Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Alex on January 05, 2009, 05:51:34 PM
-
Having been one of those who tried to buy this excellent Crocus from Miniature Bulbs last year, only to find it was C. angustifolius (to be fair, I expected that in view of the price) I have this year paid proper cvijicii money for 3 corms from a leading UK mail order nursery which are coming up now and look to be clearly the wrong thing. I have a few corms of the true species so I do know what it should look like. Anyone else had the same experience? I thought I'd better not name and shame until absolutely sure, but it's pretty much obvious. The same establishment also sold me the beautiful 'Dytiscus' clone of C. korolkowii which has a big bud now (everything early here); it is certainly korolkowii but looks not remotely darkly coloured enough to be this form. Am I alone? Just interested to see if others harbour similar suspicions.
Even my Miniature Bulbs bakerianas have come up with 4 sided stems! But I suspect it's just a mix up, that source is normally pretty good.
Cheers,
Alex
-
After last year I didnt bother trying to get a few more corms of Crocus cvijicii. I'll wait until someone I can trust offers them.
I've also had wrong bulbs from the same supplier as you. A few years ago said person suggested I wrote the wrong name on the label! I also returned soft very mouldy Iris during autumn 2007 and never heard anything back.
-
Like Mark I decided to leave Crocus cvijicii alone this year. But, one of these years..........!
-
I was tempted by his description this year
-
Wise to resist it seems
-
Alex is it C. angustifolius again?
-
Like I just to Maggi I would like to know who is conning who? Said supplier always says this corm/bulb/rhizome ... was supplied by this that and the other well known grower. Are they conning him or is s/he conning us. It may be that bulbs have been wrong for years and we were sitting at home thinking isnt this a beaut and being none the wiser that is was something different. It's now thanks to all the experts that now frequent the forum that we are catching on.
-
It hasn't flowered but the leaves are well up already totally unlike cvijicii (or those I've seen anyway). Could be any number of things including angustifolius, in which case it can join the enormous drift of them in the garden following last year's cvijicii purchase.
-
I have had two occasions to complain to this supplier. The first was about 20 years ago when the response was totally inadequate. I think at that time he had overextended himself & tended to supply poor quality bulbs. The second was last year when a damaged bulb was replaced immediately & my postage refunded. Otherwise, the bulbs I have had from this source over the last three years have been of excellent quality & true to name.
-
I ordered a C. cvijicii of that company too this year, leaves are just showing so I don't know yet but I'll keep an eye out to see if it's the real deal. It wouldn't be the first time I get something that isn't up to standard from that supplier but I never can stop buying from him (too many goodies :))
I've ordered a lot of them in the last couple of years but this would only be the third time I would have to complain. Normally they deliver very good bulbs.
Wim
-
Do you never get under sized bulbs? I have
-
Sometimes I had to wait one or more years before they wanted to flower (I think I had to wait for three years before my Scoliopus hallii had it's first flower) but with some of them I don't mind the wait because I can't find them anywhere else (although they can be a bit expensive for not flowering bulbs)
Wim
-
If we are talking about rare bulbs ( ::) ) then I am fed up with talk of "naturally small" bulbs of things which I know, when grown well, will be like fat apples for size. Yes, there are some things which do make naturally small corms... like Rhodohypoxis, for instance, which never cease to amze me with the number of flowers you can get from a tiny corm.
I think six or so years to wait for the first, pathetic flower from a frit bulb supplied as FS is just too much, however. :P Likewise the orchid seedlings which needed a hand lens to find them in the moss! :P >:(
-
Maybe I'm too patient. Do you mean the Australian orchid "seedlings"? I had to search for the Pterostylis bulb I ordered for two hours I think ;) Oops, that seems to be complaint number four.
-
Some of my Rhodohypoxis went to Sweden in November. I felt guilty giving the tiny bulbs.
-
The question has to be why has s/he got away with it for so long
-
Maybe I'm too patient. Do you mean the Australian orchid "seedlings"? I had to search for the Pterostylis bulb I ordered for two hours I think ;) Oops, that seems to be complaint number four.
I think the "invisible" seedlings were hybrid cypripediums ........ whatever, when we eventually found something that MIGHT have been a seedling, it died from fright anyway!
