Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: Thomas Huber on October 01, 2008, 08:06:14 AM
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Bad, rainy and windy weather in Neustadt today.
Here a few impressions from my rockgarden to lighten up dull October:
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Some flowers enjoying the last September sunshine:
- Crocus asumaniae, next relative to C. mathewii
- C. biflorus ssp melantherus, the autumn flowering taxa of the biflorus group with blackish anthers
- C. cancellatus ssp cancellatus, a beautiful form grown from wild collected seed
- C. cancellatus ssp pamphyllicus, the white anthered ssp of cancellatus still doing well outside
- 2x C. caspius, one of my favourites, long wanted and now finally flowering in my garden :D :D
- Close up of the C. medius style
- C. ochroleucus from Lebanon, larger than the Dutch trade form and with a beautiful veining
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You sure succeeded to lighten up a dull October day Thomas ! :D
(plenty of rain and wind here too !)
I understand why you're so happy with C. caspius Thomas it's a real delight !! (and so are many others !! ;D )
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Fabulous Thomas. The flowers look great in your garden, looks like you had a good spell of weather before today. Your crocuses are weeks ahead of mine. Are some of the special ones increasing in the garden? I certainly hope so ;)
Celine seems to have grown over the summer and looks so much like her mum :) Is Fanny a new arrival in the Huber household? (Looks like she could be a friend for Lily in Aberdeen :D)
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Thanks Luc - I don't like to have a look out of my window :P
Last batch of flowers for today and - if I can trust the weather forecast - for this week :(
- C. oreocreticus, the high mountain autumn crocus from Crete
- C. robertianus, from the Pindus Mountains in Greece. I love these strong and showy flowers and hope for many seeds next summer!
- C. serotinus ssp salzmannii Albus, this one is standing much better in the autumn rain than 'El Torcal'
- C. speciosus Albus, nothing special but nevertheless a wonderful crocus
- C. thomasii from Gargano, where it was not recorded so far
- Two forms of C. tournefortii, first one from Crete, second one from Mykonos. The Mykonos form is showing unusual feathering and forms many small bulbills - both points for a possibly hybrid with C. laevigatus in my opinion!
Yes, Tony, the specials are increasing well in my sandy soil now! ;)
Fanny is the neighbours dog and Celine loves playing with her.
She has made a big jump in growing - physically and mental!
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Thank you ,Thomas for sharing your beautyfully grown autumn crocus with us . Did you find any mauve coloured forms amongst the batch of C. caspius?
Ciao Otto.
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Thank you ,Thomas for sharing your beautyfully grown autumn crocus with us . Did you find any mauve coloured forms amongst the batch of C. caspius?
Ciao Otto.
No, Otto, just soft blue ones - but these are not the ones you sent me in January.
Yours are still in a pot and waiting for flowering. Next summer they will be planted in the open garden.
Will tell you if any mauve forms appear.
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- C. speciosus Albus, nothing special but nevertheless a wonderful crocus
mmmm Thomas, didn't you tell us that ALL Crocus are special only a few days ago ??? :P ;D
And I do agree with that statement !! ;)
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mmmm Thomas, didn't you tell us that ALL Crocus are special only a few days ago ??? :P ;D
And I do agree with that statement !! ;)
Of course they are, Luc - but this one is not especially special - you understand ;)
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;D ;D ;D
ah.. now I understand... ::)
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I would have rephrased that to say that some Crocus are more special than others!
Wonderful rockery, Thomas, would love to get to see it in real life sometime.
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Thomas - very beautiful crocus. It's amazing how advanced yours are. Here, for instance, only the noses are showing on C. robertianus & there is no sign at all of C. tournefortii. C. caspius is a lovely plant; alas I lost all mine when ill a few years ago & just one seed has germinated from a sowing made 2 years ago.
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The morning started bright in Aberdeen but in the last few monutes the wind has increased and the rain begins..... so it is even more welcome to see the crocus so happy in Neustadt! So many fine forms out this early.
Celine is as lovely as the flowers and our little white dog Lily would have great fun playing with Celine and the cute Scottie Fanny..... might not be quite so good for the flowers, though!
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Marvellous pics of so tiny bulbs. Thank you Thomas. I like particularly caspius, robertianus and your ochroleucus. All are the top models !!! thank for de jager received at home. Neustadt is the best for crocuses, because mine are very late in comparaison with yours. I have only cancellatus, first speciosus, pulchellus, salzmannii, tournefortii and since to day, longiflorus. All we hope you have many seeds in summer !!!
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Thanks everbody!
David, most people who know my garden just from photos are dissappointed when seeing it with their own eyes!
Ask Luit, Dirk, Hans, Armin, Alberto ... :-\
Gerry, will try to help you with some caspius seeds next summer - if I get some!
Paintbrush was running hot last weekend ;D Don't know why my plants are so much advanced, they don't get a special treatment.
Even Dirk told me most of his plants are still sleeping! By the way: I also have many autumn crocus still sleeping!
Maggi and Lily (and everybody else!), you're invited to visit Fanny in my garden every time!
Good luck with my corms, Dom!
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Thomas,
Wonderful photos, as always.
Maybe Crocus speciosus Albus has nothing special, because it is widely spread and easily available plant, but to my eyes it the most beautiful of all the crocuses shown in your pictures. I emagine if it was a rare plant, then it would immadiately catch everybody's attention no matter it is highly decorative or not.
Your crocus salzmanii white form atracted my attention. In photo it looks quite impressive. I wonder if it is more vigorous and larger than 'El Torcal'.
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Thomas
All your Crocus are wonderful, but I think your namesake Crocus is outstanding. I am growing some from seed, and can only hope they produce flowers with as deep a colour as yours.
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Thomas,
Wonderful photos, as always.
Maybe Crocus speciosus Albus has nothing special, because it is widely spread and easily available plant, but to my eyes it the most beautiful of all the crocuses shown in your pictures. I emagine if it was a rare plant, then it would immadiately catch everybody's attention no matter it is highly decorative or not.
Your crocus salzmanii white form atracted my attention. In photo it looks quite impressive. I wonder if it is more vigorous and larger than 'El Torcal'.
Zhirair, a crocus has not to be a special rarity to be beautiful ;D
Salzmannii Albus can be compared on photo nr. 30 from the first batch I posted. 'El Torcal' is the one in the foreground on the right side,
while the other one is on the left in the background. Both are same height. Can just tell you, that it has increased in its first season in my
garden - but not if it increases better than 'El Torcal'.
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Thomas,
Thanks for clarifications! Both white forms of crocus salzmanii are equally good.
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Thomas,
Thanks for clarifications! Both white forms of crocus salzmanii are equally good.
BUT the new white one is better suited for the open garden!!
'El Torcal' is often damaged from rain, while the new one is still standing strong!!
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David, most people who know my garden just from photos are dissappointed when seeing it with their own eyes!
Ask Luit, Dirk, Hans, Armin... :-\
I have the same problem Thomas, you are not alone. But never mind the garden, the friendly Hubis would make a visit to Neustadt worthwhile. :) :) :)
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How can a bulb fanatic be disappointed to see Thomas' or your collection in real life?
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Mark while the camera may not lie it does allow us to show only the highlights, there are plenty of low spots in my garden ;) .... and the pics I have posted recently are the highlights of the last month, come on the wrong day and there might be nothing to see :o
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Thanks everbody!
David, most people who know my garden just from photos are dissappointed when seeing it with their own eyes!
Ask Luit, Dirk, Hans, Armin, Alberto ... :-\
Thomas, I did not say that! How could I ?? :o :o :o
We just had bad luck with the weather, rain and cold :( :(
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Thomas,
It makes me happy so a marvellous collection to see. Thanks
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Tony,
you say the truth!
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Lovely stuff Thomas.
Here are some of mine from today. Crocus speciosus Aitchinsonii (I've seen a few alternative spellings of this, this is the one Rob Potterton uses in his catalogue) from Thomas, with many thanks; C. speciosus Albus, and C. kotschyanus.
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Crocus speciosus Aitchinsonii (I've seen a few alternative spellings of this, this is the one Rob Potterton uses in his catalogue) ... C. speciosus Albus...
David pointed out the lack of consistency in naming the widely grown large flowered form of Crocus speciosus and he used the spelling Aitchinsonii which he got from the Potterton catalogue. I checked several formal references and all use the spelling aitchisonii. Brian Mathew, in The Crocus, attributes this name to Bowles. The name appears in The Bulb Book of John Weathers from 1911, and I’ll bet it’s a lot older than that. In any case, it’s an old name – and one now regarded as of horticultural significance only.
It seems to me that I’ve seen photos of this plant in older works which show a plant with very wide, large flowers. Bowles called it the largest flowered of autumnal crocuses, and gave its bloom time as late, mid-October. I grew such plants forty years ago, but more recent acquisitions under this name seem different (and in fact no different than many other acquisitions of Crocus speciosus under any of the garden names typically used for it).
In cases like this, the first thing which comes to mind is this: was the original aitchisonii a clone? And if so, does that original clone still exist? Questions of this sort are bothersome, and we might never be able to resolve them.
The same question pertains to what we call Crocus speciosus ‘Albus’. The first plant to have this name is said to have been a clone. Many years ago I grew a white-flowered form of Crocus speciosus received as Crocus speciosus albus; this form had such large flowers that I often wondered if it had been derived from what I knew as aitchisonii. Was it a clone, the original clone, and does it still exist? Every once and a while a particularly fine white-flowered Crocus speciosus appears in my garden, and I wonder if it is a piece of the plant I originally obtained over forty years ago. And over the years other smaller, white-flowered forms have appeared spontaneously in my garden. Furthermore, acquisitions in recent years under the name 'Albus' have yielded excellent plants with white flowers smaller than the large form described above.
These uncertainties have caused me to abandon use of the names Crocus speciosus albus (because the entities in question almost certainly do not correspond to sexually reproducing wild populations) and Crocus speciosus ‘Albus’ (i.e. a cultivar name, but in this case there is reason to believe that the name is used ambiguously (and incorrectly) to name any and all white-flowered forms regardless of provenance; in other words, it really doesn't name anything in particular, it just suggests that whatever it names will be a white flowered form of Crocus speciosus).
Here in Maryland there is no tradition of growing these plants. But those of you in the UK and Europe do seem have viable traditions which allow you to resolve with some certainty the questions I've raised. What are your feelings about these issues?
Perhaps I should have simply enjoyed David's fine photographs.
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Jim,
I am not very deep in crocuses, but I should say that crocus speciosus Albus is very distinct, different in flower shape from other speciosus forms and cultivars (somewhat pointed petals). It is very large flowered at the smae time. Most of the companies selling this crocus, offer this form. So I think that the name crocus speciosus Albus applies right to the type I discribe. (crocus speciosus Albus trade form)
Though from my bulb fellows I heard number of times that there are other white-flowerd crocus speciosus types in existance, which differ from the original one by flower shape and size, blooming time, etc.
Relating 'Aitchinsonii', I only know that it is a form, selected from wild population in Caucasas. So it is supposed to be not a cultivar.
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A few years ago I bought a full collection of speciosus cultivars from various sources. Nearly all were speciosus
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Very interesting point, Jim!
For many years I try to find out more about speciosus cultivars, but no one can help me, neither with true plants nor photos or paintings of true plants. I have most of the cultivars (Aichisonii, Cassiope, Conquerer, Oxonian, Aino, Albus, Pollux) but I can't be sure if these plants are 100% correct. They match with the spare descriptions I found in the web and various books but these descriptions are not very detailed :-[
If you have old books with paintings or photos of the mentioned cultivars I would be very happy if you could share them with me.
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Welcome to Croconut world David ! ;D
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By Jove, October is only 2 days old and we are already on page 3! :o
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If you have old books with paintings or photos of the mentioned cultivars I would be very happy if you could share them with me.
Thomas - have you ever seen Collins Guide to Bulbs by Patrick M Synge (Collins 1961)? It's many years since I've seen this book but I seem to remember it had lots of coloured illustrations (paintings).
It is available very cheaply on the web via ABEBooks.
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Here is a picture I made out of the book of P.M. Synge.
Sorry, I was a bit shivering without tripod, but the colours will do I hope.
Looking at some colours I would not go for identification, despite the nice pictures.
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Amazon sellers list copies of the book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B000S54C4W/ref=dp_olp_0/203-8353866-8103117?ie=UTF8&condition=all (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B000S54C4W/ref=dp_olp_0/203-8353866-8103117?ie=UTF8&condition=all)
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I want to try to relate what we are discussing here to something which is happening in the bigger world of taxonomy. Most of us have been taught to use botanical nomenclature in naming our garden plants. But my impression is that gardeners in general do not understand how botanical nomenclature works. Another forum member, in commenting on efforts to obtain representative examples of the cultivated forms of Crocus speciosus, stated that all turned out to be “Crocus speciosus”.
All of the various manifestations of Crocus speciosus (its subspecies, its wild variants, its cultivars) are properly referred to as Crocus speciosus. But my impression is that gardeners do not understand it that way. To many gardeners, the term "Crocus speciosus" means “the usual form” or something like that. And this concept “usual form” is not the same as the botanist’s “typical form” or Crocus speciosus subsp specisous. The commonly grown cultivars all seem to have derived from Crocus speciosus subspecies speciosus. Thus the plant we call 'Aitchisonii' might be named Crocus speciosus subsp. speciosus cv. ‘Aitchisonii’ – although most of us fins such designations cumbersome and will probably simply call it ‘Aitchisonii’ . This cv. ‘Aitchisonii’ is no more or less Crocus speciosus than any wild plant of typical (in both the layman’s sense and the formal nomenclatural sense) Crocus speciosus.
Gardeners who strive to mirror the practice of taxonomists might not be doing us a favor. More and more modern taxonomists have come around to the point of view that the only proper focuses of their work are sexually reproducing populations (species in the modern sense). Some even call into question the propriety of attempting to distinguish subspecies. On the other hand, the nomenclature of horticulture has a long and tangled history of focus on the freaks of nature, the exceptions, the atypical plants which stand out and appeal to man’s aesthetic sense. Modern taxonomic practice largely ignores such entities – as it should.
But wouldn’t it be a great loss for horticulture if we were to ignore these plants simply because formal taxonomy no longer recognizes them?
‘Aitchisonii’ might have no claim to importance in the realm of formal taxonomic nomenclature, but it would be a shame if it were to disappear (if in fact it has not already) into the muddle of other unnamed forms of Crocus speciosus.
The point I’m trying to make here is that as gardeners we have our own traditions to uphold: formal taxonomy has, in a sense, abandoned us. It’s up to us to keep our own house in order, because formal taxonomy will no longer be doing it for us. Some current practices of taxonomists result in the obfuscation of the very things which as gardeners we deem important. Here’s an example: in the past, many garden plants were given Latin-form names. The modern understanding of some of these plants is that they are of hybrid origin. Modern taxonomic practice is to use such Latin-form names for all plants of similar origin. If the plant originally given such a Latin-form name was clonal in nature, a problem significant from a horticultural point of view arises: the original clone had its own characteristics. But later similar hybridizations might yield plants of markedly different color, form and so on. Yet all of these differing plants would get the same Latin-form name.
