Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Flowers and Foliage Now => Topic started by: Lesley Cox on October 02, 2008, 01:36:32 AM
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Luit,
You certainly have SCILL with you Scillas ;)
But are Scillas Skillas. I assume they are sillas, as in science, scent and sceptre. Are the Scilly Isles Skilly Isles?
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Scilly question Lesley. ::)
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Scilly question Lesley. ::)
SARKy answer Anthony? ;D
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Far from being an expert in latin I would say that in Swedish they are pronounced skilla as in skill and presumably also in Danish. Whether it is correct or not I do not know but I will not change my way of pronounce it anyway.
Lovely picture every one.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Scilly question Lesley. ::)
SARKy answer Anthony? ;D
Or even : a Sercquiais remark?
Whatever, with the weather we're getting at the moment the more sarks the better, Lesley!
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This is a very interesting question about pronunciation of Latin names. It's OK, that every nation says it in his way. But what happens at an international conference? I never attended one, so I would be curious. How do others understand, If I say Scilla like a Hungarian word??? The Latin is used to understand everybody what are talking about. But if everybody pronounce it in his own way, I think it is a kind of Babel again... ::)
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Kathrine,
I found exactly that problem when I visited Otto, Fermi, Tim, Lesley etc in Victoria a few weeks ago. Most of my knowledge of names is through reading them, so I in a lot of cases have never heard them said. The people I visited all talked amongst themselves all the time, so they had the same pronunciations..... whereas I didn't have a clue what they were talking about in some cases. I can only imagine what an international conference must be like. :o
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Kata is not "sc" in Hungarian pronounced very different from either skill or science. I just can not remember how. That may sound very different. :)
Kind regards
Joakim
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Kata is not "sc" in Hungarian pronounced very different from either skill or science. I just can not remember how. That may sound very different. :)
Kind regards
Joakim
My wife tells me s in Hungarian is a sort of sh sound and c is a sort of ts sound, so very different to English pronunciation.
I would have thought that botanists, for example, at an international gathering would try as much as possible to use 'classical' Latin pronunciation, as the ancient Romans would have pronounced it, which gives consistent pronunciation whatever your nationality.
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It was interesting that on our first visit to Germany and not speaking German we thought that at least we would have the pronunciation of the plants names in common.How wrong we were,it took days to get used to it as the names were usually lost somewhere in the sentence.We solved it by pointing to a plant,giving our version and being laughed at.
Martin how do we know how the Romans spoke 2000 years ago? This is a serious question. I have often wondered about this since becoming interested in gardening and meeting 'plant experts' who always know the correct pronunciation and say this is how Latin should be spoken.
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...and dont forget : not all are latin names - some are of greek orgin ! ;D
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...and dont forget : not all are latin names - some are of greek orgin ! ;D
I did think about that, but I believe the vast majority of plant names are latin. And those that are derived from Greek should be I suppose be pronounced according to Greek pronunciation, for which there are of course modern day pronunciation guides.
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Martin how do we know how the Romans spoke 2000 years ago? This is a serious question. I have often wondered about this since becoming interested in gardening and meeting 'plant experts' who always know the correct pronunciation and say this is how Latin should be spoken.
The 'proper' classical way to pronounce Latin is as taught in schools. Exactly how they worked out what pronunciations were in Roman times I don't know exactly, but I understand it was through writings from the time (in Latin and other languages) about the language itself, from which Latin scholars were able to glean how words were pronounced.
Apparently quite a few pronunciations have changed since I learned Latin. My son has been learning Latin for the last couple of years at secondary school, and it seems that further study of writings from Roman times have provided better clues to pronunciation, so that some words are now spoken quite differently to in my school days - just as current scholarly thinking has changed the way we're supposed to pronounce the name of Queen Boadicea (which I learned as Boadisseea but is apparently now pronounced Boadicca!)
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Historians still argue on both how to spell and to pronounce Boudica (one example!) which can be pronounced 'Boo-di-ka' The name stems from the Celtic language (nearest present day equivalent being Welsh). This was the language spoken by the majority of the indigenous peoples of this Island prior to the Saxons adding a Germanic element, which with old Norse developed into Old English . Wales was never conquered by the Saxons.