-
The question has to be why has s/he got away with it for so long
The answer might be: because most people are, for the most part, satisfied with what they get.
-
No sign of what I bought as cvijicii, but there is a bud showing of 'Cream of Creams', which I know to be correct.
-
Hi All,
I purchased the real plant a few years ago from Norman Stevens of Cambridge Bulbs. I bought only one and wish I had more as it doesn't seem to multiply for me although it looks great and flowers well. Unfortunately he didn't offer it last year but It has appeared on his list off and on so it might be worth checking his list this year when it comes out.
Jim
-
I purchased the real plant a few years ago from Norman Stevens of Cambridge Bulbs. I bought only one and wish I had more as it doesn't seem to multiply for me although it looks great and flowers well. Unfortunately he didn't offer it last year but It has appeared on his list off and on so it might be worth checking his list this year when it comes out. Jim
Mine also came from Norman Stevens and is here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1121.195
It has only made one small offset from 3 bulbs in 3 years. With the present weather conditions, it may be a little later flowering this year than last
-
I have only seen it as individual plants in the wild and not found any with off-sets so it may be that it is not one that multiplies easily. Cue for a picture of a clump in the wild to prove me wrong!
-
I too had it from Norman Stevens some years ago but, like so many plants, I lost it fairly quickly. In his 1995 catalogue it is described as from Jim Archibald seed & it cost £4.50 per corm - fairly pricey by Norman's standards & in fact the most expensive crocus in his list.
-
Gerry,
The price may be the reason I only purchased one. You mentioned you lost yours quickly. I keep my plant shaded in a woodland bed. It gets a little sun in the morning but thats it and stays fairly cool. C. banaticus and C. veluchensis do well here also. It always flowers nicely just doesn't increase. It looks as though seed production may be the way to go.
Jim
-
Jim - very interesting. I potted up my solitary bulb in the same 'woodsy' mix I use for C. banaticus & kept it uncovered & plunged in the same shaded conditions. C. banaticus thrived (& still does) while C. cvijicii disappeared after one flowering. Perhaps it does better planted out? I have never tried it since, partly because it is rarely offered but mainly because of the price.
-
I bought a single corm from (what was then) Potterton and Martin, back in '93 so 15 years ago. It has increased by about a dozen in that time and always flowers well but has never set any seed except when fortuitously pollinated by C. veluchensis. I probably have half a dozen now, having given away a few.
-
I meant to mention that mine have always been in 1st, a very gritty trough and 2nd, in a very gritty/gravelly raised bed.
-
I was just looking at some Crocus cvijicii photos and was struck by the difference in colour there seems to be in these two shots..... different light conditions etc.........interesting because we have been considering camera reproduction of yellow/gold/orange c shaeds in another thread.... about Crocus 'Uscak Orange'
in this page...http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2860.msg68248#new
Here are the two Crocus cvijicii pix, the first from mid-February 2007 , the next from (a week later in..) 2008
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
-
Very impressive Maggi. I guess Aberdeen must be more like northern Greece than Brighton is. Then there is the little matter of cultivation skills......
-
Very impressive Maggi. I guess Aberdeen must be more like northern Greece than Brighton is. Then there is the little matter of cultivation skills......
Mmmm... Aberdeen more like northern Greece than Brighton
?..... well, I havent spent any time in Northern Greece, so it's hard to tell......but if you're offering a ticket? ::)
Then there is the little matter of cultivation skills......
..... and that is nothing to do with me, of course... these beauties are the province of the BD, or beloved Despot ;D
-
Is that something else?
BTW, thanks for the magazine Mark. :)
-
I bought some Crocus and a Crocus has come up but not what I was expecting. Same supplier as everyone else. Are we about to name and shame?
I daresay there will be different opinions on this. Over the years I have bought bulbs & seeds from most of the suppliers trading in the UK & I cannot think of one who has not at some time supplied poor quality or wrongly named plants. In my view, the difference between a good supplier & a poor one is how they respond to complaints. Last year I was happy to contribute to the thread criticising the company who supplied C. angustifolius for C. cvijicii not because of the wrongly named plants but because their response to a complaint was complacent & dismissive.
-
I bought some Crocus and a Crocus has come up but not what I was expecting. Same supplier as everyone else. Are we about to name and shame?