Those who knew the original clone and its characteristics would no doubt be confused to encounter a very different plant with the same name.
The problem is not simply that the various hybrids are given the same name. The real problem is that the original clones are apt to get lost in the muddle before we have realized what has happened and have had a chance to identify them at the proper taxonomic level (which for most garden plants will be the rank individuum or clone). For an example of this, look into the history of the plant known as Lilium × dalhansonii.
Yikes! What a screed: and I have not even had breakfast yet.
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Crocus goulimyi ‘Mani White’
I’ve grown this cultivar for several years but I’ve only just realised that it is strongly scented. Has anyone else noticed?
Neither of the subspecies of C.goulimyi seems to have any scent.
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Thus the plant we call 'Aitchisonii' might be named Crocus speciosus subsp. speciosus cv. ‘Aitchisonii’
Well, I got a bit ahead of myself there. 'Aitchisonii' can not properly be called a cultivar because it did not arise in cultivation.
What is the formal designation for clones of wild origin? I'm not sure.
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Thus the plant we call 'Aitchisonii' might be named Crocus speciosus subsp. speciosus cv. ‘Aitchisonii’
Well, I got a bit ahead of myself there. 'Aitchisonii' can not properly be called a cultivar because it did not arise in cultivation.
What is the formal designation for clones of wild origin? I'm not sure.
A cultivar is a distinct form which is not considered to warrant botanical recognition. It can be of either wild or garden origin. As I'm sure you are aware Jim, there is an International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants corresponding to the Int. Code of Botanical Nomenclature.
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Thus the plant we call 'Aitchisonii' might be named Crocus speciosus subsp. speciosus cv. ‘Aitchisonii’
Well, I got a bit ahead of myself there. 'Aitchisonii' can not properly be called a cultivar because it did not arise in cultivation.
What is the formal designation for clones of wild origin? I'm not sure.
A cultivar is a distinct form which is not considered to warrant botanical recognition. It can be of either wild or garden origin. As I'm sure you are aware Jim, there is an International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants corresponding to the Int. Code of Botanical Nomenclature.
Thanks, Gerry. I should be ashamed to admit it, but I have never read the ICNCP in toto; I've only seen parts of it. The definition of cultivar I'm familiar with specifically excludes plants not of cultivated origin. So the definition used in the code must be different.
Is the ICNCP available on-line? The last time I looked I could not find it.
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Jim - I've only seen parts of it too & that a long time ago. I've never had occasion to make use of it so I don't know whether it is online.
Examples of cultivars of garden & wild origin: Crocus goulimyi 'Mani White' arose in cultivation & was selected by Michael Hoog; C. chrysanthus 'Prespa Gold' came from a wild collection by Christian & Hoog.
The question of botanical & horticultural distinctions came up recently in the Sternbergia thread. While I think it is a good thing for gardeners to be aware of issues in botanical taxonomy it is also important (or at least useful) to sometimes retain distinct names for horticultural purposes even if these names have no botanical significance.
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Perhaps the white forms of Crocus speciosus should just be named C. speciosus forma alba(us)?
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Jim,
very interesting thoughts about nomenclature. C.speciosus and its trade forms are indeed a good example.
What annoys me repeated times is the fact professional growers/resellers use obvious wrong names and spread it still into the market. >:( As an amateur / hobby gardener in the first instance I can only refer to the names given it was purchased under.
In case of C.speciosus it seems to be proven the growing fields are often mixed up. How often don't we get what has been ordered? >:(
The origin of many clones is not always well documented, descriptions are vage and certainly also a secrect of growers.
The historical classification within the genus of crocus has been revised many times by botanists.
Using latest DNA analysis results will be very helpful and a milestone.
But is this error free? Not for sure! DNA analysis is a complicated matter and who confirms the sample analysed was the right one?
And it is expensive - who is funding arising costs?
Conclusions? - Not realy for me - there is still much room for improvements I'd like to say.
But thanks to the forumist cumulative knowledge many errors can be detected.
This is a big help - at least.
David,
in case of the white speciosus I personal could accept your proposal. ;)
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Amongst some corms that Tony Willis was kind enough to send me were four 'escapees' that he had dug out of his plunge but he was unsure what species they were. I potted them up, all in the same pot, and here is the first one to flower. I think it is Crocus kotschyanus, but then again I'm only a trainee Croconut. ???
A picture also of Crocus hadriaticus (sorry it's a bit out of focus but I was in a hurry) from some small corms that Tony Goode kindly sent me.
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Here is a picture I made out of the book of P.M. Synge.
Sorry, I was a bit shivering without tripod, but the colours will do I hope.
Looking at some colours I would not go for identification, despite the nice pictures.
Thanks Gerry for the tipp, and Luit for the scan!
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David
glad it flowered for you.I have had a lot more come up and flower this week and I am trying to erradicate them from my plunge. I must confess I thought they were pulchellus but you are probably right.
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With overcast weather here today crocuses have been reluctant to open.
C. goulimyi leucanthus - speckled sheath & mild scent in this form
C. robertianus
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some crocus from this weekend:
Cr.cancellatus ssp.cancellatus
hadriaticus, this form often offered under the name Cr.sativus `Albus`
hadriaticus x sativus `Cashmerianus`, a cross from me
nerimaniae, the best autumn flowering Crocus ?? like a Cr.cyprius
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Dirk - beautiful crocus. Do you have any information on C. nerimaniae? I've never heard of it & it is not in 'The Crocus'. It does look rather like C.cyprius externally.
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Gerry, have a look at Replies 108 and 111 in the thread Crocus October 2007.
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Thanks David, very helpful.
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David
glad it flowered for you.I have had a lot more come up and flower this week and I am trying to erradicate them from my plunge. I must confess I thought they were pulchellus but you are probably right.
Mmmm! Now I'm not so sure. Having looked at Crocus pages I find it difficult to differentiate between kotschyanus and pulchellus. Maybe it's because I'm a trainee! Anyone else have the same problem, and what can the experts tell me to help?
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here you go. For me C. pulchellus, as the name translates, is very pretty
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a cool, sunny sunday today,
open flowers from
Crocus nerimaniae and
mathewii, rose form
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here you go. For me C. pulchellus, as the name translates, is very pretty
Excellent pics for comparison, Mark. They show the differences in flower colour and throat colourings between pulchellus and kotschyanus perfectly!
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Martin thats good until Thomas and Tony come in and say "that's not .... it's ...."
Dirk very nice Crocus. I havent seen those two before
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Two true beauties Dirk - had not seen them before either !
Thanks for showing !
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With overcast weather here today crocuses have been reluctant to open.
C. goulimyi leucanthus - speckled sheath & mild scent in this form
C. robertianus
Ashley,
congratulation. Beautiful C. goulimiyi leucanthus - on super long stems! :D
C. robertianus is a stunner :o - wunderful long devided 3 branches and the yellow center 8) :o 8)
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a cool, sunny sunday today,
open flowers from
Crocus nerimaniae and
mathewii, rose form
Dirk,
really superb to see both species in comparison! :o :o :o
David,
thanks for hint to have a look into the old crocus thread.
It is always a pleasure to indulge in reminiscences - same feelings like looking at an old photo album. :P
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a cool, sunny sunday today,
open flowers from
Crocus nerimaniae and
mathewii, rose form
That Crocus nerimaniae is very special Dirk. Do you ever get any spare seed?
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Martin thats good until Thomas and Tony come in and say "that's not .... it's ...."
They won't.
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Dirk - beautiful crocus. Do you have any information on C. nerimaniae? I've never heard of it & it is not in 'The Crocus'. It does look rather like C.cyprius externally.
Gerry
it was written up in The Plantsman June 2004. I have a copy of the article if you do not have it and want it.
here is a poor picture of it in the wild
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Martin thats good until Thomas and Tony come in and say "that's not .... it's ...."
They won't.
C'est vrai Monsieur - the 2 crocusketeers :P will concur that Davids plant is C kotschyanus and that Marks 2 pics highlight both the differences and the similarities. Those very distinct W shaped markings in the throat belong to C kotschyanus.
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Some more crocuses from my collection
crocus speciosus 'pambaka' - very tall (up to 25 cm), very strong stem, that withstands even strong winds, again creamy anthers (collected from the smae area as 'Cloudy Sky'
crocus speciosus 'Goris' - up to 15-17 cm tall with beautiful pattern on the outside petals
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crocus speciosus 'Oxonian' - very large and beautiful flowers
crocus pulchellus 'Zephyr' - terrific cultivar, very large sized, extremely floriferous, even few corms make outstanding display
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crocus pallasii - nice crocus, good sizes, pointed flowers, sevaral blooms froma corm
crocus salzmanii 'El Torcal' - pleasing one
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some forms of crocus niveus
crocus niveus white standart form
crocus niveus white with lilac tint
crocus niveus white with lilac tint, but elongated flowers
crocus niveus bicolour (from small corms)
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Zhirair,
What a great selection of pictures. Thank you!! Just love that bicolor niveus that you posted last, but didn't actually "not like" any of them. ::) :-[
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I agree with Paul, Zhirair - amazing pictures.
Lovely diversity within the different genus'
Thanks for sharing.
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Lovely stuff Zhirair, Iliked them all!
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Thanks to Mark and TonyG for helping me to see the differences between kotschyanus and pulchellus. I think I could manage now to see the difference if I had one plant of each in front of me, but whether I could be correct with just one plant remains to be seen! ??? My colour recognition skills leave something to be desired although I am not colour blind. I'm often criticised, by the female member's of the family, for my choice of jumpers to go with particular shirts 8)
Still, here are a few from the greenhouse today.
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Some more crocuses from my collection
crocus speciosus 'pambaka' - very tall (up to 25 cm), very strong stem, that withstands even strong winds, again creamy anthers (collected from the smae area as 'Cloudy Sky'
crocus speciosus 'Goris' - up to 15-17 cm tall with beautiful pattern on the outside petals
Zhirair,
that C. speciosus 'pambaka' looks very strong and healthy, excellent! :o 8)
The difference to "Oxonian" seem to be just the color of the stem. Right?
C.pulchellus "Zephyr" is an easy grower in my garden too. ;)
All the others you show from your collection are also beautiful and desireable.
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Still, here are a few from the greenhouse today.
Hello David,
your C. cartwrightianus looks not typical to me.
It is a variable species in color, yes. But yours has white anthers and a yellowish throat - I've not seen yet on an C.cartwrightianus. Even I'm impressed by the red 3 styles.
Could it be a mix up with a C. laevigatus form?
What do the experts think?
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some of mine flowering today.It has been a struggle to get them to open with no sun
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David - I agree with Armin & I don't think your plant is C. cartwrightianus - the yellow throat is not correct. It's difficult to tell whether the anthers on your plant are yellow or cream. Although all the saffron crocuses are said to have yellow anthers, I have a C. cartwrightianus in which the anthers are cream. Maybe yours is a form of C. thomasii which turned up in my garden from seed I received as C. cartwrightianus.
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Tony
Nice melantherus markings :)
The cancellatus show quite a variation :)
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Zhirair,
Very intersting to see that the anthers 'embrace' the style, in your C. palasii form.
This phenomenon is common with C. cancellatus , probably in order to ensure self pollination, usually it takes place in the second or third day of flowering.
oron
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May be, I know some Galanthus, but I´m not a croconut. Hope you can help me. What is it?
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WOW it's a beauty
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For David and others C. cartwrightianus http://www.marksgardenplants.com/crocus%20cartwrightianus.html (http://www.marksgardenplants.com/crocus%20cartwrightianus.html)
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No Mark, this can`t be the right name. Have a look to the stigmata!!
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Sorry Hagan the link was for David. I was too quick to to hit post.
I think David's cartwrightianus is the lilac hadriaticus but I'm willing to be shot down
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Hagen,
looks to me like a good dark form of hermoneus
oron
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David - I agree with Armin & I don't think your plant is C. cartwrightianus - the yellow throat is not correct. It's difficult to tell whether the anthers on your plant are yellow or cream. Although all the saffron crocuses are said to have yellow anthers, I have a C. cartwrightianus in which the anthers are cream. Maybe yours is a form of C. thomasii which turned up in my garden from seed I received as C. cartwrightianus.
Gerry and Armin, thanks for adding to my knowledge base ;D I think this is one that Dirk sent me but I will need to check tomorrow and at the same time I will check the colour of the anthers, but I rather think they are white. Armin suggested that it could be a lavigatus form, but if it was it wouldn't have red style branches-would it?? Having looked at Crocus pages Gerry, I favour your thomasii suggestion.
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David - although I think your plant is more likely to be C. thomasii than a lilac C. hadriaticus you will need a hand lens to try & confirm this. If you have such a device, I can let you have the details from Brian Mathew.
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I would agree with Oron about your crocus Hagen. Of course Oron has local knowledge of this plant so his view is most relevant. I have grown C hermoneus but have also seen plants of C cancellatus which were similar.
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Tony,
In order to give a 100% certificate, one should see the corm, I agree with you that often it is very difficult to distinguish the two species.
In Hagen's flower, the style is way up and highly divided above the anthers which is more typical to hermoneus.
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Sorry Hagan the link was for David. I was too quick to to hit post.
I think David's cartwrightianus is the lilac hadriaticus but I'm willing to be shot down
Mark, but doesn't hadriaticus have a yellow throat, or is this variable ???
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David - although I think your plant is more likely to be C. thomasii than a lilac C. hadriaticus you will need a hand lens to try & confirm this. If you have such a device, I can let you have the details from Brian Mathew.
Tony, I have a hand lens, the details from Brian mathew would be very handy please if you have the time.
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David- I'll PM you the details
Gerry
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Thanks for your help, Oron and Tony. How is the corm, much reticulated? Next year I will find it out.
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Crocus tournefortii x boryi
Brian Mathew records that probable hybrids between C. tournefortii & C. boryi can be found at the eastern end of Crete. A few years ago, plants distributed in the bulb trade as C. tournefortii appeared to be this hybrid. This is a first generation seedling from such a supposed hybrid. Although it bears a strong resemblance to C. boryi the C. tournefortii influence still shows since the flower does not close completely at night.
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A very beatiful crocus Hagen. Probably a plant that I only can dream about growing up here in the North :(
Lars
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Lars
Don't be so pessimistic....
C. hermoneos blooms in autumn to follow 3-4 months under heavy layer of snow.
when snow melts leaves appear to follow by seedpods.
I think if you keep it dry and hot during summer you just might have success growing it.
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Lars
I think if you keep it dry and hot during summer you just might have success growing it.
But first you must obtain seed or a corm. ;)
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May be, I know some Galanthus, but I´m not a croconut. Hope you can help me. What is it?
That is stunning Hagen. How 'klein' is it?
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Hagen, do you know where your plant is from? Perhaps you can try to have a
careful look in the pot to clarify the corm question!?
David, I think your plant is of hybrid origin - perhaps cartwrightianus and hadriaticus.
Hadriaticus has a shiny yellow throat, while cartwrightianus hasn't (and also thomasii!)
your plant has a soft yellow intermediate throat.
The whitish/creamy anthers possibly mean, that the plant is infertile, which often
happens with hybrids. I have a plant with similar features, bought as hadriaticus,
but also showing cartwrightianus signs.
