4th in greenhouse. Really wondering about its blooming. Look at altitude from which it comes. Such plants usually are very difficult even to grow. I have problems with Corydalis cashmiriana here, but Frit. chitralensis grow quite well and blooms every year but I never got seeds.
Janis
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Few frits from open garden
- Two selections of eduardii, superb form of michailowskyi with large flowers - best from some 10 aquisitions and aurea (dwarf form) and latifolia as they grow on open garden bed.
Janis
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Two more frits from Siberia & China
Janis
Fritillaria walujewii
Fritillaria taipaiensis
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Janis,
Did you ever decide on a name for the Chinese Frit. that is grey on the outside and checkered purple on the inside? For a while it was thought to be F. walujewii but is obviously not.
Also a couple of other versions of F. taipaiensis.
Susan
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Susan, I had a very similar Frit to your Frit1, which was bought as F.tachenensis. I never found any reference to it online and became unsure as to whether it was wrongly named when I bought it or if I made the name up from a spelling mistake. It was the same shape as yours, with small leaftip tendrils, but plaer and unfortunately sterile- it had pink pollen and contorted stigmas.
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Simon,
I got them from China under a few different names. It sets seed here but the seedlings haven't got to flowering size yet.
It seems to like it here outside in a gritty bed. I need a name in anticipation of them getting to saleable size ;D
Susan
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Having lost mine, I would happily buy yours as 'Frit1 id unknown'!
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Nice to see all the different Frits.. truly great plants.
First one out here this season is F. armena
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Janis,
Did you ever decide on a name for the Chinese Frit. that is grey on the outside and checkered purple on the inside? For a while it was thought to be F. walujewii but is obviously not.
Also a couple of other versions of F. taipaiensis.
Susan
Susan,
This chinese I got under all possible names. I tried to name it using Flora of China and the single one to which it approximates turned F. monanthos, but I'm not sure that it is correct name - see picture attached. Easy and difficult in same time with me. Bulbs quite strange - large and usually looks not healthy - strangely greyish toned. Good grower if left without replanting or replanted immediately. How to keep in bulb shed - don't know. In last time I dig it out just before despatching to customer - then travels well. If kept longer in bulb shed without protection - very soon start to wilt and dies. Keeping in sand helps very little and for short time. Keeping in plastic bag - induces rotting. I have good stocks as I got it under at least 10 different names. Slightly variable - are with green stem and leaves and with brownish stem and dark leaves. Flower slightly variable, too.
In addition fkowers of F. dagana and single bloom of F. davidii this year (plenty was last spring).
Janis
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Wow, certainly some species and varieties that I've never seen here!! Susan, I love that grey one of yours, and Janis there are so many of yours that are to die for. I've never seen a double meleagris before!! :o
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I have several times tried F. monantha from seed - various sources including the Frit Group - and it always has been F. nigra or something close.
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I have several times tried F. monantha from seed - various sources including the Frit Group - and it always has been F. nigra or something close.
Possibly it was montana, not monanthos? Montana is regarded as synonim of nigra by some botanists.
Janis
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Lesley, are you familar with Richard Dawkins principle of 'Hawks and Doves'?
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Here are two of my Frits from this spring.
Fritillaria aurea
Fritillaria latifolia
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I have several times tried F. monantha from seed - various sources including the Frit Group - and it always has been F. nigra or something close.
Possibly it was montana, not monanthos? Montana is regarded as synonim of nigra by some botanists.
Janis
Thank you Janis, that was probably the case, but it is annoying that at least three people are making the same mistake with their naming.
Hawks and doves? No, this has passed me by. Please?
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It's a theory relating to behavioural dynamics in natural populations. The doves give and the hawks take. Any given population can only survive a certain number of hawks before it all goes pear shaped and the ecosystem (or seed exchange) collapses.
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Zdenek,
Both are amazing. Such large flowers on such small plants. Neither have I ever grown here, but the aurea in particular I must try for at some stage as it is a cracker!! Thank you!
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Today F. fusca is in full bloom. Pity, only one plant, but it is first after 8 years long waiting!
Janis
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Wonderful leaves, Janis. Great combination with that coppery/bronze colour to the flower.
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Is F.fusca close to F.delavayi, Janis?
This is the plant I bought as F.delavayi about 5 or 6 years ago from China. It looks like F.cirrhosa to me.
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Is F.fusca close to F.delavayi, Janis?
This is the plant I bought as F.delavayi about 5 or 6 years ago from China. It looks like F.cirrhosa to me.
Yes, fusca is close to delavayi, although I saw only picture of last without flowers on mountain scree. Really I don't know the difference.
On picture can be cirrhosa. It is latest with me. All others are over when it blooms - outside only at end of June here
Janis
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Yes F.cirrhosa, is almost the last here too- only F.camschatcensis left to bloom.
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Today F. fusca is in full bloom. Pity, only one plant, but it is first after 8 years long waiting!
Janis
Some years ago I got the following as F fusca. I never tried to check the name and now it is gone anyway.
Anyone reoginzes it?
Göte
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Today F. fusca is in full bloom. Pity, only one plant, but it is first after 8 years long waiting!
Janis
Some years ago I got the following as F fusca. I never tried to check the name and now it is gone anyway.
Anyone reoginzes it?
