Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: Robert G on January 20, 2009, 05:44:34 PM
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Under my lights I have a large ammount of newly germinarted Glaucidium. I was wondering if anyone out there has tried to force Glaucidium so it gets to flowering size sooner. I have been doing this with arisaema and that is well documented. Arisaema get three months cold then are alllowed to grow outside or in greenhouse and back to cold. Repeat and repeat. I suppose I am just impatient, but it would be great if someone out there had any ideas.
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You'd better ask Martin Baxendale. He's faster than a speeding.....snowdrop!
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Thank you for the tip Lesley, but is this the Martin B I have seen in galanthus areas? I am new at this is it okay to send a personal message to him through the forum or should I let him get in touch with me.
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Hi, Robert, it is okay for you to PM any forumist... but I have feelingthat Lesley was teasing you about Martin, because the "faster than" is a forum nickname given him..... I 'm not particularly aware of Martin being much involved in growing Glaucidium! Try a search for Glaucidium and see what that throws out.... I'll do so myself... after lunch... I'm ravenous and no breakfast.... so see you later..... :D
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Thank you Maggi. I suspected Lesely was having some fun me. She did give me a direction to check into. I will start looking at general forcing to get some info. Part of me had hoped someone had specific experience with the plant. Now I did a search a while ago, but you are right something could pop up now. Take care.
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Something I have noticed with glaucidium seedlings is that they seem to reach a certain size and then "stop" for a while, then all of a sudden they put on a spurt of growth and are almost magically bigger and almost ready to flower.
I would suspect that the fact you have them under lights and so can presumably keep them warm and growing for longer will mean that thet will come sooner to a bigger and hopefully, flowering, size.
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Yes Robert, I was teasing a little. I apologise. All Forum members know that I'll have a little laugh at their expense but it is always with the greatest affection. And I don't mind receiving the same back to me. :)
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Ian,
I think that is solid advice. Keep them growing I should be rewarded. I have noticed with Dodecatheon the ones I start early and pampered inside will flower the following year. Where a given a more natural treatment will take a few years. Thank you.
Lesley,
I will be keeping my eye you for here on in. :) :) I read about you iris problems. I thought getting plants from the USA was a hassle and costly, but eek.
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Hi Robert, I thought that I should put in my two pece worth here. We grow a lot of Glaucidium ( and other genus) from seed these are being sown at the momemt in deep pots these are not distubed the first year but next year once growth starts again we tip out the potfull of seedling without disturbing them and plant the whole lot in the ground. We have several raised beds with good compost which we use for this and in year thre we can separate the young seedlings in spring planting back in the ground some will produce flowers if fed that year. I suppose you could sow the seed directly in the ground but we like to know where it is, we do have problems with voles eating juicy seeds. I attach picture of seed pots.
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Ian, what is the fabric covering the pots, and what is its purpose?
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Hi again, sorry forgot to say that the pots are covered with what we know as fleece a very fine woven material which allows sunlight and rain through it protects plants from frost . We cover the pots over and tie the fleece with string under the rim of the pot ( make sure you use quite a big bit of fleece) since we have used this method we do not get problems with the voles eating our seed they do not eat through the fleece also when the seedlings emerge and start to grow we pull up the fleece to allow more room for seedlings to grow this keeps out slugs and any other nasties which would eat our seedling. The fleece is removed after a month or so. cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Thanks Ian, I think I have some of the fleece, I bought at one time to wrap roses.
It wouldn't have occurred to me to try it over pots, but if it keeps slugs out it's a great idea ;D ;D ;D
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Rob- I do not have a working camera right now, but if I can take a picture I will.
Ian- Thank you for the input. That sounds like a great way to go. I suspect you being blessed with a longer growing season get larger plants sooner. It makes sense so if I do that artificially it will help too. I saw you speak when you came through here in the autumn. Great talk and I have already picked up fleece(sold as row cover here). Voles aren't the problem, but the european black squirrel is.
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Dear Rob, just incase your seedlings are not Glaucidiums please p.m me with your postal address and I will send some seed, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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If I remember from a few years ago, Glaucidiums come up as a single leaf, and shaped very much like the mature leaf, but much smaller of course.
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Rob- Lesely is right. That has been my experience too. Small leaf, but like the adult ones. For me they always stop there for the season like that and go dormant. I am starting them early so maybe I will get lucky. It is funny though I saw a couple references to them making two leaves the first year. I hope that helps. I say either plant would be welcome though.
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I have a box full of them. They came up with two cotyledons. Of course there is nohing to see now.
From my memory I would say that they opened flat, were 17mm long 8mm wide (the single cot) slightly pointed at the end and wider below the middle.
Maybe they were even a little larger. Nothing else year one. The Cotyledon only habit is i believe an adaption to deciduos forest as ecological niche.