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David - I agree with Thomas that your plant may be of hybrid origin - the thought had occurred to me. However, I would be reluctant to come to any definite conclusion on the basis of a photograph. One needs to examine the details of the small-scale morphology & even then the results may not be conclusive.
Edit: By the way, according to Brian Mathew, C. thomasii has a yellow throat.
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Some more crocuses from my collection
crocus speciosus 'pambaka' - very tall (up to 25 cm), very strong stem, that withstands even strong winds, again creamy anthers (collected from the smae area as 'Cloudy Sky'
crocus speciosus 'Goris' - up to 15-17 cm tall with beautiful pattern on the outside petals
Zhirair,
that C. speciosus 'pambaka' looks very strong and healthy, excellent! :o 8)
The difference to "Oxonian" seem to be just the color of the stem. Right?
C.pulchellus "Zephyr" is an easy grower in my garden too. ;)
All the others you show from your collection are also beautiful and desireable.
Armin,
crocus speciosus Pambak is very different comparing to Oxonian. Pambak is more blue, 'Oxonian' is more violate and it is dark when in buds, but during flowering the flowers turn paler. 'Oxonian' has very large flowers of very beautiful shape, but pitty its tubes are rather weak, my samples always lying on the ground.
Unlike 'Oxonian', Pambak is very vigorous, very tall, and has very strong tube.
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Here is a crocus from Northern Greece which has ten petals. I did think it was pulchellus but I am confused by the anthers.I am always confused.If only it had been a galanthus I would not be sat here worrying if the RBS was going bust.
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Tony, you need cheering up.... see here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=918.new#new
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I was hoping Halifax would collapse because I have a loan with them ;D
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Mark
you were supposed to help me identify my amazing crocus not remind me I might soon be having them cooked for dinner
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Are they edible? Cheque first!
To my still learning eye I believe it isnt pulchellus. The fat UU points, I hope, to kotschyanus
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Hagen,
your "unknown" is a beauti, I have not yet seen. :o
David,
I think Thomas is closest with his hybrid explanation. ;)
Gerry,
your C. tournefortii x boryi is lovely. :D I like the strong influence, yellow center of C.boryi.
Zhirair,
thanks. I've sent you a PM.
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Tony - are those yellow blobs in your last pic the anthers or marks in the throat? Or are the anthers missing, transformed into extra petals. The provenance suggests either C. pulchellus or C. cancellatus mazziaricus. The shape of the stigma may point to the latter.
(Be glad you are not involved with Iceland. It's not just the cod which is frozen & battered).
Mark - C. kotschyanus is Turkish
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Gerry
I think you are right although I cannot examine the corm. The yellow is in the throat of the flower and the anthers are white. Good id as I think they are edible!
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Tony - I'm told the Turkish ones are used in pilaff. Presumably the Greek ones could be treated similarly. Useful to know these days.
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Somewhere I read that Greek shepherds toast crocus (cancellatus?) corms like chestnuts - we tried some once but they didn't taste of anything!
You are all way ahead of us, only nudiflorus in full flower and a few kotschyanus outside so far. (We collect the styles of nudiflorus to use as saffron, which is supposed to be why the mediaeval herbalists grew them. Generally get enough for a couple of saffron buns!)
Here's the first flower in my frame, C. banaticus from Janis Ruksans.
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.................
David, I think your plant is of hybrid origin - perhaps cartwrightianus and hadriaticus.
Hadriaticus has a shiny yellow throat, while cartwrightianus hasn't (and also thomasii!)
your plant has a soft yellow intermediate throat.
The whitish/creamy anthers possibly mean, that the plant is infertile, which often
happens with hybrids. I have a plant with similar features, bought as hadriaticus,
but also showing cartwrightianus signs.
Thanks Thomas. I had another look at the plant today but a bumblebee had decimated it. The anthers though were yellow, would this change your view at all??
Nice one Howard.
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Here is a crocus from Northern Greece which has ten petals. I did think it was pulchellus but I am confused by the anthers.
Looks and sounds like pulchellus to me, Tony.
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We collect the styles of nudiflorus to use as saffron, which is supposed to be why the mediaeval herbalists grew them. Generally get enough for a couple of saffron buns!
Howard - Saffron was cultivated in the UK in the past (e.g., Saffron Walden). Since C. sativus does not flower reliably in the UK it has been suggested that this was in fact derived from C. nudiflorus. I wonder if the current practice in Newfoundland dates from that of the original British colonists?
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We collect the styles of nudiflorus to use as saffron, which is supposed to be why the mediaeval herbalists grew them.
Didn't know you could use nudiflorus for saffron! I must get out and collect some. I've got carpets of nudiflorus flowering just now, so should be able to gather enough for quite a few nice fishy dishes.
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Gerry and Martin,
I think I am the first person to grow C. nudiflorus in Newfoundland - it's not a traditional plant. My stock originated in two corms at 75p each from Broadleigh Gardens in 1978. It's the autumn flowering crocus that does best here, and has increased enormously, I must have well over 100 flowers around the garden at present, and it has been passed on to other gardeners in the area. I think our cool damp climate suits it.
My own background is that I came here from the UK in 1968 from an old Devon family of pastry cooks and confectioners, although my own home was Salisbury. Some time in the 1950's a couple of papers were published, one of which pointed out that the locations where it is naturalised in the UK correspond to places where the Knights of St John had their physic gardens and it seems to have hung on from those days in "Lammas fields" which were grazed in winter and summer, but not during spring and autumn when the plants are above ground. The one place I am familiar with is the Warwick racecourse, where they grow in the parking area and on the track itself - or did in the 1990's. (My visits were just to the crocuses, not to the horses!) This used to be a Lammas field. The other paper showed via paper chromatography that the chemicals in the styles were similar to those in C. sativus, which, as you say used to be grown in Saffron Walden, and it was surmised that the Knights grew it for saffron as it's easier to grow than the true saffron crocus. They need lots of manure apparently, and I've never managed to grow them here for long even in pots.
That said, the styles are much smaller, and while they give a yellow colour they don't have the characteristic saffron smell and taste. Still it's something else locally grown! Here endeth the lesson.
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First autumn crocuses here to brighten the season
1. Usual C.kotchianus clump
2.3. Another kotchianus? Any ideas? It is almost white with blue veining. I received it as cartwrightianus which is certainly not
4. C. speciosus - a real giant appr. 20 cm tall
5. C. speciosus - a much smaller plant with the flower 3 times as small as the previous
6.7. C.pulchellus
I would be glad to have any corrections if anything is wrong with naming
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2.3. Another kotchianus? Any ideas? It is almost white with blue veining. I received it as cartwrightianus which is certainly not
The throat markings are blurry and not easy to see clearly in the second pic but do look like kotschyanus, and the flower shape looks right for kotschyanus too.
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Yes it does look like C kotschyanus which can be very pale, almost white.
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Thanks Thomas. I had another look at the plant today but a bumblebee had decimated it. The anthers though were yellow, would this change your view at all??
No David - it still has a soft yellow throat - intermediate between hadriaticus and cartwrightianus.
This feature is in my opinion more important than the anther colour.
Tony W. I also think your crocus is C. pulchellus!
Nice collection Oleg. Tony G already pointed out that kotschyanus is a very variable plant,
so your pale crocus is also kotschyanus.
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Nice collection Oleg !
My C. speciosus Oxonion still is'nt showing in the garden. Should I start worrying ?? ???
Howard,
Love your history lecture ! Very interesting and informative !
Thanks !
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Luc my speciosus are only just coming up in the garden. My white ones, in pots, were up first and are now almost over.
If you own C. pulchellus you have to smell it. I've just brought mine in to a sunyy windowsil for photos. The scent is really good
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Thanks to everyone for clarification and appreciation
Oleg
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Luc my speciosus are only just coming up in the garden. My white ones, in pots, were up first and are now almost over.
Ok - in that case I can still hope ... :-\
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If you own C. pulchellus you have to smell it. I've just brought mine in to a sunyy windowsil for photos. The scent is really good
Mark - I do & I have. Mine just smells of plant. We must have different clones. It's a very attractive crocus though, far more so to my eyes than its relative C. speciosus. If it flowered with the leaves it would be perfect.
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Welcome to a new Croconut - Pip appreciating a pot of Crocus banaticus.
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Ok - in that case I can still hope ...
Yes Luc, mine only came through in the last couple of days. ;)
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If you own C. pulchellus you have to smell it. I've just brought mine in to a sunyy windowsil for photos. The scent is really good
I have a lot of seed-raised pulchellus and I've noticed (especially when you pick the flowers, as I did the other day before the latest rain and wind - to enjoy and use for making crosses) that the scent is quite variable; some have a strong honey-scent, others less so and some hardly any.
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Best scented crocus today is C. hadriaticus- really delicious sweet smell... lovely in the sunshine 8)
I expect that pix will appear in next week's BulbLog ::)
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1 Could someone ID this one please, There is just a ? on the label
2 Crocus niveus blue form.
3 crocus goulimyi main white.
4 Crocus speciosus aitchsionii ?
Please feel free to correct names.
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Crocus hadriaticus
This is the exceptionally handsome form distributed by Anne Wright. There has been a good deal of discussion on the forum concerning the correct name of this form. If we follow Brian Mathew’s last thoughts (2002) it will be known simply as C.hadriaticus since he suggests that the species is so variable that we should “ignore all infraspecific taxa.”
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Gerry, I hope you pressed your nose into those gorgeous flowers?
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Michael - no 1 looks like a very good colour form of C. cartwrightianus.
Edit: on a second look there seems to be a suggestion of a yellow throat? If it is yellow, this would rule out C. cartwrightianus.
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Gerry, I hope you pressed your nose into those gorgeous flowers?
Maggi - that's a treat for tomorrow. Shoot first & smell later is my motto at present. I'm such a hopelessly amateur photographer that all my attention is devoted to getting a half-way acceptable image.
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That Crocus hadriaticus is a real stunner Gerry, and No. is lovely too Michael. Here as some more open today: kotschyanus and pallasii from SRGC seed and serotinus from Portugal.
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Gerry that is really lovely.
I also enjoyed yours Anthony,a sunny day certainly brings them out
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Gerry, I hope you pressed your nose into those gorgeous flowers?
Maggi - that's a treat for tomorrow. Shoot first & smell later is my motto at present. I'm such a hopelessly amateur photographer that all my attention is devoted to getting a half-way acceptable image.
Gerry, your shots of the dark tubed hadriaticus are lovely . 8)
I see you had some sun today in Dunblane, Anthony... it was good crocus opening weather here in Aberdeen too!
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Crocus cartwrightianus
From the widely distributed & very variable collection by Christian, Elliott & Hoog (CEH 613). Greece, Evvia, nr. Polipotamos (1982)
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From my garden today is
the pot of Crocus pulchellus I was smelling earlier. Some difference between full sun and a when a cloud came by
C. nudiflorus
Crocus kotschyanus cappadocicus that doesnt match what is on the Crocus pages. I'll force it to open tomorrow
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1 Could someone ID this one please, There is just a ? on the label
I reckon it could be Crocus medius from flower colour and the red style.
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Thanks Tony, having looked at the pic on your site I will settle for Medius.
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I reckon it could be Crocus medius from flower colour and the red style.
Tony - on the basis of perianth & stigma colour you may well be correct but, according to BM, C. medius has a white throat. This is not obvious from the photo. I remain dubious about identifying plants from photos.
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Crocus yesterdayin my garden.
1+2 Crocus pulchellus Albus from Thomas Huber
3 Crocus mathew
4 Crocus pallasii
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Nice pictures Oleg, especially the fist one.
Crocus kotschianus is easily distingishable plant and as the guys mentioned, you have different colour forms. Both are, indeed, very cute.
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Michael, I'm with Tony, that your ?-Crocus is medius. Gerry, Brian Mathew describes the wild form of medius in his monograph. The plant Michael has is the trade form (which is not pure medius I think, because the wild form's leaves will only grow in spring, while the trade form's leaves grow with the flower!). Have a look at the red much branched style - typically for this plant! Most of the trade forms are virused, but from the photo the plant looks OK.
Speciosus Aichinsonii looks OK to my eye - exactly like the plant I have under that name.
Mark, kotschyanus ssp cappadocius can look exactly like ssp kotschyanus, but it has a hairless throat so you should try to have a look with a lense into the throat. I found it easier to examine this feature if I remove one or two petals :-X :'(
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ok when it's past it's best I'll pull a flower apart
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A few Crocus flowering for me now :
1 & 2 Crocus mathewii - grown from Crocus Group seed
3 & 4 Crocus goulimyi - shows two bicoloured forms. The darker one is actually a deeper colour
5 & 6 Crocus boryi
7 & 8 Crocus cambessedessii - grown from Crocus Group seed. Flowers are quite small
9 Would like an identification please Made a mistake in posting and posted 2 of the inside. Outside photo now on next post
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Michael, I'm with Tony, that your ?-Crocus is medius. Gerry, Brian Mathew describes the wild form of medius in his monograph. The plant Michael has is the trade form (which is not pure medius I think, because the wild form's leaves will only grow in spring, while the trade form's leaves grow with the flower!). Have a look at the red much branched style - typically for this plant!
Thomas - OK I'm persuaded, though the suggestion of yellow is odd. I will have a wild form in flower in a few hours (for the first time) so I can compare. I've never had seed on the trade form - the anthers seem malformed - which might be consistent with it being a hybrid but if it is what are the parents?
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More Crocus
1 Outside of 9 from previous post
2 Crocus kotschyanus?
3 Crocus pulchellus?
4 & 5 Could you please identify
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Marvelous pix Art, Karl et all ! Great to see the diversity within the Crocus family !
Mark, that potful of pulchellus is a real eyecatcher in the sun as well as in the shade !!
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Gerry, I hope you pressed your nose into those gorgeous flowers?
Maggi - just done so. Yes, scented but not strongly. The most powerful scent at the moment comes from C. goulimyi 'Mani White'. Much more potent than any of the C. longifloruscurrently in flower.
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Karl, your pallasii has a very dark throat. I have not seen that before.
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Thanks for your comments and ID folks.
Cheers
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More Crocus
1 Outside of 9 from previous post
2 Crocus kotschyanus?
3 Crocus pulchellus?
4 & 5 Could you please identify
9, and also 2 and 3 in your second post are all pulchellus - no kotschyanus there. 4 &5 appears to have leaves up with the flowers and seems (accordiing to BM) to key out as serotinus. But I may be making a mistake in using his key - e.g. not sure from your photo if the throat is very pale yellow or not, and assuming those out of focus green bits are leaves, also the style...Tony? Thomas? Help!
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Thomas - OK I'm persuaded, though the suggestion of yellow is odd. I will have a wild form in flower in a few hours (for the first time) so I can compare. I've never had seed on the trade form - the anthers seem malformed - which might be consistent with it being a hybrid but if it is what are the parents?
My first thought on seeing Michael's pic was also medius. And I'd also like to know what Thomas thinks the parentage might be if the trade form of medius was a hybrid. You've mentioned that idea to me before, Thomas, and I meant to ask what your thoughts were about possible parents.
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I remain dubious about identifying plants from photos.