In the Celtic tongue, Boudica, whichever way you spell it, translates as 'victory' or Victoria in modern English.
How do I remember all this stuff when I'm hard pressed to remember which day it is? ;D
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Martin
Interesting but I wonder if a Roman from the north could understand one from the south and which one thought they pronounced the words in the correct way. I know we pronounce words correctly in Manchester and that everbody else is just not up to the mark. Up here glass rhymes with ass but I understand in the south it rhymes with arse. (I hope that is allowed with Maggie being away, the spell check thinks its okay)
We have difficulty understanding people from Liverpool and them us and it is only twenty miles away and I am sure they think they speak 'perfect' English.
We will never no unless we can manage time travel.
My German friends know they are right and we are wrong because they told me so!
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Martin how do we know how the Romans spoke 2000 years ago? This is a serious question. I have often wondered about this since becoming interested in gardening and meeting 'plant experts' who always know the correct pronunciation and say this is how Latin should be spoken.
The 'proper' classical way to pronounce Latin is as taught in schools. Exactly how they worked out what pronunciations were in Roman times I don't know exactly, but I understand it was through writings from the time (in Latin and other languages) about the language itself, from which Latin scholars were able to glean how words were pronounced.
Apparently quite a few pronunciations have changed since I learned Latin. My son has been learning Latin for the last couple of years at secondary school, and it seems that further study of writings from Roman times have provided better clues to pronunciation, so that some words are now spoken quite differently to in my school days - just as current scholarly thinking has changed the way we're supposed to pronounce the name of Queen Boadicea (which I learned as Boadisseea but is apparently now pronounced Boadicca!)
Martin - Light years ago when I was taking Junior High School Latin I recall the teacher saying that the Irish monks were believed to have kept some correct Latin pronounciation going but church Latin was bastardized. Was he right? It would be interesting to hear more of what your son has gleaned from the latest findings.
I remember the teacher saying he could hardly imagine Caesar stepping forward to declare "Way-knee", "Wee-dee", "Week-ee" but that's the pronounciation he taught us.
I have to ask how are surnames properly handled ie Rhododendron wardii? And also the double "i"? A botanist friend says ward-ee-ee. A Hungarian friend says var-dee-ee and friends ward-ee-eye. Then, what of species names built on French, Russian or whatever surnames - do you pronounce as in French etc ...ie Rhododendron fargesii - farjh-ee-ee or far-gays-ee-ee or far-gays-ee-eye?
And "c" hard or soft? We were taught Boadicea as - bow-ah-dee'-kay-ah and provinciae as pro-win'-key-eye.
Things that trouble the idle mind.
johnw
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Apparently quite a few pronunciations have changed since I learned Latin. My son has been learning Latin for the last couple of years at secondary school, and it seems that further study of writings from Roman times have provided better clues to pronunciation, so that some words are now spoken quite differently to in my school days - just as current scholarly thinking has changed the way we're supposed to pronounce the name of Queen Boadicea (which I learned as Boadisseea but is apparently now pronounced Boadicca!)
Martin - Light years ago when I was taking Junior High School Latin I recall the teacher saying that the Irish monks were believed to have kept some correct Latin pronounciation going but church Latin was bastardized. Was he right? It would be interesting to hear more of what your son has gleaned from the latest findings.
I remember the teacher saying he could hardly imagine Caesar stepping forward to declare "Way-knee", "Wee-dee", "Week-ee" but that's the pronounciation he taught us.
I have to ask how are surnames properly handled ie Rhododendron wardii? And also the double "i"? A botanist friend says ward-ee-ee. A Hungarian friend says var-dee-ee and friends ward-ee-eye. Then, what of species names built on French, Russian or whatever surnames - do you pronounce as in French etc ...ie Rhododendron fargesii - farjh-ee-ee or far-gays-ee-ee or far-gays-ee-eye?
And "c" hard or soft? We were taught Boadicea as - bow-ah-dee'-kay-ah and provinciae as pro-win'-key-eye.
Things that trouble the idle mind.
johnw
[/quote]
I was taught "boodicca" John.