Göte
It is very common "fusca" (and many others) from Chen-yi. I named it unibracteata, although it looks surprisingly similar to design of F. regelii in Flora of Tadjikistan. So possibly it is regelii. I never had regelii from Tadjikistan, so can't to judge.
Janis
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Today F. fusca is in full bloom. Pity, only one plant, but it is first after 8 years long waiting!
Janis
Some years ago I got the following as F fusca. I never tried to check the name and now it is gone anyway.
Anyone reoginzes it?
Göte
It is very common "fusca" (and many others) from Chen-yi. I named it unibracteata, although it looks surprisingly similar to design of F. regelii in Flora of Tadjikistan. So possibly it is regelii. I never had regelii from Tadjikistan, so can't to judge.
Janis
I agree with Janis, we had the same plant as F.unibracteata. Unfortunately it has failed to appear this year.
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Frit season finally started here.
1.Fritillaria tubiformis
2.Fritillaria severtzovii
3.Fritillaria caucasica
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Your "true" fusca is superb Janis and well worth the wait. The colours of flower and foliage are so subtle and different.
When you write your NEXT book (after the one we're all waiting for) could you include a large section on Fritillaria please. So many are not mentioned at all in the Pratt and Jefferson-Brown book, which is very frustrating.
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Your "true" fusca is superb Janis and well worth the wait. The colours of flower and foliage are so subtle and different.
When you write your NEXT book (after the one we're all waiting for) could you include a large section on Fritillaria please. So many are not mentioned at all in the Pratt and Jefferson-Brown book, which is very frustrating.
I agree with you that Pratt's an J-B book on frits is a little bit "strange" but we all wait now (for decades) when Rix's monograph will come out. My current book is now at Timber Press and I'm working now preparing pictures for it. I'm writing only in winters and the next one is in my mind but I'm afraid that for that one two winters would be needed. Of course, if my health problems will stop or decrease nursery activities, I will replace growing by writing. But I hope that still some years of growing is ahead.
Janis
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I'm sure we all share that hope Janis !! ;)
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Is F.fusca close to F.delavayi, Janis?
This is the plant I bought as F.delavayi about 5 or 6 years ago from China. It looks like F.cirrhosa to me.
This is frit delavayi growing in the wild it has taken me about 8 years to actually see it flower.
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Breathtaking picture John !!
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This is frit delavayi growing in the wild it has taken me about 8 years to actually see it flower.
You must have been over joyed to see this frit growing out of a crevice - the rock backdrop sets it off in a way I have never seen before in the wild and the colour is beautiful - what height did you find it growing at John and where was it?
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This is frit delavayi growing in the wild it has taken me about 8 years to actually see it flower.
You must have been over joyed to see this frit growing out of a crevice - the rock backdrop sets it off in a way I have never seen before in the wild and the colour is beautiful - what height did you find it growing at John and where was it?
It was growing on Big snow mountain near the sichuan border and its height was only 5 inches and also growing next to it was Rheum nobile in full flower. What a day
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Good grief. And it is just growing out of "rubble" like that? Amazing.
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Is F.fusca close to F.delavayi, Janis?
This is the plant I bought as F.delavayi about 5 or 6 years ago from China. It looks like F.cirrhosa to me.
This is frit delavayi growing in the wild it has taken me about 8 years to actually see it flower.
Your picture confused me, it looks very different from mine, but leaves seem to be identical. I just decided that my frit must be renaymed as delavayi. I checked its flower and it seem that anthers looks basifixed (delavayi) not subdorsifixed (fusca). Of course deifference between basi and subdorsi is very small. Tepals of my flower are very, even extremely thick, very hard. Hope it will rise seed capsule although I have only one flower (handpollinated). Then identification woul be easier as in delavayi capsule is narrowly winged, enclosed by persistent tepals (thickness of them seem to confirming long life). In fusca capsule is unwinged and not enclosed by tepals.
Janis
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some Fritillarias
F. pallidiflora
F. biflora Martha Roderick 1 purdyi
F. biflora Martha Roderick purdyi
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Pollinators
When I tried to take a pic of Fritillaria camschatcensis I disturbed a party of flies which were creeping around the stamina - some of them with their back loaden with pollen. When I smelled at the flowers I noted a musty odor which obviously attracted these insects. The dark color of the flowers suggests pollination by flies also.
If you look carefully one fly is visible inside the flower at the third pic.
Gerd
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Thank you Janis and Simon.
I will call my pictures 'unibracteata' As said my died also. :(
Göte
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Gerd,
I just noticed Your F camtschatkensis is different from mine. My blackish one has flowers where the tepals bend inwards whereas my yellow has this bell shape.
Swap??
Comments anyone?
Göte
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I would really like your opinions on this Fritillaria, photographed yesterday by a friend.
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I would really like your opinions on this Fritillaria, photographed yesterday by a friend.
Simon - looks like F. pontica, though I've never seen one with that flared flower shape.
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Yes Gerry, the pic was taken in the Strandja area of Bulgaria, in an oak wood, yesterday.
The altitude was about 200m and the F.pontica were still flowering, although they are setting seed in the mountains near us just now, where they are 500m higher.
It seems strange that they should be flowering now in the south, where the vegetation is moving into summer flowers.
