Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: Janis Ruksans on December 05, 2008, 01:04:39 PM
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In December starts silent period in Crocus blooming here (of course only in greenhouses). The last bloomers are Crocus cambessedesii – although blooms are small, they are very nice. Still in full blooms are late forms of Crocus laevigatus and C. biflorus melantherus. Violet form of Crocus caspius just started “second” blooming. I have 2 forms of this species – white and lilac (last I got from Norman Stevens - UK). Interestingly, those flowers of second blooming (using Ian Young’s terminology) are darker in shade than those which bloomed in October-November. I suppose that it is due lower temperatures and light intensity. Still are some blooms in pots of white and blue forms of Crocus niveus, close to end are Crocus boryi and C. goulimyi – all forms and subspecies of it. I’m quite doubtful – is it worth to separate subsp. leucanthus. I saw during my visit in Peloponnese this autumn in every population great variation both in size and color – from almost white through bi-colored to very deep blue and larger and smaller blooms. There are just last flowers on Crocus kotschyanus (HKEP-9205) and C. thomasii but Crocus veneris only pushed through soil the flower buds. No sun is outside and flowers remain closed. Main job is taking off of old flowers to prevent corms from infection and rotting.
Outside we had very strong snowstorms a week ago. I was closed in nursery for almost two days waiting when municipality will clean the roads. But after that weather changed to rain. Fortunately this morning was little frost and even some moments of sun allowing walk on fields without trouble to get drowned in mud. I took my mice poison bag and walked through fields and greenhouses placing poison tabs (at every such walk I’m using 150 tabs of poisoned food). On Crocus field I was shocked –finding huge amount of crocus shoots, remnants of corms etc. in one tube for poisons. I found “rodent restaurant”. Poisons must be renewed once a week but due snow cover I missed one case… Now I’m in great trouble – how to write new catalogue – how many crocus taxa I can include in it? Again outside started heavy snowing and everything is covered with two inches of snow. Still are snowing…
Few more pictures in second part.
Janis
01Crocus cambessedesii -01
02 Crocus cambessedesii -25.
03 Crocus caspius in December
04 Crocus caspius at start of November
05 Crocus kotschyanus HKEP-9205 -01
06 Crocus thomasii MS-978 -04
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It is heavy snowing outside and my trys to send additional pictures several times were interrupted - so I decided to send in one case few pics only hoping that they will go through.
Janis
07 Crocus veneris e Sixtus -03
08 Crocus veneris in 2007
10 Restaurant for rodents
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The last pair of pictures. the last blooming C. laevigatus - very dark form.
Janis
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Great photos of Crocus cambessedesii. What camera do you use?
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Janis,
It's great to see you in the forums...and get a look at your amazing plants. Nice to have you here...
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C. goulimyi – all forms and subspecies of it. I’m quite doubtful – is it worth to separate subsp. leucanthus. I saw during my visit in Peloponnese this autumn in every population great variation both in size and color – from almost white through bi-colored to very deep blue and larger and smaller blooms.
Janis - it appears that leucanthus is now regarded by Kew as a variety rather than a subspecies. See: Crocus November 2008; post no. 54 on November 10
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Janis
The dark Crocus laevigatus is stunning - nothing like it my collection of laevigatus.
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Once again Janis lovely plants and great photos Thank you
Ian
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Great photos of Crocus cambessedesii. What camera do you use?
I use Canon-50D with 100mm macro lense and other lenses, too.
Janis
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Welcome Janis !
My last flower for this year,
a possibly new species from Iran.
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Dirk, that's amazing :o
Can you give us more details regarding this Crocus?
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Oron,
i find this plant between seedlings from Crocus caspius, wild col.seed in 2004
more details next summer
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Janis,
C.caspius & C.laevigatus are superb 8)
Udo,
wow, very special! 8)
I'm anxious if it confirms to be a new species.
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Welcome Janis !
My last flower for this year,
a possibly new species from Iran.
How looks its corm tunics? Very unusual of course for Iran if it isn't mix in seeds.
Janis
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Welcome Janis !
My last flower for this year,
a possibly new species from Iran.
Black anther connective, multifid stigma. Very special. Of course there can be many unknown species in Iran. This spring I succeed to collect very unusual Crocus speciosus form in Iran. By Brian Mathew's opinion - new subspecies forming leaves in autumn. Would like to swap with yours.
Janis
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With all these first class croconuts and their famous photographs I hardly dare to add some pics of my one and only Crocus fleischeri here.
Pics were taken during opening inside
Gerd
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This spring I succeed to collect very unusual Crocus speciosus form in Iran. By Brian Mathew's opinion - new subspecies forming leaves in autumn.
Janis
A very handsome crocus, Janis. Lovely contrasting dark veining and feathering on that light blue background colour. 8)
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This spring I succeed to collect very unusual Crocus speciosus form in Iran. By Brian Mathew's opinion - new subspecies forming leaves in autumn.
Janis
A very handsome crocus, Janis. Lovely contrasting dark veining and feathering on that light blue background colour. 8)
From outside the background is almost white without small veins and it got my attention since the first bud seen.
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Gerd
I have never seen such a dark fleischeri before - very nice
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With all these first class croconuts and their famous photographs I hardly dare to add some pics of my one and only Crocus fleischeri here.
Pics were taken during opening inside
Gerd
It is superb fleischeri. The darkest what I saw you can see on attached pictures (pictured in Turkey, spring 2007).
Janis
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From outside the background is almost white without small veins and it got my attention since the first bud seen.
I'm not surprised - just as attractive in bud as open! 8) 8)
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Gerd
I have never seen such a dark fleischeri before - very nice
With all these first class croconuts and their famous photographs I hardly dare to add some pics of my one and only Crocus fleischeri here.
Pics were taken during opening inside
Gerd
It is superb fleischeri. The darkest what I saw you can see on attached pictures (pictured in Turkey, spring 2007).
Janis
Arthur, Janis,
It seems my camera added some additional blue when I photographed inside.
In reality the flower is nearly the same colour as the plant from Janis.
Gerd
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Gerd your Crocus fleischeri is well in advance of mine.
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From outside the background is almost white without small veins and it got my attention since the first bud seen.
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Hello Janis,
this nicely veined form of C. speciosus is suberb. :o Did you already gave (think of) a name?
In earlier postings we had difficulties to describe and show the distinct differences of various C. speciosus cultivars, especial due to the fact stock for sales are often mixed and crossbreeds with C.pulchellus appear. What you order is often not what you get. >:(
There remained many uncertainties and open questions to the forum members. ???
I have the hope you might have pictures of the "real" cultivars.
May I ask you to kindly post them for the croconuts as a reference?
Of interest certainly are
"The Conquerer"(blue),
"Artabir"(soft blue),
"Aitchisonii"(soft blue),
"Cassiope"(violet-blue),
"Oxonian"(dark violet blue)
"Aino"(deep violet blue,darker veins)
and
ssp. xantolaimos
If you have additional cultivars to show us - please feel free to post ;) :D
Hallo Gerd,
your C. fleischeri is a real beauty ;D
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I have the hope you might have pictures of the "real" cultivars.
May I ask you to kindly post them for the croconuts as a reference?
Why, Armin, you took the words from my mouth! Yes, Janis, can you show us these cultivars ?
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Yes pleaseeeeeeeeeee
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Stunning pictures everyone !! :o
What a great source of information this wonderful thread is prooving to be once more !
