Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: mickeymuc on September 27, 2008, 09:17:34 AM
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Hello everyone,
This year my Paris sp. (a very small one, looks quite like P. thibetica) set seed, likely after being crossed with a low growing type of polyphylla. Has anyone experience in sowing paris and can give me an idea on how to proceed ? I'd intend to sow them at once, but am not sure if I should leave the pot outside or put it inside at a cold place to prevent any seedlings from freezing. Anyway I think it will take a year til seedlings appear above the earth ?
Thanks in advance !
Best regards from Munich !
Michael
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Hello Michael,
I have had some success with germinating Paris,
If it's fresh seed you have a better chance of germinating them and sow it like any woodland type plant ie bark base soil mix gravel on top and cover the whole pot with autums leaves under some tree cover or place it in a cold frame in the shade.
If your Paris survive what Munich cold winters give it your seed will be fine. But maybe protect the first leaves from frost if they come up early.
Im only guessing but I think some require a warm period followed by a cold and spring warmths and should germinate, as the fruit rippens late autumn and fall to the ground and goes through a natural cycle. I would not sow them inside give them the natural temp fluctuations it needs to break its dormancy.
If you have any Paris seed to swap in the future pm me.
good luck
Stephen
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Michael,
Paris thibetica is the only Paris species that produces black seed partly covered with a red aril.
Paris seed should be sown fresh. Germination (appearance of the cotyledon) occurs after the second winter.
It is best to protect the seedlings when there is heavy frost.
Robin
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Hi Michael
We have had good success growing Paris from seed by using a loam based compost with added grit and leaving them in a cold frame till they germinate which for us takes about 1 year.
Thanks Dan and Ellen
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Michael,
Congratulations on the seed production. That's another species I haven't heard of before, or at least don't recall anyway. Chiming in with my experience..... fresh is pretty much the only way to go. As long as it is fresh it has germinated fine for me, treated as I do the majority of other bulb seed and sown in a commercial "seed raising mix" on the top of the mix, then covered with small gravel. Fresh seed germinates just fine this way for me. I've only tried this with a couple of Paris species though, as I haven't been able to find seed of many of them. P. quadrifolia has germinated well this way, plus some polyphylla. No idea if other species need different treatment.
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Hi everyone,
And thanks for the advice ! I hope I'll manage to get them going.
As the berries are orange I guess that it is a different spoecies and not P. thibetica (thanks Robin !) - here is a photo of the mother plant in flower, maybe anyone has an idea?
http://forum.garten-pur.de/attachments/2Paris1.jpg
Either it was self-pollination (which I think doesn't occur at Paris?) or a successful pollination with this one:
http://forum.garten-pur.de/attachments/paris02.jpg
which I think is a polyphylla type.
I'd be happy about any hints for identification, but at most I'm happy that it has set seed...
Best regards !
Michael
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Michael,
I think your Paris with the narrow leaves is Paris polyphylla var stenophylla. This species germinates easily and can reach flowering size in 4 years time which is fast for Paris. Paris thibetica (http://picasaweb.google.be/Clint.Callens/Paris#5251554166790577314) has very long free connectives on top of its stamens unlike P. polyphylla var stenophylla.
The other Paris is probably Paris polyphylla.
regards,
Robin
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Michael,
I added 2 photos of Paris thibetica fruit with seeds on my webalbum:
http://picasaweb.google.be/Clint.Callens/Paris#5251560923715466162
http://picasaweb.google.be/Clint.Callens/Paris#5251559714526458946
regards,
Robin
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Robin,
Thanks a lot for the ID !
Am I right thinking that Paris are self-sterile or can I expect self-pollination as well ?
Your P. thibetica is very beautiful, the flower looks great but the seed pods are amazing !
Michael
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Michael,
A single clone of any Paris species rarely sets seed. When there are several clones most species set seed easily even without hand pollination. However hand pollination is the surest way to get a good crop.
regards,
Robin
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Robin,
That's what I thought, and then I should have hybrid seed - I'm very curious if they are fertile and what the result might look like. Perhaps they have some hybrid vigour and grow a bit faster than the mother :-)
Michael
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Michael,
I experienced that hybridisation usually occurs within the section Euthyra (Subgenus Daiswa). Even without hand pollination these Paris species hybridise frequently. Some examples of Paris hybrids:
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Wow Robin, on all counts. Would be a pleasure to grow any of them. :D Aren't the leaves on the luquanensis hybrid stunning!!!!! :o
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The pictures are great, i have been trying to grow luquanensis for a couple of years but the tubers keep rotting.