I agree that giving IDs of flowers from photos alone can be problematic, especially with snowdrops! :)
But I still feel it's good to have a stab at it, especially if an ID has been requested, and especially if the flower in question is very obviously wrongly named - and if the ID is accompanied by or stimulates discussion of the salient features, similarities, differences that aid ID then it's all educational and hopefully helps someone somewhere. Even if it does mean making stupid mistakes sometimes and having your head bitten off by the more knowledgeable and/or more observant/less stupid forumists. ;D
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Crocus cartwrightianus ex CEH 613
This the plant whose pic I posted yesterday (reply 136). The second flower which emerged today shows multiplication of the floral elements. In structures with radial symmetry this phenomenon is not uncommon in both the plant & animal kingdoms. Although I’ve seen it in several species of crocus C. cartwrightianus seems particularly prone.
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Thomas - OK I'm persuaded, though the suggestion of yellow is odd. I will have a wild form in flower in a few hours (for the first time) so I can compare. I've never had seed on the trade form - the anthers seem malformed - which might be consistent with it being a hybrid but if it is what are the parents?
My first thought on seeing Michael's pic was also medius. And I'd also like to know what Thomas thinks the parentage might be if the trade form of medius was a hybrid. You've mentioned that idea to me before, Thomas, and I meant to ask what your thoughts were about possible parents.
Martin and Gerry, I'm still not sure about the other parent of the medius tradeform, the best (and only) suggestion is
Crocus longiflorus, which has also leaves present at flowering time. But longiflorus has a yellow throat, what the
medius tradeform has not.
Another possibility is, that the tradeform originates from a lowland plant of medius having leaves present at flowering time.
All the wild plants I've seen so far are from more than 1000 meter where no leaves are present until spring.
Perhaps Luit or one of our Dutch friends has a story about this curious plant.
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It's a truly marvelous C. cartwrightianus Gerry ! :o
Beautiful !
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I remain dubious about identifying plants from photos.
I agree that giving IDs of flowers from photos alone can be problematic, especially with snowdrops! :)
Martin - Snowdrops are an unknown country to me. Fritillaries are probably the plants I have had most experience with & here even plants in the flesh can be difficult to identify. I wouldn't disagree that discussions about the ID of photographed plants can be educational. The fact that I prefer living plants, a hand lens & a book (not to mention clay pots) is simply an indication of my age.
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But a suggestion for an ID via photo can be of immense help, if you have no idea what your plant is!
After that you can still use your hand lense and book for 100% confirmation.
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Thomas
Could I have your expert :D view of my Crocus where I asked for help in identification.
Thanks
Arthur
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Thomas
Could I have your expert :D view of my Crocus where I asked for help in identification.
Thanks
Arthur
Sorry, Art, I forgot - but Martin has already given the answer and I agree with him:
first posting no. 9 looks like pulchellus with the bright yellow throat and white anthers
second posting no 4+5 should be serotinus ssp salzmanii if the leaves are present (not obviously from the photo)
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Thomas - it ought to be possible to find out something about the origin of trade C. medius by looking at old bulb catalogues. I would guess that there must be collections of these in Holland.
If the trade plant is a hybrid & C. longiflorus is a parent it's not clear how it could have originated since the two species are widely separated geographically. In cultivation?
In a short account of a trip to Liguria to look at C. medius (AGS Bull. vol 69, Sept 2001) Alan Edwards notes that flowers become significantly smaller at the western end of its range, along the Franco-Italian border. He speculates that this may be the source of the trade form, the early collectors preferring to work "close to the Riviera fleshpots".
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More Crocus
1 Outside of 9 from previous post
2 Crocus kotschyanus?
3 Crocus pulchellus?
4 & 5 Could you please identify
9, and also 2 and 3 in your second post are all pulchellus - no kotschyanus there. 4 &5 appears to have leaves up with the flowers and seems (accordiing to BM) to key out as serotinus. But I may be making a mistake in using his key - e.g. not sure from your photo if the throat is very pale yellow or not, and assuming those out of focus green bits are leaves, also the style...Tony? Thomas? Help!
100% agreement. I have forms of serotinus which closely resemble the plant 4&5 (ssp salzmannii) which can flower with or without the leaves, the southern forms perhaps bsing more likely to flower leafless or almost so.
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Martin - Snowdrops are an unknown country to me. Fritillaries are probably the plants I have had most experience with & here even plants in the flesh can be difficult to identify. I wouldn't disagree that discussions about the ID of photographed plants can be educational. The fact that I prefer living plants, a hand lens & a book (not to mention clay pots) is simply an indication of my age.
Although I don't grow many, I can well imagine the tortuous ID problems that occur with frits. ID-ing snowdrops can also sometimes be a bit of a ganble even with living plants in front of you. But I do agree, seeing a plant at first hand is infinitely preferable to a photo. What we really need on this forum is a tele-transport button so we can whizz plants to one another instantaneously - would solve Lesley's problems with the NZ plant import restrictions too!
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Thomas - it ought to be possible to find out something about the origin of trade C. medius by looking at old bulb catalogues. I would guess that there must be collections of these in Holland.
If the trade plant is a hybrid & C. longiflorus is a parent it's not clear how it could have originated since the two species are widely separated geographically. In cultivation?
In a short account of a trip to Liguria to look at C. medius (AGS Bull. vol 69, Sept 2001) Alan Edwards notes that flowers become significantly smaller at the western end of its range, along the Franco-Italian border. He speculates that this may be the source of the trade form, the early collectors preferring to work "close to the Riviera fleshpots".
I also think it's worth considering the possibility that the trade medius might be a strong-growing and fast-increasing sterile triploid clone which was selected out either in the field by a collector or in the nursery beds in Holland.
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Gerry beautiful cartwrightianus,did you see my plant with doubling of the petals a couple of days ago?
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More Crocus
1 Outside of 9 from previous post
2 Crocus kotschyanus?
3 Crocus pulchellus?
4 & 5 Could you please identify
9, and also 2 and 3 in your second post are all pulchellus - no kotschyanus there. 4 &5 appears to have leaves up with the flowers and seems (accordiing to BM) to key out as serotinus. But I may be making a mistake in using his key - e.g. not sure from your photo if the throat is very pale yellow or not, and assuming those out of focus green bits are leaves, also the style...Tony? Thomas? Help!
100% agreement. I have forms of serotinus which closely resemble the plant 4&5 (ssp salzmannii) which can flower with or without the leaves, the southern forms perhaps bsing more likely to flower leafless or almost so.
It was not a trick question, as I have pots with Crocus that bear no relationship to the label, but 4 & 5 are labelled Crocus serotinus salzmanii - bought at the Bulb sale.
Thanks Martin & Tony for confirmation.
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I also think it's worth considering the possibility that the trade medius might be a strong-growing and fast-increasing sterile triploid clone which was selected out either in the field by a collector or in the nursery beds in Holland.
An interesting suggestion Martin, & one which would not be too difficult to investigate - the chromosome number for wild C. medius is known. It could even be done by an enterprising 6th form or undergraduate biology student. On second thoughts though, I don't suppose departures from the syllabus are encouraged in schools these days - not good for the league tables.
The nature/identity of this plant has bugged me for years. I do wish someone could sort it out.
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Gerry beautiful cartwrightianus,did you see my plant with doubling of the petals a couple of days ago?
Thanks Tony. Yes, I saw your double & probably misidentified it!
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some in flower today
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Very nice Tony. C.pallasii dispathaceus is a striking plant & one I've never seen in the flesh. Did you collect it?
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Gerry
it came from between Silifke and Goksun in S Turkey in 2001. I do not think it is common there.
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:P Finally...
the first Crocus for this season: cancellatus damascenus, Ex Negev Desert.
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I'm adding also a photo of this ssp. in its natural habitat; mountains above 900m in the Negev desert.
it is the first species to bloom in the region, usually before the rain, leaves [2-5] are flat and thick.
It was proposed here by some botanists to upgrad this ssp. to a species level, due to the different characteristics; corm, leaves and the unproportional anthers.
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Oron
Always good to see the Crocus growing in natural conditions. The anthers are amazing and the leaves look more like an Ornithogalum.
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Oron - it's interesting to see the apparently inhospitable conditions in which this crocus grows. Many thanks.
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A couple more Crocus that have sprung to life over the last two days. I have found it impossible to capture the true colour - both are deeper than shown and bluer.
The first was bought as serotinus clusii - I would like confirmation. The second Crocus is unknown to me - could someone please identify.
1 & 2 serotinus clusii?
3,4 & 5 - unknown to me
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Has anyone noticed that both Martin and Oron look as if they have been on secret missions to deliver Cadbury's Milktray - perhaps to a certain young lady up north (there's always a clue)?
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Art - as someone who has expressed scepticism about identifying plants from photos I should no doubt keep quiet, but since I also believe it is not a crime to make mistakes, here goes. No 3 C. longiflorus. No 4, if the stigma is red, also C. longiflorus. If I am right, both should be scented.
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Crocus medius
Raised from seed, ex a collection by Peter Bird & Mike Salmon (BS 376); Italy, Liguria, nr. Carcare
This was kept outside for a few years where it survived but never flowered. Last summer I moved it under cover & kept it dry & cool. This is its first flowering.
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Thats a very nice contrast between the stigma and inner petal
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Here is a nice Crocus bought recently at TileBarn Nursery. Think it is a cross between boryi and laevigatus
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Has anyone noticed that both Martin and Oron look as if they have been on secret missions to deliver Cadbury's Milktray - perhaps to a certain young lady up north (there's always a clue)?
I see your point about the appearance of Oron and Martin....let's hope you.re right about the chocolate ,too ::) ;)
I an so pleased to see all these Crocus..... there just isn't a "dud", is there? They are all FAB!
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A couple more Crocus that have sprung to life over the last two days. I have found it impossible to capture the true colour - both are deeper than shown and bluer.
The first was bought as serotinus clusii - I would like confirmation. The second Crocus is unknown to me - could someone please identify.
1 & 2 serotinus clusii?
3,4 & 5 - unknown to me
I agree with Gerry that 3 and 4 (and also 5) look like longiflorus to me. 1 and 2 look like serotinus - whether serotinus clusii is difficult to say from a photo but if that's the name that the bulbs or seed came with then okay I guess.
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Has anyone noticed that both Martin and Oron look as if they have been on secret missions to deliver Cadbury's Milktray - perhaps to a certain young lady up north (there's always a clue)?
Never Cadbury's Milk Tray for our Maggi, Anthony, surely! I have her down for a midnight delivery of Green and Black's 85% cocoa solids organic dark choccy (and a single red rose of course). ;)
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Martin, I just knew you knew how to give a girl a good time....... :-*
Remind me to show you my crocus by moonlight..... :)
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I know it's after the 9 o'clock watershed but really......
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I know it's after the 9 o'clock watershed but really......
You mean there's a watershed for chocolate and crocus? :o :-[ :-X What next? No narcissus without a chaperone? :'(
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What next? No narcissus without a chaperone?
For respectable girls of good family, absolutely not.
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Can someone identify this one for me please pics 1 and 2
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At long last a few of mine beginning to flower
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Can someone identify this one for me please pics 1 and 2
Hi Ian
I think it is Crocus niveus in a pale blue form. I have a similar which is Crocus niveus Blue Shades. Thank you for these nice pics
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Ian
I agree with Dominique - NIVEUS :)
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Has anyone noticed that both Martin and Oron look as if they have been on secret missions to deliver Cadbury's Milktray - perhaps to a certain young lady up north (there's always a clue)?
Anthony, with no offence to any of the girls up north I have enough missions in my life allready..... I prefer re pot my Crocuses ;)
Art, your Boryi X laevigathus is just beautiful, very delicate, usually I'm not into 'hand made' hybrids but this one is really nice.
Does Peter still sell it?
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Has anyone noticed that both Martin and Oron look as if they have been on secret missions to deliver Cadbury's Milktray - perhaps to a certain young lady up north (there's always a clue)?
Art, your Boryi X laevigathus is just beautiful, very delicate, usually I'm not into 'hand made' hybrids but this one is really nice.
Does Peter still sell it?
Oron
It was bought last Sunday. A natural occurring cross found in the wild by Peter & Melvyn.
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So now its even better... ;)
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Crocus serotinus ssp salzmannii.
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At long last a few of mine beginning to flower
Ian - your C. tournefortii is really handsome. It's what I think of as the 'old form', the one most frequently seen a few years ago. These days most of the trade forms seem to be much paler in colour &, to my eyes, rather less attractive.
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Thanks Dom and Arthur for the ID
Also thanks Gerry for your comments on my Tournefortii. It is a favourite since it keeps open whatever
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The first Crocus cambessedesii are in flower - I took this pictures yesterday during a hike through the mountains - a quite variable species. Here some examples:
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nr2:
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nr3:
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... the last ones:
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Hans - its fascinating to see the variability of C. cambessedesii in the wild. Many thanks. Your first one seems closest to the form most commonly seen in cultivation in the UK.
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Another joy of October - SRGC Seedex crocus seed germinating well!
Has Crocus sieberi nivalis now been elevated to species level (C. nivalis, SRGC #2007/1018)?
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Here is crocus medius as supplied by a British nursey though probably not grown on by him. Can someone let me have their opinion as to whether this is virused? It does seem to have the tell tale marks
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Hans you have a great camera. Great shots of the Crocus and what a stunning variety
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some flowers from this weekend:
Crocus gilanicus
`` medius 'Millesimo'
`` medius from Mt.Bignone , thanks Thomas
`` niveus in three forms, thanks Tony
`` oreocreticus
`` vallicola, a late flowering form
`` banaticus, a more blue form, not lilac
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Dirk - Very nice. The C. medius 'Millesimo' looks similar to the normal trade form (though virus free) while the C. banaticus looks like a very attractive colour form. Where did both come from?
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Here is crocus medius as supplied by a British nursey though probably not grown on by him. Can someone let me have their opinion as to whether this is virused? It does seem to have the tell tale marks
Ian - looks to me as though it might be. You would be doing a public service (to us & the nursery itself) if you named the source.
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Here is crocus medius as supplied by a British nursey though probably not grown on by him. Can someone let me have their opinion as to whether this is virused? It does seem to have the tell tale marks
Ian - looks to me as though it might be. You would be doing a public service (to us & the nursery itself) if you named the source.
Probably not necessary to name them. ANY nursery supplying C medius is likely to have sourced their stock either directly or indirectly from the same, virused, dutch industry stocks. Anyone with good clean stock is likely to advertise the fact and probably charge a bit more for it!
I find that this crocus is very virus prone or perhaps it is just very quick to show the symptoms. I have had clean stock twice in the last 10 years only to lose it quickly to virus. Martin B sent me some. I planted half in the garden and half in a pot, hoping that at least the open garden stock might be safe however this year I am doubtful even of these :(
(Thomas - so far the 4 corms that you sent are OK and I am keeping them away from the main collection.)
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Sorry to disagree Tony but I think it is useful to name the source since it's not clear that all C. medius comes from Holland. A few years ago Kath Dryden distributed the 'Oliver Wyatt' form & this seemed to be virus free. Last year I obtained some plants from Hythe Alpines (possibly the same form & relatively expensive) & these also seemed virus free in their first year; whether they are so this year remains to be seen.