Thanks everyone !
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Janis,
Waht a beauty!!! Your crocus speciosus from Iran just astonished me and I am highly impressed. Thanks for posting the pics.
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I have the hope you might have pictures of the "real" cultivars.
May I ask you to kindly post them for the croconuts as a reference?
Why, Armin, you took the words from my mouth! Yes, Janis, can you show us these cultivars ?
Unfortunately I can show you only some of Crocus speciosus cultivars. Some 10-15 years ago I decided that my collection is too large (then it exceeded 2000 stocks – now it is more than 4500 stocks) and gave away to friends etc. most of foreign raised cultivars, leaving with me only my own breeds (partly) and wild species. Then Crocus collection was shortened for more than 100 names. With me left only very few cultivars, my real favourites. But now I’m growing around 700 different stocks of Crocuses.
All my Crocus cultivars then originated from 2 main sources – Ornamental plant research institute in Pruhonice (near Prague, Czech Republic) and from old, original Van Tubergen company which at that time still was run by Hoog’s family. Then stocks in this company with very few exceptions were true to name. There is publication in “Acta Pruhoniciana” vol. 33 (1975) E. Petrova. Pruhonicky sortiment krokusu v letech 1970 – 1974, 120 p. (in Czech language). Another is my book “Krokusi”, Riga, 1981, 175 p. (in Latvian). In both are descriptions of most cultivars cultivated at that time with RHS CC numbers. But, as you know, color can vary from weather, soil, temperature, light intensity (see 2 pictures of Crocus caspius, same plants – earlier under this topic).
So only few I can show you now on pictures.
Crocus speciosus Oxonian is the darkest one of all, main feature to separate it from others is deep purple flower tube, no other cultivars has such fl. tube. Unfortunately my stock is now only 2 corms (rodents!)
Very similar to it, if not identical, is cv. Aino distributed by Antoine Hoog. More about this you can read in my book Buried Treasures. I must compare both next autumn, too.
Very easy for separating is cultivar Pollux. It is one of the lightest, with flushed outside of outer petals and light yellow throat.
Cassiope has veining on outer petals outside, too. There are several very similar varieties, too. I kept Cassiope as the most floriferous here.
subsp. xantholaimos has deep yellow throat and are smaller in size, usually offered correct plants (Norman Stevens, Antoine Hoog – about other nurseries I don’t know)
Very similar to speciosus cultivars is C. pulchellus Zephyr which really is hybrid between both and better would be to list it between speciosus. It is fertile and seedlings splits in 4 groups. Greatest part is absolutely identical with Zephyr but more floriferous and vigorous than commercial stocks because it is virus-free. Now I’m growing under this name my own seedlings. There are many typical pulchellus and always few pure white typical pulchellus type and few speciosus type. My pulchellus alba originates just from Zephyr.
For your attention I add here picture of C. speciosus selected in wild (Armenia) by Zhirair and named ‘Cloudy Sky’. Of course it is true and pure speciosus but look on deep yellow throat and white anthers – using identification keys you can go only to pulchellus.
Janis
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Thank you very much Janis - this certainly shows that all previous discussions here on this subject are not surprising in view of the many, very small variations the species shows.
We're learning every day. :D
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Thank you Janis.
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Dear Janis,
Thanks a lot for such kind and detailed explanations. As Luc said: "We're learning everyday'.
Your 'Cassiope' looks really true to name. It looks sertainly as what I saw in J. Pennings catalogue, where 'Cassiope' was illustrated.
The crocus, which I receved under the name 'Cassiope' closely resembles your cultivar Pollux with its flushed outside of outer petals.
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Janis,
thank you for your prompt reply and all the crocus collectors background info you share with us.
I regret you almost lost "Oxonian" by rodents. I hope you can built-up again a good stock of it with the remaining 2 corms.
Your pictures of "Oxonian", "Cassiope" and "ssp. xantolaimos" are suberb references.
"Pollux" was not known to me but some I have in my garden resemble strongly to it. So, maybe this is popular version in dutch mixed stocks.
"Cloudy Sky" from Zhirair is stunning and adoring. Very fine and extraordinary.
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Janis,
thank you for your prompt reply and all the crocus collectors background info you share with us.
I regret you almost lost "Oxonian" by rodents. I hope you can built-up again a good stock of it with the remaining 2 corms.
Your pictures of "Oxonian", "Cassiope" and "ssp. xantolaimos" are suberb references.
"Pollux" was not known to me but some I have in my garden resemble strongly to it. So, maybe this is popular version in dutch mixed stocks.
"Cloudy Sky" from Zhirair is stunning and adoring. Very fine and extraordinary.
Really more or less correct naming of varieties started to stop before eighties of last century when Dutch bulbgrowers stopped selling own bulbs. Then companies splitted in growers and sellers. Many old famous companies sold their names to sellers who bought the name and LOOKED FOR CHEEPEST BULBS for selling to amateurs etc. by beautifully colored catalogues. Really now you can be happy if color will be the same what you ordered and great luck is to obtain correct variety. I have hundreds of stories and personal experience, too (especially from period when I few years bought in bulk Dutch grown lily bulbs for reselling in Latvia - only shipments from Bishoff-Tulleken lilies - not more exist - were mostly correctly named). Now some grower companies returns to selling without intermediates (Jan Pennings in Breezand is one of such samples) but again they are selling in "boxes" to companies which divide bulbs in small packets for supplying to private gardeners. And again - if some variety are sold out, it without notification can be replaced by similar.
Relating to Crocuses I unfortunately must to mention famous name in Crocus breeding - Willem van Eeden. He raised a lot of varieties and we were good friends. He simply explained to me, when I asked about appearance of two different, although very similar crocuses in one of his shipments to me - oh, they were too similar to keep them and I joined stocks (both varieties were registered). Later I got some of his Iris reticulata varieties. I found that stocks shipped in different years were slightly different - he explained - oh, they are siblings, one was sold out and you got another'- you can name it 'as.....'.
Other problem with Dutch grown crocuses (not only Crocuses, other small bulbs, too, Muscari especial) is that stocks are almost 100% virus infected. Not the terrible viruses killing plants, but a lot of so named symptom-less viruses or viruses affecting leaves, not flowers. Those viruses only reduce corm crop and size of blooms. But in combination with destroying viruses they increases damage and corms dies very soon.
Try to collect seeds of Large Dutch crocuses (C.vernus) and compare flowering intensity, size of flowers and corms of seedlings with mother plants - and you will see the difference.
This is the reason why I stopped all purchasing from Dutch nurseries and large seller-companies. Now I'm keeping contacts only with small companies who sells only own produced bulbs. The last my mistake was done in autumn 2007 when I felt under temptation to buy 100 corms of Crocus kotschyanus Albus. Got huge corms but only 1 bloomed in first autumn as C. speciosus. This autumn most gave those famous malformed 3-4 petalled blue flowers. Under this beautiful name appeared this famous Dutch grown kotschyanus stock which makes huge corms but never blooms - virus or genetic problem. All were dug out and went to fireplace. Janis
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It's true. From my experience I also can say with regert that 90% of Dutch stock of small bulbs are virus-infected, especially crocus stocks. The situation with spring crocuses is especially hopeless. For many years systematically I have been obtaining Dutch crocus vernus hybrids and trash them because of leaf mosaic virus. Though it is still possible to get healthy stock of autumn crocuses. The amount of healthy plants compared with virused ones among them is 50/50. Fore example, my crocus pulchellus 'Michael Hoog' of Dutch origin bloomed perfectly, but later when the leaves showed up, 3 out 5 were infected with virus mosaic of leaves. So I think that quarantining is very necessary for new-comers. After I clear the stock I don't have further problems with viruses at all.
