Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Amaryllidaceae => Topic started by: winwen on January 09, 2009, 09:55:15 AM
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While reading the posts in the Amaryllidaceae-section of the rock-gradening-forum, I began to wonder why there is no thread on the -maybe- most spectacular high-altitude-amaryllis "Rhodophiala rhodolirion".
Seeds of this precious little thing are available from some sources and the beauty and estimated hardiness of the plants (especially the white ones) would make it worth a try, I think.
So, I would like to know if there is someone here in the forum cultivating this "cracker", his/her best practices in cultivation, etc...
If noone is cultivating Rh. rhodolirion here, does anyone have an idea why this may be the case? Is it impossible to grow? Too many bad experiences made?
Please tell me!
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Do not know if it is complicate to grow as till now I just have a few last years seedlings of it which started growth actually - the germination rate I had was not very good - may be it was not cold enough here in Spain last winter.
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I agree Hans; good germination rates require a period of chilling. Seed I sowed last October under cold glass only began to emerge after a series of frosts toward the end of the year. A second batch kept under sterile conditions in just-damp perlite geminated after 6-10 weeks in the fridge. Of the several Rhodophiala species I've tried, only andicola seems to have a greater need for this cold treatment than rhodolirion, while others from lower altitudes don't need it at all. However the seedlings are vigorous and strong so now I hope to learn by trial and error how best to manage this species.
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Previously I was very keen on all Rhodophiala species. It seems to me they must be some kind of improved daffodils.
After I detected that a lot of them are very prone to Stagonospora curtisii (red blotch/red leaf spot) I went back to good old daffs.
Rhodophiala rhodolirion was the most infected species.
Narcissus fly loves both of them!
Don't you have problems with the fungus?
Gerd
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Previously I was very keen on all Rhodophiala species. It seems to me they must be some kind of improved daffodils.
After I detected that a lot of them are very prone to Stagonospora curtisii (red blotch/red leaf spot) I went back to good old daffs.
Rhodophiala rhodolirion was the most infected species.
Not so far Gerd, but thanks for the warning. This fungus seems to be widespread in commercially-grown Amaryllidaceae such as Hippeastrum and Sprekelia but without compromising their vigour very much. Are the effects on Rhodophiala more debilitating?
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creed that the kind Hippeastrum mainly is hit from the disease, my Rhodophiala has not had this type of problem, but even if good germination from seed I have had many losses during the years
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Hi:
R. rhodolirion in its few forms is a cool climate species, along with andicola (truly difficult to grow). In the wild they grow in mountain slopes in gritty, rocky ground or screes in full sun. U. S. zone 8 or colder. Basically they receive some rainfall in autumn where the leaves become active, then snow falls and the plants produce no leaves until the defrost, when it also flowers and set seed. This is very similar to what wild tulips experience in Asia. The main mistake, using compost in the mix and watering too much. These are extremely long lived plants, therefore growth of seedlings is slow. Summers are cool and dry, with cool nights even if the daytime temperatures were mild to hot.
Clearly, of those cases when one has to mimick conditions instead of having the plants taking or leaving it. They invariably leave.
Regards
Alberto
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Alberto - Intriguing, can you tell us more about the various forms of R. rhodolirion?
Of several Rhodophiala species sown this autumn R. rhodolirion is showing the most vigour and the seedlings are the biggest and lustiest of all. As Ashley says R. andicola is slow and has not surfaced yet in the cold greenhouse. Thanks for the tip on Stagonospora, I have not seen it yet. Is it caused by cultural or climatic conditions?
I will certainly be trying a few R. rhodolirion outside here after what Alberto said, we can supply the cool summer nights but we are awfully winter wet.
I wonder how dry one can keep the young seedlings.
A friend in the southern UK recently mentioned Stagonospora getting into Galanthus. Has anyone had any problems?
johnw
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Thanks Alberto for this very useful information. As you would expect, the different conditions under which various Rhodophiala spp. grow naturally determines their tolerance or otherwise of winter damp in cultivation. In snow-covered species like rhodolirion and andicola do leaves emerge soon after autumn rains or is this postponed until the spring thaw, as in tulips?
More like fancy tulips than daffs, eh Gerd ;)
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Hi Ashley:
I mentioned that it is like in tulips, that is, roots activated in autumn but leaves, flowers and seed only in spring. The bulbs with no leaves are under snow in winter. The first rains fall in autumn as rain and from then on as snow. In spring you have rainfall too but more scarce.
