Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => General Forum => Topic started by: arillady on January 13, 2009, 01:20:38 AM
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In heritage rose research there is hardly any information on the Dutch breeders and nurseries of the 1800s early 1900s.
This could also apply to bulbs and other plants offered back then.
Does anyone know the reason apart from the losses from the wars?
There are relatively many old nursery catalogues and references of French, German, UK and USA breeders but why so little of Dutch?
Any ideas?
Pat T
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All I can say is that archive losses during WWII were only minor in our country, if there were losses at all... In contrast, the Berlin Herbarium suffered great losses.
Many years ago, I was not able to find any plant catalogues, except for the Tubbergen one.
Still, I believe that the Dutch were mainly interested in large-scale plant-trading (and making money ;D...). The dutch buy cheap only and that could be provided best by uniform gardencenters. While plant-enthousiasts lived their lives in obscurity and small clubs that were hard to find. Despite internet, my impression is that the amount of knowledgeable people is still very small here, unfortunately. Especially compared to the UK. Those Dutch who are, mostly hang around on forums like this...
Just my thoughts...
Hans
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Hi Hans,
thank you for your thoughts. It intrigues me that no one seems to be able to find any catalogues - they must be held somewhere!
What about the archives of institutions that brought back plants from China etc - they must be somewhere.
Pat T
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Dear Pat,
I would try the RHS Lindley Library
They can be contacted via the RHS website http://www.rhs.org.uk/ follow through the links Learning > Libraries
They have staff who can find anything (anywhere in the world).
They have found (or pointed me to someone who can find) the most obscure items (including collectors lists, seed and nursery catalogues).
Giles
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Very sound advice from Giles, there, Pat.
The library and herbarium of the Royal Botanic Gardens Edinburgh is a tremendous source of information from the old plant hunters, which is hardly surprising when one thinks of the large number of famous British plant hunters that these British institutions should have a grand archive.
I am not sure what the depth of collection of old commercial archive material the RBGE might have though. :-\
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Thank you both. I did get photocopies of some great old English plant catalogues from Glasnevin Bot Gdn - rose sections - some were full catalogues but others were just the new rose introductions for certain years. (1800's). The librarian who did it for me did not charge me either for the two packages to Australia. I'm hoping that one day I will win Lotto so I can donate the cost plus some to the Glasnevin Bot Garden. A scanned page of an old catalogue in our local rare publications library costs $5Aust a page!!!! I have also had some cat(alogue)s from RHS one year.
I will keep trying through RHS website and Royal Botanic Gardens Edinburgh when I have a chance
Pat T
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Somewhere there must be an archive of old Dutch bulb catalogues, especially those of the internationally renowned van Tubergen. In the KAVB perhaps? I've raised this matter before in relation to the origin of the trade form of Crocus medius but with no results.
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It may be a long shot Pat, but it might be worth trying the John Innes Institute Library - I'll send you their email address. They have a marvellous historical collection running through the first herbals, Redoute's roses (is that right) etc etc and the Library itself has the full run of Gardeners Chronicle, The RHS magazine etc. Coincidentally Maggi it is their centenary year too.
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Coincidentally Maggi it is their centenary year too.
So it is! My goodness, it seems everyone is going to have a birthday next year ;D
http://www.jic.ac.uk/centenary/
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Here I show some pictures of old Dutch catalogue covers.
I've seen many others but they are very likewise over the years.
The one of Messrs. van Tubergen of 1899 is a wholesale catalogue.
E.H. Krelage' wholesale catalogues are a bit different but both
have mostly no inside pictures.
Krelage did have some very old Rose catalogues, but they are only
on microfiche in the library, which need a special machine to
look at.
Krelage cat. cover 1901 back 88 KB 625x800x24b jpeg
Krelage cat. cover 1901 Front 133 KB 614x800x24b jpeg
Krelage cat. cover 1916 195 KB 616x800x24b jpeg
Tubergen cat. cover 1899 81 KB 386x800x24b jpeg
Tubergen cat. cover 1914 160 KB 581x800x24b jpeg
Tubergen cat. cover 1937 224 KB 693x800x24b jpeg
Tubergen cat. cover 1940 225 KB 648x800x24b jpeg
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What lovely things they are. Real treasures and some over 100 years old now. A real achievment of van Tubergen to put out a catalogue in 1940 with war already gripping Europe tightly.
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In heritage rose research there is hardly any information on the Dutch breeders and nurseries of the 1800s early 1900s.
This could also apply to bulbs and other plants offered back then.