Mark I am not in any way suggesting this and think it is quite wrong to name suppliers and could be possibly be illegal, I just get frustrated by obscure postings. You did not even indicate it was a wrongly named crocus,it could have been a different genus you had been supplied with. You say same supplier as everybody else and yet I am sure many people have no idea who this is. I have withdrawn my post and am sorry for having written it.
-
I'm all for naming and shaming PROVIDED that the suppliers attention has been drawn to the problem and that he has failed to respond to it in an appropriate way. There can be a number of reasons why the 'wrong' bulb comes up; a mistake in packing; a mistake made by a wholesaler supplying a retailer and no doubt others. I would not expect any reputable supplier to intentionally supply the 'wrong' product in order to deceive or defraud a customer.
-
I'm all for naming and shaming PROVIDED that the suppliers attention has been drawn to the problem and that he has failed to respond to it in an appropriate way. There can be a number of reasons why the 'wrong' bulb comes up; a mistake in packing; a mistake made by a wholesaler supplying a retailer and no doubt others. I would not expect any reputable supplier to intentionally supply the 'wrong' product in order to deceive or defraud a customer.
An excellent point, David.
Tony, I do not believe it would be illegal to mention a company with whom one had had bad trading experiences....if that were the case the BBC "Watchdog" programme and others like it would never be aired!
I would ask forumists to be more careful about making vague or obscure posts... perhaps a good rule of thumb, if not making a post which follows directly on from one which you refer to, would be to "Quote" the post YOUR post addresses. Thanks !
-
Below something to brighten up this topic ........ from a humble, down trodden nurseryman.
-
Flowering now Rob? Really nice in a large group like that
-
I am sorely tempted, humble down-trodden nurseryman, to ask you who sold you Crocus sieberi 'Ronald Ginns' as Crocus cvijicii ;D ;)
Instead I will rejoice that you have handed me a new forum nick name for you on a plate!! :-*
Is 'Ronald Ginn', the same Ginn as in Galanthus 'Ginn's Imperator' ?
-
Put me down for some of them Rob ;D
-
I just wanted to make clear the difference between last year's (Miniature Bulbs) and this (apparently we're not yet saying) wrong C cvijicii suppliers. It's about 9 pounds per corm. Which is why I was happy to take a punt last year, and was anything but surprised (and not particularly disappointed) when they were wrong, despite assurances from the nurseryman. This year, on the other hand...
Alex
-
Mark, happy new year. The photograph of Ronald Ginns was taken from our display at RHS Show, Vincent Square in February 2008, no sign of growth today - like me they are still hiding from sub zero temperatures but they should be up & looking cute by the middle of February.
Maggi - spent 5 minutes in "Profile" failing to change back my forum nickname ..... ok, fair enuf - you win. Crocus sieberi 'Ronald Ginns' was raised by Mr Ray Cobb, Nottingham, UK and named by him after his late friend Ronald Ginns who i understand was very well known as a grower of cactus in the 1950's / 1960's. I don't know about the Galanthus connection.
On the subject of incorrectly named Crocus cvijicii, in the first instance the nursery involved should be informed of their error and permitted to resolve the issue. When this situation happens at our nursery we apologise, give a refund, let the customer keep the bulb, then check our stock or get a supplier to check his stock and then endeavour to resupply correct to name the following season. Please realise the vast majority of retail bulb suppliers do not cultivate ALL of the bulbs offered in their catalogues. Currently from our new 2009 bulb catalogue approximately 35% of the varieties offered are propogated & cultivated in our nursery, for the remainder we rely on tried & tested suppliers. I see nothing wrong in this pratice provided the bulbs or plants are correctly named. We too had offered & supplied Crocus cvijicii in autumn 2007, purchased from a proven wholesale supplier that summer which then turned out to be Crocus angustifolius. We were highlighted to this problem initially through the comments on this forum and then by complaints from several customers. We apologised for the mistake, gave refunds and notified the supplier. In summer of 2008 Crocus cvijicii continued to be offered from several wholesale suppliers, all at very low prices, quite obviously we did not offer cvijicii in 2008 knowing the bulbs were incorrectly named.
I hope this explanation offers an understanding of how bulbs are sometimes supplied incorrectly named in the trade.
-
When this situation happens at our nursery we apologise, give a refund, let the customer keep the bulb.....