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Given that Latin is a dead language (i.e no-one actually can 100% be sure of any pronounciation because there is no-one on the planet who is a native speaker or it) the arguments about what is right and wrong will always continue. Anyone who is an absolute authority on these things is really tooting their own trumpet, as there is no way to be sure of how things really WERE pronounced. Once I found out that I stopped worrying about how something was pronounced "right" and just decided that as long as whoever I was talking to and I could work it out between us that we were talking about the same plant, then it didn't really matter. ;D
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I was taught "boodicca" John.
Hmm! I'm almost certain our teacher said the only dipthong in Latin was ae (eye).
Next time I see a friend who studied ancient Greek I will grill her.
johnw
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I'm no expert on Latin pronunciation. All I'm saying is that the best we can do is try to pronounce Latin names in as generally accepted a way as possible - i.e. as it's taught in schools. Hopefully botanists are a little more precise with Latin pronunciations than most gardeners.
My Slovak wife, who has a Masters degree in environmental sciences from Komarska University in Bratislave and majored in botany, has always despaired of English gardeners' pronunciations of Latin names. The first time I said Gentiana in her presence she fell about laughing! She said they way I pronounced it, it sounded like a Russian princess!
It does seem that continental Europeans tend to take fewer liberties with Latin than we do. I suppose historically it's to do with British linguistic arrogance - the way we've tended to anglicise everything.
Personally, my Latin pronunciations are all over the place despite three or four years of agony in Latin classes, and I've felt embarrassed many times at coming out with pronunciations that weren't how the gardeners I was talking to pronounced the names! It's a total minefield. Often you don't know who's more embarrassed, you or the other person who thinks they've got it wrong.
I suppose in the end, the important thing is that you can always point at a Latin plant name in a book or a list and everyone (theoretically!) recognises it and knows what is it (even if they pronounce it differently).
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Hmm! I'm almost certain our teacher said the only dipthong in Latin was ae (eye).
johnw
Did he hurt you badly John? :-\ ;D ;D
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Often you don't know who's more embarrassed, you or the other person who thinks they've got it wrong.
Martin just grow old,first you will learn not to care and second this will be a minor embarrassment compared with other events (medical when the pronunciation of the words will be nothing compared with the procedures)you may encounter
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I was taught "boodicca" John.
Hmm! I'm almost certain our teacher said the only dipthong in Latin was ae (eye).
Next time I see a friend who studied ancient Greek I will grill her.
johnw
The spelling and hence perceived pronunciation comes from the Latin. The person herself, however, was not Roman, so if my memory serves me correct (which it usually doesn't), her name would have been Celtic. It is certainly spelt Boudica in Wikipedia.
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No, indeed, Boudicea was a meber of the Iceni and we always said boo- dick-a too. ;D
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Martin
the problem with Hungrian pronunciation is that even though s and c separately are pronounced one way there are some combinations that are a sound of there own. for example "sz" is pronounced as "s" is pronounced in English (or Swedish for that matter) but I do not know if "sc" is such a combination. "cs" is such a combination.
The latin used for should be pronounced as it was meant at the time these names were given rather than how we now believe they should be spoken 2000 years ago. At least that is my opinion. If Carl von Linné and the scientists of his time pronounced it a certain way it should still be pronounced that way.
If they changed the pronunciation later then newer names should use the newer pronunciation.
At least that is how I see it.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Joakim, sc is pronounced separately. S like sh in English, and c like ts. AND "a" like a kind of o (not exactly, for example like the first a in "always"). So: Scilla is pronounced Shtsilla in Hungarian. ;D
But this is less important. I also think the best would be to pronounce everybody in the same way the Latin names, but this can't be managed in the whole world. So... ;D
And Martin, we also hungaricize everything, and maybe all nations do this... Here are used a lot of English words already, and if you would hear how they pronounce it, I think you also would fall about laughing.
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Thanks Kata my Hungarian books are some 3500 km away now so I was not sure.