It does seem that 'trade' C. medius has been virused for a very long time. It was the first crocus I ever grew some 30 years ago & those plants were virused though I didn't realise this at the time; I just thought that their ugly appearance was an indication that they didn't like the conditions I gave them.
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Hmmm ..... Yes the Oliver Wyatt form is the one which does still get passed around but only by the smaller 'independant' growers. And the relevant word is 'grower'. These people are sadly few and far between and as you note the corms are likely to be relatively expensive.
I do know of a well known bulb supplier who has had virused (ex holland) stock on their nursery. I pointed this out to them of course but the owner is a friend and I don't want to name them. I don't really feel comfortable naming and shaming although I have been drawn into such discussions before.
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"Anyone with good clean stock is likely to advertise the fact and probably charge a bit more for it!"
Charge for them!? I want them back! ;D
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I did not ask for any of your very fine medius Mark as I have such a poor track record! I'm trying to get any that I do grow to set seed but even the OW form is reluctant to set any .... even when crossed with other forms from TH :(
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I should have added that Philanthropy begins at home ;D
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Thanks for all your comments re the Medius. It was probably my own fault as I know there is rather a lot of virus about in Medius and although I have a couple from grower sources and hopefully some 2 year seedlings I just wanted a quick fix for this year. I will not name the nursrey as I think the nurseryman is a responsible one and my own preference would be that I would rather point this out in a less public way.
Can you please advise should these be disposed of or can they be kept in isolation whilst flowering?
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The purist would say don't risk it but if you keep it isolated you should be OK. It occurred to me recently that the practice of removing dying flowers to avoid botrytis risks may aid the spread of virus so beware any contact.
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Some crocuses this weekend
1,2 Crocus speciosus albus (bees if sleepy are still at work)
Can anyone help with the ID of this
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Obviously everyone is entitled to their own views on "naming & shaming" but I think there are occasions where it is a public service. I remember a fairly critical thread on Miniature Bulbs earlier this year.
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Gerry (and others) I am happy to share my info on bulb supplier/s privately through PMs, just don't want to go public on someone who has a justifiably good reputation for almost all they do.
Here are a few that flowered in last weeks sunshine ... there are lots right now but I don't want to repeat plants that have already had good exposure here!
Crocus gilanicus 'dark form' - well its not as dark as the last time it flowered but it is more coloured than the usual form. It is also smaller flowered, quite different in shape. Not sure what to make of it but this is a little grown species and the wild variation may be much greater than that seen in cultivated plants.
Crocus cancellatus - form used to be distributed under the name Cilicicus (please correct me if I have mis-spelt this). Very large flowered and nicely marked outside. I have grown it for years but it does not increase much.
Crocus hadriaticus ssp parnassicus - White with a white throat. Ssp hadriaticus has a yellow throat.
Crocus serotinus ssp salzmannii - some new seed raisings are flowering now. Very similar to each other they all present good sized mid lilac flowers. Good to have clean, healthy stock of a taxa which has been decimated by virus here in recent years. ALL suspect plants are quarantined away from the main collection now. This means any with deformed or mis-shapen flowers. Any with yellow blotches/streaks in the leaves are executed immediately, no quarantine for them. Mis-shapen flowers can be just a seasonal blip so I quarantine these to watch for developments.
Finally for now Crocus pallasii, a gift from Franz. Thanks Franz! The narrower petalled forms often seem to be the most generous with their flowers while the broader petalled one that I have raised from seed is beautiful but has fewer flowers.
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After a long break due to bad weather, I was finally able to make some new photos in the last days,
Enjoy it!
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Magnificent as always Thomas :-*
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We had a couple of hours of sun and it brought out a few crocus
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Thomas, that is very nice. When I order crocus next year, I will be getting the fall ones you had suggested. Would the same leaf compost/sand mix that I use for spring crocus work for fall, or does some gravel/perlite need to be mixed in?
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Lovely stuff both Tonys and Thomas
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Magnificent pictures everyone. Tony it's interesting to see how different your robertianus is from the form I posted earlier (Reply #47).
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Has Crocus sieberi nivalis now been elevated to species level (C. nivalis, SRGC #2007/1018)?
Anyone?
Full species status for this taxon seems unlikely given that BM (The Plantsman, June 2002) cites variability in wild populations that overlaps C. sieberi sublimis.
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Ashley
I have opened two windows and compared our mutual robertianus. I think in fact they are very similar and perhaps vary slightly in shape because of the length of time they have been open and mine is slightly pinker but this may just be the light in which the photgraph was taken. I have possibley another two to open and I will photograph them if we get enough sun and put them up for you to see.
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Has Crocus sieberi nivalis now been elevated to species level (C. nivalis, SRGC #2007/1018)?
Anyone?
Full species status for this taxon seems unlikely given that BM (The Plantsman, June 2002) cites variability in wild populations that overlaps C. sieberi sublimis.
Don't quote me ;) but I have yet to grow any C sieberi nivalis that I could key out as that taxa. The overlap with ssp sublimis may be more than just geographical.
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The show does go on people - wonderful pix everyone !
Thomas, I hope the weather is somewhat clement to your great display ! ;)
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I hope so, too, Luc, but the forecast doesn't agree with me :-[
Ashley, can't tell you anything about the botanical level of sieberi ssp nivalis, but I CAN tell you,
if the seed germinates now it's likely to be NOT C. sieberi which is a spring flowering species.
Crocus robertianus is variable from white to blue. I've also seen bicolored forms and plants with
narrow petals as well as rounded petals. Mine are flowering since September and still new flowers
are coming out of the ground - see below.
13 - C. robertianus
18 - An ugly mutation of Crocus asumaniae with 14 petals, 7 styles and anthers :P
01 - C. wattiorum - one of the best in autumn
07+06+03 - different forms of C. biflorus ssp melantherus, the autumn flowering biflorus ssp with black anthers
02 - C. cancellatus ssp lycius
21 - This one came to me from Dr. Kerndorff. It looks like a pink mathewii but was ID'd as C. pallasii
47 - C. banaticus 'Snowdrift', received two years ago as two tiny corms, this year I've 3 flowers!
41 - C. goulimyi ssp leucanthus, the pale ssp of goulimyi from SE-Peloponnese
OLEG: Your blue crocus is C. speciosus!
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Thomas
Spectacular :D :) :D
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Thomas,
stunning ! :o
C. pallassii is a little treasure !!
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Ashley, can't tell you anything about the botanical level of sieberi ssp nivalis, but I CAN tell you,
if the seed germinates now it's likely to be NOT C. sieberi which is a spring flowering species.
Crocus robertianus is variable from white to blue. I've also seen bicolored forms and plants with
narrow petals as well as rounded petals.
Thanks Tony and Thomas.
Interesting point about germination time Thomas; I hadn't noticed before that spring flowerers germinate later :-[
Yes the robertianus form I have is very much at the rounded, white end of the spectrum compared to yours and Tony Willis'.
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A spectacular display Thomas. Congratulations!
Does the C. asumaniae show these multiple structures every year or is this a one-off? If the latter, I suspect it is the result of a physiological disturbance rather than a genuine mutation. The saffron crocuses seem prone to doing this - I posted a similar C. cartwrightianus recently.
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Thanks for the compliments everybody!
No, Gerry, it doesn't show the extra petals every year - first time since I received it in 2006.
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Thomas,
Beautiful species,
do you know the origin of this particular palasii?
It is really interesting.
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Thomas, is this "pallasii" Crocus pallasii hkep9814 2008-10-07-21.jpg not look more like a Crocus asumaniae? I see it has a good provenance... HK and EP!!
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Thomas, what a great selection of crocuses! Here the C. speciosus 'Albus' you gave me are having their first flowers - beautiful, thank you!
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Annew,
I also like your Allium callimischon ;D
Here is my Crocus matthewii a little bit damaged :(
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/11/84/35/03/img_2610.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=316&u=11843503)
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Thomas, is this "pallasii" Crocus pallasii hkep9814 2008-10-07-21.jpg not look more like a Crocus asumaniae? I see it has a good provenance... HK and EP!!
It looks very like C mathewii to me and as this and C asumaniae are very close (possibly the same species?) I'm not really at issue with Maggi. The style is not the typical C pallasii 3 short branches.
Here is an unusual Crocus pallasii form Samos which masquerades as C mathewii. (Not my own plant I'm afraid :()
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Thomas,Beautiful species, do you know the origin of this particular palasii? It is really interesting.
Thomas, is this "pallasii" Crocus pallasii hkep9814 2008-10-07-21.jpg not look more like a Crocus asumaniae? I see it has a good provenance... HK and EP!!
I just had a look at HK's notes to find out the origin of the plant, when I noticed that he
named it "pallasii ??" ! The original plant came from Antalya, so it can also be asumaniae or mathewii.
Will ask him next time we phone. In every case it's a beauty, but its flowers did only last one day :-[
Hope my handpollinating was succesfull!
I had 5 corms, but only 1 was flowering, so it will be interesting to see if they all look the same next year.
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Anne, my speciosus Albus looks like it feels well in your pot! :D
To join Fred's and Tony's blue-throated beauties here some photos of my
03 - Crocus mathewii at it's best time
05 - close up of the dark mathewii throat
16 - C. medius shining in the sun
54 - a dark selection of C. medius
66 + 46 - C. longiflorus grown from wild collected seed - note the variation in the plants
04 - C. thomasii - a real beauty just like its namesake ;D :P
55 - bicoloured C. niveus with beautiful blueish outer petals and C. wattiorum in the background
19 - C. gilanicus from Iran, the "standard" form, not as beautiful as Tony's dark plant
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Super images Thomas ... as always.
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It never seems to stop Thomas ! :o
Beautiful stuff.
The dark C. medius is a real beauty !
(as are all the others ...)
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Thomas
Beautiful Crocus as always.
The bicoloured niveus is difficult to photograph to show the delicate blue/lavender tepals. On screen the plant looks white to me, yet I am sure it is exactly like my own plants. Filming in bright sunlight seems to wash out the colour. I found the same problem with the bicoloured goulimyi.
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The first Crocus to flower here is C. banaticus "snowdrift" There are five flowering corms (one hiding) and numerous little non-flowering ones. I also have C. banaticus "snowflake" but it is still in bud.
[attach=1]
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Thomas
The bicoloured niveus is difficult to photograph to show the delicate blue/lavender tepals. On screen the plant looks white to me, yet I am sure it is exactly like my own plants. Filming in bright sunlight seems to wash out the colour. I found the same problem with the bicoloured goulimyi.
Art - I have the same problem. I wonder if the photographers have any advice/suggestions?
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Greetings Jim
I said it was a stunning Crocus and now the Forum members can enjoy it.
Look forward to many more postings. :) :D :)
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Jim
Can you please tell us where you garden - add a note in member's details.
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Jim,
your C. banaticus "snowdrift" are splendid !!
I don't grow this form but I'll try to find it ...
Best
Fred
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Welcome Jim and what a nice start You had :)
Kind regards
Joakim
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Yes indeed, welcome Jim, what a wonderful picture to start off with. Beautiful flowers.
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RE washed out pictures.
This is of course overexposure and comes from that the camera sets the exposure automatically to an average where the light flower is a rather small part in the whole picture.
What you can do depends on the circumstances and the camera.
#1: put a light neutral grey card behind the plant that takes up most of the picture. OR
#2: set down the exposure by one to two full stops. OR
#3: Set the camera's sensor to spotreading. OR
#4: Use an oldfashioned camera using film. OR......
There are advantages and disadvantages with all methods.
And one must remember to set #2 and 3 back.
agöte
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Welcome to Croconutland Jim !!
Great start - thanks for showing !!! :D
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The bicoloured niveus is difficult to photograph to show the delicate blue/lavender tepals. On screen the plant looks white to me, yet I am sure it is exactly like my own plants. Filming in bright sunlight seems to wash out the colour. I found the same problem with the bicoloured goulimyi.
Arthur, after having a closer look at my niveus photo I have to admit, that it is not show the blue as
in reality and I have better photos of this plant.
I agree that white flowers are very difficult to photograph, I often focus on the leaves or the soil/grit
and turn the camera in the right position after focussing (automatic-modus). If this doesn't work well
I hold my finger in front of the flower for focussing and remove it for shooting. The darker focus point
sets the exposure time down and the object will look better than focusing on pure white.
Jim, welcome in Crocus heaven. You have a wonderful 'Snowdrift' collection, when did you start and how
many corms were that? By the way, did you notice, that the lower flower has 4 petals?
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[
Jim, welcome in Crocus heaven. By the way, did you notice, that the lower flower has 4 petals?
Thomas
Platinum star for you noticing this. ;D 8) ;D
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Hello to everyone. Thank you for the nice welcome and thank you to Maggi for the assist on the first post. The only thing I do worse than taking pictures is using a computer. The C. banaticus "Snowdrift" was a gift from a good friend. It started as one corm a few years ago. I planted it in deep shade in a bed devoted to woodland plants. It has enjoyed this bed and increased to the point that I was able to give some away this past year. I have a corm of C. banaticus "Snowflake" nearby but it has yet to open up. I live in the States on the east coast where most of my fall blooming bulbs have yet to flower.
Jim
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Welcome from me too Jim that's a lovely banaticus, and glad to see that you have let us know where you garden.
Here's one of mine from today. Crocus medius is not the rarest, and the literature says it's one of the easiest but in my book it's one of the loveliest.
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Hi Thomas,
Good eyes. I'm ashamed to say that I did not see that. I have been going back to school at nights and have not been able to spend the time I normally would.
Jim
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I have been going back to school at nights
One of my sisters went to night school...... now she can read perfectly in the dark.... ;)
Jim, great to have you aboard!
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Is that why I only enjoy light reading, Maggi?
Welcome Jim.
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.... but not the Sun!!!!! :D
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That was Express Cliff, did you Mail it or use the Telegraph? In any case it Mirrored my words exactly as is normally the case in these Independent Times.
No more newspapers (Ed.)
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Pity the humble Observer, David ...
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I noticed this today and realised that it was where I'd planted some Crocus speciosus 'Albus' years ago (1998 according to my notes - Dutch source). The last time I saw a flower there was 2004 and I thought they'd died out.
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That is strange, Howard.... good, though!! Gives hope for all those strangely empty spaces we all have here and there!
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As you know Maggie speciosus tends to split up into tiny cormlets, so I presume this is what happened, and one of them has finally reached flowering size. I have a patch of 'lawn' that looks wonderfully green in spring due to all the C. speciosus leaves - but I almost never see any flowers there. The ones that come up in other places often have white anthers indicating some pulchellus blood, maybe they are better.
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Crocus longiflorus
A form from Norman Stevens (Cambridge Bulbs).
The colour should be slightly more blue.
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Fantastic topic! amazing pictures from all :o
This evening I was looking for these other flowers, and I had a magical sighting: millions of Crocus serotinus subsp. salzmannii in bloom.
I found also an hypochromatic form, pure white.
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Fantastic Rafa. It warms my heart to see these natural scenes, I only wish I could be there with you.