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Wow, Robin, those hybrids are just fantastic !
Do you notice some typical hybrid features (such as faster growth or more robust plants and faster spreading of the rhizomes) on these plants ?
Michael
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Michael,
I don't see any difference in growth rate or spreading between the hybrids and their parents. Except maybe for the sterile Paris hybrids who seem to grow faster and taller.
Some more photos of Paris hybrids:
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Robin, you have a delightful selection of Paris etc there and you show us very good photos of them, which are making me very envious of your plants!!
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I am SO jealous of all those Paris. Wish they were available here in Aus but unfortunately very rare. Thank you SO much for showing us your photos. A real pleasure to view.
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I think those smashing Paris are not available at all anywhere....what a pity !
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I think those smashing Paris are not available at all anywhere....what a pity !
What a pity, indeed, Michael.... if I knew where to buy these wonderful plants I would be forming a queue to spend Ian's money ::) :D
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Maggie
I think a lot came in through Chen Yi but Crug farm have a super selection although the prices are beyond my pocket
I have an interesting but boring one that I got from Jim Sutherland when I was at Ardfearn.He told me he had bought it in China on a vegetable stall
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He told me he had bought it in China on a vegetable stall
Good grief... I hope you won't be reduced to munching that along with the crocus and alliums, Tony??!! :P
Crug farm have a super selection although the prices are beyond my pocket
I did not know that... may have a browse and just do a bit of window-shopping, then... :-\
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Hello Robin,
Nice picks
Interesting that they hybridise, was this an accidental discovery? These hybrids may become more desirable than the species, they look great.
Cheers
Stephen Vella
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I think a lot came in through Chen Yi but Crug farm have a super selection although the prices are beyond my pocket
I have an interesting but boring one that I got from Jim Sutherland when I was at Ardfearn.He told me he had bought it in China on a vegetable stall
Tony,
I don't think Paris species are boring, overpriced vegetables ;D.
I consider Paris an intriguing genus with a strange kind of charm and it should be grown more often in gardens.
Robin
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Stephen,
At first we handpollinated all our Paris plants. We also tried crossing different Paris species and we found out that some species (Euthyra section: Paris species with a thick rhizome, dehiscent capsule and seeds covered with a red/orange aril) hybridise easily, while others (section Paris: species with a slender, narrow rhizome, non dehiscent dark berry and seeds without aril) don't.
Robin
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At first we handpollinated all our Paris plants. We also tried crossing different Paris species and we found out that some species (Euthyra section: Paris species with a thick rhizome, dehiscent capsule and seeds covered with a red/orange aril) hybridise easily, while others (section Paris: species with a slender, narrow rhizome, non dehiscent dark berry and seeds without aril) don't.
Robin
Robin, does this mean you will have these plants in commerce soon? 8)
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Robin,
Well if you have spare seed of any of them (be they hybrids or species) that you aren't wanting can I start the queue for them? I'm sure there are a LOT of us (particularly in areas with stricter quarantine conditions) that would absolutely jump at the chance to grow some of these from seed. 8)
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Hi Robin and all, I also agree that the pictures and the information is fantastic, I just want to let you all know that Robin is a super young man 6ft or so tall and he with his father and brother are also very interesting plant people. I have known the family for several years Clint, Robins brother is interested in Meconopsis when they visit here some years we spend as much time looking at plants. I know that this is a very special family. I have managed to grow some of the Paris shown from seed plus Paris polyphylla yunanensis alba , Paris Tibetica and Paris polyphylla variations, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Hi Robin as a group they are not my favorites but i find some are very lovely.
My paris luquanensis had a seed pod on it this year which was probably fertilised by my unknown one(the vegetable). They were flowering at the same time and I dabbled around with a paint brush.
The plant went dormant before the pod ripened and so I put it in water on the windowsill until the stem rotted. When I opened the capsule there were several seeds which looked fully formed but had not hardened their coat. I planted them same day and live in hope.