I can confirm Rob's statement from my own experience.
-
Rob, it is extremely helpful to have your professional comments and insight on these matters.
Would that some others were so open and direct as yourself.
We too had offered & supplied Crocus cvijicii in autumn 2007, purchased from a proven wholesale supplier that summer which then turned out not to be Crocus angustifolius
I think that you have made a wee typing slip there and probably meant to write " then turned out not to be Crocus cvijicii but Crocus angustifolius "
Rob, if you really hate your nickname then you can remove it yourself..... just a question of clicking the right buttons in Profile,and I will certainly remove it for you if you wish..... but it's so sweet to have you as humble and down-trodden, when you are so clearly able and willing to fight your corner 8) ;D
Let me know........
M
-
Maggi, i am naturally impetuous so having to live up to my new "humble" nickname could be beneficial - but so sweet i am not ;)
Yuk, hot today so back to a 7 day week starting with the packing of Pleione orders. Cheers
-
Hmmm...looks a lot like my Crocus korolkowii "Dytiscus" from the same source, about which a phone call will shortly ensue
-
I've now sent an email to the nursery for some clarity and removed my post above. If this is supposed to be Crocus korolkowii 'Dytiscus' and all we get is C. korolkowii ?'Agailk', or similar, a lot of people will not be happy in coming weeks when their corms flower.
-
Was just in the greenhouse, and noticed that the bud on Dytiscus is much darker than it was - in theory it could continue to darken I suppose....not that this proves anything but I may have to concede the possibility that it could be the right plant. Good job I didn't mention any names, eh! :-X Crocus cvijicii seems wronger than ever, though. So a phone call still in order.
Alex
-
Was just in the greenhouse, and noticed that the bud on Dytiscus is much darker than it was - in theory it could continue to darken I suppose....not that this proves anything but I may have to concede the possibility that it could be the right plant.
Alex - I have dim memories of the reintroduction into the UK of Bowles' 'Dytiscus' some years ago by the supplier you are dealing with. If my memory can be trusted, he said it had been preserved by someone in Latvia. I wonder if this could be Janis &, if so, whether he has any comments on how the colour develops? My understanding of 'Dytiscus' is of a flower whose outer petals are dark brown with a narrow yellow margin.
-
48 hours and no reply from the supplier re supplying wrong bulbs
-
48 hours and no reply from the supplier re supplying wrong bulbs
Mark - did you email via the website? I believe emails which are not sent in this way are treated as spam.
-
yeah that's how I sent the email
-
What the blue blazes can any kind of business be thinking that only accepts emails from a certain provenance?
I never heard anything so stupid.
That's as daft as saying that only enquiries with an SAE will be replied to .....cutting off one's nose to spite one's face comes to mind here. One thing to encourage an SAE, another to insist on it. :P
I did visit a site recently that says that since they are busy, they will try to answer your query within a week .... I didn't bother even trying.
Here at the SRGC "world wide hub of communication" anyone emailing gets an automated response, so that they know their email is headed in the right direction and I make every effort to respond PRONTO, either with a complete answer, or with a note that the matter has been passed on to a rlevant person to deal further etc... I would consider this to be the least that can be expected ...now I know the SRGC has this reputation as the being one of the friendliest places and yes, I am a volunteer.... but in any situation where a business has employees, or even if a small family run enterprise, communication with the "public" is paramount. How often do you see travellers, incandescent with rage at an airport, held up for some reason.... they are full of rage becasue no-one is telling them anything.... they always say... "why can't we be told what's going on? We just need to know that."
When I was in gainful employment (ah, those happy far off days!) if I failed to respond for a week, or not at all, I would have been in a dole queue faster than Chris Hoy can circle a cycle track!
I am horrified that anyone in a position as a contact for any company or organisation should take this attitude and position. It cannot be cost effective in the long run and you wouldthink that that fact alone would galvanise them to do better.
It is something I feel very strongly about.... you may have guessed that fact!
[attach=1]
-
I feel the heat of your rant all the way here. Phew!
-
Not a woman to be crossed Mark. ;D
Dear Moderator can we please have an emoticom for 'fear'
-
I bought from the same supplier Leucojum 'Podpoloje', or similar spelling. It's known for it's yellow tips. That spring the tips were green so I contacted him. He says let it settle and it will be yellow the following spring. Well many years later they are still green tipped.