Kind regards
Joakim
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All these difficulties arise because of differences in teaching and with regional accents ; surely the main advantage of sticking with the latin name of any plant is that when one WRITES it, it is written the same way worldwide??!! ::)
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All these difficulties arise because of differences in teaching and with regional accents ; surely the main advantage of sticking with the Latin name of any plant is that when one WRITES it, it is written the same way worldwide??!! ::)
Here here Maggi. Seeing document written in Japanese sprinkled with Latin names is very strange, but at least you can see if you are gazing at the right gobbledygook. :)
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All school children in Sweden know that the English spelling is intended to hide the pronunciation as much as possible. ;D
We all know that fish should be written ghoti. (acc. to GBS but he was Irish I believe :P).
One major problem in this discusion is that the English pronounce vowels in a different way to the rest of Europe.
The way English pronounce A would be written Äj in Swedish (or German.)
I = Aj. E = I, U = Jo, Y= oai, O=Ĺo
We pronounce the e also when it is the last letter of the word. (unless we are French)
We pronounce r also inside words (like Scots ???).
This handicaps Anglosaxon people when learning other languages - including Japanese.
When the Japanese write for themselves they use the syllable system katakana to write foreign words and do this very phonetically
So they tend to write Latin in kana the way they perceive English pronounce it. Then when they want to communicate with us they translate phonetically from the kana into Latin letters. This creates the gobbledygook. It is really English seen from the outside. ;)
Yes it is quite possible to reconstruct pronunciation of a dead language given enough text. This is, however, mot the forum to explain how.
Yes I think the ideal is to pronounce Latin the way the auctor did; be it Carl von Linné or some later botanist. None of them pronounced the way Caesar did.
However, since ideals sometimes are difficult to achieve, I agree it is better to pronounce in a way that is generally understood - which outside UK/US is not the way English people pronounce.
Hope you had a nice weekend
Göte
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What I don't think has been picked up on, is that even within the UK 'Church Latin' , 'Botanical Latin', and 'School Latin'
often have their own distinctive customs when it comes to pronunciation.
Mention has been made of plant names with Greek 'roots'.
I think I'm right in suggesting that these have all been 'Latinised' and so should not be treated any differently to straight Latin
names when it comes to pronunciation.
My pet hate is 'Androsace'
as in ' An - dross - a- see'
( An -dro-sarky, I think!)
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Are you suggesting that words from Greek roots like Cymbidium should be Kymbidium?
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( An -dro-sarky, I think!)
Fair point Giles.
The second 'r' is a typo presumably ;)
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In most English accents the second 'r' is not rolled, so 'ar' would sound 'ah'.
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In most English accents the second 'r' is not rolled, so 'ar' would sound 'ah'.
If it's not a typo then there would be no 'r' at all in standard English or most forms of English around the world; my point ;).
To an Irish ear at least, insertion of an extra 'r' is generally restricted to accents from SE England (but which are heavily represented on British radio and TV of course).
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I raise my hand to admit to "Ann-dross-asee" .....
I cannot say that I have ever heard anyone say "An-dro-saky" ::) :-\
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I raise my hand to admit to "Ann-dross-asee" .....
A tad cruel on poor Ann, Maggi ... she can't help her derriere! :)
During two hundred plus lectures to the East Lancashire Group of the Alpine Garden Society we have heard every pronunciation of each contestable plant name and we still managed to understand the speaker.
Life is too short ... I would much rather grow and photograph them ...
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Wish I'd never opened this thread :'(
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During two hundred plus lectures to the East Lancashire Group of the Alpine Garden Society we have heard every pronunciation of each contestable plant name and we still managed to understand the speaker.
Life is too short ... I would much rather grow and photograph them ...
;D ;D ;D
How right you are Cliff!
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Henrik Zetterlund says skilla
A German snowdrop collector I know says gal-an-tus
An Ulster Group member talks about keel-an-deens
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I remember one eminent SRGC personality saying that it does not matter how you pronounce the names as long as the other person(s) understands you. Conversely, I remember another speaker standing up and proclaiming, rather pompously, that it helps if you have a classical background!
The words we are trying to pronounce are names of things. Just compare this with the way we pronounce British, and particularly Scottish, place names. There are a number of places where the residents accept two different pronunciations of the one name. An example would be the village of Tarves in Aberdeenshire. It is pronounced as in Mavis or as in Calves and both are in common useage.
