Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Roma on December 19, 2008, 10:59:35 PM

Title: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Roma on December 19, 2008, 10:59:35 PM
I was about to post the following pics on the early flowering narcissus thread, but I see it has been locked. ( I totally agree with you Maggi)

The first pic is of Narcissus cantabricus hybrids, grown as such from seed a number of years ago. The second is of Narcissus romieuxii subsp. albidus var. zaianicus, a nicely shaped flower.  The other bulb in this pot has produced a rather crumpled flower as have the bulbs in a second pot.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Maggi Young on December 19, 2008, 11:14:33 PM
As the number of crocus in flower goes through a quiet spell, I wonder sometimes how I would survive if it were not for these wee gems to cheer the longest of  the dark days.... just as well I'm not living any further north, isn't it? Roma, beautifully grown bulbs.... well, of course!
Here's another pic of the same ...taken from a Bulblog of the 20th february this year..... quite a difference in flowering time, eh?

Also, our plant looks to have deeper bells... are you stamens exserted, if you'll pardon my impudent question?  :-[
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: annew on December 20, 2008, 09:13:54 AM
Lovely potfuls, Roma. We at least who grow these delights will have a white Christmas.  :D
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: David Nicholson on December 20, 2008, 10:02:43 AM
I'm utterly besotted with (by?) them.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on December 20, 2008, 10:31:33 AM
Wonderful show Roma !!!!
I agree totally that these beauties perfectly fill the gap inbetween late and early Crocus !
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Rogan on December 20, 2008, 04:22:22 PM
To the Narc aficionados,

What exactly (...or almost!) is N. cantabricus 'Petunioides'? I can find very little info on the www regarding my pot of seedling narcs (ex. JJA Seeds) - thanks.

I love your pot of narcs Roma - very beautiful!
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: mark smyth on December 20, 2008, 04:30:00 PM
Rogan they are my favourite but I dont own any. Their trumper is curled back and quite flat
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Maggi Young on December 20, 2008, 05:20:33 PM
Rogan, have a look through these BulbLogs  ... main page here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/bulblog.html

See Nos.
 1/03     3/04     3/06     8/08... that will give you more idea about what is more often called N. cantabricus petuniode form.....  JCA 805  and the selection 'Julia Jane' is the most well known of these types in N. romieuxii.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Gerry Webster on December 20, 2008, 05:26:11 PM
Rogan- here is a scan from Blanchard's book. The quality is poor but it will give you an idea.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Maggi Young on December 20, 2008, 05:51:22 PM
Far be it from me to start another name discussion...
but the scan shows a plant in the wild, labelled as    aff. petuniodes...... which suggest to me that while it  has some  similarities with petunioides, it is nt actually that.... and indeed the phot does not show the very petunia- like wide face that I would expect from the JCA collections.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Gerry Webster on December 20, 2008, 06:22:59 PM
Maggi - according to Blanchard, until recently most of the bulbs of N. cantabricus var. petunioides  in cultivation derive from a  single bulb received by his father in the 1930s from van Tubergen. The botanical description was apparently based on this clone & though the origin was not known for certain it was  assumed to be Algeria. Blanchard  mentions  recent wild sightings of "similar", "identical" or "typical" plants   in Morocco by himself & Mike Salmon but there is no reference to Jim Archibald. I agree that the plant in Blanchard's photo does not look all that  petunia-like but I bow to his  superior knowledge of narcissus in general & the original plant in particular. 

I had N. cantabricus var. petunioides  (said to be the original clone) from Elizabeth Strangman some years ago but lost it before it flowered so I don't know how it compares with Blanchard's photo. I believe JCA805, from which 'Julia Jane' derives, is N. romieuxii . 'Julia Jane'  is said to be easier to grow but I have never seen the genuine plant in the flesh  so  I have no idea how the two compare in their petunioidness (if there is such a word).

Edit - in the JJA seedlist of Aug 2003 Jim states that his seeds come from the original clone (selfed) but only some will be petunioid.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Ian Y on December 20, 2008, 06:54:13 PM
Gerry
I used to grow N. cantabricus var. petunioides but lost it some years ago before I went over to digital photography so I will only have slide pictures and have no idea exactly where they are.