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This is the reason why I stopped all purchasing from Dutch nurseries and large seller-companies. Now I'm keeping contacts only with small companies who sells only own produced bulbs.
Couldn't agree more whether they are bought directly or indirectly from sources in the UK I am fed up with receiving the wrong plants and/or them withering away. Had already taken the decision to only buy from bona fide growers or raise from seed - cuts out a lot of aggravation and disappointment :(
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My latest Crocus (from Kreta). It is very tiny - 10mm tall. Is it speciosum?
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Janis you have given us 'Crocunuts' some very important advice there, thank you.
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I guess Janis information just confirms what a lot of us have experienced in the past ... :'(
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My latest Crocus (from Kreta). It is very tiny - 10mm tall. Is it speciosum?
With white anthers, I would suggest possibly laevigatus
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My latest Crocus (from Kreta). It is very tiny - 10mm tall. Is it speciosum?
With white anthers, I would suggest possibly laevigatus
White anthers, yellow throat, nice outer markings... I'm think a very beautiful little C. laevigatus!
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My latest Crocus (from Kreta). It is very tiny - 10mm tall. Is it speciosum?
It is C. laevigatus.
Janis
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Why is it I can never keep enough information in my mind to accurately ID a species. Is it an age thing, or just lack of experience :-\
Just had to have a check on my spelling the spelling part of my brain seems to have gone on holiday today. Another age thing?
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Why is it I can never keep enough information in my mind to accurately ID a species. Is it an age thing, or just lack of experience :-\
Just had to have a check on my spelling the spelling part of my brain seems to have gone on holiday today. Another age thing?
4 minutes past four o'clock, David ::)
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;D ;D
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This reminds me of my first Crocus korolkowii that came from a Dutch supplier a few years ago. The corms were huge, flowered badly, broke down to small corms and have never flowered again.
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Mark,
This case is very familiar to me. It is a commercial trick. Most of the Dutch bulbs are applied with growth retardants. This is especially done for commercial purposes. The bulbs retain their commercial appearance for a longer period and can be kept longer in shop shelves, as they sprout later. They also bloom around 10-12 days later than ordinary bulbs. Besides, big bulbs often split into smaller ones and additional 2 years are necessary to grow them to the blooming size. So people buy again and again and sellers have a good profit out of it.
In USA there is a ridiculous term circling around bulb growers - perennial tulips. This tulips are supposed to come back readily and bloom successfully from year to year. But it is nonsense. Every tulip is a good perennial bloomer if taken a good care. People just don't know that the bulbs are applied with different chemicals. So it's a good trick to make a good profit.
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...The last my mistake was done in autumn 2007 when I felt under temptation to buy 100 corms of Crocus kotschyanus Albus. Got huge corms but only 1 bloomed in first autumn as C. speciosus. This autumn most gave those famous malformed 3-4 petalled blue flowers. Under this beautiful name appeared this famous Dutch grown kotschyanus stock which makes huge corms but never blooms - virus or genetic problem. All were dug out and went to fireplace. NO ONE DUTCH BULB IN MY GARDEN MORE!!! Sorry.
Janis
Janis,
I'm too a victim of this famous Dutch grown kotschyanus stock. >:(
That makes a bad reputation...
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All this information above is very interesting and important, lessons to be learned by us all.
It is true that the rogue sellers probably make huge profits at our expense but eventually we all get the message and refuse to buy any more so they do themselves damage. But I suppose the new buyers coming along fill any gaps that the several-times-bitten buyers leave in their margins. Such sellers are dishonest and hateful. I've sometimes wondered what was wrong with my crocus corms from the garden as they're always about a third the size of newly purchased (imported) corms. But mine flower freely every year while the big ones turn out to be rubbish.
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All this makes depressing reading but also makes me think I have been fortunate. During the last 3 years I've replaced a number of plants lost during a period of illness. Many of these have been Dutch imports. As far as I can tell none of the crocus has been virused. One was wrongly named & two large (& expensive) corms rotted immediately after flowering - something I have never experienced before. Dwarf Narcissus are a different matter along with Garden Centre Sternbergia lutea. A number of these have been very obviously virused.
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Lesley,
It's true, such sellers make a bad reputation. But from the other point of vew, many buyers, especially young gardeners or those who are not very deep in horticulture, when having bad experience with low quality bulbs, think it's their fault and they did something wrong.
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This reminds me of my first Crocus korolkowii that came from a Dutch supplier a few years ago. The corms were huge, flowered badly, broke down to small corms and have never flowered again.
In early eighties of last century I visited for the first time Holland and illegally (at that time of course) brought with me several cultivars of Crocus korolkowii raised by me. I gave them to a grower for checking and possible registering. To home I brought several of his chrysanthus/biflorus hybrids (then still unnamed) and for comparing Dutch grown C. korolkowii. It turned very week grower and flowered poorly, it was sterile and didn't give seeds, so after 2 years I destroyed stock. I got letter that my varieties are "nothing special" and not worth to grow. At start of Millennium I bought from him again few C. korolkowii as I wanted to compare flowers of Dutch and my stocks. I was very surprised when at spring it turned identical with my variety 'Dark Throat'. In ninety's I gave few corms of my crocus cultivars to Jan Pennings (Holland) and some of them now are grown in large quantities as "very special", between them C. korolkowii 'Lucky Number', too. Cv. of C. korolkowii 'Varzob' I think got some award from AGS.
Janis
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Crocus korolkowii 'Varzob', shown by Alan M. Edwards, from corms via Janis, was awarded a certificate of Preliminary Commendation by the RHS Rock Garden Plant Committee on 18th February 1997 at Vincent Square, London . See page 413, AGS Bulletin Volume 65 No. 4, December 1997.
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The last my mistake was done in autumn 2007 when I felt under temptation to buy 100 corms of Crocus kotschyanus Albus. Got huge corms but only 1 bloomed in first autumn as C. speciosus. This autumn most gave those famous malformed 3-4 petalled blue flowers. Under this beautiful name appeared this famous Dutch grown kotschyanus stock which makes huge corms but never blooms - virus or genetic problem. All were dug out and went to fireplace. Janis
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I would be ashamed to tell you how many times I have fallen for this one, too. In fact, I have never seen live Crocus kotschyanus 'Albus' and often wonder if there really is such a thing. This year I noticed that the bags on sale in local shops under this name contained annulate corms - that made me wonder if perhaps Crocus speciosus in a white-flowered form might have been substituted. But I kept my money and let them keep their crocuses.
Janis, when those crocus corms went to the fireplace, did you eat them after roasting them? Maybe that clone was bred to be a vegetable and not for flowering. Aren't some crocuses said to taste like chestnuts? ;D :o
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Janis, when those crocus corms went to the fireplace, did you eat them after roasting them? Maybe that clone was bred to be a vegetable and not for flowering
We went through a similar experience with "C. kotchyanus" many years ago - and we did try roasting and eating some of them, but they didn't taste of , not like chestnuts. Somewhere in one of my books it says that Greek shepherds roast and eat C. cancellatus corms like chestnuts - but if you read it carefully it says nothing about tasting like chestnuts!