The population showed a wider variation in flower form and colour than more northerly ones have done. The top leaves above the flowers are also considerably narrower and plants more gracile than standard F.pontica. Apart from the reflexed specimen some plants had flowers which were less bell shaped.
A few pages ago I was wondering whether F.pontica graded into F.pontica substipulata, as you moved further south through its range. It would be interesting if anyone has any pics of F.pontica from the area of Turkey adjacent to Bulgaria, as well as mainland Turkey opposite Lesvos.
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Very interesting Simon. It is certainly a more graceful form with narrower leaves than those I have seen in cultivation.
As regards F. pontica subsp substipelata: the RBG Monocot Checklist tells me that the accepted name is now F. theophrasti [Kamari & Phitos, Biol. Gallo-Hellen. 26(Suppl.): 70 (2000)]; i.e., it is now regarded as a distinct species.
I believe Kamari is a notorious 'splitter' (c.f 'F. graeca') so perhaps your Strandja form will eventually become a distinct species too!
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Thanks Gerry. So is Kamari the person who gave us F.mutabilis and other such wonders? If so, then I fear the patch of woodland in the Strandja will have at least 3 new species of Frit or subspecies of F.pontica all within the same quadrat. When, and if, I ever win a lottery, my mission will be to drive south from the Strandja into Turkey, then round to Lesvos just to see what happens to F.pontica on the way. ;)
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Thanks Gerry. So is Kamari the person who gave us F.mutabilis and other such wonders?
I think so.
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Wolfgang
Lovely frits. Are the two photos of F. martha roderick possibly F. purdyi. Attached two photos of what I have as F. affinis biflora Martha Roderick.
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Wolfgang
Lovely frits. Are the two photos of F. martha roderick possibly F. purdyi. Attached two photos of what I have as F. affinis Martha Roderick.
Mike - I think you are right about Wolfgang's plant - it does look like F. purdyi.
However, I'm not sure about the identity of your plant, though I am by no means familiar with all the American frits. The PBS website refers to F. affinis 'Wayne Roderick' (not 'Martha Roderick', which is a cultivar of F. biflora) but their pic looks nothing like your plant. Without seeing the leaf arrangement it is very difficult to determine whether this is a form of F. affinis. Earlier in this thread Lesley posted a photo of F. affinis showing the leaf arrangement very clearly.
Whatever your plant is, it's a very attractive frit.
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Thanks Gerry, not sure which part is not working correctly, my brain or my two typing fingers, the caption should read F. biflora Martha Roderick.
Mike
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Wolfgang
Lovely frits. Are the two photos of F. martha roderick possibly F. purdyi. Attached two photos of what I have as F. affinis Martha Roderick.
Yes and Yes, but 'Martha Roderick' is a biflora form, not affinis.
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Frits are in full swing
1. F.olivieri
2.? montana group?
3.F.orientalis?
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Some more
1.F.severtzovii
2.F.severtzovii yellow (very robust this year 70 sm)
3.F.ruthenica
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1.F.raddeana
2.F.kotchiana
3.F.hermonis amana
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1.F.montana
2.F.ussuriensis
3.F.aurea
Love them all
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Fine plants Oleg and Mike. They're obviously very happy 8)
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Beautiful, Oleg. Favourite of mine is that last aurea. Great stuff!! Thanks.
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Oleg, your Frits look magnificent, thanks for showing them :)
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Fritillarias starting to flower in the north too:
Fritillaria pudica 09
Fritillaria latifolia 09
Fritillaria stenanthera 09
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Oleg and Magnar , you both grow superb Frits ,
Oleg your F. sewertzowii [yellow] is the most robust specimen I have ever seen ,and your
raddeana seems to be a deeper shade of creamy-yellow than normal-or is it the sunlight?
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Otto, The robustness of F.severtzovii surprises me this year as well. As for the colour of F.raddeana, it changes the shade slightly while ageing.
Some more frits for today
1.Fritillaria graeca
2.Fritillaria elwesii
3.Fritillaria maximovichii
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1.Fritillaria drenovskii
2.Fritillaria grandiflora
3.Fritillaria uva-vulpis
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Flowering just now after a few years in rehab- Fritillaria camschatcensis
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Yet this one Simon, is very weedy in NZ making millions of babies which get EVERYWHERE! I still like it very much but am always pulling out single leaves where they shouldn't be.
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I like it a lot too, Lesley- the 'rehab' is because the place where they lived for 2 years had been invaded by voles. Although they didn't eat much, they undermined all of the plants to make a hazelnut store. We were wondering why the plants were getting smaller each year and a little digging last summer revealed they were 'floating' and very dry at the root. A great plant to have as a weed though- at the moment my main weed in this bed is Nicotiana. :-\
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I never cease to be grateful that we have no voles, moles, crocus-loving mice (ours haven't aquired the taste - yet) and others which are the bain of northern gardeners' lives. Not even wombats, echidnas or snakes with which the Aussies do battle. The occasional possum or bunny is small beer in comparison and the bunnies have mostly gone, while possums keep to the bush. Thank you Lord!
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Yes, I guess it will take some time before the NZ native fauna adapts to eating bulbs ;) We are touching wood, that so far we have no pack rats here.