-
Not a woman to be crossed Mark. ;D
Dear Moderator can we please have an emoticom for 'fear'
I hear and respond, dear Forumist.... a selection for you .....
[attach=1] [attach= 2]
[attach= 3] [attach=4 ]
[attach=5 ] [attach= 6]
[attach=7 ]
-
This one will do:-
-
And to top it all, it seems that I was wrong about the Dytiscus - the dark bud was aborting. there's one more bud which is far too light still (and photos of similar stage buds online are completely different) >:(. Phone call tomorrow, it is usually possible to get hold of him that way and the email route is clearly not working!
-
just to let you know - I called the nurseryman, who was polite and said he had heard from someone else that Dytiscus looked like a bog- standard korolkowii, so would issue a credit or refund no problem. As for the cvijicii, he told me that the species was variable, and I was probably thinking of the best Mt. Vermion forms which his wasn't, so as he hadn't heard from anyone else about it could I hold on until flowers are out; of still clearly wrong then he will refund. So overall a good result, although disappointing that I don't have the plants I thought I did.
-
I bought from the same supplier Leucojum 'Podpoloje', or similar spelling. It's known for it's yellow tips. That spring the tips were green so I contacted him. He says let it settle and it will be yellow the following spring. Well many years later they are still green tipped.
Mark,
somewhere recently I read by chance "magnesia" causes the green color tips on Leucojum. I tend to believe it because I made a similar observation in my garden. Did you fertilize them?
-
No, they have never had fertilizer put on them
-
maybe too calciferous soil?
-
Armin I dont know what my soil type is. Maybe I should test it this weekend.
-
I should say I'm still waiting for a reply re my wrongly supplied korolkowii
-
Mark, it may be worth phoning, he is now aware that the Dytiscus is wrong.
By contrast, a single corm of cvijicii from Janis just last year is now putting up two flower buds, one from an offset - great stuff indeed as I have heard this sp. doesn't normally do that (it's definitely the right thing!)
Alex
-
C. cvijicii does make offsets, but not nearly so fast as some others. I've had about 12 or 13 flowering size corms in 15-16 years.
-
5 weeks later I get a reply from Paul Christian ::)
-
5 weeks later I get a reply from Paul Christian ::)
Well?
-
"We have taken this up with the person that originally sent us these.
The primary stock also came from him so I do not know quite what has
happened this time, but suspect that he has had a mix up for some
reason. What we and you had was indeed plain korolkowii.
I am waiting to hear but thought that I would update you - will be in
touch in due course.
Of course you will not lose out financially on this."
-
And the "cvijicii" which he persuaded me to be patient with looks less like this species with every passing day...mind you, I thought a full refund for the Dytiscus wasn't too bad.
Alex
-
No photos Alex?
-
I will when the flowers open.
-
OK, I can see the buds now, it's angustifolius I'm pretty sure. 100% not cvijicii. Time for another phone call.
How can someone get taken in by that dodgy angustifolius again, after we all know what happened last year? Also, everyone else was selling this "cvijicii" for about a pound a corm last year, presumably reflecting the low cost of buying this stock in - but I parted with a whopping 9.50 a corm for these!!!! OK, you-know-who may have been charged more this year, but it suggests that a mark-up of truly titanic proportions has taken place.
Alex
-
It is all too easy for someone to mix up bulbs and corms, I am sure we have all done this at some point. A seller who purports to particular expertise, however, should really know better when buying in from a supplier, who, through no fault of his own, may be sending mis-named items.
Hard to blame the "Dutch" growers, as so often happens......after all theirs is a huge industry and they will be as vulnerable as any to the supply of misnamed items themselves. Where would our gardens be without the contribution made by the wholesale bulb and plant growers, whether in Holland or elsewhere?
They'd be much the poorer, of that I am quite sure.
That said, anyone buying stock in at a bulk price, especially of an item which is well known NOT to increase freely, and then on-selling for a premium price, really ought to get their act in gear and check their stock.