I did have a very late C goulimyi try to flower in December, but the weather defeated it - not that cold, but vast amounts of rain. What worries me is that a lot of the spring bulbs in my frame and even outside are showing leaves much earlier than usual - maybe because of the mild fall here. Crocus abantensis, corsicus and baytopiorum in the frame and one of Janis' Tulips - T. humilis - all have tufts of leaves already.
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Crocus laevigatus 'Fontenayi'
The last of the autumn crocus here.
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Perfect, Gerry, rich colour and great markings :D
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Gerry
Another beautiful Crocus well taken. :)
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Maggi & Art - Thanks for your kind comments. I hope I can improve my photography in the New Year.
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Gerry
Just to show how good your photos are, I am posting some shots of crocus michelsonii taken in the bulb house in not very good light conditions. First time of flowering and very early.
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Arthur, thanks for that....yes, Gerry, see, your pix are super!
Mind you, Arthur, even though your illustrating the point with less than perfect pictures... we can still see what a gorgeous crocus it is..... isn't the feathering lovely?
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Maggi & Art - You are very kind, but I'm not satisfied with my pics. Art - you may think your pics are not so good but I wonder what I would have produced under similar conditions? Anyhow, apart from pic quality those C. michelsonii are just superb. From seed?
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My first winter flowering Crocus is out today. It's very small compared to what it should be probably due to the very poor light levels we have had this for most of this month. It's C. chrysanthus 'Uschak Orange'
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Great stuff Art and Gerry ! You're brightening these gloomy days !! :D
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The last my mistake was done in autumn 2007 when I felt under temptation to buy 100 corms of Crocus kotschyanus Albus. Got huge corms but only 1 bloomed in first autumn as C. speciosus. This autumn most gave those famous malformed 3-4 petalled blue flowers. Under this beautiful name appeared this famous Dutch grown kotschyanus stock which makes huge corms but never blooms - virus or genetic problem. All were dug out and went to fireplace. Janis
I would be ashamed to tell you how many times I have fallen for this one, too. In fact, I have never seen live Crocus kotschyanus 'Albus' and often wonder if there really is such a thing. This year I noticed that the bags on sale in local shops under this name contained annulate corms - that made me wonder if perhaps Crocus speciosus in a white-flowered form might have been substituted. But I kept my money and let them keep their crocuses.
Janis, when those crocus corms went to the fireplace, did you eat them after roasting them? Maybe that clone was bred to be a vegetable and not for flowering. Aren't some crocuses said to taste like chestnuts? ;D :o
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I just returned from Canary Islands - my first holidays without bulbs but with my wife in five years.
So, at first - I never tried crocus corms on my tooth, but I can tell you that tulip bulbs very early in season (before flowers open) are very juicy and sweet. Delicious...
For those who didn't see Crocus kotschyanus albus - it isn't legend, such plants really exist and to confirm I add here a two pictures (stock comes from my Belgium friend Hendrick van Bogaert).
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A few in flower today.
Crocus Sieberi Bowles white
Crocus Laevigata?(I hope.)
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Crocus Sieberi Bowles white
Crocus Laevigata?(I hope.)
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Superb laevigatus - especially for its dark stigmatic branches and brightest throat.
Janis
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Crocus Danfordiae yellow, very small flower
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Wow Michael ! Wonderful and early !!
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Michael,
Wow, that sieberi 'Bowles White' is striking!! Such strong contrasts. Beautiful pics as usual!! 8)
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I just returned from weekly check of my Crocus pots. Almost nothing new – still last blooms on cambessedesii, goulimyi, caspius, latest laevigatus and boryi. The best look has some C. biflorus melantherus pots - they seem not suffering from so dull weather and dark striped white buds looks very charming. In pots started blooming of some Crocus michelsonii stocks. In last years it is unusually late for this „spring bloomer” (in last 5 years it seems turned to autumn bloomer). Of course – flowers are only in buds. Weather is very dull, dark, wet, and cool. Every day are some snowing mixed with rain and my greenhouses are covered by snow as you can see on attached picture. I prefer to sit in front of fireplace and to drink some good wine. But... it would be nice if not plenty of urgent jobs. At first I’m taking of dead flowers on Crocuses, Colchicums, Cyclamens, Galanthus, Sternbergias (so late this season). Tomorrow I must to bring Christmas presents to my best friends (rodents) – nice pink colored tablets. Good appetite! And then back to paperwork, to order garden notes, to manuscript of new catalogue, to new book...
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OF YOU AND MANY NEW CROCUSES IN COMING NEW YEAR!
Yours sincerely
Janis
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Thanks Janis!
Here a real Christmas-Crocus,
Cr.aleppicus from N-Syria.
I wish all members a nice christmas and a happy and floriferous New Year.
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Great looking fire, Janis. Not many people have roaring fires like that anymore due to gas and oil fired central heating.
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thanks, Janis, you are giving us so much to look forward to .
Michael, the color contrasts in your crocus is really beautiful.
Nice to see Crocus aleppicus and C. danfordiae, too.
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A Crocus never flowered before at this time outside in my garden. Crocus ‘laevigatus late flowering form’ from Tony Goode. Thanks!
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As ever Franz your photo is superb
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I agree with Mark, Franz !!! Wonderful flowers and superbly photographed !!!
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And then back to paperwork, to order garden notes, to manuscript of new catalogue, to new book...
Yours sincerely
Janis
A new book? Oh wonderful. When?
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I have just received and email from Jānis Rukšāns saying that Crocus michelsonii 'Turkmenian Night' is virussed and he has now destroyed his stock. ??? Should anyone who has this stock and didnae ken, well ye ken noo. :(
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A Crocus never flowered before at this time outside in my garden. Crocus ‘laevigatus late flowering form’ from Tony Goode. Thanks!
I noticed mine coming into flower here today Franz! Glad you like it.
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I have just received and email from Jānis Rukšāns saying that Crocus michelsonii 'Turkmenian Night' is virussed and he has now destroyed his stock. ??? Should anyone who has this stock and didnae ken, well ye ken noo. :(
Ladies and Gentelmens, don't hurry with destroying of TURKMENIAN NIGHT - before that, check your plants! Can be that some corms were infected and some are still healthy. It is not a cheap plant to hurry with decision but plants on picture seen by me certainly were (look back in Forum)
Sincerely
Janis
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Janis,
crocus kotschyanis Albus is splendid! I am highly impressed!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Janis, here are two links to pictures of Crocus 'Turkmenian Night' in the Forum....
......here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=158.msg3277;topicseen#msg3277
and here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1286.msg30136;topicseen#msg30136
Can you tell us what the problem is.... I think many, like me, are just seeing a lovely flower.... how can we tell there is virus in such heavily marked petals? The leaves look fine.....????
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Re: C. michelsonii TURKMENIAN NIGHT. I checked pictures shown by Anthony Darby #82 from 16-Jan-07, msg 3277.
Enlarge pictures (but you can see it even without) and you will clearly see that petals are crimpled, uneven margin, irregular lighter stripes on petals. It is very typical virus infection on crocuses. Usually flowers didn't open completely, too.
Janis
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Thank you, Janis.
It is sometimes hard, is it not, to determine if suchdetails are symptoms of virus or a sign of some physical damage/stress to which the flower has been subjected ?
It's a hard life being a grower, eh?
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Still Re: C. michelsonii TURKMENIAN NIGHT.
