Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
SRGC Shows and Events => Events => Topic started by: DaveM on January 11, 2009, 08:24:14 PM
-
Edit:
This page formed by splitting from the "2009- What a year of celebrations!" page --to allow for digression ! M
How remiss of me not to mention the following connected anniveraries :-[ :-[ :-[
This year is also the 200th (yes David, this number is also correct 8)) anniversary (on 12th February) of the the birth of Charles Darwin. And, later in the year (November), the 150th anniversary of the publication of his seminal work:
'On the origin of species by means of natural selection'
Perhaps one of the most important scientific theories of Victorian era - and all based on sound scientific principals and observation of the natural world. No doubt there will be plenty of tv and radio coverage of these anniversaries and of the adventures he undertook in gathering the information.
"There is grandeur in this view of life... from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved." Charles Darwin
See the following link for more info:
www.darwin200.org
doubtless there are countless other web sites also......
-
Edit by M....This remark made with reference to a post in another thread about the 200th Anniversary of the Caledonian Horticultural Society .....
So the Caley was founded in the year that Charles Darwin was born. That makes it sound even more impressive.
-
It seems The Royal National Rose Society, founded in 1876, is the oldest specialist plant society in the world ........ fancy that... :D
-
It seems The Royal National Rose Society, founded in 1876, is the oldest specialist plant society in the world ........ fancy that... :D
The Wakefield & North of England Tulip Society was founded in 1836. For a long time it was obligatory to exhibit the cut flowers in old beer bottles though I don't know whether this is still the case.
Edit : apparently it still is
-
Not heard of that one Gerry and living in the area as well.
Website here http://www.tulipsociety.co.uk/ will keep an eye out for updates. In case they need help emptying beer bottles!!!!!!
-
Not heard of that one Gerry and living in the area as well.
I was born & brought up 3 miles from Wakefield but only discovered its existence many years after leaving the area. I guess it recruits by word of mouth.
-
It seems The Royal National Rose Society, founded in 1876, is the oldest specialist plant society in the world ........ fancy that... :D
The Wakefield & North of England Tulip Society was founded in 1836. For a long time it was obligatory to exhibit the cut flowers in old beer bottles though I don't know whether this is still the case.
Edit : apparently it still is
Err, ummmm, do you think we ought to break the news to the Rose Society? ::) :-\
-
Going back to Darwin - he was really a plant scientist; at least that's is what he specialised in. Roy Sexton is giving a talk to the Stirling branch of the Scottish Wildlife Trust on Monday 9th Feb about Darwin and orchids.
-
2009 is the 100th anniversary of the first bird to be ringed in Britain. It was a lapwing and the place was Aberdeen.
-
Going back to Darwin - he was really a plant scientist; at least that's is what he specialised in. Roy Sexton is giving a talk to the Stirling branch of the Scottish Wildlife Trust on Monday 9th Feb about Darwin and orchids.
Hmmm - he misunderstood Goethe's Metamorphosis of the Plants (along with other German ideas on morphology).
However, he did know a lot about barnacles!
-
I think Goethe's work is interesting but just a short essay on homology. It was just the musings of a poet and philosopher (used then to describe a person who studies science, but now used to describe someone who can talk endlessly about a subject about which he knows nothing). I think Darwin mentions him briefly in 'The Origin'. I don't think Goethe meant anything evolutionary in his work. His ideas were just inspired observations on plant development. I think Darwin probably took the subject much further, and while he did write several books on barnacles early on, he wrote 7 books on plants.
Is the Tolson Memorial Museum, Ravensknowle Park still going strong? I just about lived in the place from 1962-3.
-
Yes! to the second paragraph. Didn't profess to understand the first ;D
-
Thanks David. ;D I got my first stick insects from the museum when I was about 7. The standard laboratory one (Carausius morosus), which they fed on ivy.
-
I think Goethe's work is interesting but just a short essay on homology. It was just the musings of a poet and philosopher (used then to describe a person who studies science, but now used to describe someone who can talk endlessly about a subject about which he knows nothing). I think Darwin mentions him briefly in 'The Origin'. I don't think Goethe meant anything evolutionary in his work. His ideas were just inspired observations on plant development. I think Darwin probably took the subject much further, and while he did write several books on barnacles early on, he wrote 7 books on plants.
Sorry Anthony, as the jamboree gets under way & the Darwin industry swings into action I couldn't resist having a little poke at the man himself. Although I don't think this forum is the place for an extended discussion on the topic, which is probably of little interest to most forumists, I think a brief response is in order. Yes, Goethe's essay is a short piece on serial homology (morphological correspondence) with no evolutionary content whatsoever. Darwin misunderstood the concept by interpreting it in terms of descent. However, the evolutionary concept of homology adds nothing significant to the pre-evolutionary concept of morphological correspondence. There are some contemporary developmental biologists who are attempting to recover the original concept in terms of a theory of transformations. You might find it interesting (or irritating) to look at How The Leopard Changed Its Spots by Brian Goodwin (1994) though it is not free from philosophical errors. Not all critics of Darwinism are Creationists or proponents of Intelligent Design.