Another species which came as a bit from China has still not produced a shoot after three years but the bit of rhizome still seems alive.
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..... he with his father and brother are also very interesting plant people. I have known the family for several years Clint, Robins brother is interested in Meconopsis
cheers Ian the Christie kind.
Aha, memory rings bells.... does Clint also have an interest in Arisaemas?......I'm recalling ancient posts on Arisaema-L ::)
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Hi Tony,
Good luck with your crossing ! My seeds were also weak to the touch, I don't think they harden at all, I think that's their normal state.
It seems also normal that they sleep for years, I also have rhizomes in the garden that did nothing for 2-3 years while some appeared in the first year. Some Paris also made a very small and underdeveloped leaf at first, which withered after some weeks, to reappear stronger in the following year. Paul Christian writes on his HP that P. japonica can easily take 4 or more years before a shoot appears.
So: don't worry and be patient, and maybe try not to disturb the rhizome.
Michael
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Hi Tony,
So: don't worry and be patient, and maybe try not to disturb the rhizome.
Michael
Michael thanks for that information on the seed. I had the same experience with a dysosma pod and I have sown the soft imature seeds. Nothing is lost by giving it a go.
As to disturbing the rhizomes I tip them out at least once a month to look for progress. I am like a mother hen worrying about her chicks as far as my plants are concerned
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Dear Friends
Very interesting topic! I have been in search for paris plants without success because beside P. Christian Rare Plants they are nearly unavailable by postal order. Only a couple of years ago I found some paris listed by Europa Nursery but I have not been able to get in touch with them. I am fascinated by their shape particularly those with marbled leaves but to date I have not been able to obtain plants. Anyone in the forum has informations about sources/nurseries?
Robin: my congratulations for your outstanding plants
Sincerely
Roberto
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Hi Maggie, you are correct Arisaema plus many others are specialities of the Callens, cheers Ian the Christie kind
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Robin,
those are some very nice Paris-hybrids.
Be sure if you bring these plants in commerce to sell them in Belgium first ;)
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Hi Ian,
Thank you for those all too kind words and also for the warm welcome and super plants you gave last july. We hope to see you again on the next Meconopsis meeting.
Robin & Clint
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Michael and Tony,
I hate to disappoint you but chances on germination of soft, immature Paris and Dysosma seed are very poor.
Tony, do you have a photo of your unknown (vegetable) Paris?
Robin
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Robin, does this mean you will have these plants in commerce soon?
We really don't have commercial intentions, we are just building up a Paris collection and trying them out in the garden along with Trillium, Arisaema, Podophyllum, Meconopsis and others.
Robin & Clint
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Stupid me !
What I thought was an orange seed was in fact some kind of berry, each of which contains s hard, white seed - I guess they look pretty mature and are not at all soft. I wonder if I have to dig them out and remove the orange part, but I think I'll have to.
I've read so often about the "orange Paris seed" that I did not check if what I sowed was the seed or not.
Well, next time I know.... ::)
Michael
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Robin, does this mean you will have these plants in commerce soon?
We really don't have commercial intentions, we are just building up a Paris collection and trying them out in the garden along with Trillium, Arisaema, Podophyllum, Meconopsis and others.
Robin & Clint
what a pity for the rest of us :P there would be a good market for these hybrids, I reckon! 8)
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Hi all,
Has anyone ever had or seen a fruit (berry) on Paris/Kinugasa japonica?
If so, is it possible to show a photo?
regards,
Robin
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Michael and Tony,
I hate to disappoint you but chances on germination of soft, immature Paris and Dysosma seed are very poor.
Tony, do you have a photo of your unknown (vegetable) Paris?
Robin
Robin no I do not have a photgraph but will take one next year.
My immature dysosma seed has rotted but I harvested a ripe berry this week from another plant containing 50 seeds so I live in hope for the spring. The paris seed still looks okay.
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Tony,
Congratulations on the seed harvesting... a rare and valuable commodity. Interesting to hear that your immature seed did rot, as that is useful information for others in the same boat. 8)
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Tony,
Podophyllum seed usually germinates in the spring after the first winter, exceptionally before winter.
I experienced also that if germination doesn't occur after the first winter it never does.