R. rhodolirion has a white red dotted gorgeous form and the other, better known, pink to rose base and dark reddish markings.
Yes. Rhodophiala is a large genus with species growing under a variety of climates. The countless losses in the past took place because people think they are all like R. bifida (by far the closes thing to Aspidistra in a bulb!)
Regards
Alberto
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Not so far Gerd, but thanks for the warning. This fungus seems to be widespread in commercially-grown Amaryllidaceae such as Hippeastrum and Sprekelia but without compromising their vigour very much. Are the effects on Rhodophiala more debilitating?
Ashley,
The Rhodophiala rhodolirion were lost because of this fungus - maybe other species didn't suffer so much.
Despite the beauty of these plants I'll stay with daffodils and tulips ;D ;D ;D
Gerd
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nobody has of the photos of Rhodophyala to show? :o
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Yes. Rhodophiala is a large genus with species growing under a variety of climates. The countless losses in the past took place because people think they are all like R. bifida (by far the closes thing to Aspidistra in a bulb!)
Alberto
Alberto - Can you tell us about growing and flowering Rhodophiala bifida? I sometimes see synonyms for it.
johnw
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Hi:
There are several color forms of R. bifida, including an albino that has little vigor. There is a color form they call spathacea but there is no spathacea, or, if you wish, all forms are "spathacea"!
In the wild it grows in the pampas, the huge plains of southern South America. Soils are alkaline mostly, very rich in nutrients, clayey, and the bulbs are found down to 1 metre deep. This is important as young bulbs will waste a lot of energy searching for depth. Therefore, if you grow them in pots plant seedlings at the very bottom of the pot.
As for climate, they are found from zone 9 to zone 10 in the wild but as with Ipheion uniflorum and Cypella herberti, another two species from the same part of the world, they are very hardy.
Rainfall. In the wild they receive year round rainfall. The dormant season, when the plants have no leaves (but they have living roots) is summer. At the end of summer, with the first downpour they flower and set seed abundantly as a rule. Afterwards leaves are produced and these remain green until late spring. They are always in the sun.
Propagation is from seed. Very seldom a clumping bulb can be found. Those in Texas, so popular in the States, dark red in color, called "oxblood lilies" the countless millions of it in cultivation, started from a small clump sent to Texas in the late 1800's from a German living here in Argentina.
This is an easy species and people take for granted that all other Rhodophialas are like this. Chilean species are in a good number but are not easy to grow. I suspect they resent humidity a lot.
Regards
Alberto
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Again, fascinating to hear about conditions for bifida in the wild Alberto. I hadn't realised that bulbs migrated quite so deep; certainly not easy to reproduce in a pot! Can you tell us anything about the growth conditions of the Chilean species R. serotina, collected by Watson but apparently not yet described? Very dry I suppose.
Speaking of synonyms John, I have just learned from the Kew monocot checklist that the accepted name for elwesii is R. gilliesiana.
[For the search engine: Rhodophiala bifida elwesii gilliesiana serotina]
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Alessandro,
to make your mouth watering ;D: pictures of Rhodophiala rhodolirion can be found at the following addresses:
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Rhodophiala
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/85175/
http://flickr.com/photos/twiga_269/2309945705/
I have bought seeds of Rh. rodolirion 2 years ago and saw them one year later under cool but frostfree conditions in moist Seramis. About 80% germinated and grew well - no signs of fungal infections. After the foliage withered, the tiny bulbs were stored at room-temperature in (relatively) dry Seramis. In Autumn I wetted the Seramis a little and put the plants in the frigerator. I think that either the Seramis was a bit too moist or the temperature of 4 degree centigrade is a bit too high, because yesterday I saw that some of the plants started growing.
Nevertheless, I found cultivating it not really challenging -at least in their first year. I hope for many more good seasons and -finally- a rewarding plant (as shown in the pictures).
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A couple of pictures of a rhodophiala in the wild in Chile in January
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Alessandro,
to make your mouth watering ;D: pictures of Rhodophiala rhodolirion can be found at the following addresses:
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Rhodophiala
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/85175/
http://flickr.com/photos/twiga_269/2309945705/
I have bought seeds of Rh. rodolirion 2 years ago and saw them one year later under cool but frostfree conditions in moist Seramis. About 80% germinated and grew well - no signs of fungal infections. After the foliage withered, the tiny bulbs were stored at room-temperature in (relatively) dry Seramis. In Autumn I wetted the Seramis a little and put the plants in the frigerator. I think that either the Seramis was a bit too moist or the temperature of 4 degree centigrade is a bit too high, because yesterday I saw that some of the plants started growing.