Now checked Anthony's pictures from 2008. There flowers looks far better and if I would be seeing those, I wouldn't be writing to Anthony (I'm slowly going through all topics of New Forum starting from the first). But in any case I don't like petal margin in those, too although color and shape is far better. There are one problem with some viruses - if growing conditions are excellent, the symptoms can be hided and returning at bad conditions. This autumn I destroyed several stocks of C. oreocreticus, goulimyi Mani White (two stocks, third looked healthy - I never mix stocks of different origin, although it takes more job, more pots and space) and few others.
Janis
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The last "Crocus News" in going year. Today got back parcel with bulbs which I posted to USA 6-th of August. Where it travelled - don't know. Fortunately there were only few bulbs in it and for greatest surprise two item still were alive - Crocus korolkowii and Scilla siberica. All others were died - dried out Corydalis, Anemone, Scilla rosenii. But those two - champions in surviving still were living (crosscutting confirmed it).
Janis
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Today was a lovely day, 12C, with no rain. Looking around my pots I see Crocus coming up fast. Showing colour through ?sheaths include chrysanthus 'Sunspot', chrysanthus with black tubes, various chrysanthus, michelsonii, korolkowii, a few with lost labels and a few autumn floweres still producing flowers.
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You out and about in shorts today Mark? We had 10oC.
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Thank you, Janis.
It is sometimes hard, is it not, to determine if suchdetails are symptoms of virus or a sign of some physical damage/stress to which the flower has been subjected ?
It's a hard life being a grower, eh?
Maggi,
the best way to determine virus from physical damage among suspicious samples, is keeping those plants for one more year. In case of physical damage the symptoms should disappear in the next season.
As you might knoticed, I take a great attention to virus deceases, so conduct studies and make experiments. During my crocus growing experience I observed the following virus types and symptoms on them:
1. colour breaking virus - alien stripes on flowers, which are not distorted, leaves are healthy;
2. unknown virus I - flowers are distorted, sometimes there can be also alien stripes on flowers (but its not always so), leaves are healthy;
3. unknown virus II - (this applies to mostly white and sometimes other-coloured varieties) - flowers look somewhat transparent as if polished, the surface of petals usually is not smooth, leaves are healthy:
4. virus mosaic - (most common) flowers are perfect without any signs of distortion or alien stripes, leaves are not healthy - darker stripes on them;
5. combined virus - virus mosaic of leaves plus any types of virus mentioned above.
I attache the picture of cr. salzmanii 'El Torcal' infected with unknown virus II.
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2. unknown virus I - flowers are distorted, sometimes there can be also alien stripes on flowers (but its not always so), leaves are healthy;
3. unknown virus II - (this applies to mostly white and sometimes other-coloured varieties) - flowers look somewhat transparent as if polished, the surface of petals usually is not smooth, leaves are healthy:
It seems that yours viruses unkn.#1 & 2 is the same - RATTLE VIRUS. Few years ago in Holland was edited marvellous book on bulb diseases in two volumes. There are excellent pictures to help identifying problems. Unfortunately it is in Dutch. Crocus volume I gave to my friend who is translating it for me. The other volume I can't to find in my bookshelf now so I can't give you for a moment exact references. I will do it when I will order a little my books again.
Janis
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Janis,
Thanks for your comments. It's quite hard to find a good literature on bulb diseases with detailed descriptions of all virus types. I am sure the unknown viruses I described have other origin than the common virus diseases, but I didn't know the names. Thanks a lot and I'll be very grateful for any other further information.
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Zhirair, Janis, I must echo those words....."Thanks a lot and I'll be very grateful for any other further information" ...... this is most instructive.
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I also greatly appreciate the information - Thanks!
Does Rattle virus relate to the plants that in England we call rattles ie Rhinanthus species?
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Dear friends,
I want to give you some small Christmas present – some slides of one of my going year trips to picture Crocuses. I went to Crimea where 5 Crocus species are growing, from those 2 autumn flowering. This autumn my target was Crocus speciosus – because trip was only 3 days long together with my Ukrainian friend Dmitriy. The second – Crocus pallasii I left for next autumn. Really I hoped to find white one speciosus, but didn’t succeed. And all my friends living in C. speciosus area reported to me that they never saw such (covered Crimea, Russian Caucasus, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan). Unfortunately weather was not with me, the day on Tschatir-dag yaila was cloudy, rainy, so all crocus flowers were closed. Fortunately on morning when we were ready to left yaila clouds were gone and bright sun greeted us. So we had a pair of hours to catch some pictures. C. speciosus there growth mostly at carst depressions where some shade by trees and shrubs are provided (pict.01). We found another species, too – it was spring bloomer C. tauricus – at first we found “footprints” of it by sheet remnants at rodent restaurants which confirmed that C. tauricus prefers open places (pict.06). By seed pod I dug out one corm which showed how old they can be on yaila (pict.07). Excellent surprise was discovering of small population (some 200-300 sq.m.) of Sternbergia colchiciflora (pict.08-10). It is quite rare in Crimea and Dima never before found it. Fortunately it keeps blooms open even in rainy weather. We walked all the day crossing yaila and nowhere found another one spot of it. Crimean population can to bloom underground and you can see plants only in spring when leaves and self-pollinated seedpods come out. I got report from Krasnodar district (Russia) about same. All my previous stocks originate from Turkey and they are “normal” blooming. It will be very interesting to compare those. Sternbergia colchiciflora is the single species successfully growable outside here as leaves are formed in spring only. Sternbergia candida can be grown outside here, too but it is not safe.
NICE CHRISTMAS EVE FOR YOU ALL!
Janis
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Lovely Colchicum. My plants never look like that.
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Lovely Colchicum. My plants never look like that.
It is STERNBERGIA, Mark. Not Colchicum.
Janis
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oops, sorry. My Sternbergia dont look like that. They are always small and seem to begin flowering below ground.
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Dmitriy,
has shown crocus pallassi pictures to me, which he found this year and I was very impressed by it form (very different and nicer in shape, than Turkish ones) and beauty. The white one just knocked me out.I will ask Dmitriy to post the pics in this forum as well.
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We have had a couple of hours of sun and some of the crocus have opened. I have decided the third is laevigatus after some deliberation.It has white anthers but the flower is minute.
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Tony - that C.cyprius is a real little bobby-dazzler (as we used to say in Yorkshire).
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Wonderful shots Tony and Janis !
Thanks a lot for showing them !
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Gerry thanks they are variable but all very nice. Not one I find easy,but that could be said for lots of things
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Tony are the outer petals black?
Over night little black slugs have been having an early Christmas by eating many of my Crocus flowers. Worst affected are chrysanthus, chrysanthus 'Goldmine' and chrysanthus 'Sunspot'. The damage was done even though I have pellets down.
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Tony is C. cyprius backed with black?
Mark I am sorry I do not know what you mean by this. Enlighten me and I will try to answer.
Its no use boasting about your little black slugs,I have them to die for. I am going to use the liquid slug killer,it stops them moving and dries them up. I think they ignore the pellets which just seem okay for the larger ones of which I also have many
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I reworded the query. Are the outer petals of C. cyprius black?
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No they are dark purple if you let the sun shine on them but they do appear black particularly in a photgraph.
Here are two views of another pot of them
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Tony,
Wow!! If only it were possible to trade with you. Those cyprius are VERY speccy!! (short for special/spectacular, in case anyone is wondering)
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I agree with Paul. Very nice.