It is interesting to know that the shape of the cotyledons is a usefull taxonomic character (see photos below):
Podohyllum aurantiocaule seedlings
Podophyllum difforme seedlings
Podophyllum mairei seedlings
Podophyllum pleianthum seedlings
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Robin,
Great reference. I've heard to the last species, but that is about it. :o
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Robin,
Referrring back to your question re seed on Paris japonica: I have grown this species for a number of years, certainly the most attractive of the flowers on any Paris, I think, but I have never had any seed. The plant has increased in size and I did lift and split it two years ago and each separate plant grew away well but only the older and larger portion of the rhizome flowered this year. Seed would be so welcome and hopefully my plants will set seed in coming years.
If my recollection is accurate I bought my original plant from Crug Farm in North Wales and it was a rather expensive purchase at the time, £30 - £40, but once it keeps growing and flowering I am happy to have spent so much.
The more ordinary and more common Paris quadrifolia grows very well for me here and has spread to make a nice clump about 50cm across.
Below is a photograph of Paris quadrifolia taken in Switzerland last summer.
Paddy
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Robin super pictures of your seedlings.
My seed seemed good and so I expect they will germinate next spring.I keep them frost free although quite cold
A couple of years ago I raised a batch of seedlings from what I think was delavayi and these are now planted out in the garden and growing away well.
here is a picture of a paris in France this summer
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Ah Tony,
A picture of a Paris in France!!! How could you?
Paddy
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Oh dear I have just stuffed my head under a cushion in order to hide my shame
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And you didn't even show any of the usual sights - the Eiffel Tower or the likes.
Paddy
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Don't worry, Paddy, this shameless behaviour will not go unpunished... I hereby fine Tony a large bar of chocolate as a penalty for his "paris in France" ;)
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I shall buy one and eat it with glee tomorrow!
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I shall buy one and eat it with glee tomorrow!
no, no, Tony, that's not the idea at all....... :P >:(
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Paddy,
I think chances are low that your Paris japonica will set seed unless you have more than one clone.
Robin
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Robin,
Would hand-pollination be of any help with my P. japonica?
Paddy
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Paddy I had no seed until I got two species in flower and crossed them.I was unable to get a single clone to set by itself even with diligent hand pollination.
I got the dysosma to set by storing the pollen in the fridge for a month until a flower opened on a second clone and then cross pollinating it.
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Hi all, I have never had seed on Paris japonica either, and only just had a few Paris polyphylla yunnanensis Alba some seedlings from 4 years ago are now growing well but it is a patient waiting game no wonder these plants are expensive. Paris have growing habits like Trilliums as at the moment they have big fat new shoots and I worry about the frost so have put another mulch layer over the shoots. The big trilliums are also growing well, another plant that needs time from seed, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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I took this pictures at Gothenburg Botanical Garden this summer! a Paris japonica in flower
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Super photo odf a most elegant plant... thanks.
Johan, I have moved your post about the identiification to a more appropriate thread.... see it here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1676.0
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Would hand-pollination be of any help with my P. japonica?
Hand-pollination would certainly do the job if you have another clone of Paris japonica to take pollen from.
It will probably be not possible to cross Paris japonica with another Paris species. We only experienced hybridisation between Paris species of the same section. Paris japonica is the only member of the section Kinugasa.
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I took this pictures at Gothenburg Botanical Garden this summer! a Paris japonica in flower
Johan,
Have you ever seen berries on the Paris japonica at Gothenburg Botanical Garden?
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Robin,
I have not! But Ill ask a friend that works in the garden if it ever set seed for them.
Nice pictures of your fantstic Podohyllum seedlings! I would love to grow them! Do you know were I can get seeds of the different Podophyllums?
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Johan,
This late in the season all my Podophyllum seed is already given away or sown. Podophyllum seed needs to be sown fresh in order to have good germination. If you remind me next season (june-july) I will send you some seed of several species.
Robin
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Robin,
That's very very kind! I would be really happy if you could do that.
I hope that I have something that could be of your interest in return.
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It would be very interesting if this Paris japonica does set berrys if there's 2 clones at GBG.
Paris japonica thats getting around in the U.K and Europe is the same clonal plant thats been passed around for decades and this information is coming from a good source.Thats why nobody can get this one to set berrys.