-
I well know that holding stiock for long periods is expensive and that buyers-in do so with the intention of getting rid of such stock as soon as possible, in order to get their money back and the profit to be made...BUT...I feel strongly that retailers who buy in stock from elsewhere should grow it one until it has flowered and true naming can be guaranteed. In NZ we have The Consumer Guarantees Act which among other things requires a retailer to sell "the correct product, fit for the purpose for which it was intended" (or words to that effect). This means that if NOT correct, the product may be returned to the retailer for a full replacement or refund - whichever one wants - and it is the retailer's responsibility to contact the wholesaler for compensation from that point. In other words, even if a retailer has been supplied with the wrong product by the wholesaler, it is not enough for him to blame the wholesaler, he must do something about it and compensate the end buyer and himself seek compensation from HIS suppluier, the wholesaler. Even though one may not be able to tell if a plant is correctly named for months or even years, the Act still applies.
It is a pity that so many people think, "oh well, too late now" and do nothing. Thus, the problem doesn't get fixed, and go away. It was only because a number of us kept complaining that our Iris danfordiae were in fact, 'Harmony' that the NZ importers eventually got some joy from the Dutch suppliers who have, over many years, treated NZ gardeners as if we were rubbish, and stupid with it. (Van Tubergens once responded to a complaint that N. cyclamineus was actually N. lobularis, by saying - I saw the letter which was signed by Michael Hoog - "they must have changed when they crossed over the equator." Hello?)
-
I agree about the need to grow on, although to be somewhat fair to the supplier I was referring to, he is usually pretty good about offering a credit in these cases if not an actual refund. I just don't think some people can resist the opportunity to make a very quick buck or several, so this sort of thing will always happen at certain establishments. I know the nursery business can be a very hard one to make money in, but..
Alex
-
I find the tone of some of the recent comments here rather disturbing with their covert implications of deliberate rip-offs (if not worse). I have no reason to believe that the majority of the UK suppliers are anything but honest, though it is possible they place too much trust in their own suppliers. The supplier who is the subject of the present thread (with whom I have no connection & have never met) is both expert & responds in a responsible way to complaints (which is not the case with at least one other UK supplier). This contrasts with the behaviour of a major Dutch supplier whom I contacted last year to point out that their website contained, under the heading of C. cvijicii, a picture of, & a description of, C. angustifolius . They responded saying they would remove the offending entry. In the event, they did not do so. The supplier who is the subject of the present thread has always been relatively expensive but I have no idea what his 'mark up' is &, I would suggest, neither does anyone else. Of course, it would be wonderful if all suppliers produced their own plants but it is clear that the few who do so necessarily have a rather limited range.
-
Well, from my point of view I have never implied any deliberate attmept to defraud whatsoever. But you do understand that it is very disappointing when two of two very expensive, special Crocus varieties ordered by me from this source last year turned out to be garden centre types (OK, a posh garden centre...). When this amount of money is being asked for, which based on what we do know about these things must be very likely to represent a large mark up, the responsibility of the grower to ensure naming is correct, which is present in any case, is all the greater. So, this is a failure on behalf of the supplier. We have all been quite restrained in not naming, I think.
Alex
-
Alex - of course I understand that receiving the wrong plant is disappointing. I also agree that it is the responsibility of the supplier to supply correctly named plants &, where this is not the case, to act appropriately. You acknowledge that this supplier has done so. As regards the size of the mark-up, I have no 'insider' knowledge so I am unable to comment.
-
Alex you are quite right about nurseries not being great money makers. Sure the big name places are different and properly so, but for all the many little nurseries who supply alpines as an example, or little bulbs, or many other "specialist" plants from fuchsias to geraniums or whatever, the nursery concerned is a labour of love in the vast majority of cases, and if costs are covered and a little extra to indulge in a few new or relatively expensive plants, we think we're doing pretty well. For many such owners the nursery has come about because the person concerned has an almost pathological "need" to grow and propagate plants. It is as natural to that person - and as necessary - as breathing.
Having said that, once we take that step of asking for money in exchange for our plants, we have responsibilities 1) to provide good value for the money we receive and 2) to ensure that what we supply is correct. Heaven knows the world of plant names is sufficiently complicated already, without adding the clutter of badly named material.
-
Quote from a seller to me at the Gala "snowdrops are the new gold"
-
If snowdrops were the new Pound there would be no need for SuperGord ::)
-
Quote from a seller to me at the Gala "snowdrops are the new gold"
Sounds like a comment calculated to part the fool from his money. :-X