What you state is correct that it is a N. cantabricus and so pure white but it has the same petunioide shape as some of the selections from  N. romieuxii from 805.

I only wish I could get hold of it again as seed which as you also state only the selected flat and wide flared forms can be given the varietal name - it is so beautiful even more so than it looks in the picture  you scanned

The last year it flowered was the year I made the cross between it and N. triandrus where N. cantabricus var. petunioides was the pollen parent.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Roma on December 20, 2008, 11:14:43 PM
Maggi, I have studied other pics of my Narcissus zaianicus and it does indeed seem to have exserted stamens.  It was grown from AGS seed sown in January 2004 and first flowered last year.  I find it difficult to identify these hoop petticoat narcissi and usually keep the name they were grown as.  It is easy to say something is definitely wrong if it is very different from the description but it is harder to put a true name to it especially as they can hybridise.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Rogan on December 21, 2008, 07:33:38 AM
Well, that is certainly very interesting - thanks for your comments and photos.

My 'petunioides' bulbs are two years old from seed, so I'm holding my breath for flowers this winter - perhaps its Moroccan origins explain its propensity for growth in my warm climate?
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: annew on December 21, 2008, 09:39:20 AM
I've been looking at photos from last year - this is a pot of N catab petunioides from seed. If I remember correctly, some of the later ones to flower were more widely flared. The second photo is of Atlas Gold, a bit 'over the top' in my eyes.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Gerry Webster on December 21, 2008, 10:36:58 AM
Anne - many thanks for the photos. Interesting to compare your N. cantabricus var. petunioides with Blanchard's pic. I have 'Atlas Gold' in bud for the first time; I'm inclined to agree, a bit OTT!
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Alessandro.marinello on December 21, 2008, 12:50:55 PM
this and mine, a side photo Narcissus cantabricus Imincaoute Morocco
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Rafa on December 21, 2008, 01:43:19 PM
One from Israel, from my friend Miriam Sason collection
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: mark smyth on December 21, 2008, 01:50:17 PM
Anne I always thought the turned back corona like your Atlas Gold was petunoid

Here are some of my N. asturiensis 'Cedric Morris'. My camera hates the colour of this Narcissus
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: annew on December 21, 2008, 04:15:23 PM
It is, Mark, isn't it?
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Maggi Young on December 21, 2008, 04:51:18 PM
Quote
  Anne I always thought the turned back corona like your Atlas Gold was petunoid

It is, Mark, isn't it?


Mark, yes, there are various types with these really petunia-like flowers, with flat faces and  the heavily turned back edges.... much more so than N. canatb. var petunioides
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: mark smyth on December 21, 2008, 05:17:40 PM
I have re read your post.

My 'Atlas Gold' has never flowered since it first flowered in one of my troughs. This is maybe 3 or 4 years ago. What could be going wrong? It produces leaves OK
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Gerry Webster on December 21, 2008, 07:21:59 PM
Mark - 'Atlas Gold' is a form of N. romieuxii. I find that forms of this species (I only have a couple) benefit from a cool, dry summer rest under cover. Of course, other people's experience may be different.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: annew on December 21, 2008, 08:20:17 PM
All my romieuxii types are grown in the bulb house and dry in summer.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Gerry Webster on December 21, 2008, 09:29:46 PM
The second photo is of Atlas Gold, a bit 'over the top' in my eyes.

Anne - your 'Atlas Gold' looks a good deal more petunia-like than the photos on Daffseek. Does the degree of flaring increase as the flower ages?
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: fermi de Sousa on December 22, 2008, 01:58:36 AM
To the Narc aficionados,
What exactly (...or almost!) is N. cantabricus 'Petunioides'? I can find very little info on the www regarding my pot of seedling narcs (ex. JJA Seeds) - thanks.
Rogan,
sorry, I didn't see your original post till this morning.
Here are pics of what I assume is Narc. cantabricus var. petunioides, though that wasn't the label on the packet of seed (from SRGC Seedex as N. cantab. var. clusii)
It has a very flat flower and appears more substantial than N romieuxii.
[attachthumb=1]
These were taken last year as, alas, it didn't flower this year.
[attachthumb=2]
and for comparison to N. rom."Mon Dieu"
[attachthumb=3]
cheers
fermi
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Paul T on December 22, 2008, 04:38:22 AM
Fermi,

That is so beautifully white!!!!!  Very nice flower!
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Gerdk on December 22, 2008, 10:36:58 AM
Oh ' Mon Dieux ' - what a pair of superb daffodils!