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Marcus has C. cyprius Paul. He sent me one last summer.
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But do his cyprius have those dark markings? I for some reason thought that cyprius normally wasn't dark on the outside like that... sounds like I am thinking of something else?
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Mathew in 'The Crocus' states,heavily stained violet on the exterior. I have seen hundreds in the wild and this is a common characteristic. The illustration in the book bears no resemblance to the actual plant.
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I hope this Crocus is correct. I noticed it yesterday among my pots that are outside. Reading Tony's Crocus pages he says it needs a dry summer rest and winter protection both of which I havent given it.
C. cancellatus lycius
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Sometime I'm feeling that I'm living somewhere halfway to down under. I still must to wait few months till spring blooming crocuses really will start blooming. Attached pictures of Crocus cyprius are maid 4th of March (I think in 2004). Even those are pictured in greenhouse.
Janis
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I hope you're enjoying Christmas even without crocus, Janis. I was in my greenhouse just now and noticed the shoots of Crocus 'Yalta' starting to show - a crocus I've wanted to have and flower for quite a while. Not long to wait now. Not a rare species, I know, but I loved the pictures in the catalogue. The latest corydalis purchases are also showing fat shoots. 'Foundling' has very, very fat buds!
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'Yalta' is selected by me from seedlings grown up under name C. tommasinianus. Now it is grown in large numbers by Dutch company Jan Pennings in Breezand.
Janis
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Here is Crocus korolkowii 'Mountains Glory', which opened today in the kitchen.
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We have had a couple of hours of sun and some of the crocus have opened. I have decided the third is laevigatus after some deliberation.It has white anthers but the flower is minute.
Tony,
Do you grow these four species shown, under same conditions?
I try to understand if species from high altitudes such as C. cyprium that blooms after snow melts [as in the case of C. anataliensis, adanensis and others] need this cold treatment in order to flower?
Any how it blooms early then in its natural habitat and i guess it didn't get a cold period??.
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I hope this Crocus is correct. I noticed it yesterday among my pots that are outside. Reading Tony's Crocus pages he says it needs a dry summer rest and winter protection both of which I havent given it.
C. cancellatus lycius
Perhaps I should have said prefers rather than needs ... we are all here to learn :)
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A Merry Christmas to all!
Tony, Janis
your white & blue C. cyprius are very desirable. As a typical winter bloomer (wet winter/spring - dry summer rest) I suppose it is more suited for a green house rather then for outside open garden cultivation.
Any recommendations/experiences with outside cultivation?
Mark,
your cancellatus lycius is lovely and maybe harder then expected ;).
Janis,
you mentioned in the "christmas present" C.tauricus? The picture of the corm form is unusual and I don't know this species by name yet.
Is it just recently discovered or is the name a synonym I'm not aware? ::)
Can you kindly post a picture? More info please ;)
I purchased "Yalta" this autumn from a dutch reseller in order to compare it with a crocus I purchased 3years ago under C.vernus ssp. vernus - a form resembling "Yalta". Do you know if "Yalta" was earlier distributed under C.vernus ssp. vernus?
If not - anyway I'll find out in spring if they are the same :P
I like them very much!
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But do his cyprius have those dark markings? I for some reason thought that cyprius normally wasn't dark on the outside like that... sounds like I am thinking of something else?
The one Marcus sent to me certainly did. It was a treasure.
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Mine are all grown in small clay pots plunged in sand on a bench in the greenhouse. The four I showed are all early to flower. A lot of others are coming through and it is a bit of a strange season in that some of each species are at a different stage to others. We need some cold to slow them down.
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Thanks Tony,
Can you tell the temperature level [day&night] in your greenhouse during winter?
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Crocus cyprius I'm growing only in greenhouse (unheated) but covered with 2 layers of long-lasting polyethylene (my first greenhouse now are staying 12 years and still useful). Here certainly impossible outside. In January synoptics offer over all Europe minus 25 C. But in my greenhouse they withstood even minus 30 in February.
Crocus tauricus was described by Latvian botanist Puring working in Crimea I suppose that at end of XIX century (I'm not certain about date). Brian included it under C. biflorus adamii, but he is not right in this case. At personal communication he explained that he saw only herbarium specimens. So - one feature you noted - it is very special tooth on basal ring edge. I don't know any other with such and I saw most of biflorus crocuses (very few new taxa only not). On picture you can see two other features - first - color of flowers - very special blue shade but it is very variable from almost pure white to unstriped violet but allways keeping the special shade characteristic only to this species. The second is leaf color - they are bluish-grayish-green. Such leaves has only one another biflorus group crocus - I think, that alexandrii (but possibly I'm wrong, I haven't here papers to check). In any case difference is far greater than between pulchricolor and taurii. If we separate wattiorum and nerimaniae from other biflorus complex, then tauricus is worth of independent name, too (or at least as subsp. of biflorus, although I personally don't like this merging of most annulate crocuses under chap of biflorus).
YALTA - was distributed earlier only by me and allways as C. tommasinianus x. On wholesale scale it is now grown only by Jan Pennings in Breezand. He is growing several of my Crocus, Muscari, Tulipa species hybrids etc. on large scale.
Janis
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I'm using some break in work with my new catalogue to explain some information from earlier discussions on Forum this year. There was long discussion about two crocuses - Crocus gargaricus and herbertii.
You all are right - both are inseparable looking only on flower. Possibly gargaricus has a bit larger and deeper orange flowers than herbertii but such feature isn't usable for separating taxa.
But when you will compare corms of both, you immediately will see the differences. And they are not only in stoloniferous habit of herbertii (see attached picture made on Ulu-Dag this spring) and non-stoloniferous of gargaricus. Corms of Crocus gargaricus (Kaz-dag) are larger in size and coarsely reticulated. Those of herbertii (Ulu-dag) are much smaller, makes a lot of stolones forming at end very small grains (they need only 1 year to grow up to flowering size, rarely two) and most important - tunics are finely fibrous reticulated only at top. Soon must be publication from Brian Mathew about this marvellous Crocus.
I like both of them, although herbertii is hardier, can grow outside without replanting for many years and spreads in garden even without special attention (in nursery can be even pleasant "weed" although not easy for business just for small size of corms). Gargaricus I tried only under cover.
Janis
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Janis
Very interesting what you say about Crocus gargaricus sub species, I have grown Crocus gargaricus ssp herbertii for years as you say it wanders gently around the garden beds - I have never managed to get hold of ssp. gargaricus.
I have recently read a new phylogeny of Crocus which shows that the two so called sub species of Crocus gargaricus are not at all closely related showing the closest relatives to ssp herberti being C. leichtlinii and C. kerndorffiorum while ssp gargaricus is related to C. speciosus, cancelleatus and angustiflolius among others.
Quite fascinating to see how most of the work Brian Mathew and others have done holds up very well and is reinforced by this modern study with only a few very unexpected relationships like the one Janis has shown above.
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Ian,
It only confirms how difficult is seperating of species. I'm absolutely sure that under name Crocus chrysanthus are hided several species, too. Look on chromosome numbers only. So much discused USCHAK ORANGE I suppose is the single one with only 2n=8. But how you can verify your plants without checking of chromosomes - it isn't possible for amateur gardener.
Janis
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I have recently read a new phylogeny of Crocus which shows that the two so called sub species of Crocus gargaricus are not at all closely related showing the closest relatives to ssp herberti being C. leichtlinii and C. kerndorffiorum while ssp gargaricus is related to C. speciosus, cancelleatus and angustiflolius among others.