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Simon,
If it is going to be native to NZ then it is either going to have to be birds or bats.... they have no other native mammals at all. Unfortunately they do now have some Australian imports such as Possums and Wallabies though. ::) And then there are the carnivorous things like stoats etc that are helping to decimate the native wildlife. So sad really, as so many of the NZ native birds are so unique as they all occupy the niches in the ecosystem that everywhere else has mammals. There's some fascinating native wildlife in NZ.
But I digress..... back to Fritillarias...... there are some amazing ones in here again. I do love the sewertzowii (I have liked every picture I have ever seen of it) and that elwesii is just so elegant. So many other brilliant ones in here as well though. Thanks all.
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Simon,
There's some fascinating native wildlife in NZ.
Well loook at me, for instance. ;D
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::)
;D ;)
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Simon,
There's some fascinating native wildlife in NZ.
Well loook at me, for instance. ;D
So are you prone to run amok- nibbling at rare native flora? ;)
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I guess that depends whether the native flora is made of chocolate or not? Eh Lesley? ;)
:-*
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Been away for a week, and wow I'd say a lot happened in the garden during that time. Here is some of what greeted me when I came back:
Fritillaria collina
F. eduardii
F. sewerzowii
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Beautiful frits Magnar, as is everything in your garden.
There are actually a great many edible plants among our native flora and even a restaurant in Auckland that specializes in dishes made with them. For bush walkers it pays to be conversant with these plants as they are a reliable food source in case of emergencies. However, as Paul suggests, I always take a good supply of chocolate. :)
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Been away for a week, and wow I'd say a lot happened in the garden during that time. Here is some of what greeted me when I came back:
Fritillaria collina
F. eduardii
F. sewerzowii
Magnar, what a welcome home! Your F. collina is really lovely and the F. sewerzowii is fascinating (where do all these names come from? Presumably sewerzowii is someones name ??? )
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Been away for a week, and wow I'd say a lot happened in the garden during that time. Here is some of what greeted me when I came back:
Fritillaria collina
F. eduardii
F. sewerzowii
Magnar, what a welcome home! Your F. collina is really lovely and the F. sewerzowii is fascinating (where do all these names come from? Presumably sewerzowii is someones name ??? )
F. sewerzowii is named after Nicolai Sewerzov (1827 - 1885), a Russian zoologist, cartographer & explorer who participated in several expeditions to central & eastern Asia.
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Magnar,
Love those three. I'll have one of each please. ;) They are all spectacular aren't they, although I would imagine that the colour of the last would put some people off (I find it and it's form fascinating..... hope to grow it one day). Thanks so much for sharing your pics.
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Some more Frits started to flower. Not sure of the identification of unibracteata, but received as such.
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Magnar,
That roylei is pretty special. I love the grey "bloom" on the bloom. ;D
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Tried to post this yeasterday but got an error message.
Anyway: i agree with Lesley that F, camtschatkensis can be a weed. I grow it never the less.
Dark form - which is plentiful, yellow form which is not so prolific and a double that barely survives and last flowered nine years ago.
Göte
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Nice frits, Magnar and Gote!
Some are still blooming here:
1.Fr. messanensis gracilis with 6 flowers a stem this year
2.Fr. alfredae glaucoviridis
3.Fr. cirrosa (end of flowering)
4.Fr.pontica
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Very nice Oleg. Your F. pontica is much darker in colour than any I have seen before. Frits obviously do well in Moscow. Are they all growing in the open garden?
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They are, Gerry. We can't have an alpine house here as winters are too cold. Those which need dry summer are dug up after leaves become yellow for dry storage in sand.
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Very nice Oleg. Your F. pontica is much darker in colour than any I have seen before. Frits obviously do well in Moscow. Are they all growing in the open garden?
Gerry, the F.ponticawe see in the wild here are very variable in clour and some are very dark as the flowers are 'going-over'. I am sure the specimens in western Europe only represent a small sample of the different forms that could be found in the wild.
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Simon - now you mention it I remember that some specimens of F. pontica do darken with age. I didn't see it this year since my plants collapsed from wilt before they had a chance to age.
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Gerry, it would be interesting to know where in the range of F.pontica the original plants we have in cultivation now were collected from, and also if the population there is as variable as it is here in Bulgaria. Given how quickly F.pontica can bulk up, I imagine it wouldn't take long for a few original bulbs to bulk up to an extent where it is possible that most of the garden ones are derived from only a few wild bulbs.
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I agree it would be interesting Simon, but possibly quite difficult to find out. The photo in Rix & Phillips The Bulb Book is of a plant collected on Ulu Dag, Turkey. I recall a plant being distributed in the UK many years ago as the 'Prasil Form'. Since Milan Prasil collected in Eastern Europe this may have been the source of another clone or strain. I suspect there may have been several other introductions.
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Thanks Gerry, I didn't know that. I have F.pontica from 3 sources. The first from a garden centre- so I suppose originally from Holland; the second was bought as F.pontica substipulata, but seems to be straight F.pontica; and the third, bought from Janis, collected in central Bulgaria. Hopefully in a few years we will have more collected as seed on our travels.
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Last frittilarias this year
1.Fritillaria camchtcensis flavescens
2.Fritillaria camchatcensis multiflora
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The yellow form is very nice indeed. :)
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Oleg,
That flavescens form is beautiful. Is the multiflora a double flowered variety?