-
Scientific theories progress when more knowledge is applied. Gaps in knowledge and understanding are filled in, but just because gaps exist doesn't mean the filling is missing or the connection wrong?
Interesting that you should mention the 'Leopard' book? I know of it, but am not sure if it answers the question? Perhaps I should read it? Know anyone who might have a spare copy? ;)
-
Gerry/Anthony, please keep talking. Forumists have many & varied interests and are always keen to pick up more knowledge. Just don't tell me that Darwin had problems with his digital camera & laptop :'(
-
I do remember a story about one of Darwin's sons handing him an animal he'd cunningly made up of various bits of others beasties, asking him to identify it. "Does it hum?" the old man asked. "Yes!" came the reply. "Then it's a humbug!" ;D
-
Gerry/Anthony, please keep talking. Forumists have many & varied interests and are always keen to pick up more knowledge. Just don't tell me that Darwin had problems with his digital camera & laptop :'(
OK David. Give me a bit of time & I'll produce a short, illustrated account of Goethe's ideas on the morphology of plants which might interest a few forumists. If Darwin was around today he'd almost certainly use a PC rather than a Mac.
-
Gerry/Anthony, please keep talking. Forumists have many & varied interests and are always keen to pick up more knowledge. Just don't tell me that Darwin had problems with his digital camera & laptop :'(
OK David. Give me a bit of time & I'll produce a short, illustrated account of Goethe's ideas on the morphology of plants which might interest a few forumists.
Goethe’s essay Metamorphosis of Plants was published in 1790. Although the essay is by no means easy to understand in detail the broad outlines are clear enough. He argues that all the organs along the axis of the plant - style, anthers, petals, sepals, bracts, leaves - are, in some sense, the the same. He seems to suggest that they are all modified leaves. His evidence for this ‘sameness’ is the fact that leaves can be transformed into petals, as in the Tulips illustrated below, or the sexual parts of flowers can be partially or entirely transformed into petals, as in the Primulas illustrated. This will be familiar to many people in double or semi-double flowers. These paintings were prepared for Goethe’s essay.
As far as I am aware this was the first account of what is now known as serial homology, the idea that there is some form of morphological correspondence between different organs of the same individual.
There is a different form of homology which is exhibited between the ‘same’ organs in different individuals, a view again developed in the 18th century. The classic example is the limbs of different vertebrates. So, the forelimbs of birds, bats, horses & humans are said to be homologous - constructed on a common plan - even though they look very different.
In The Origin of Species, Darwin addresses the question of the second type of homology & claims that it can be explained if it is assumed that all the individuals showing homologous organs are descended from a common ancestor. This is the mainstream - evolutionary - concept of homology (see, e.g., Wikipedia). However, it can be argued that although evolutionary theory explains the distribution of homologies it does not account for their existence. Darwin also claims that Goethe’s serial homologies can be explained by descent but his account is, not surprisingly, obscure.
It is only in recent times that the limitations of evolution theory as a scientific theory have been recognised. In recent years some biologists have begun an attempt to recover the 18th century approach to morphology & to reconsider homology in the context of a general critique of the explanatory power of evolution theory. Rather than turning to historical explanations of homology in terms of descent they are attempting to develop scientific explanations in term of how the organs in question develop during the life of the individual. Although this work is at a very early stage, in broad outline the claim is that the development of homologous organs involves modifications of the same basic developmental process. The aim is a general theory of development which will either replace the theory of evolution as the central theory in biology or stand beside it. This view has been elaborated in a radical fashion to suggest the existence of a hierarchy of homologies & proposes homologies where none have previously been supposed to exist.
For anyone who wishes to pursue these ideas, I recommend the book which I suggested to Anthony - How The Leopard Lost Its Spots by Brian Goodwin. Although this is intended as a ‘popular’ book I should point out that it does presuppose a fair amount of knowledge of biology.
-
Very well put Gerry. I will definitely be taking this further.
-
I do remember a story about one of Darwin's sons handing him an animal he'd cunningly made up of various bits of others beasties, asking him to identify it. "Does it hum?" the old man asked. "Yes!" came the reply. "Then it's a humbug!" ;D
OMG, Anthony,
my dad used to tell this story about 30 years ago! but he didn't say it was Darwin, just " a scientist"!
cheers
fermi
-
Amazing what you remeber when being rocked to sleep in your pram Fermi? ;D