Göte
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I have the same experience as Göte. One pair of leaves the first year and nothing more . The second year the plants came up withe several - bigger - leaves. Remains to see if they flower in year three.
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I have a question. Did any of you use GA-3 to aid germination. I did and I was wondering if that could affect emergance of the plant in that way. Lesely did you use GA-3? If you did and we had similiar results, could that be the explanation? I have germinated Glaucidium before, but always with GA-3, always with the same results.
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I did not I
Göte
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I didn't either. I've not used it for anything and am not sure that it is available in New zealand and if not, we may not be able to import it (Hazardous substances and New Organisms Act). However, I've not explored this possibility.
From the above posts it occurs to me that perhaps there are two different KINDS of G. palmatum. By this I mean that maybe there is a very stong, vigorous strain and maybe a much slower, weaker strain because I have never seen a new seedling with two cotyledons and the one or two I've raised to flowering size took about 7 or 8 years to flower yet Gote and Lars get seedlings with two cotyledons which come more and bigger in the second year. My seedlings have remained with a single leaf, though a bit bigger, for as much as 5 years.
I've only had seed through the exchanges, usually 3 or 4 seeds at a time, and usually just one or two seeds germinate, and not until the second year. Freshness therefore, seems to be an important factor.
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The thought has occurred to me too Lesley.
However I have a more elaborate hypothesis.
Those of you who have one leaf coming first describe a real leaf not a cotyledon.
It seems that GP sometimes - like Lilum martagon (and others) always - has hypogeal germination.
In Lilium martagon, the cotyledon does not grow above the soil. Instead in the first growing season it forms a kind of umbilical cord from the seed to a microbulb that sends up a true leaf next year.
From what you write, I get the impression that for some reason, the cotyledons do not get above soil level and the plant withdraws the energy stored in them to form a growing point that next year gets a true leaf up.
This would - for a GP - be a less efficient way and an emergency procedure. Thus the small number of surviving seeds.
Why this happens is beyond me. It could have something to do with the temperatures/seasonal variations or possibly depth of sowing.
It is usually the temperatures that guide the germination in the two-stage germinators. The following is pure speculation but i could imagine a scenario:
In the deciduous forest there is a growing window that starts when the frost is gone and ends when the tree leaves are fully developed.
Many woodlanders have mechanisms that ensure that they germinate at the start of this window and prevents them from wasting resources by trying to grow/germinate too late when the trees takes most of the light and moisture. If your climate Lesley gives the seed a too high temperature when germination has started the seed may switch to hypogeal germination because the high temperature has tricked into "believing" that it is too late to send up the cotyledons.
The two of us who have reported good dicot-germinations are both from a relatively cool area.
I would appreciate other peoples ideas on this. I hope I have managed to express myself clearly.
Göte
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Gote,
I think this is probably a good explanation. I have the cotyledon leaves appearing in the first spring as soon as I give them some heat.
I prick out the seedlings later on in the first season. There always seems to be more plants with a good root system than I would have expected. Previously I have thought this was down to the new leaves getting damaged with frost etc. but it could be the case that they never emerged.
I will look more carefully this year, they have yet to start.
They go out into fish boxes in the summer and by the end of the next summer they are ready they are ready to sell with a couple of noses. I feel they establish better when young.
Susan
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Yes, I agree with Susan that it seems to be and probably is, the right answer, so if I get some more seed sometime, I'd probably be best to refrigerate it and sow it pre-winter, (by which time though it will be around 9 or 10 months old I imagine) rather than sowing as soon as I get it, in mid summer (from the seedlists.) Oddly, the one plant I DID have germinate quickly and grow on to flowering in 4 years, was a pure white seedling, though not from the white form - or not listed as such anyway. It was the only plant I have ever had stolen from my garden.
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I am sorry to hear about your garden theft, Lesley. Gote I think you theory makes complete sense. The weather here is not as moderate as the northern side of Europe. Today it is -20C, but it can easily be 30C in April. Spring often seems to be nonexistant. In the past I have put them outdoors in that heat and I confess right now my seedlings are under lights and in a room is warmer than I would want. So it is very likely that is what is happening. I just got a smaller batch of seeds, so I might sow them and place in a cooler area. It would be interesting to see the results.
Robert
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Picking up on an old discussion. Today I have taken a picture of my Glaucidium palmatum seedlings. These were sown fresh last year and have germinated well. As you see all have two cotyledons.
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They look like mine did last spring. I am obviously later than Gunilla because they have just started moving but I think I see true leaves coming up.
Göte
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Ian,
Your fleece idea just struck me as good to keep out unwanted seed from seedpots. This season I have had super crops of Digitalis lutea in many of my seed pots which were placed too close to them. The fleece would have kept out these unwanted seeds.
Paddy
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Your seedlings look wonderfully healthy Gunilla. Keep us in touch with their development please. :)