But thats not to say there maybe new introductions, maybe from Chen YI. Has anyone tried to distribute the pollin and by chance you maybe able to pollinate your plant from pollin of a differant clone, fingers cross you may come across a differant clone.
Something to think about.
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This concerns plain Jane Paris quadrifolia...
Trying to get things tucked away for winter, I worked my way through a huge pile of forgotten flats and pots in a corner; most of which the squirrels had already dug through, many of which had barely a semblance of soil left in them, as a result.
I was just about to toss one flat, when I looked closer and saw a sea of green. This was the Paris.
Moist packed immediately after collection.
The left-overs after seed sales were sown January, 2007
Put outside at that time, exposed to the elements (Eastern Canada)
Remained outside through summer and the following winter.
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Podophyllum seed usually germinates in the spring after the first winter, exceptionally before winter.
I experienced also that if germination doesn't occur after the first winter it never does.
Robin (and Clint---thank you!!!!!!!!!)
Here is Podophyllum aurantiocaule from you (90% germinated by end of October, 2008) kept moist-packed in vermiculite and at room temperature.
Your P. pleianthum has also germinated about 20% treated the same way.
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Kristl,
Thank you very much for the seed you sent us!
There are 2 subspecies of Podophyllum aurantiocaule: P. aurantiocaule subspecies aurantiocaule has flowers usually in the petiole fork and produces black seed while Podophyllum aurantiocaule subspecies furfuraceum has flowers on the petiole near the upper leaf and produces red seed.
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Great information, everyone! Super photos, too, thank you!
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There are 2 subspecies of Podophyllum aurantiocaule: P. aurantiocaule subspecies aurantiocaule has flowers usually in the petiole fork and produces black seed while Podophyllum aurantiocaule subspecies furfuraceum has flowers on the petiole near the upper leaf and produces red seed.
Thank you. That means I have the subspecies (red seed). Fascinating to me to know that the variety produces a different color seed.
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And that the variety actually has flowers in a different location to the species. Seems very strange to have a subspecies with that much difference? Having the flowers located differently is a pretty big difference? :o Both look lovely, but I particularly like the ssp furfuraceum with the flowers on the stem below the upper leaf. Very, very cool. 8)
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Podophyllum aurantiocaule ssp. furfuraceum, which mostly germinated by the end of October, 2008 after being kept moist-packed in vermiculite and at room temperature since harvest now looks like this (four flats full)!!!!!!
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And, contrary to the belief that Podophyllum pleianthum requires a cold period---I would like to report the following:
On receipt of the seed in October, 2008 (moistened), I moist packed it in vermiculite and kept it at room temperature. About 20% germinated within the first month. But then in late December/early January 70% more germinated in moist packing. These are now lined up in flats and are just getting ready to unfurl their first leaves. I will post pictures soon.
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Posted by: Kristl Walek
Insert Quote
Podophyllum aurantiocaule ssp. furfuraceum, which mostly germinated by the end of October, 2008 after being kept moist-packed in vermiculite and at room temperature since harvest now looks like this (four flats full)!!!!!!
Kristl,
I am afraid that the seedlings on the photo are not Podophyllum aurantiocaule but P. hexandrum. Both have similar shaped cotyledons but the first real leaf is very different. P. hexandrum has a typical trilobed first real leaf while P. aurantiocaule's first real leaf is irregular lobed.
You mention that you have 4 flats full but I thought I sent you about 20 seeds of P. aurantiocaule. Could it be that you have mixed them up?
regards,
Robin & Clint
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Hi all,
Many Paris species are germinating at this moment, among them Paris delavayi and polyphylla var stenophylla. Here are some pics of both species sown in the autumn of 2006 and 2007. Cotyledons of the Paris species of the section Euthyra are all very similar in shape. Differentiation occurs from the first leaf stage on.
1) Paris delavayi cotyledon (sown in 2007)
2) Paris polyphylla var stenophylla cotyledon (sown in 2007)
3) Paris delavayi first leaf (sown in 2006)
4) Paris polyphylla var stenophylla first leaf (sown in 2006)
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Great pictures and very helpfull information, a Paris delavayi in my glasshouse (cold) has had green leaves all winter, I also have some Paris polyphylla yunanensis Alba beginning to grow again, do you have this?, cheers Ian the Christie kind
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Robin---thank you so much for posting these--wonderful---seedlings and growth habits of seedlings is always my favorite subject, especially of the rarer/more difficult subjects.