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Yes, it is, Paul. Flowers are double. Unfortunately out of the 3 forms of Fr.camchatcensis I grow this one shows the greatest reluctance to flower and multiply.
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Yes, it is, Paul. Flowers are double. Unfortunately out of the 3 forms of Fr.camchatcensis I grow this one shows the greatest reluctance to flower and multiply.
Exactly my experience. The normal one is a near weed, the yellow multiplies but modestly and the double one barely survives. There are red forms in Japan. has anybody seen them??
Göte
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Searching the Japanese name (クロユリ) in Google Images (http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2008-22,GGLG:en&q=%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AD%E3%83%A6%E3%83%AA) shows a lot of nice forms in orange, yellow, black and reddish brown, but nothing redder than this (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geocities.jp/chabansan/list/ya/kuroyuri.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geocities.jp/chabansan/list/ya/yuri.html&usg=__UyBDh2rFHZs95bG1gJ_8752fgF4=&h=225&w=150&sz=24&hl=en&start=52&tbnid=6bPqcsRg0pQUNM:&tbnh=108&tbnw=72&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsite:www.geocities.jp%2B%25E3%2582%25AF%25E3%2583%25AD%25E3%2583%25A6%25E3%2583%25AA%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2008-22,GGLG:en%26sa%3DN%26start%3D40).
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Gote,
A weed? I wish! I must see if there are any tiny offsets on mine. Still one bulb after many years. Love the flower, and love the others I have seen here as well. Thanks for showing me new colours of camschatcensis, that I didn't even realise existed. :)
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Searching the Japanese name (クロユリ) in Google Images (http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2008-22,GGLG:en&q=%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AD%E3%83%A6%E3%83%AA) shows a lot of nice forms in orange, yellow, black and reddish brown, but nothing redder than this (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geocities.jp/chabansan/list/ya/kuroyuri.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geocities.jp/chabansan/list/ya/yuri.html&usg=__UyBDh2rFHZs95bG1gJ_8752fgF4=&h=225&w=150&sz=24&hl=en&start=52&tbnid=6bPqcsRg0pQUNM:&tbnh=108&tbnw=72&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsite:www.geocities.jp%2B%25E3%2582%25AF%25E3%2583%25AD%25E3%2583%25A6%25E3%2583%25AA%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2008-22,GGLG:en%26sa%3DN%26start%3D40).
Red is a wide colour Arisaema,
I assume you know that a brown cow is called red in Sweden? ;D
I believe the one in one of my Japanese floras is a little redder than that one.
My point is, however that there are many nice forms out there which nobody (except in Japan ) seems to grow.
Since this is a fairly easy species to grow they would be very desirable.
Cheers
Göte
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Which means we need to get seed out to those of us outside of Japan that wants to grow them, doesn't it! ;D No, I am not meaning just me..... but getting it to a good grower somewhere that can bring bulbs to maturity and share seed around, while also having offsets for those that can import them easily. Just so important to get these things out to the wider audience so that they aren't lost forever by some catastrophe or other.
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ABSOLUTELY YES
Göte
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I assume you know that a brown cow is called red in Sweden? ;D
They are here as well, Göte ;D (The Chinese and their "blue" peopnies also comes to mind...)
Checked Shikoku, they only list the regular black form and a yellow one, both presumably costing a small fortune... Are there any other export nurseries in Japan, other than those only offering Hepaticas? Any seed collectors?
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That red is certainly redder than any I've seen here. Mostly ours are a deeper black/red or the black/green form which apparently is an Alaskan form. Mine are all this one and it multiplies like crazy. Paul you would know if yours had offst babies by the many fine leaflets which appear around the main bulb. These come though the ground/pot surface before the flowering stem.
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Lesley,
But isn't it one that can produce the rice grain offsets, that sit and never do anything until removed from the main bulb? I guess my memory is wrong on that.
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This is a very interesting thread ... anybody who knows my garden knows that I grow remarkably few bulbs, but a single bulb has flowered recently and it was in an old, 'stray' pot labelled Frit' cam' 'Dark Form' that was sown many moons ago. I am not really a bulb 'officianado' so I took five or six shots and thought nothing more of it. These are three of those images and I would say that the colour is very accurate. Are they actually Fritillaria camchatcensis and is this a quite unusual hue?
I must add that I am probably not the best person to be responsible for a quite rare bulb if that is what it is! :D
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It certainly LOOKS like Frit cams... so if it also walks like and quacks like, it probably IS Frit cams..... and no, that is far from the usual colour, quite extraordinary in fact and I hope you are prepared to lay your life on the line for it. ;D
Paul, you are right to some extent. I guess some of the American species do both. I always gets heaps of babies as growing leaflets which never grow on, on casms..., affinis and pudica but there are always plenty on and over the bulbs when I lift them too. Any disturbed AS you lift them will come up as leaflets. Recurva too, though that does seem to grow on to flowering bulbs more readily.
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Hi Lesley,
I have sent Sue and little Ollie out to shield it as we speak! :D
The other two images captured on the day are as follows ...
How best to proceed bulb experts?