Ian - it would be very useful if you could give a reference for this. Many thanks.
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Ian - it would be very useful if you could give a reference for this. Many thanks.
A phylogeny of the genus Crocus (Iridaceae) based on the sequence data from five plastid regions.
Gitte Petersen, Ole Seberg, Sara Thorsoe, Tina Jorgensen & Brian Mathew.
Published In TAXON 57 (2)
Publisher: International Association for Plant Taxonomy
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/iapt/tax/2008/00000057/00000002/art00010
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Ian I can let you have ssp gargaricus if you want it.
Oron I have two greenhouses for crocus,one in shade and one in the open. During the winter we do not usually get lower than -5 and then not before January and it only lasts a few days. This year however we had two weeks at freezing or just below at the end of November/early December.Usually it is dull and cloudy and many crocus pop up and fall over without opening. Maximum temperature is different. On a sunny day in January the temperature in the house in the sun can reach 30c easily and one January at 2pm was 38c and at 5.30 when the sun went in had fallen to -3c.Not easy for the plants
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Ian - many thanks for the reference.
Gerry
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Crocus tauricus was described by Latvian botanist Puring working in Crimea I suppose that at end of XIX century (I'm not certain about date).
Original description made by
Crocus biflorus var. tauricus Trautv., Bull. Cl. Phys.-Math. Acad. Imp. Sci. Saint-Pétersbourg 17: 329 (1859).
Later altered in range by Puring
Crocus tauricus (Trautv.) Puring, Trudy Bot. Sada Imp. Yur'evsk. Univ. 1: 194 (1900).
Sincerely
Janis
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Here's a link to what I have as Crocus korolkowii 'Mountains Glory', but perhaps should be 'Mountain Glory'. If it splits I will try some in the garden. http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.paghat.com/images/crocosmountain_midjan.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.paghat.com/crocusmountainsglory.html&usg=__EPdEM4CJOkimBZbbzs5h6zeY0PI=&h=325&w=266&sz=20&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=dgRIAhNKqj2GcM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=97&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcrocus%2Bkorolkowii%2Bmountains%2Bglory%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
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Janis,
thank you for you honest answer regarding C. cyprius cultivation. Remaining a bid sad, I will refrain from trying it in my open garden.
Thanks for the background info on C.tauricus and the marvellous pictures. They show nice markings and color variation within the species.
Is it/will it be available sonner or later for us croconuts to purchase?
Finally thanks regarding notes on "Yalta". I'm exited to compare both forms in spring.
Ian,
the taxonomical obscurities / difficulties in determing of species in genus "crocus" remains a thrilling issue. :P Thanks for the link.
Anthony,
the KAVB list them as "Mountains Glory". Registrant J.R. ;) ;D
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Anthony,
the KAVB list them as "Mountains Glory". Registrant J.R. ;) ;D
Thanks Armin. That means I don't have to change the label. ;D
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Here's a link to what I have as Crocus korolkowii 'Mountains Glory', but perhaps should be 'Mountain Glory'. If it splits I will try some in the garden. http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.paghat.com/images/crocosmountain_midjan.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.paghat.com/crocusmountainsglory.html&usg=__EPdEM4CJOkimBZbbzs5h6zeY0PI=&h=325&w=266&sz=20&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=dgRIAhNKqj2GcM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=97&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcrocus%2Bkorolkowii%2Bmountains%2Bglory%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
I named it 'Mountains Glory'. It is good increaser and up to winter 05/06 (or 06/07) I grew it only outside. That winter most of crocuses seriously suffered from -30 C coming in February completely without snow. Really crocuses bloomed in January. It was too hard for them. From C. korolkowii cultivars really didn't suffer only 'Lucky Number'. From others - heuffelianus, malyi, cvijicii.
Janis
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Thanks for the background info on C.tauricus and the marvellous pictures. They show nice markings and color variation within the species.
Is it/will it be available sooner or later for us croconuts to purchase?
I must to see how develops its seedlings, I'm planing to include them in catalogue 2010 or 2011. In nineties I had more than 500 corms and lost all from rodent attack. Left 2-3 corms from which I slowly raised up the stock again. I had even named varieties of C. tauricus lost in same way. In the same winter I lost ~ same number of C. biflorus adamii from Tbilisi, Georgia - for same reason. It was very special form described by Georgian botanists as species, but in 2007 when I again visited same spot - it was under buildings, grazed lawn and paved footpasses.
Janis
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Not very original but always fine and early flowering, Crocus sieberi Bowle's White
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They look great Dominique - you seem to have some sun as well !
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This one appeared in my cold frame in a pot of "lost corms" about 10 days ago, but it was too cold for it to open out there and I brought it in on Christmas Day. I've been too busy with "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" until now to get around to dealing with the picture. I think it must be a rather late C. speciosus 'Albus' - nothing exciting. (I still have some C. laevigatus in bud stage too.)
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Sun today at last after mild, overcast weather. However temperatures stayed low so crocus were reluctant to open.
Crocus adanensis
C. baytopiorum – many thanks Anne :-*
C. imperati ssp. imperati ‘De Jager’
C. vitellinus
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Ashley your plants are well ahead of mine
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This one appeared in my cold frame in a pot of "lost corms" about 10 days ago, but it was too cold for it to open out there and I brought it in on Christmas Day. I've been too busy with "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" until now to get around to dealing with the picture. I think it must be a rather late C. speciosus 'Albus' - nothing exciting. (I still have some C. laevigatus in bud stage too.)
Yellow throat is not typical for C speciosus. Are any leaves present? Might be niveus if so .... but I doubt it as you know your crocuses Howard!
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Ian - it would be very useful if you could give a reference for this. Many thanks.
A phylogeny of the genus Crocus (Iridaceae) based on the sequence data from five plastid regions.
Gitte Petersen, Ole Seberg, Sara Thorsoe, Tina Jorgensen & Brian Mathew.
Published In TAXON 57 (2)
Publisher: International Association for Plant Taxonomy
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/iapt/tax/2008/00000057/00000002/art00010
Ian,
Many thanks for your help with article about new phylogenetic tree of Crocuses.
It cleared some of my doubts about interrelations between Crocus species and raised more questions. Unfortunately the authors still didn't finished job and still much more researches on molecular level must be done to make new system. On other hand - it confirmed my opinion that gardeners in such complicated group as Crocus need some different, more easy grouping system than botanists. When we compare Bowles' grouping in his Handbook with Brian's in his monograph, we can see that species identification is easier in Bowles version (although now out of date). Now we can much easier to understand why some species are making hybrids so easy and some not. Unfortunately only two samples of C. chrysanthus were checked and C. flavus dissectus didn't included. Hope that authors will continue researches ending with new system.
Another article about Sternbergias forwarded to me by Ian was very useful for me, too.
During visit to Greece I was confused because couldn't identify undoubtedly Sternbergias - one clump seemed to be sicula, another lutea and between them a lot of intermediates. Greuteriana I know only by plants got from other growers and in my collection they looked different from lutea/sicula, only one of last acquisitions got under name sicula I renamed as greuteriana this autumn. But all this "carousel" with stocks as lutea angustifolia etc. now is clarified. So really possibly the best would be to regard them as garden forms of one species. Still not so certain about greuteriana but it is for too little knowledge about its variation range. Extremes of course are very different.