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Whaou Rafa, for this time, I'll leave you the Crocus, and I'll keep the mushroom ;D
Amazing pictures,
thank's,
Fred
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... millions of Crocus serotinus subsp. salzmannii in bloom.
What a sight :o
Great variability in this population too Rafa (second crocus pic especially).
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Gerry,
Wonderful C. longiflorus - excellent picture as well !!!!
Rafa,
You're making us all green with envy !!
Thanks for the walk ! :D
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Breathtaking pictures of C.serotinus in nature, Rafa.
I would be obliged if anyone could identify this crocus which turned up now in the place of spring flowering C. imperatii. Is it a form of C. speciosus? (Rather tiny)
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Yes, Oleg this is Crocus speciosus!
Rafa, I love your Crocus meadow - looks like it contains some beautiful flowers worth a selection!
Some more Crocus speciosus from my garden:
20+39 - Form with a beautiful veining and a wonderful scent, possibly the cultivar 'Artabir'
21+22 - This beauty was found in 2005, selected and named after my daughter C. speciosus 'Celine'. Since that time it
has increased very well and makes a beautiful display with its extra large and strong standing flowers
19 - another beauty found this year and selected for separate increasing
23+24 - C. speciosus 'Blue Web' a selection of my friend Leonid Bondarenko
08 - Received as C. speciosus 'Artuischenko' - never heard of it, but perhaps someone can give me some information about this plant!?
61 - C. pulchellus Albus
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Incredible topic everyone ... and I'm not really a bulb fanatic!
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20+39 - Form with a beautiful veining and a wonderful scent, possibly the cultivar 'Artabir'
Thomas, I don't see much difference in your Artabir and the one in the Conn. Collection.
In your plant the petals are slightly more pointed.
For the other Croconuts here a picture of the one in the Conn. Coll.
Crocus spec. Artabir
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Luit, there's an important difference: The strong veining.
The "International Checklist of Hyacints and miscelaneous bulbs" (KAVB 1991)
describes 'Artabir' as: Light blue with dark veins!
Also Dix describes a strong scent on his old website, which the CC form doesn't have.
Here another photo of the plant where it's visible much better:
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Crocus banaticus yesterday, just as well as its gone over today.
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Thomas, the Tonys, Rafa, Gerry, and everyone else who's posted these wonderful pictures..... Thank You!! Some absolute beauties in there that I do so wish I was growing here. ::) Rafa, seeing the wild salzmanii is VERY cool. As was said, so much variation. Great stuff!!!!!!
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Rafa,
You're making us all green with envy !!
:D
You're right Luc, but some of us might be red with embarrassment at having to admit it! ;) ;D ;D
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;D ;D ;D
Ashley, I even have to admit that I'm NOT colourblind.. ::)
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Luit, there's an important difference: The strong veining.
The "International Checklist of Hyacints and miscelaneous bulbs" (KAVB 1991)
describes 'Artabir' as: Light blue with dark veins!
Also Dix describes a strong scent on his old website, which the CC form doesn't have.
Here another photo of the plant where it's visible much better:
Thomas, I think the one I showed is likely the plant of KAVB Checklist 1991.
The Checklist of 1958 has the same description.
I presume your plants are ex. Dix??
Bur Mr. Dix used to buy almost all his bulbs in the trade.
Only a few selected specials were grown on their nursery and I believe they did
not grow the cheaper bulbs themselves.
As it seems to be with many old cultivars, this one too must have changed
or mixed up with others, during many years of cultivation.
Changing over the years is very possible with an old cultivar which was originally selected from Caucasus Forms.
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Yes, Luit. My plants were from Dix, bought in 2003 as "speciosus mixed" NOT as Artabir.
The dark veined plants were selected by me from the others.
I agree with you that the old cultivars can possibly never be identified 100% and this
is a real pity, but I won't stop to select beautiful forms which are worth cultivating in future.
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I got some Crocus bulbs some years ago from a very reliable source under the name of C tournefortii. Today when I took some pictures I found those flowers. Obviously not C tournefortii. After some check in my books I came to the conclusion that it ought to be C boryi. Can that be a correct conclusion?
Someone must have made a mix up. That someone is most likely myself!
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Kenneth please tell us: Why do you think it is not tournefortii ???
The pale blue flowers look more like tournefortii than the generally white coloured boryi to my eyes!
And I would like to know if you grow these wintergreen Crocus outside?
With or without protection? A friend from Sweden told me he wont like to
grow these plants outside in his climate but if you grow them he can also do that.
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Rafa,
Crocus serotinus subsp. salzmannii in bloom is a sight for the gods. Thanks!
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OK, that's the problem with pictures. In reality it is shining white and not light blue. That's the reason why I am suspicious.
Yes I have it outside since 2006 in a well drained raised bed. The bulb is planted in a layer of sand. We have mild winters in the southwest of Sweden. The problem is much rain both in summer and in winter.
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Yesterday I brought some Crocus inside to force them to open for some photos
lost label
lost label - same pot
close up of the style
a very pale speciosus with huge style bought as C. serotinus salzmanii
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Great to see that your crocus does so well outside Kenneth. I have speciosus in the garden but they have just started to push out of the ground the last week. If the weather continues to be mild I hope that I might see some flowers soon.
Lars
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Crocus medius
Although this is the widely available trade form, this stock seems to be free of virus. It was obtained from Hythe Alpines, an excellent UK nursery which unfortunately closed down earlier this year. I think it may be the so-called ‘Oliver Wyatt’ form.
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Gerry, I posted a picture of my Crocus medius a couple of days ago (bought this year from Potterton's) on Reply 260. Can you tell from my picture if it is virused please?
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Crocus robertianus
From a 1989 collection by Antoine Hoog (AH8956), Greece, Ioanina.
Slightly past its best.
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Going back to your picture in post 260 of page 18 of this thread, David, I do think there looks to be some sign of virus streaks in the flowers..... sorry :-X
Gerry, your photo is not so clear, but I seem to see a few dodgy lines there, too.... hope I'm wrong :-\
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Gerry, I posted a picture of my Crocus medius a couple of days ago (bought this year from Potterton's) on Reply 260. Can you tell from my picture if it is virused please?
David - I saw your pic when it was posted & I did think it possible that your plant might be virused. Most Dutch imports seem to be. However it is not easy to be certain from photos unless the plants are really badly affected. The symptoms range from colour streaks on the petals to severe distortion of the flowers.
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I was off a couple of days. I still need to work off an immense number of contributions. :P
Super crocus pictures from everybody.
Rafa, extremely intriguing to see the color distribution of wild C. serotinus ssp. salzmanni 8)
Here are a few pictures from last weekend. I like the C. nudiflorus which I have the first time in flower. Thanks to Dirk ;)
Really different to the "standard" speciosus is the cultivar "Aino" which I receipt late September from PC Nijssen.
The flower was not yet full open when I took the picture.
A real stunner in my eyes.
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Gerry, good luck!
Armin, what super pix.... so much to admire about the shape , form and markings of these crocus 8)
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Gerry, your photo is not so clear, but I seem to see a few dodgy lines there, too.... hope I'm wrong :-\
Maggi - I think/hope it may be my photo. In the flesh the flower looks OK. Time will tell.
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Gerry, I posted a picture of my Crocus medius a couple of days ago (bought this year from Potterton's) on Reply 260. Can you tell from my picture if it is virused please?
David, I had the same thoughts as Maggi. Sorry.
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OK, that's the problem with pictures. In reality it is shining white and not light blue. That's the reason why I am suspicious.
Kenneth, despite the white colour I would still point for C. tournefortii. The long style doesn't look like boryi.
I have a white form of C. tournefortii that turns to bright blue after one or two days of flowering.
Please have a look at your plant in the dark - C. tournefortii remains open at night!
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Fine pictures Armin. Yes that 'Aino' is a particular delight.
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Kenneth, despite the white colour I would still point for C. tournefortii. The long style doesn't look like boryi.
Kenneth - I agree with Thomas that the long style doesn't look like C. boryi. The hybrid C. tournefortii x boryi is a possibility. This is white, stays partially open at night & the ones I had were quite difficult to distinguish from C. tournefortii. A few years ago this was quite frequently found in the bulb trade masquerading as C. tournefortii. I understand that a pure white form of C. tournefortii has been selected in Germany but I don't know when this was first distributed. It was available in 2006 in the UK.
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Thomas & Gerry, thank you for your comments. There is one little problem. I have the garden at my summer house and I am not there so often at nights this time of the year. My first thought was that I have got a white form of C tournefortii. As I have not heard of that, I started to think of something else and therefore my hypothesis of C boryi. I must take a serious discussion with my friend who supplied me with the bulbs, Jimmy Persson in the botanical garden of Gothenburg. I will come back with a report and maybe some better pictures.
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I think my post was lost ..
Here is Crocus laevigatus from Crete
(http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/11/84/35/03/img_7310.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=328&u=11843503)
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Hi Fred,
very nice Crocus laevigatus
Here some pics from me
Crocus biflorus ssp.melantherus
cancellatus ssp.pamphylicus
ochroleucus
robertianus in two forms
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Gerry, I posted a picture of my Crocus medius a couple of days ago (bought this year from Potterton's) on Reply 260. Can you tell from my picture if it is virused please?
David, I had the same thoughts as Maggi. Sorry.
Oh well, you can't win 'em all. As my old Dad used to say 'be happy with a score draw every now and then' ;D
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Fred - I agree with Dirk, a very nice C. laevigatus. And what a superb photo! I wish I could take pictures like that.
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I have Crocus laevigatus out now. Also C. longiflorus and C. niveus 'Blue Form'.
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Thanks all for such fine pics and gorgeous plants. Some of mine now, not so interesting perhaps
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suite
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suite
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suite
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suite
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suite. Here, you can see an error which was sent me under the name : Crocus sativus Albus
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the end !!! here two forms of Crocus speciosus Albus, one with rounded petals and an other with acute ones, and a very odd looking Crocus speciosus sent me under the name Crocus pulchellus Zephyr but without stigmate and anthers very pale yellow
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Wonderful Crocus pix from everyone!
Do, it is really good to see your lovely flowers enjoying life out in the sunshine.... and very kind of YOU to send US these pictures as a gift on YOUR birthday!! I hope the day is a fun day for you!! :-*
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This morning, ochroleucus albus.
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Oh well, you can't win 'em all. As my old Dad used to say 'be happy with a score draw every now and then' ;D
David - may I suggest that you report the virus problem to Rob Potterton? I have always found Pottertons to be a very responsible nursery.
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Oh well, you can't win 'em all. As my old Dad used to say 'be happy with a score draw every now and then' ;D
David - may I suggest that you report the virus problem to Rob Potterton? I have always found Pottertons to be a very responsible nursery.
I sent Rob an Email last night and there was a reply in my Inbox this morning and that after a round trip of over 400 miles for him yesterday. I fully agree, a very fair and responsible nursery.
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Great set of plants Dominique, and a very happy birthday to you.
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Dominique-
Happy Birthday!
Gerry
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Very happy birthday from me too Dominique !!!
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I have Crocus laevigatus out now. Also C. longiflorus and C. niveus 'Blue Form'.
Anthony,
a very beautiful "blue" crocus series you show us. 8) C. leavigatus is pretty nice :D
And I would be happy my C. longiflorus become just as pretty as yours.
They only show noses above gound and I'm not sure they will still flower :-\.
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the end !!! here two forms of Crocus speciosus Albus, one with rounded petals and an other with acute ones, and a very odd looking Crocus speciosus sent me under the name Crocus pulchellus Zephyr but without stigmate and anthers very pale yellow
Dominique,
a happy birthday to you! What a crocus flower show :o
Your C. sativus "albus" seems to be a flower-willingly C. hadriaticus, right?
I can add to your odd looking Crocus speciosus more horrid looking versions of genetically defect C. kotschyanus... :o
I purchased them as C. ochroleucus which did not flower but rapidly increase ::) This autuum I lifted the corms and gave a new place. A few started flowering now but not normal as you can see.
Relucting I'll compost them all...about 80 fat corms :'(
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Dom
Fantastique!!! Some of the plants are very familiar but it is aways interesting and informative to see the different ways we grow our plants. I especially liked the climps of C goulimyi and the C cancellatus in the first post.
There was a shot labelled C niveus which might be C hadriaticus but I could not read the label in the photo.
(I have received you letter - thanks. You are on the list)
Bon Anniversaire :)
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Some nameless Crocus. Who can help me?
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Dom fantastic plants such a great display. I see a lot are in plastic pots plunged. Do you cover these with anything for bad weather? Oh and Happy birthday
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Here is a strange C. speciosus Albus and I didn't use the shear. ;D
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Some nameless Crocus. Who can help me?
Hans, I'm not sure about 1 and 2. But Picture 3 is kotschyanus, 4 is goulimyi, and 5 and 6 look like pulchellus albus.
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Dominique
Belated Birthday wishes - I was out all day yesterday and on my return the Forum was down.
Beautiful Crocus, well grown. I must put more of mine in the garden next year
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Crocus cartwrightianus
Edit: I now wonder whether this is 'pure' cartwrightianus or some hybrid. The flowers close at night whereas those of cartwrightianus stay open.
Second edit: The flowers now remain open at night so perhaps it is the true plant.
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The white form Gerry?
Taken today is the ?normal form
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Taken today is the ?normal form
Mark - with such a variable plant, I don't know whether there is any such thing as the 'normal' form. In any case, yours is very handsome.
I wish my pics were as good as yours!
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Gerry no reason why they cant be. Email me your original and I'll have a look and maybe repost it.
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Thanks Mark - I'll PM you regarding how to go about it.
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Crocus serotinus subsp. clusii cv ‘Poseidon’
This is a very vigorous cultivar; one corm obtained last year has produced six flowering-size corms this year.
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Thank you all who wish me happy birthday. It is always a little sad day with one year older but it happens at a marvellous crocuses season and it is great to see that friends of this forum forget nobody all along the year. Thank you universal Maggi and all others
dom
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Dom
Fantastique!!! Some of the plants are very familiar but it is aways interesting and informative to see the different ways we grow our plants. I especially liked the climps of C goulimyi and the C cancellatus in the first post.
There was a shot labelled C niveus which might be C hadriaticus but I could not read the label in the photo.
(I have received you letter - thanks. You are on the list)
Bon Anniversaire :)
Hi Tony. Thank you. I am glad to be on the list now. My niveus which flower for the first time comes from seeds sent to me by Munchen Botanic Garden. In fact it is hadriaticus
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Dom fantastic plants such a great display. I see a lot are in plastic pots plunged. Do you cover these with anything for bad weather? Oh and Happy birthday
Hi Ian
I cover the pots with glass when the wether is too wet or cold, but the ground is low !!!
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Some nameless Crocus. Who can help me?
Hi Johannes,
I think n° 3 kotschyanus
n° 4 serotinus clusii
N° 5-6 ochroleucus
for the n° 1-2, perhaps tournefortii or ...???
Dom
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No1 is the most interesting as at first glance I thought it and No2 were both C cancellatus ssp cancellatus. However the white anthers of No1 make this C cancellatus ssp pamhyllicus BUT from Syria?? Hopefully Oron will take a look at these and offer his opinion, he may have seen these in the wild.