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In most English accents the second 'r' is not rolled, so 'ar' would sound 'ah'.
If it's not a typo then there would be no 'r' at all in standard English or most forms of English around the world; my point ;).
To an Irish ear at least, insertion of an extra 'r' is generally restricted to accents from SE England (but which are heavily represented on British radio and TV of course).
I come from Yorkshire and it took me years to learn how to roll an 'r'.
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As far as I know the standard work in English on Botanical Latin remains Botanical Latin by W.T. Stearn (1983). Stearn maintains that this is essentially a written language and devotes less than 4 pages (out of 557) to pronunciation. He prefaces his brief discussion with the remark: "How they [the names of plants] are pronounced really matters little provided they sound pleasant and are understood by all concerned."
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Far from being an expert in latin I would say that in Swedish they are pronounced skilla as in skill and presumably also in Danish. Whether it is correct or not I do not know but I will not change my way of pronounce it anyway.
Lovely picture every one.
Kind regards
Joakim
...even in finnish it's being pronounced skilla... and I believe that is rather the 'right' pronouncing according to those who knows more... ;O)
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Personally, I think it sounds skilly. ;D Local pronunciations will aways take preference over 'correct' scientific thinking. The pronunciation of the word is given in the dictionary as silla, but then all words in English starting with 'sc' ignore the 'c'.
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If I don't know a plant and the owner says this is a _ _ _ _ I will then know the plant as this name and will not know if this is right.
A guy I know thinks he knows it all but is very poor at remember botanical names and always addds letters into the pronunciation or is it pronounciation?
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but then all words in English starting with 'sc' ignore the 'c'.
That doesn't seem to scan, Anthony ... :) Scorry!
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You pronounce it skan Cliff? ;) I should have added, before 'i' and 'e'. :-[
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You pronounce it skan Cliff? ;) I should have added, before 'i' and 'e'. :-[
I am sceptic to this claim. Or is it septic? Anyway, be grateful that you did not have to learn this bizarre language in school.
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I just looked up "sceptic" in my dictionary and found it's the American spelling. Hope I didn't offend anyone by bringing it up.
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I think part of the problem with different pronunciations comes when Latin words become also the "local" name and then the local name is pronounced like the locals do and then the Latin is also pronounced that way.
How do people pronounce Galanthus? For Germanic speakers (maybe with the exception for the mixed Germanic language English) it should be gal-an-tus. I presume Mark´s German collector is not alone.
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I say gal-an-thus
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Hi people:
I laughed a lot at your funny remarks.
I remember one international conference with people from 14 countries attending and there was no problem understanding botanic names provided a bit of good will was added. It was in California and most people used the English pronounciation. Martyn Rix and Brian Mathew used a most probable Latin pronounciation.
During another one also in California (a Symposium on South America), Josef Halda gave a lecture on Tierra del Fuego in which he pronounced the many names in a most admirable Latin, true Latin. The photos were superb and the lecture up to his usual standards. After it was over, American friends were coincident: "I did not understand a single name".
So, if one becomes accostumed to a local pronounciation, it will be difficult to understand a "universal" one. And, it is not completely true that it is impossible to know how a "dead" language was pronounced. Comparing it with other derived languages it is possible to figure a good number of rules. afew consonants remain a mystery and open to debate but most not.
best
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I am very reluctant to get involved in this discussion,but I was taught Latin by Monks in a Monastery. The simple rule was,pronounce it as you spell it,all the syllables.
I have been contradicted so many times at discussion weekends and meetings by people who think that they know better, that I would not dare to pronounce a Latin name in public, I just pretend I don't know. So forgive me if I do not reply to any questions from this post.
Cheers,
Michael
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;)...I tend to go for the pronouncing everything as it is written... that is the way we were taught that latin is vocalized... ???
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The simple rule was,pronounce it as you spell it,all the syllables.
I think this is the natural approach for most non-English speakers. In most European languages there is a rather clear correspondence between the letters written and the sounds pronounced, so when we see a word in a foreign language it is natural to just look at the letters and say them one after the other as clearly as we can. This does not always lead to the same result, for instance Swedish and Germans say "galantus" since there is no "th" sound in our language. However usually it is close enough so we can understand each other. I imagine that English speakers rather try to find some similarly spelt English word and pronounce it similarly. This leads to a pronounciation that is often incomprehensible to outsiders.