Janis
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The sun came out today and opened the flowers on a couple of the crocus pots.
Crocus baytoporium 1
Crocus baytoporium 2
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Great pictures Ashley and Michael, I keep going back to the C. adanensis. I have seedlings coming along but won't be flowering size for years. I am amazed how much farther along you guys across the pond are. My baytopiorums are just coming out of the ground as well as many other spring bloomers.
Jim
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This one appeared in my cold frame in a pot of "lost corms" about 10 days ago, but it was too cold for it to open out there and I brought it in on Christmas Day. I've been too busy with "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" until now to get around to dealing with the picture. I think it must be a rather late C. speciosus 'Albus' - nothing exciting. (I still have some C. laevigatus in bud stage too.)
Crocus speciosus ALBUS has yellow throat, but style is multifid. See picture.
Janis
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Great pictures Ashley and Michael, I keep going back to the C. adanensis.
I hope Ashley will give us another photos when those c. adanensis flowers open !!
I love all these Crocus pictures... such photogenic little flowers - I am addicted, and I don't care!
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Thanks for the background info on C.tauricus and the marvellous pictures. They show nice markings and color variation within the species.
Is it/will it be available sooner or later for us croconuts to purchase?
I must to see how develops its seedlings, I'm planing to include them in catalogue 2010 or 2011. In nineties I had more than 500 corms and lost all from rodent attack. Left 2-3 corms from which I slowly raised up the stock again. I had even named varieties of C. tauricus lost in same way. In the same winter I lost ~ same number of C. biflorus adamii from Tbilisi, Georgia - for same reason. It was very special form described by Georgian botanists as species, but in 2007 when I again visited same spot - it was under buildings, grazed lawn and paved footpasses.
Janis
Thanks Janis,
I hope you have attacks from rodents under control for this winter season :o
It is always painful and annoying if such backstrokes happen.
And it is quite frustrating to realize another "species paradise" has become a victim of human activities :'(
Unfortunately this happens to often...
Dom,
"Bowles White" always is a pleasure for my eyes :D
Ashley,
nice selection you show us. I keep my fingeres crossed for more sunshine so you can take more great shots from open flowers to post here! ;) :D
Michael,
C. baytoporium is lovely and has this fine pale mineral blue color. 8)
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The sun came out today and opened the flowers on a couple of the crocus pots.
Crocus baytoporium 1
Crocus baytoporium 2
Wonderful baytopiorum Michael; that first picture in particular is magnificent :o
You must give them excellent light to keep the tubes so short and strong.
More murk here today so no chance of any crocus opening. Being in 9x9 cm pots most have rooted through into the sand bed and I'm reluctant to disturb them for the sake of taking 'kitchen windowsill' pictures.
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I'm still thinking of the girl with the dragon tattoo. I have had an email with a bloke with the dragon tattoo, but that another story, and you'd certainly not want to see it rear its ugly head! :P
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Crocus speciosus ALBUS has yellow throat, but style is multifid. See picture.
Janis
Janis, I also noticed the soft yellow touch in the throat of speciosus Albus, but this is
just the yellow of style and anthers, reflecting in the white throat. If you remove both
from the flower the yellow in the throat will disappear.
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Very observant Thomas. It's the same with some 'orange' snowdrops
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No Thomas, Mark, you are not right. Crocus speciosus albus has light yellow throat as well as some other cultivars and many wild forms. It isn't reflex from style and anthers. Some speciosus forms in wild has white anthers, too. So, using only traditional keys and without knowledge as true species must to look, you can't tell what is in front of you - speciosus or pulchellus. I well remember how problematic it was for me 40 years ago without literature and having only Zephyr as sample of pulchellus.
Janis
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Can someone tell me the difference between Crocus laevegatus dark form and the late form? My dark form has, over the last few days, produced more flowers than it did during the autumn.
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Janis - thank you for helping us to understand better. The comments about variability in wild populations are just what we need. As I am often an 'armchair botanist' the experience of someone like yourself is invaluable. Another forumist (Zhirair) has found C speciosus in Armenia which looks like hybrids with C pulchellus but must also be within the variation that you report.
Now I must consult the recent crocus paper to discover is C speciosus and C pulchellus still stand as seperate species ;)
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Mark,
Those names for laevigatus "late form", "dark form" are only nicknames for clones. There can be dark flowers between early blooming plants as well as between late bloomers etc. Crocus laevigatus is extremely variable both by color (although light forms dominated in populations seen by me) and by flowering time - starting in late autumn (here) and going through winter up to very early spring (depending from temperatures).
Janis
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Janis - thank you for helping us to understand better. The comments about variability in wild populations are just what we need. As I am often an 'armchair botanist' the experience of someone like yourself is invaluable. Another forumist (Zhirair) has found C speciosus in Armenia which looks like hybrids with C pulchellus but must also be within the variation that you report.
Now I must consult the recent crocus paper to discover is C speciosus and C pulchellus still stand as separate species ;)
Of course both are different species but just Zhirairs speciosus from Armenia from where pulchellus is in thousands of km distance, shows how wide can be borders of species and that not allways you can use keys for identification. I'm not mentioning here albinos. I couldn't image how to separate white C. chrysanthus forms from white biflorus - the shade softer? Possibly some of you know?
Nice last day of Old Year and Happy NEW YEAR!
Janis
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Janis you look so cool in your photo dressed in white with a glass of red wine
This is my Crocus in question. The close up was taken two weeks ago
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Janis you look so cool in your photo dressed in white with a glass of red wine
This is my Crocus in question. The close up was taken two weeks ago
Mark,
Picture is made in Greece, Monemvasia, beautifull evening rest after a day in mountains this autumn. But glass of red wine is my usual end of day. It helps against Parkinson and Alcheimer diseases (so I'm explaining to my wife).
My darkest laevigatus (and one of latest, too) you can see on page one, third entry on this topic.
Looks quite similar to yours, possibly same clone only yours stock is larger than mine.
Sincerely
Janis
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Reminiscent of a Keith Floyd pose. Just need The Stranglers playing 'Looking at the peaches'. :D
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Yellow throat is not typical for C speciosus. Are any leaves present? Might be niveus if so .... but I doubt it as you know your crocuses Howard!
I've only just got back to looking at this thread. I was too preoccupied with various other things, but I've now finished the book and played with all my new toys! I didn't look it up at all, just guessed on the basis of what I thought it might be! I did have a pot of C. niveus seedlings once, but thought I'd lost them. It had leaves about 4 cm high at flowering, which is clearly not typical of speciosus albus and now I've looked in Mathew I have to agree with Tony and Janis. Thanks. I'm pleased to have it - must mark it's position in the pot before I forget. (I'm not that much of an expert Tony - my range of experience is rather limited to the few species that are hardy here and what I can fit into my tiny frame.)
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A very handsome pot of C. laevigatus Mark !
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Reminiscent of a Keith Floyd pose. Just need The Stranglers playing 'Looking at the peaches'. :D
Now I understand it gives you cancer! My friend cannot have butter,too much colesterol and he is eighty six. Better to have lived a little I think.
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Can someone tell me the difference between Crocus laevegatus dark form and the late form? My dark form has, over the last few days, produced more flowers than it did during the autumn.
One's dark and the other's late Mark. ;D
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;D ;D ;D Nearly fell off my chair Lesley!!!!
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someone is quick this first dayof the new year
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Even quicker Mark. It's Jan 2nd here. ;D