Nevertheless, I found cultivating it not really challenging -at least in their first year. I hope for many more good seasons and -finally- a rewarding plant (as shown in the pictures).
Winwen
sure the humid climate and a problem, creed is a problem also their winter increase, from we does not receive sufficient sun. The plants in vegetation are accustomed with growing of the days, these endure an inverse cycle
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Again, fascinating to hear about conditions for bifida in the wild Alberto. I hadn't realised that bulbs migrated quite so deep; certainly not easy to reproduce in a pot! Can you tell us anything about the growth conditions of the Chilean species R. serotina, collected by Watson but apparently not yet described? Very dry I suppose.
Speaking of synonyms John, I have just learned from the Kew monocot checklist that the accepted name for elwesii is R. gilliesiana.
[For the search engine: Rhodophiala bifida elwesii gilliesiana serotina]
Ashley
I knew that Rhodophiala elwesii and synonym of Rhodophiala mendocina
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A couple of pictures of a rhodophiala in the wild in Chile in January
Is there anywhere you have not been Tony? 8)
As always, thanks for sharing your experience with us.
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Hi Ashley:
You can stop Rhodophialas by planting right at the very bottom of the pot.. Of course the deeper the beter. This will sound surprising but depth is related to "stem" resistance to support the weight of the inflorescence and infructescence.
It is in doubt if mendocina and elwesii are synonims.
The Rhodophialas that are alpine: elwesii, mendocina, montana, splendens, rhodolirion, andicola, araucana.
As for serotina, if you mention the habitat data in the packet I can tell you about the habitat. It is a published species or John Watson would not use the name.
Regards
Alberto
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A couple of pictures of a rhodophiala in the wild in Chile in January
Is there anywhere you have not been Tony? 8)
As always, thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Tony it was my retirement gift to myself taken after 10 years when I plucked up the courage to go. I wish I had seen the white forms of the rhodophiala but they were some distance away and time ran out.I used John Watsons articles in the AGS journals from the 1970's as a guide and the plants were just where he said they would be.
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I used John Watsons articles in the AGS journals from the 1970's as a guide and the plants were just where he said they would be.
Tony, it seems we followed the same tracks!
For me a mountain of work when I prepared the trip because John Watson's florid style isn't easy to understand for Non English persons.
Nevertheless his hints were invaluable.
Gerd
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Gerd when those articles were written I do not think it was ever expected that people would travel in such numbers to far flung places and visit the places written about. I think it shows the integrity of John Watson's writing that standing reading the text at the places he described was like looking at a photograph. Truly a great credit to him as he could so easily have made it up expecting that nobody would ever be any wiser.
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"The main mistake, using compost in the mix and watering too much."
I agree with Alberto here - I've also had the greatest success in planting Chilean Rhodophiala species in pure, washed river sand or in "decomposed" granite. Feeding with a dilute "hydroponic" fertilizer is essential while they are in growth. Placea ornata also seems to appreciate this method of potting - holding thumbs for flowers in the not too distant future...
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This Rhodophiala I found near of Concepcion /South - Chile. As all other species I have seen also this lowland species has a perfectly drainaged habitat - this one grows on a very sandy soil - has anybody an idea which species could this be?
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As Hans says they were growing in perfectly drained soil with no humus,almost grit. Here is the only other one I saw
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Hi:
To Hans A., the pale salmon and region points to R.advena. This is a very easy species (easy for a Chilean bulb).
Regards
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Alberto, many thanks.
Tony, where did you take this picture? It looks a bit like Rhodophiala montana an andean species of Central Chile.
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I sowed (F&W) seed of Rhodophiala rhodolirion in 2004 and one seed germinated quite quickly, although no more came through. I did read that it liked to go deep, so I have grown it on in a long pot (like a root trainer in shape).
It has grown on very slowly but looks healthy. Does anyone know how large is a flowering size bulb?
Rhodophila rhodolirion
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Alberto, many thanks.
Tony, where did you take this picture? It looks a bit like Rhodophiala montana an andean species of Central Chile.
high in the Maule Valley south of Santiago so you are right with its distribution
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Hi Diane:
About 5 cm. in diameter on.
The trick is repotting a lot deeper every year as soon as the seedling bulbs go dormant.