I remember hearing that in the days when Latin was taught at Swedish schools there was an "Uppsala" and a "Lund" system of pronounciation. These are the counterparts of Cambridge and Oxford. If there were two competing systems in Sweden, I think it is hopeless to come up with a "universal" system. We just have to enjoy the differences and try to understand each other.
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You pronounce it skan Cliff? ;) I should have added, before 'i' and 'e'. :-[
I am sceptic to this claim. Or is it septic? Anyway, be grateful that you did not have to learn this bizarre language in school.
What was that about 'the exception that.......'?
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You know for us non-native English speakers the way you express youself when you try to explain in writing how you pronounce is a complete mystery. ??? (or Greek as we say in Sweden about something we do not understand) ;)
Professor Karlgren used to say that when English do not know how to spell a foreign word they put in an 'h' :D That was his explanation for some quirks in the Wade system of romanizing Chinese.
So we have the pronounciation of th as in 'thing' But in some cases the h stands for an aspiration - meaning that Thor is pronounced "T-or" with a small pause after the T. The wade system would write T'or as in T'ang dynasty. This use of h is used in romanization of Sanskrit.
I hope that I by this have confounded those who confound me by their spelling. ;D
O by the way : I am having ghoti for dinner ;D ;D
Göte
PS
I say Skilla
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I am having ghoti for dinner
Göte
How are you having your fish.... phried or boyled?
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Though the names we discuss are in latin, the problem really arises with the english connection, so I cannot resist posting this:
Poem 'The Chaos' : Pronunciation and spelling
Dearest creature in creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
I will keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.
Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain .
(Mind the latter, how it's written.)
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as plaque and ague.
But be careful how you speak:
Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.
Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, and reviles;
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.
Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation's OK
When you correctly say croquet,
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.
Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
And enamour rhyme with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
And then singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.
Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
Though the differences seem little,
We say actual but victual.
Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
Dull, bull, and George ate late.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific.
Liberty , library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
Mark the differences, moreover,
Between mover, cover, clover;
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice;
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.
Petal, panel, and canal,
Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
Tour, but our and succour, four.
Gas, alas, and Arkansas .
Sea, idea, Korea , area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.
Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion and battalion.
Sally with ally, yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.
Heron, granary, canary.
Crevice and device and aerie.
Face, but preface, not efface.
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.
Ear, but earn and wear and tear
Do not rhyme with here but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,
Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.
Pronunciation -- think of Psyche!
Is a paling stout and spikey?
Won't it make you lose your wits,
Writing groats and saying grits?
It's a dark abyss or tunnel:
Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.
Finally, which rhymes with enough–
Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
Hiccough has the sound of cup.
My advice is to give it up!!!
—Gerald Nolst Trenite (1870-1946)
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I cannot remember who said this a propos English linguistic imperialism: "The Germans call it 'brot', the French call it 'pain' & the Italians call it 'pane'. But we call it 'bread' & we are right because it is bread."
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Long-winded, wasn't he!
Paddy
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I think I've mentioned this before. Wasn't it the Sony Corp that was so called because it can't be mispronounced? Aye right. ::) Is that 'Sunny' as in 'son'; 'Sonny' as in 'on' (the way I pronounce it) or 'so-ny' as in so?
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Long-winded, wasn't he!
Paddy
Sorry Paddy. I think it is very funny, but one shouldn't impose one's own sense of humour on other people.
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Gerry, I believe Paddy's "long-winded" comment was aimed at the rather long poem from the Dutchman, Gerald Nolst Trenite, which I posted earlier... :-[ :)
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Gerry, I believe Paddy's "long-winded" comment was aimed at the rather long poem from the Dutchman, Gerald Nolst Trenite, which I posted earlier... :-[ :)
Maggi - you are probably right. It would help to know what is being referred to if people prefaced their posts with a "quote" (not that I always do!). If a comment immediately follows a post I tend to assume that it refers to that post (other things being equal).