Dom is right about 3, 5 & 6 but 4 is C goulimyi, the shape of the flowers is quite distinctive. Looking forward to more feedback on 1 and 2 ...if they set any seed please can I go on the list to receive some :)
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Thomas or Tony do you know the name of the white Crocus that I showed on page 20?
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Mark, I think to Crocus speciosus Albus
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No1 is the most interesting as at first glance I thought it and No2 were both C cancellatus ssp cancellatus. However the white anthers of No1 make this C cancellatus ssp pamhyllicus BUT from Syria?? Hopefully Oron will take a look at these and offer his opinion, he may have seen these in the wild.
Tony,
I agree with you that No. 2 is Cancellatus cancellatus.
I'm a bit confused about No. 1, at first look I thought of an hybrid but who are the parents... hermoneus x cancellatus?, but both don't have yellow throat.
B.M describes cancellathus pamphyllicus as having white anthers but he says that the color of the flower is 'usually' white with yellow throat. [ there are two flowers at the front left side that look like this description]
The central flower in the photo is much more colorfull, and also I don't think I ever seen mentioned that it grow in Syria.
Maybe it is some intermediate form or hybrid of the two ssp....?
Cant say really....
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Thanks Oron. I have 3 different forms of what I suppose is C cancellatus ssp pamphylicus with white anthers. All have lilac flowers in varying shades. None have the finely veined flower that seems so typical of C cancellatus (and C hermoneus) in your region. The plants we are looking at now are very beautiful, whatever they are. If truly from Syria we may be looking at something new :-\
Mark - finally located the pic you refer to. Dom is right, its C speciosus!
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Could someone please identify this Crocus. The flower was removed from the plant by a cutworm >:( :( I am intrigued by the white stigma
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Some Crocus from the bulb house and garden
1. The litlle and large of Crocus kotschyanus
2. Crocus goulimyi
3. Crocus niveus
4. Crocus boryi
5. Identity please
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Some nameless Crocus. Who can help me?
Dominique, the flower of your first unknown crocus looks very like the Crocus speciosus ssp. xantholaimos x pulchellus that I show in this weeks bulb log - although I am not sure that they would meet in Syria.
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Crocus tournefortii (?) again. I attach a picture that better shows the color as it looks for the eye. I got so curious that I choose to spend the night at the country house. No doubt about it. The flower remained open through the night. So my conclusion is that it is a white C tournefortii and not C boryi. I have the latter as well but it is not flowering.
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Art - your no. 5 looks like one of the saffron group. C. hadriaticus?
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Another pic from Jim Kee in Delaware, USA who writes...........
This is Crocus goulimyi as you probably already know. There are a few different shades of flowers but the lighter ones in this group come up first. Don't know why this is. This clump brings back great memories for me of being at Alan Edwards house in England with David Stephens and Peter Bird (the man who collected these) hearing great stories of their travels. Peter had brought them along and gave them to me. By the time I left GB my pockets were full of all sorts of goodies. Great times. Thank you.
Jim
[attach=1]
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Crocus serotinus subsp. clusii cv ‘Poseidon’
This is a very vigorous cultivar; one corm obtained last year has produced six flowering-size corms this year.
I bought some years ago to Paul Christian C clusii and C. clusii 'Poseidon' but the two bulbs turn to be the same plant, so I don't know if I have the type plant or the cultivar. How could we distinct 'Poseidon' ? Please have a look to my plant at the end of this page http://plantes-passion.forumactif.fr/les-bulbes-f7/crocus-d-automne-t2514-15.htm
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Bio - I don't know what the difference is between the 'type' & the cultivar. Your plants look somewhat paler in colour than mine but this could simply be a difference in lighting or photography.
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thanks Gerry. I wonder if the coloration of the tube could help ?
I'll put new photos next week as I think all my clone would be in flower ;)
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Could someone please identify this Crocus. The flower was removed from the plant by a cutworm >:( :( I am intrigued by the white stigma
Could be C kotschyanus var leucopharynx - white style and throated version of C kotschyanus
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Some nameless Crocus. Who can help me?
Dominique, the flower of your first unknown crocus looks very like the Crocus speciosus ssp. xantholaimos x pulchellus that I show in this weeks bulb log - although I am not sure that they would meet in Syria.
Well the great and the good(e) can disagree .... I don't think it is C speciosus xantholaimos x pulchellus!! The flower/petal shape is not typical but it is VERY similar to some forms of C cancellatus. A check of the corm tunics would confirm this. C cancellatus has netted tunics, speciosus/pulchellus have papery ones.
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Some Crocus from the bulb house and garden
1. The litlle and large of Crocus kotschyanus
2. Crocus goulimyi
3. Crocus niveus
4. Crocus boryi
5. Identity please
5 Crocus longiflorus
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Could someone please identify this Crocus. The flower was removed from the plant by a cutworm >:( :( I am intrigued by the white stigma
Could be C kotschyanus var leucopharynx - white style and throated version of C kotschyanus
BD and I agree with eacother, and Tony, on this one........
and on this one......Quote from: art600 on Today at 08:53:08 AM
Some Crocus from the bulb house and garden
1. The litlle and large of Crocus kotschyanus
2. Crocus goulimyi
3. Crocus niveus
4. Crocus boryi
5. Identity please
Tony G says...
5 Crocus longiflorus
But I part company with the BD on THIS one and go with Tony Goode....
Quote from: Ian Y on Today at 10:11:39 AM
Quote from: johanneshoeller on October 20, 2008, 05:36:45 PM
Some nameless Crocus. Who can help me?
Dominique, the flower of your first unknown crocus looks very like the Crocus speciosus ssp. xantholaimos x pulchellus that I show in this weeks bulb log - although I am not sure that they would meet in Syria.
Tony says:
Well the great and the good(e) can disagree .... I don't think it is C speciosus xantholaimos x pulchellus!! The flower/petal shape is not typical but it is VERY similar to some forms of C cancellatus. A check of the corm tunics would confirm this. C cancellatus has netted tunics, speciosus/pulchellus have papery ones.
I favour C. cancellatus, too!
:D
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Bio - I also got my 'Poseidon' from Paul Christian. Looking again at my plants & at your photo my 'Poseidon' maybe has a darker tube but in my opinion photographs are an unreliable basis for comparison.
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Some Crocus from the bulb house and garden
1. The litlle and large of Crocus kotschyanus
2. Crocus goulimyi
3. Crocus niveus
4. Crocus boryi
5. Identity please
5 Crocus longiflorus
OK - on a second look I agree, C. longiflorus. My head is full of saffron crocuses at the moment & I see them everywhere. Didn't someone die from an excess of saffron?
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But I part company with the BD on THIS one and go with Tony Goode....
Quote from: Ian Y on Today at 10:11:39 AM
Gosh :o I'd hate to be the cause of a split :o :o ;D .... being something of a lumper myself :D
xxx
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Bio - I also got my 'Poseidon' from Paul Christian. Looking again at my plants & at your photo my 'Poseidon' maybe has a darker tube but in my opinion photographs are an unreliable basis for comparison.
Then, I would be happy next summer to send you bulbs of my possible two clones for you to compare in autumn 2009 ;)
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Bio - I also got my 'Poseidon' from Paul Christian. Looking again at my plants & at your photo my 'Poseidon' maybe has a darker tube but in my opinion photographs are an unreliable basis for comparison.
Then, I would be happy next summer to send you bulbs of my possible two clones for you to compare in autumn 2009 ;)
Bio - OK, thanks. I will PM you about this. By the way, my pics are not very accurate as regards colour, I think yours are much better.
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Another C. tournefortii - the kindest to late-night gardeners!
This one seems less like Ian's beauties (reply #191), which Gerry calls the 'old form', and perhaps closer to Thomas' from Crete (reply #4) with its striped upper tube.
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Could someone please identify this Crocus. The flower was removed from the plant by a cutworm >:( :( I am intrigued by the white stigma
Arthur,
Can it be Crocus kotchianus ssp leucopharynx. This is the one flowering now
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This one seems less like Ian's beauties (reply #191), which Gerry calls the 'old form', and perhaps closer to Thomas' from Crete (reply #4) with its striped upper tube.
These are beautiful Ashley - much nicer than the very pale form which is currently in flower here. Your photo seems to have captured the subtle colours really well.
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Oleg
Your Crocus look wonderful. I look forward to seeing mine looking as good.
Thanks everyone for the identification
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Having just seen Ian's latest bulb log, I think Crocus montage is my favourite. ;)
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I have great pleasure to see all your wonderfull crocuses .
I also would like to share some from my side which taken on wild and very cloase to my garden.
C. pulchellus.
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Just a little one (3.5cm/1.5inch high) to start me this year.
[attachthumb=1]
Crocus veneris
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Here is a species which I have seen first time. It has very small and pale anthers nearly white. The size of flowers even not half of normal c. speciosus. First one is from garden of biological university the secon is fron another botanical garden.
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Today the first of the serotinus ssp clusii 'Gwendoline Edwards' were open. They are very small maybe 6cm high and difficult to photograph. Is this normal? Does any know anything about this Crocus?
No photos as they are not good quality. Maybe tomorrow
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I have great pleasure to see all your wonderfull crocuses .
I also would like to share some from my side which taken on wild and very cloase to my garden.
C. pulchellus.
That pulchellus with a darker zone in the throat is very nice. Looks like it has large flowers too.
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Lovely pictures everyone. It is strange the way the flowering time varies so much geographically and even in some cases to different areas of the garden. I sometimes wonder whether early flowering is as a result of being dried out in summer and new growth triggered by watering, as mine always seem to be late possibly because many are in the open garden and are kept moist( or this year and last WET). Any theories ???
Here are a few of mine
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Here are a couple of mine from the greenhouse today. Bought as Crocus serotinus ssp.clusii 'Poseidon', and bought as C.cancellatus damascenus.
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Ian mine are performing very poorly this autumn caused I suppose by our 10 week drought between April 5th and June 21st
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Today the first of the serotinus ssp clusii 'Gwendoline Edwards' were open. They are very small maybe 6cm high and difficult to photograph. Is this normal? Does any know anything about this Crocus?
Mark - there is a short note about this crocus in The AGS Bull. vol 62, p429 (1994) following its showing by Alan Edwards the previous year. This note refers to a full description & illustration in vol 58, p356 (1990). Unfortunately I do not have the earlier volume
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Thanks Gerry. Hopefully someone here keeps their AGS mags neat, tidy and in order
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That would be me, Mark! Busy at the minute, but will copy and get it posted asap 8)
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There's a useful cumulative index to the AGS Bull. online at:
http://www.alpinegardensociety.net/servlet/indexservlet?command=visitindex
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It appears that the plant was first brought to the RHS Joint Rock Plant Committee in 1989 by Alan Edwards and subsequently the form shown must have been given the cultivar name 'Gwendoline Edwards'
Here is the mention from the AGS Bulletin of 1994 and the photo and report from 1989............
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
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thanks Maggi.
Here's one of my photos
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Crocus serotinus subsp clusii 'Gwendoline Edwards'
This is Mike Ireland's photo from the AGS Bulletin but taken from the web. I think it gives a better idea of the colour.
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Crocus laevigatus
Ex a Ray Cobb collection (CRO1012), Greece.
Corms & seeds were given to me by Alan Edwards some years ago
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Crocus longiflorus
Ex an Alan Edwards collection, Italy, Sicily, Madonie Nebrodi.
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Crocus cartwrightianus
Another form of this very variable plant. Ex a collection by Christian, Elliot & Hoog (CEH 613), Greece, Evvia, nr. Polipotamos (1982).
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Lovely examples Gerry, I particularly liked the cartwrightianus.
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Thanks David. I find the variation in C. cartwrightianus fascinating. if I had the space I'd grow far more specimens.
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Space! The blight of the gardening classes ;D
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Crocus niveus
Ex a Jim Archibald seed collection (JCA5132), Greece, Messinia, S of Kalamata (1984). JCA pop. ref. 348.800.
This plant, like all the collected & seed raised forms of C. niveus which I grow, is intolerant of winter wet.
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some pictures from this weekend
Cr.cartwrightianus in pale blue and white, seedlings from cartwrightianus Albus hort.
Cr.caspius, two pics
Cr.wattiorum, to warm for this flower
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more pictures
Cr.biflorus ssp.melantherus
niveus
laevigatus from Crete
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Dirk - beautiful crocus. C. biflorus subsp. melantherus is especially attractive
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Not seen wattiorum in 'captivity' before Dirk. Looks very special and definitely one I'll be looking for in due course.
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very fine plants. Thank you Dirk
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Dirk you are not short of melantherus then :o great display
Here is my first crocus from seed at least deliberately. The seeds were sown in Jan 2006 so I wasn't expecting them to flower yet a while. Is this normal? Be interesting to see how some of the spring flowering ones show later
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Ian
For banaticus I would suggest that is some kind of record :o
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I was sent a corm that was supposedly melantherus but it wasn't and I got my money back.
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Dirk you have very nice crocuses :o
Here I want to show some more photo from university garden. They have nice specieses but the slugs made big problems.
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Some really nice ones there folks.
Here's one of mine from a few small corms kindly sent to me by Tony Willis. Tony wasn't sure what the species would be but said that the corms were collected from Kosmos in the Greek Peleponnese. My guess would be Crocus boryi, am I correct??
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And these are from another garden which is well-kept
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And here are some pics. from one old crocus garden. There were no more crocus in area only broken pots.
But still found somethings. These are grown from seeds.
First two, C. kotschyanus subsp. kotschyanus
Second one, it looks C. speciosus subsp. speciosus :-\
Thirt one C. aumaniae :-\
For last two I need yor confirmation..
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Here's one of mine from a few small corms kindly sent to me by Tony Willis. Tony wasn't sure what the species would be but said that the corms were collected from Kosmos in the Greek Peleponnese. My guess would be Crocus boryi, am I correct??
David, oddly I have this same form in flower today, I received the seeds in 2005 under tuornefortii,
but off course it isn't that.
it is smaller sized flower, and much slender then boryi....I also have difficulties to decide.... ???
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Here I want to show some more photo from university garden. They have nice specieses but the slugs made big problems.
Ibrahim - many thanks for the C. nerimaniae. What a striking flower!
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Here's one of mine from a few small corms kindly sent to me by Tony Willis. Tony wasn't sure what the species would be but said that the corms were collected from Kosmos in the Greek Peleponnese. My guess would be Crocus boryi, am I correct??
David, oddly I have this same form in flower today, I received the seeds in 2005 under tuornefortii,
but off course it isn't that.
it is smaller sized flower, and much slender then boryi....I also have difficulties to decide.... ???
Oron, maybe others will help us both.
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David,
I suspect it to be boryi x laevigatus, but lets see what the others think.
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Oron
I recently showed a photo of a boryi x laevigatus - it was very large, almost niveus in size. I do not think size can be a sure way of identifying the hybrid.
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Art,
I agree with you that the size of the flower is not a factor, I gave this indication since you cant realize the real size in the photo.
Any way my boryi do not have such a long 'leg'.
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Ibrahim
Very nice crocuses as always from you. I too have slugs >:( but am working hard to make the garden less friendly to them. I think your mystery crocus is C asumaniae. The style is longer and more prominent than I associate with C pallasii.