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Cliff,
I think you should start spreading it around. 8) Definitely very red. Now if it just sets seed and you can send some to Lesley.... I'm sure she can grow it well enough to share with the rest of the world. ;D
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I did not ask Paul to say this! :-X
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In truth, Lesley and I haven't been in contact at all recently except here in the forums...... so she most definitely did NOT ask me to say that. ;D
Yet this one Simon, is very weedy in NZ making millions of babies which get EVERYWHERE! I still like it very much but am always pulling out single leaves where they shouldn't be.
This posting was my reasoning for asking for Lesley to get the seed. If for her the camschatcensis is basically a weed, then I think she would be a prime candidate to grow the red form in numbers to distribute it to others around the world. ;) And the yellow form, and any others. If she manages to get seed from them so that we in Aus can bring some in too, that would be great, but the important thing is that the more people have the unusual forms the less chance there is of their being lost.... as I mentioned before in relation to the chinese growers.
Just by way of explaining why I made the request. 8)
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That is a red one, great shots and an amazing colour! I have to agree with Paul, you should consider giving a few seeds or rice grains away to a nursery perhaps, as I'd love to see it available commercially.
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I am in total agreement with you all that this colour form should be introduced as quickly as possible and I would love to see it in the collections of every enthusiast, but how to proceed over the next few months? I will keep checking for seed (will a single flower produce viable seed - it has been kept away from other frit's, not by intentional isolation, but simply because I grow so few pots of bulbs) and, of course, Lesley will be among the first to receive any seed, but I am initially very keen to ensure the survival and propagation of this single bulb and would welcome advice from all you experts out there.
I must also check back through my records to establish my source.
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Cliff - may I suggest you give some of the offsets (& seed, if any) to Ian Young & to Bob & Rannveig Wallis? That way it has a good chance of surviving & being distributed.
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How beautiful your red Frit is Cliff - sending good vibes for its success in its propagation :)
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Cliff, I don't think you can do much for a while yet except that if it's still in flower, hand pollinate it a couple of times before it fades. Same clone but better than not trying. When it dies down and is quite dormant, say July/August (F. camschatcensis is not, in my experience, one of the very early rooting species, like say, F. pallidiflora) lift it and assuming there are a number of little hangers on, wipe some (not more than half) off and send these to Ian and the Wallises or whoever, in the UK/Europe. Not more than half because the big bulbs are often reluctant to re-establish if too many of their babies are removed. I sometimes used to take the lot and never saw the parents again.
Just for the record, my "weedy" ones never set seed! Just hundreds of leaflet babies.
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Many thanks, Lesley. Unfortunately the flower faded over ten days ago and, as I had no idea of the potential of this colour form, I didn't give it any special treatment. Because the past few days have been very warm and sunny the stem, though watered, is wilting already and the plant itself is rather small and now looks a little unloved. I will take your welcome advice and will investigate below the compost later in the year. Your name is already on the seed and or rice grain list.
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OK, we have some seed of a very robust, deep red clone of Fr. imperialis. How does one germinate them? Do they require stratification? (cold, warm-cold, etc.) Do they respond to gibberelins? How long is the germination?
I have germinated other Frits in pots over Winter with success, but these seeds really interest me as the clone grows particularly well in my conditions.
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I have F.imperialis growing from seed sown in autumn in the usual way no fuss- fresh seed comes up like cress the following spring, but it will be a slow process to flowering size. I have F.raddeana seedlings 5 years old, which are only now making good sized but none flowering stems. My 3year old F.imperialis are still single bladed.
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Thanks, Simon, for the encouraging words! ;D ;D ;D ??? :'( Should really have known.
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It's worth doing though, because, as I am sure you know, you never know what might turn up ;)
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Fritillaria ruthenica, first flower on this bulb.
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At the risk of being a pain - an even worse one than usual - would you please post of picture of the flower Doug, with the complete bits of foliage around and above the flower. I ask because almost everything we have had in NZ as ruthenica is, in fact, montana/orientalis or similar. The way to tell true ruthenica is that the top leaves around the bloom have curly tips, by which they can cling to and climb on, anything around them. I, finally, have the real thing in flower today, a seedling from Vlastimil Pilous seed, 4 years ago. Will try for a picture in the morning.
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Well why wait for morning. Here's mine. The flower is lighter than the image suggests but the curly tips are visible.
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They're curly, but not as much as yours! What do you think?
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Some F. ruthenica have curlier tips than others, and the number of tip leaves can vary too.....getting the feeling that little is ever certain in this life????
Doug's is looking more like a montana for my money.
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Some F. ruthenica have curlier tips than others, and the number of tip leaves can vary too.....getting the feeling that little is ever certain in this life????
Doug's is looking more like a montana for my money.
I agree that Doug's looks more like montana. Lesley's looks as though it might be the real thing - very like the plant I had (& lost) some 20 years ago. The tendril-like leaves are similar to those of 'F. verticillata' (of gardens). I remember a very good painting of the real thing in an issue of 'The Plantsman' some years ago; the article was, I think, by Martyn Rix.
When I was editing the Frit Journal I spent a good deal of time trying to find a photo of genuine F. ruthenica without success; all turned to to be montana, 'nigra', 'tenella' or 'orientalis' (so-called). I think the genuine plant is actually quite rare in cultivation.