Gerd
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Gerry Webster on December 22, 2008, 11:27:02 AM
Fermi - a striking plant, & very different to both Anne's & Blanchard's wild form. Here is the relevant entry from JJA seeds (Aug 2003). Jim Archibald  is surely correct to say that the original form should have had a clonal rather than a botanical name. Creating a new, distinct taxon on the basis of one plant of unknown origin does not seem particularly sensible. But sense doesn't seem to have played much part in the naming of these little hoop-petticoats.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: annew on December 22, 2008, 02:48:04 PM
Anne - your 'Atlas Gold' looks a good deal more petunia-like than the photos on Daffseek. Does the degree of flaring increase as the flower ages?
[/quote]
It was the first flowering last year and I can't remember!
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Hans J on December 23, 2008, 10:29:20 AM
Hi folks ,

Now today with some sun is here a pic of my

Narcissus cantabricus foliosus

Enjoy
Hans 8)
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Anthony Darby on December 23, 2008, 07:56:33 PM
These petunioid forms are so different. I must make a note.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: art600 on December 23, 2008, 11:53:30 PM
Hans

That is a very nice Narcissus.  Do you have a large collection?
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Hans J on December 24, 2008, 09:10:58 AM
Art

What is a large collection ? ;)
I have never count my pots ....
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: art600 on December 24, 2008, 02:58:16 PM
Then it is large   :)
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Hans J on December 24, 2008, 03:01:46 PM
Art ,

I have a bit more ....but I dont know which has narcissus fly visitet ::)
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Anthony Darby on December 26, 2008, 11:43:42 AM
Narcissus 'Camoro'.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: dominique on December 27, 2008, 03:18:50 PM
Since the beginning of December, Narcissus Taffeta
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: ashley on December 27, 2008, 09:24:16 PM
In the greenhouse today Narcissus asturiensis SP47, from Brian Duncan.

Outdoors the first N. ‘February Gold’ ? are rather early this year, after a relatively cool autumn turning milder recently.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: dominique on December 28, 2008, 10:18:02 AM
Hi Ashley
Your pic don t look February Gold which is in the cyclamineus section
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: ashley on December 28, 2008, 10:23:59 AM
Thanks Dominique; you're right.  Unfortunately I've lost track of what it is.
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Alessandro.marinello on December 28, 2008, 11:15:01 AM
today I have found a surprise in my greenhouse :)
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Paul T on December 28, 2008, 11:24:43 AM
And doesn't it have the nicest perfume?  N. assoanus is one of my favourites for perfume...... mine smells sort of like a distillation of the tazettas/jonquillas etc, but without the cloying overtones that so many of those have.  It's like it has got all the best bits and got rid of the worst bits, all packed together into such delicate little flowers.  I can almost smell it just looking at the name of it.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Michael J Campbell on December 28, 2008, 01:38:54 PM
A view of some Narcissus mesatlanticus x camoro hybs
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Lars S on December 28, 2008, 08:33:59 PM
Here is (hopefully) a picture of a narcissus romieuxii of some kind flowering now in my unheated green house. I got it from Brian Duncan. Could it be mesatlanticus ?. There are more bulbs in the pot that are only just showing green tips. I am not sure if they are the same kind though.


Lars
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Maggi Young on December 28, 2008, 08:55:39 PM
Quote
Could it be mesatlanticus ?.

Hard to tell, Lars....it looks a bit long in the tube, but then it is just opening.  :-\
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Lars S on December 28, 2008, 10:39:12 PM
Yes, I´m sorry for the poor quality of the photo. Light is very scarce here this time of year so I am afraid that the flower doesn´t open much  :(. More buds are developing though so maybe I can take a better photo later on in spring.

Lars
Title: Re: Winter flowering narcissi
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on December 29, 2008, 08:25:06 AM
One thing for sure Lars, it looks nice and definitely isn't elongated... !  ;)
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