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Sorry, Gerry,
Yes, I was referring to Maggi's quoted poem - and I enjoyed your sense of humour very much.
Paddy
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Yes, it was a long one... here's another, shorter and more punchy...... I don't know who wrote it...
....I take it you already know
of tough and bough and cough and dough?
Others may stumble, but not you,
on hiccough, thorough, laugh and through.
Well done! And now you wish, perhaps,
to learn of less familiar traps?
Beware of heard, a dreadful word,
that looks like beard and sounds like bird.
And dead -- it's said like bed not bead --
and for goodness' sake don't call it deed!
Watch out for meat and great and threat
(They rhyme with suite and straight and debt)
A moth is not the moth in mother,
nor both in bother, broth in brother.
And here is not a match for there,
nor dear and fear for bear and pear.
And then there's dose and rose and lose --
just look them up -- and goose and choose,
and cork and work and card and ward,
and font and front and word and sword,
and do and go and thwart and cart --
come, come I've hardly made a start.
A dreadful language? Man alive.
I'd mastered it when I was five.
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After reading ALL the above I'm quite exhausted! I was going to make some suggestions based on isiZulu, but changed my mind! ;)
There are many words I'm afraid to pronounce in public - here's one I'm particularly scared of: caespitose - can anyone enlighten me?
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I say kais (k followed by eye) pit o sa
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How about 'kay-spit-o-sey'?
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For caespitose I say K-eye-spi-toes for caespitosa I would sy k-eye-spi-toza
I know plenty folks who say Cess-pit-oze...... but cess pits are something I prefer to avoid whenever possible! :P
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Yeah I know someone who says cess pit
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For caespitose I say K-eye-spi-toes for caespitosa I would sy k-eye-spi-toza
I know plenty folks who say Cess-pit-oze...... but cess pits are something I prefer to avoid whenever possible! :P
On the OTHER hand... I say sellmisia, not kellmisia....... but I also say sicklamin and not kicklamin....... confused.... I sure am!! [attach=1]
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I just feel good if I can remember the name, never mind how to pronounce it.
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I say "sess pit osa" just through habit, although, being of Latin rather than Greek origin it should be 'K' and then 'eye'. In singing I pronounce 'Coelos' as 'Chellos', but other countries have 'sellos'.
BTW anyone know the origin of the quote "the curtains were drawn, everthing else was real", or is it a misquote from "The curious incident of the dog in the night-time"?
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Chic Murray.
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Interesting! This thread also reminded me of some words that i didnt knew how to pronounce, the same way as caespitose, such as caesia, coelogyne, coelia, etc... But i had spoked to my teacher and he told me that they are spelled this way: cehsia (like caesar is the latin name for cesar), celogine and celia. Latin is such a strange language.. hehe ;D
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Interesting! This thread also reminded me of some words that i didnt knew how to pronounce, the same way as caespitose, such as caesia, coelogyne, coelia, etc... But i had spoked to my teacher and he told me that they are spelled this way: cehsia (like caesar is the latin name for cesar), celogine and celia. Latin is such a strange language.. hehe ;D
Funny you should mention Caesar..... I certainly don't say K-eye-sar, but say see=sar. At least now I know (who said Latin was a funny language) what caespitosa means. ;D
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Funny you should mention Caesar..... I certainly don't say K-eye-sar, but say see=sar.
Yes Anthony, you are right, Caespitose, Caesia and Caesar (sehs-pi-tose, seh-sia and seh-zar in portuguese) are all pronounced the same way. So I guess you shall pronounce the first two the same way you say Cesar in English.
Caesia comes from Caesius (that means coppery-blue in latin). Although they look very similar words, i guess Caesia and Caesar arnt related :P
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By analogy with Caesar, which most native English speakers do not pronounce Kaiser, I would incline towards 'See-spitosa'. Fortunately I don't grow it so I never have to say its name.
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Fortunately I don't grow it so I never have to say its name.
Now, Gerry, that IS cheating!! ;D
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This chat reminds me of someone who says Aquilegia as a-quil-ea
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Interesting sugestion, Michael. Hail Seas-pit-oser!
Life is much easier for those of the school of thought that it doesn't really matter how you pronounce it, just try not to kill it!