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For Frit folk, I noticed that the current issue of The Plantsman (Vol 8, part 3, Sept '09) has 2 articles that you might be interested in.
One on Iranian Frits by the Wallis's, and one on Frit culture in Seramis by Paul Cumbleton ;)
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Mmm, Doug's looks quite like mine that everyone tells me ISN'T ruthenica.
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Mmm, Doug's looks quite like mine that everyone tells me ISN'T ruthenica.
You mean this one,from the previous page, Lesley?
No we're saying that it IS ruthenica... :)
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Sorry Maggi, I seem to be doing everything possible to confuse people. The one on the previous page IS ruthenica, as you say, and it was raised from seed from Vlastimil Pilous. Doug's looks like the OTHER "ruthenica" I have from a couple of different local sources, which I now realize is montana or tenella or etc. I'd take a picture but it's usually one of the very earliest to flower for me and is already finished.
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Oh, Lesley, don't fret, I think I'm the one who gets confused.... sometimes all the threads just run together in my head :P I've been scoffing plums this evening and I think my choc level has fallen too low. ;)
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Two out fully today are:
a nice seedling from FGAGS (03) of Fritillaria aurea. It may well be a hybrid. The flower is a lot paler yellow than aurea, lemon really, and there is just the very faintest suggestion of chequering. As well, the petals curve outwards at the tips instead of inward. It's very pretty.
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and this seedling from F. tubiformis var. moggridgei, two flowering stems side by side on the same bulb. Another is coming separately. While not as yellow as I think it should be, it is not sufficiently red to be straight tubiformis.
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Lesley - I've seen F. tubiformis of this colour before & there is plenty of scope for discussion as to what they are. Although Kew still recognises the name F. tubiformis subsp. moggridgei I think it just as likely that all these forms are just colour variants of one species, F. tubiformis. Whatever their true identity, they are very handsome &, in your care, they seem to be thriving. Congratulations!
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Thanks Gerry. It was seed as the variety, though a good long time ago and I don't remember where from, probably AGS. I always wanted it because I'd seen a brilliant golden yellow version in a friend's garden, huge, blooms, at that time totally new and awesome to me. But I like these very much.
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Started checking of pictures made in summer and putting names on them. On this slide you can see Fritillaria ussuriensis but I would like to name it FALLING IN LOVE
Janis
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What can one say to that? Looks like the tangled web we weave, to me. :)
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Definitely all embracing - maybe plants do have an affinity to one another and it isn't just mutually beneficial ::)
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Janis,
a striking foto! Will this species be available on this years list? I love a plant that embraces pot culture. How are they in the open garden?
Lesley,
although my first thought upon seeing the foto was a tangled web, I quickly drifted to 'tapestry', as I work with fabric and the motif reminded me of Belgian and French botanical weaves. The foto would translate wonderfully to graphic design.
Jamie
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Here is an all yellow or rather yellow/green flower on Frit. rhodokanakis, one of a small patch which mostly have some red in them. This one hasn't flowered before though there have been others flower for 3 or 4 years.
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The others in the patch are like this
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Jamie, did you ever see the magnificent tapestries of Dom Robert? They were French I think and of wonderful birds, flowers and I remember one at an exhibition here in Dunedin many years ago, of little horses with waving manes and flashing feet. I would kill to have one. I have several pictures of them but as slides.
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Here is an all yellow or rather yellow/green flower on Frit. rhodokanakis, one of a small patch which mostly have some red in them. This one hasn't flowered before though there have been others flower for 3 or 4 years.
A really lovely sunny yellow with green in your Frit. rhodokanakis group, Lesley, great to see on a cold grey day here in the Alps, thanks :)
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Janis,
a striking foto! Will this species be available on this years list? I love a plant that embraces pot culture. How are they in the open garden?
Lesley,
although my first thought upon seeing the foto was a tangled web, I quickly drifted to 'tapestry', as I work with fabric and the motif reminded me of Belgian and French botanical weaves. The foto would translate wonderfully to graphic design.
Jamie
The F. ussuriensis is grown mostly outside with me, but stock is very limited.
Janis
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The first fritillarias in flower at our place:
Fritillaria carica
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Fritillaria erhartii (?) grown from Seedex about 6 years ago.
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cheers
fermi
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Love it Fermi!
Carica in portuguese is one of these things. Quite a funny name... :)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IRb2GU6Gz50/RjtPEaiuLyI/AAAAAAAAB6I/dJvvx-4EgzI/s400/caricas.jpg)
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You mean bottle top Michael? ???
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Carica in portuguese is one of these things. Quite a funny name... :)
And Carica is also the genus of papaya ???
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Three more frits out here are in succession, FF. sibthorpiana, davisii and bithynica. I always wonder about this last as bithynica is said to have winged seed pods. My pods are smooth and unwinged. Some of the flowers have pink edges to the petals, making a striped appearance.
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Lesley, your F.'bithynica' seems to have something of F.pinardii about it. Was it seed grown?
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You mean bottle top Michael? ???
Exactly Lesley. I dont see the connection at all, but... who knows?
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F. pinardii? That I HADN'T thought of. I did originally grow it from seed I think - it was a long time ago - and several generations of seedlings have all been either green or green with the pinkish stripe. I've not had seed on my pinardiis to compare the pods. It's great from seed, flowering in less that 2 and a half years. I'd welcome other opinions here, from Gerry, Tony, Ian Y et al.