Does anyone know the reason apart from the losses from the wars?
There are relatively many old nursery catalogues and references of French, German, UK and USA breeders but why so little of Dutch?
Any ideas?
Pat T
Pat here is probably what you are looking for.
These are lists of roses from a catalogue about 1800.
Cat. Corn. et Jan de Graaff a titel ca. 1800
Cat. Corn. et Jan de Graaff Rosa pp. 2
Cat. Corn. et Jan de Graaff Rosa pp. 3
Cat. Corn. et Jan de Graaff Rosa pp. 4
If it's of interest I can show more pages with bulbs etc. from this time.
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Wow, Luit, you have been busy searching for these!
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Maggi, let's say it is a matter of digging deep. No problem for an 'old' gardener. ;D ;D ;D
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Luit has been sending me personally these scans from old catalogues as he has been finding them. I am glad that he has posted them on this forum for all to have access to. What possibly could I say to express my appreciation except a very hearty THANK YOU. Looks like you might be getting addicted to seeking out old references Luit - it can be addictive. Well it does have a lot to do with plants after all.
These scans are invaluble to the ASI and also to Brent C Dickerson in his old rose research - the de Graaff catalogue especially. What year is it Luit?
:D :D :D
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I should read more carefully before replying :-\
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Maggi, let's say it is a matter of digging deep. No problem for an 'old' gardener. ;D ;D ;D
Dangerous to do too much digging too early in the year, though, Luit.... think of your back!! ;)
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What year is it Luit?
:D :D :D
I'm pretty sure it's 2009 Pat, though I'm getting to be an old gardener too, so maybe there's doubt. ;D
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Lesley I do know that I have my days but I was referring to the year of the catalogue which I took in, on second reading, was ca. 1800. ;)
Hard to believe it is already so far into 2009.
Luit,
Brent wrote:
"Many and warmest thanks! It’s just as I theorized: The Dutch rose-listings list most of the varieties by Latinate names. Rosedom is now, as I write in the preface to my second edition of the Master List, indeed presented with “a great nomenclatural challenge” . . ."
I take it that Brent was very grateful for your efforts and the rose listing has been most useful.
Thank again Luit.
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Lesley I do know that I have my days but I was referring to the year of the catalogue which I took in, on second reading, was ca. 1800. ;)
I know Pat, I was doing a Cliff Booker. ;D
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I thought as much Lesley but you can never be quite sure when it is written. :)
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Thank you Pat (and Brent) for the nice words.
Actually if you would not have asked this I would never been
looking for these old catalogues.
Now I am very grateful too, because searching in such a library as
the one of KAVB is sooooooo much interesting.
I found so many old beautiful coloured plates of plants and bulbs in
other books and journals of the 19th century.
I feel very privileged that I can take all these books in hand and read.
Today I show some more pages out of this catalogue of Messrs. de Graaff.
I was astonished to find out that ca. 1800 they already offered more
than 600 Hyacinthus .
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It's good to see that this kind of information is archived for research in the future.
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Sooooooo interesting is sooooo right, Luit. Just astonishing to see these old records...... and who would EVER have guessed that they had so many cultivars in the 1800s? Astonishing numbers. :o What a treat to learn these things. Thank you :-*
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Luit - it's good to know that these old catalogues are preserved. I suspect I would not be the only person who would be interested in any available information on the introduction of the trade form of Crocus medius (by van Tubergen?) if you had the time & the inclination to investigate.
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Luit - it's good to know that these old catalogues are preserved. I suspect I would not be the only person who would be interested in any available information on the introduction of the trade form of Crocus medius (by van Tubergen?) if you had the time & the inclination to investigate.
Gerry, I am not sure if I will have the time to search this spring.
There is so much to do in the garden. But maybe it is raining some day??
As I do not know very much about Crocus, may be you could inform me first what is
already known about this particular Crocus?
In which years (approx.) should I search and from which country it comes.
There is a long run of van Tubergen catalogues in the library, but they are all in boxes.
All information is welcome.
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Luit - almost nothing seems to be known about the trade form of Crocus medius apart from the fact that it is probably sterile & quite different in appearance to recently collected wild forms of the species. C. medius is native to the eastern part of the French Riviera & throughout the Italian Riviera but it has been suggested that the trade form may be a hybrid (though I am sceptical about this). It has been around at least since the early 60s, probably much earlier. My reference to van Tubergen was merely a guess based on the fact that they introduced so many widely-cultivated plants.
Anything you discovered would be interesting to me & probably to Thomas H & Tony G among others.