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Here's one of mine from a few small corms kindly sent to me by Tony Willis. Tony wasn't sure what the species would be but said that the corms were collected from Kosmos in the Greek Peleponnese. My guess would be Crocus boryi, am I correct??
David - it could be C. boryi. Some forms have relatively small flowers with a suggestion of purple veining on the outside - I have one. Bear in mind, however, that 50% of my identifications turn out to be wrong!
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Ibrahim
Very nice crocuses as always from you. I too have slugs >:( but am working hard to make the garden less friendly to them. I think your mystery crocus is C asumaniae. The style is longer and more prominent than I associate with C pallasii.
This refers to Ibrahims last crocus in this post on page 27, I believe....
Re: Crocus October 2008
« Reply #404 on: Today at 01:29:40 PM »
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Tony,
Thank you very much indeed!
Your confirmation is important for me. I was not sure with that short style.
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To David ( Nichelson) :
here is a little help for the ID of this Crocus from Tony Willis - the name of this location is Kosmas - not Kosmos .
This little village is in the Parnon mts. - maybe if you know the area so it is easier to identify ....I answer for Tony - I think he is away ....
Best wishes
Hans
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Thank you Hans for the correction, I have amended my notes to read 'Kosmas'. Not having visited Greece it doesn't help me but it might well be useful for others.
Gerry, thanks for the ID, that makes two of us for C. boryi but we could both be wrong.
Time moves very quickly in this thread and I would like to get a view from TonyG on the ID so I will re-post the pictures here but it may be that I have to wait and post a pic of the corms next June!
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edited out by Mark
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Two more crocus are starting to bloom:
C. pallasii pallasii
C. ochroleucus, at the end of the day I was lucky to take a photo of this great clump.
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Two more crocus are starting to bloom:
C. pallasii pallasii
C. ochroleucus, at the end of the they I was lucky to take a photo of this great clump.
What a fabulous clump of c. ochroleucus - amazing the way that you have captured it so well in this photo at just the best moment.
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Oron, Ian and I are SO enjoying your photos...... Thank you. 8)
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I think that goes without saying Maggi, but I will also add my appreciation for these wonderful photos. Why do we not have the old star rating for individual posts. On the old '5 star' rating I think I would give these at least *******.
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Here is the C. goulimyi ex TB again, properly ;D. It's a nice off white
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Oron
I do not think I have ever seen a better clump of Crocus. Ochroleucus do very well in the garden and multiply quickly, but they never look as good as this.
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Thank you all, :-[ :-[ :-[
I do not think I have ever seen a better clump of Crocus. Ochroleucus do very well in the garden and multiply quickly, but they never look as good as this.
Arthur,
It isn't so rare to find such big clumps of ochroleucus but usually flowers are in different stages of bloom. The clump in the photo is special because all flowers opened at the same day.
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This thread doesn't cease to amaze me :o :o :o
Wonderful pix - thanks everyone ! :D
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To David ( Nichelson) :
here is a little help for the ID of this Crocus from Tony Willis - the name of this location is Kosmas - not Kosmos .
This little village is in the Parnon mts. - maybe if you know the area so it is easier to identify ....I answer for Tony - I think he is away ....
Best wishes
Hans
I am back and Hans is quite correct.The printing on the map is very small and either my eyes are going a little dim,or perhaps my brain and I did not read the map correctly.Apologies.
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Nice to have you back Tony, you got five of the letters correct and that's not a bad average, far better than I sometimes manage! Do you think it's C. boryi??
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I am back and Hans is quite correct.The printing on the map is very small and either my eyes are going a little dim,or perhaps my brain and I did not read the map correctly.Apologies.
Hi Tony ,
Glad that you are back !
I know it is always a problem with this greek names and letters .....no apologies needed .
My idea was only to give this plant a location ....so our Crocus specialist can maybe better search for the rigth name
Best regards
Hans
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David I think it may be boryi as there were lots there but in truth I would find it easier if there were labels attached in the wild for most of the things I see.
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Crocus tournefortii
A recently acquired trade form with relatively small flowers.
Edit: I have replaced the original photo with a somewhat better one.
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A fantastic contrast between the petals and the stigmas.
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Last July at re-potting time I boasted that one pot of five corms of Crocus kotschyanus had produced me 19 very good sized corms and one tiddler. I should have kept my mouth shut because, so far this year, I have had only two flowers.
After re-potting the pots were kept outside and I blame both our lousy wet Summer and our equally wet Autumn. Next years project is going to be the construction of an outdoor, but roofed, growing area for potted bulbs. I've identified the Site and now all I have to do is convince the Boss that it's a good idea.
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Some more crocus pix from Jim Kee in Delaware...who says.......Hi Maggi,
How are things in Scotland these days? We have had some rain, lower temperatures and winds. It is finally getting nice again. The good weather has brought out a couple nice Crocuses. I was wondering if you might be able to post some pictures of them for me.
First two are of a Crocus pallasii ex Akseki, Turkey,
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
the third is an all white Crocus mathewii purchased from a nursery.
[attach=3]
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You'll have to wait for Jim to come along to tell you what the cactus and spikey plants to the left of both crocus are!! ;D
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Hi Maggi,
Thank you again for posting for me. The spiky plant is an Agave parviflora and the Cactus is an Echinocactus. The little bed where these grow is against the front of my house and is South facing. It gets very hot and dry. The Agave and Cactus are perfect companion plants and provide me with something to look at when the bulbs are dormant.
Jim
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David N, you have discovered a drawback of keeping bulbs/plants outdoors in plastic pots - they retain too much water.
Until a couple of years ago this presented me with few problems as the weather was dry enough for me to have to add water to the pots frequently during the summer. This now seems to have changed with the amount of rain we are getting. In my case it is Frits and Arisaema that I am growing up to f/s in plastic pots that live outdoors in summer. They have received little water from me but come re-potting time the gitty compost that I use was so wet that I was concerned about the bulbs. Most survived but some had rotted away. This is an issue that I will have to look at next year.
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David,you are right of course, apart from the climate plastic pots are a major cause of the problem, but the cost of going back to clays, taking into account how many I would need would be phenomenal. By the way all of my Primulas are grown in clays. I would be interested to know how you intend to deal with the problem. My roofed outdoor growing area solution should ease the wet compost problem but will be directly under a north facing fence so no doubt I shall complain about lack of sun!
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I am full of admiration for people who manage to grow bulbous plants in plastic pots either indoors or outdoors. Several years ago Ingwersen, the famous alpine nursery, changed to plastic & sold off their old clay pots very cheaply. I acquired dozens which I use for everything bulbous. These old pots, many hand-made by the look of them, are both beautiful & functional & not at all difficult to clean. Attractive modern ones are quite expensive.
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The spikey thing in the last pic looks like Agave victoriae-reginae?
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Hi Anthony,
Yes many of the small Agaves look very similar but this has flowered and is definitely Agave parviflora. The plant itself is not so big but the spike was about 12 feet tall.
Jim
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the spike was about 12 feet tall.
Good grief!
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Hi All,
I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that last reply. Although it was rather tall I think the actual height of the Agave flower stalk was about 9 and a half feet. Sorry about that. I guess it's like those fish stories. They keep getting bigger and bigger every time the story is told.
Jim
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Agave flower stalk was about 9 and a half feet.
I am still of the same opinion..... Good grief!
That's some height........ so long since I saw agaves in flower I had forgotten hoe tall they can be...... nearest we have in our garden is the spikes of Aciphylla aurea which can make about eight feet.
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! What happened to the anorak?? ;D
Here are a couple of pics of my Crocus ochroleucus taken today after a short spell on the kitchen window sill to warm it up (the plant that is, not me!A little amber liquid usually works better for me.)
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! What happened to the anorak??
I too found a patch of warm sun in the kitchen and decided to ditch the anorak for Hallowe'en!! :-[
Super crocus, David...... 8)
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Here are a couple of pics of my Crocus ochroleucus taken today
David - thanks for posting these photo's - for the past two years I have had a crocus , bought as c. tommasinianus 'Pictus', flower at this time - from my description, Thomas speculated that it was c. ochroleucus ( I could not send him a photo, 'cos I still do not own a camera ::)) - your photo confirms his ID - many thanks to you & well done Thomas.
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Love the side view of the C. ochroleucus David !
Very nice indeed !
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Crocus laevigatus
Ex a Ray Cobb collection (CRO1012), Greece.
The flowers are mostly white, as shown. A few are lilac.
This is a better photo than the one in my post no. 386
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Is it the same pot Gerry, if it is they have come on a treat. Nice pic also by the way.
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Thanks David - yes it's the same pot. I took the previous photo too early.
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David, if next summer is as wet then I will have to cover the pots. The floering size frits are in a frame so I will have to snip the stems, if needs be, and put the covers back. Otherwise I have some covers that I clip to the fencing in winter for other plants.
Our local amenity site has a recycling facility where people can take just about anything they don't want and other can come along and take it for a smal donation. When I was there on Thursday I picked up two large trays of 5 and 6 inch clays. Whoopee!
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a nice crocus from Nafpaktos which is on mainland Greece across the gulf from Patras. I collected seed some years ago hoping it would be robertianus. I am having a problem identifying it-help please.
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A pale and pretty C. speciosus, Tony?
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thanks Maggie,just had a moment and could not get my mind round speciosus from Greece
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Tony,
i think, this is Cr.cancellatus ssp.mazziaricus.
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a nice crocus from Nafpaktos which is on mainland Greece across the gulf from Patras. I collected seed some years ago hoping it would be robertianus. I am having a problem identifying it-help please.
I'm sticking with Crocus speciosus..... because cancellatus to my eye has less frilly style, and lighter pollen and fewer markings on the petals............ ::)
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Maggie I first thought cancellatus but I have noted its corm tunic on the label (I cannot believe I have written that, what an anorak) and it is not cancellatus. I thought speciosus but could not remember if it grew in that area and 'The Crocus' does not mention it in Greece.
I think I must have been sniffing too much paint today which together with a very large gin and half a bottle of red is not a good combination but feels okay.
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Plenty C. speciosus in Greece, I believe :D
All that decorating you're doing, I'm not surprised you're resorting to drink!
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Tony - I tend to agree with Maggi, probably C. speciosus. In his update on crocus in 'The Plantsman' (June 2002) BM states that the distribution of this species has been extended to include the southern part of mainland Greece.
On this wild & stormy night a large gin & half a bottle of red sounds like an excellent combination to me.
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Gerry thanks for that information which I think confirms what I and also Maggi thought.
We have had a glorious sunny day but cold and it has been a delight to get out into the garden. We do not get many and it is going to rain again tomorrow.
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Some photos taken this morning.
Crocus aleppicus
C. hermoneus _Amman
C. ochroleucus
C. veneris
C. ochroleucus
C. pallasii pallasii
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Super Oron. I am always struck by how close C hermoneus is to some forms of C cancellatus in flower. From memory I think the corm tunics of hemoneus have much finer fibres, less netted? Is the pure white C ochroleucus a local form or the one that has reached other growers via (I think) Brian Mathew? Your recent image of a clump of C ochroleucus have forced me to revise my opinions of this small flowered species.
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Thanks Tony,
You are right about the hermoneus corm, it has finer, more parallel fiber, connected by shorter fibers,
much less netted then cancellatus .
We have arrived here to the conclusion that it is impossible to tell apart hermoneus from cancellatus cancellatus by their flower!!!, only by checking the corm.
My ochroleucus Albus are from two plants I have collected three years ago in the Upper Galilee,
Luckily it makes many new bulblets.
A few weeks ago when i re potted them there where more then 30 new ones.
The new find is Pallasii Album from last week, but this one will take much longer to multiply since it doesn't make bulblets.
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some flowers today:
Crocus asumaniae in pure white
`` boryi
`` laevigatus dark form
`` laevigatus creme form
`` tournefortii, very pale form
`` tournefortii x laevigatus? flower is closed in the night
a look in my greenhouse
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You are right about the hermoneus corm, it has finer, more parallel fiber, connected by shorter fibers,
much less netted then cancellatus .
We have arrived here to the conclusion that it is impossible to tell apart hermoneus from cancellatus cancellatus by their flower!!!, only by checking the corm.
My ochroleucus Albus are from two plants I have collected three years ago in the Upper Galilee,
Luckily it makes many new bulblets.
A few weeks ago when i re potted them there where more then 30 new ones.
The new find is Pallasii Album from last week, but this one will take much longer to multiply since it doesn't make bulblets.
You should never tell the forum that you had 30 new corms ... :)... Please can you put me on the list for a spare corm next season!?
Glad my memory is not failing me re C hermoneus - its a beautiful little crocus in flower.
Will the white pallasii breed true from seed? My experience with white forms is not positive although sometimes the white reappears in the 2nd generation. Good luck but it could be a long wait before we know!
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You should never tell the forum that you had 30 new corms ... ... Please can you put me on the list for a spare corm next season!?
Tee Hee! You had your wits about you there, Tony,to come out with your request... when I read Oron's words A few weeks ago when I re-potted them there where more then 30 new ones.
...... I fainted clean away!
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Tony and Maggi,
In fact now I realize that I should not give numbers here....well I'm still new here...
you know I grow some plants in a refrigerator, now I have to find a way how to grow them in a safe since some people have my home address ::)...
By the way have you noticed how similar in appearance are Pallasii album and Dirk's C. asumaniae.
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By the way have you noticed how similar in appearance are Pallasii album and Dirk's C. asumaniae.
( pix on the previous page to this one)
Yes, they are very similar.... it seems the pallasii has some differences in the style ?
Dirk, may we have a photo of the inside of your C. asumaniae, please, to show the style clearly??
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Here are some pics to help ??? with the differences between the style of C asumaniae and C pallasii.
First an example of C asumaniae with a HK collection number so it should be true. Note the style divides quite high up, more than half way up the anthers, it is also quite long, considerably exceeding the anthers.
Next a 'typical' C pallasii style (from an atypical coloured flower). This is quite short, not exceeding the anthers and dividing at or below the base of the anthers.
BUT then we have two more which fit into C pallasii in most areas but have 'different' style characters. Nothing is ever simple! Perhaps time (and research) will tell us that these two species (and C mathewii) are more closely related than current taxonomy, which does make them close anyway, suggests.
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Maggi,
i will make a photo from this white form with clearly style next weekend.
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Thank you, Dirk! 8)
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Gosh. Turn your back and a whole load more fantastic pics appear. :o
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some flowers today:
Crocus asumaniae in pure white
`` boryi
`` laevigatus dark form
`` laevigatus creme form
`` tournefortii, very pale form
`` tournefortii x laevigatus? flower is closed in the night
a look in my greenhouse
Hello Dirk,
wonderful crocus you have in your collection.
When comparing "C.boryi" with the "C. tournefortii, very pale form" I can't find any significant difference in appearance, except the latter has a more orange colored style.
What makes the difference here between the two?
If you would ask me to decide I would promptly say "C. tournefortii, very pale form" is a "C. boryi" ::)
I thought the distinct feature of C. tournefortii is a large flower with elongated many branch style and that the flower remaining open during night/dull day. On the picture the style looks quite short.
Could you please advise what makes you sure of "C. tournefortii, very pale form"?