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F. pinardii? That I HADN'T thought of. I did originally grow it from seed I think - it was a long time ago - and several generations of seedlings have all been either green or green with the pinkish stripe. I've not had seed on my pinardiis to compare the pods. It's great from seed, flowering in less that 2 and a half years. I'd welcome other opinions here, from Gerry, Tony, Ian Y et al.
Lesley - the yellow-green flowers in the left-hand part of the pot look like what I know as F.bithynica. I'm not sure about the others. Possibly F.pinardii - a taxon that can contain just about anything - or a hybrid? As regards the capsule, that of F.pinardii is said to be unwinged. In Flora of Turkey Rix states that while F. bithynica usually has a winged capsule, populations with unwinged capsules are scattered throughout the southern part of the distribution of the species.
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Here is F. purdyi from Archibald seed. I like it very much ut one I had years ago from Wayne Roderick seed, had crimson pollen and heavier spotting which made the flower much more exciting. Still, I'm not complaining. :)
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Lesley,
Some awesome Frits you're posting at present. The last 4 species you've posted I grow (although my bithynica is somewhat different to that one of yours), but the ones before that (aurea, tubiformis, rhodokanakis etc) I've never grown here. I just love the aurea and tubiformis forms.... Very, very nice. I must mention that I have happy little seedlings coming along from michaelovskyi and a couple of other seed lots that you sent me last year.... so you've got children (or should that be grandchildren?) here as well at the moment!!
Very few Frits going to flower for me this year unfortunately. Has been a tough few years with early warmth that forced them into dormancy more rapidly than they should be.... so no flowers.
Janis,
Great photo of Love's Embrace! ;D They do look so romantic, don't they. I guess you could also just call it "Romantic Mood"! ;)
Thanks to all who are posting pics of Frits at the moment. Nice to be able to enjoy them when so few are flowering for me here this year. I can at least remember what they have looked like in the past (and hopefully again in the future) this way. 8)
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I do not own one fritillaria, that will change in the coming years.
These are beautiful plants, now I see why my mother had them years ago before her move to Australia.
I will keep a look out for them.
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Paul,
Last year these two didn't do much at all but have produced a couple of blooms each this season,
Fritillaria messanensis
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F.lusitanica on a 2 ft tall stem
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A smaller bulb of F. lusitanica also had a flower open a few days before the taller stem,
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cheers
fermi
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I've been watering the frit pots today with a systemic fungicide as there are the first signs of botrytis, most likely a consequence of very damp days over the last month or so but I also believe it is more prevelant in soil-less composts as I don't have the problem with the species planted in the garden rather than potted. I plan to plant out as many as possible this summer in my new bit of garden which is gradually taking shape (but the damned wheelbarrow gave out on me today).
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FF. sibthorpiana, davisii and bithynica
Lesley, this group of Frits in your garden are so attractive, I love the shape of the flower bell and the colours. Does F purdyi grow in full sun or part shade to enhance the spotting?
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Mine grows in pretty much full sun at present but it has had masses of rain over the last month. According to Pratt and Jefferson-Brown it grows in stony clay screes and pine woodland in California and should be allowed to dry out completely in the summer. Mine will anyway as the bulb pots only get rain, no watering and we have little rain for about 3 months (usually).
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Lesley, are you on clay? Thanks for the background to F purdyi, it really is pretty.
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No Robin, just regular soil mostly but the potted frits and other bulbs are in a soil-less compost. I think a small proportion of soil should be added as it helps avoid botrytis I think.
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I think a small proportion of soil should be added as it helps avoid botrytis I think
That's a good tip, I noticed a touch on one or two tulip bulbs in a pot - should I throw them or can I save the others which appear clean?
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My experience is that even if botrytis appears on the foliage of frits, if I spray with a systemic fungicide (usually I dowse them, applied from a watering can) the bulbs are unharmed and duly appear next year. The trick is to spray well BEFORE it appears and so avoid it altogether. Your tulips should be OK if sprayed ASAP Robin.
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Have done, Lesley, thanks :)
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Howdy All,
In full flower for me at the moment.... Fritillaria camschatcensis. Photographed in the sun to show the detail, although it appears much darker to the eye. I notice that it appears there have been eggs laid on the flower..... I've only just noticed them when preparing the pic which I took a couple of days ago. ::)
Enjoy.
Please click on the pic for a larger version.
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Such a rich dark looking Fritillaria camschatcensis, Paul, handsome I would say with lovely detail i the sun. Who was it who found it too hard to resist setting up home do you think? ::) ;)
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No idea Robin. I have a vague memory of this frit supposed to be having a rotten smell, so maybe it was some sort of fly attracted to the scent? I really don't know. The flower looks much darker than it does in the pic.... the sunshine brings out a lot of the colour inside.
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You'd better keep a sharp eye Paul, to see what hatches. It shouldn't take too long as the flower has a reasonably short shelf life. :)
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Lesley,
robably been and gone well and truly insect-wise by now. Is Frit camschatcensis supposed to have a foetid smell? I seem to recall something about that. I'm figuring probably a fly if that is the case, so there won't be much point for the maggots in that flower. ;D