Regards
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I'm getting a little confused folks. I have Rhodophiala andicola; R. elwesii; R. montana and R. splendens growing from seed sown last September. They were sown in my usual seed mix of JI seed compost with added sand and grit and they germinated outside and then I moved them into the greenhouse. Of the four pots andicola was the poorest germinator. Should I leave them in the greenhouse? I had intended to keep them in growth, and feed them fornightly with a dilute high potash feed, until they start to yellow-is this correct. I had also intended to keep them in the seed pots for a couple of years-is this correct?
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As for serotina, if you mention the habitat data in the packet I can tell you about the habitat. It is a published species or John Watson would not use the name.
Hi Alberto,
It's FW11106 via JJA, collected between Ovalle & Huasco, Atacama, Chile III.
Very arid & with a wide temperature variation I suppose.
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Thanks Ashley:
Autumn, winter and spring grower, dry summer dormant. Soil extremely well drained, alkaline, full sun. Can be grown as a Cape bulb (frost free). You can mimic the thermal amplitude by giving afternoon shade. Coastal fogs keep them cooler at nights.
Soil temperatures over there have been know to reach an impossible 80 C.
regards
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Excellent, Alberto. Thank you again for these insights.
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Alberto, many thanks.
Tony, where did you take this picture? It looks a bit like Rhodophiala montana an andean species of Central Chile.
high in the Maule Valley south of Santiago so you are right with its distribution
I took my picture just there last year in spring - it seems to to have a really small distribution and is said to be endemic to this valley - hope the new road to Argentina will not have a to much influence on this species. :-\
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Hans perhaps only to make it easier to get to see the flowers. The road was terrible in a tiny nissan micra type car.It was only when I got home I read the small print in the rental agreement that said I could not take it of tarmac roads.Ignorance was bliss!
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The road was terrible in a tiny nissan micra type car.
Tony you have my full respect - do not know how you managed this tour with such a car!
We had big problems with our large and heavy off-road vehicle to cross a ford on the way back from the Laguna de Maule – because of melting snow an easy ford in the morning turned to dangerous fast-flowing stream in the evening! It was my first submarine experience in such an altitude. ;)
In a lower altitude in the catchment area of the same river I found a population of red Rhodophiala two years ago – a botanist confirmed its ID as R. splendens – it was a still unknown population (for him) growing in humus rich soil.
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Hans, it was a bit difficult but little cars float!
I had tea with the policeman and his family at Laguna de Maule,his daughter practised her English on me. They were very proud of their countryside and I showed them my flower pictures on the digital camera.Clearly they were only used to fishermen going up there.
I only saw the two species of rhodophiala. I went up the Teno valley as well and the flowers there were wonderful.
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Had no time for tea, we had to safe my wifes dog - mica thought the policemen horses were the best friends... ::) ;)
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Today in flower Rhodophiala bifida
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I grow some Rodophiala species and today I got this flower, may be R. advena,or . bifida or R. pratensis, or something else !!
The flower is about 3 cm wide
very difficult to identiy as there is no real botanical key.
They are easy to grow in the greenhouse and free flowering.
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/11/84/35/03/rodoph12.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=633&u=11843503)
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There is a remarkable photo of this species on the UBC site today.
http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/potd/2011/01/rhodophiala_rhodolirion.php (http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/potd/2011/01/rhodophiala_rhodolirion.php)
johnw - +3c at 22:45, snow aplenty on the way.
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Wow, what a colour form!! :o
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There is a remarkable photo of this species on the UBC site today.
http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/potd/2011/01/rhodophiala_rhodolirion.php (http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/potd/2011/01/rhodophiala_rhodolirion.php)
johnw - +3c at 22:45, snow aplenty on the way.
We (Ian and I) are great fans of the UBS Botany photo of the day.... Daniel Mosquin always finds something great to share with us.
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I didn't know this web site, looks GREAT, with superb pictures and plants...
The Rodophiala is :o :o :o
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Fred, bookmark the site, the Folks at UBC are good guys!
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Already done Maggy ;D
New froggy member for them ;)
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Fred, bookmark the site, the Folks at UBC are good guys!
You can also subscribe for a daily treat.
johnw - 0c and 30cm of snow is on the way, maybe rain on the coast.
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Hy,
Here are two pictures taken this year of them in the wild.
I hope you could enjoy them as I have!
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Just fantastic flowers Santo! Thanks for showing us!
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Oh Yes, I agree !
Thank you very much,
very nice pics.
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Very, very Cool! Thanks so much for showing us.