I only grow P. quadrifolia--and would dearly like to try some of the other species, if you or anyone else might have any seed to spare this season of anything other that P. quadrifolia, I would be so appreciative if you could remember me at seed time :)
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Great pictures and very helpfull information, a Paris delavayi in my glasshouse (cold) has had green leaves all winter, I also have some Paris polyphylla yunanensis Alba beginning to grow again, do you have this?, cheers Ian the Christie kind
Ian,
Paris delavayi seldom stays green in winter. I think it's more likely that it is Paris axialis. Yes, we have a few Paris polyphylla yunanensis alba but they are still dormant.
I only grow P. quadrifolia--and would dearly like to try some of the other species, if you or anyone else might have any seed to spare this season of anything other that P. quadrifolia, I would be so appreciative if you could remember me at seed time Smiley
Kristl,
I will let you know when seeds are ripe.
Robin
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Hi again Robin, I will have to watch this plant and take a picture if it flowers, maybe I have mixed up the lables, cheers Ian the Christie kind
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Robin
super pictures and very interesting. My paris seed sown last summer has not germinated yet but I still have hope.
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My paris seed sown last summer has not germinated yet but I still have hope.
Tony,
You will probably see nothing this year above surface. The first year only a radicle is formed and the cotyledon will appear next year from january on till june depending on the species.
Robin
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Dear Robin,
Thanks for the pics and information - I was unsure if it was a bad sign that no germination ocurred yet - well, so I'll wait another year and hope for good results then.
I assume you have the seedlings in a greenhouse - have you ever noticed self-seeding outside?
Here, two very small Paris are already in leaf, they are always very early but robust enough to stand the snow that might still come...
Best regards,
Michael
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Michael,
I always leave the seed pots outside and as soon as germination occurs I place the pots in a cold greenhouse to protect them from frost and bad weather. Yes, they self-seed outside like Trilliums do but they don't grow on as fast as the ones in seed pots.
I usually have difficulties in the garden with the very early Paris species. One of them, probably Paris vietnamensis, starts to grow in december and used to be in the garden. It never flowered and became smaller every year because it was damaged by frost. For the past four years I have been growing it in a container inside (frost free). Result a Paris, 90 cm high with 30 cm long leaves and a blue ovary:
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I have not seen this Paris vietnamensis before, Robin: very beautiful!
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Really beautiful Paris indeed, I saw it life last week and it is stunning.
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Great picture Robin what an interesting family the Paris are,look forward to meeting up with you again, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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I wonder if others have a problem getting Paris polyphylla properly syncronized with the seasons. Over the years in late summer I have received several bareroot plants. Planted in a pot and placed in the cold greenhouse they settle in nicely but invariably come up in the coldest part of winter and keel over after a month, a few have done that and come up again in the spring only to fail and disappear for good.
P. quadrifolia does not present the same problem.
That Paris vietnamensis is smashing Robin. Why not start hybridizing!
johnw
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I wonder if others have a problem getting Paris polyphylla properly syncronized with the seasons. Over the years in late summer I have received several bareroot plants. Planted in a pot and placed in the cold greenhouse they settle in nicely but invariably come up in the coldest part of winter and keel over after a month, a few have done that and come up again in the spring only to fail and disappear for good.
John,
You should try Paris lancifolia, P. delavayi, P. thibetica, P. incompleta etc, all species that come up by the end of march beginning of april.
Why not start hybridizing!
I already did, I crossed it two years ago with Paris delavayi. Four seeds germinated this year.
Robin
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I wonder if others have a problem getting Paris polyphylla properly syncronized with the seasons. Over the years in late summer I have received several bareroot plants. Planted in a pot and placed in the cold greenhouse they settle in nicely but invariably come up in the coldest part of winter and keel over after a month, a few have done that and come up again in the spring only to fail and disappear for good.
John,
You should try Paris lancifolia, P. delavayi, P. thibetica, P. incompleta etc, all species that come up by the end of march beginning of april.
Why not start hybridizing!
Robin
I fully agree that I should try them but they are impossible to find here. I'll check the seedexs next year.
Glad to hear you are hybridizing Paris. I once knew a lady (sadly departed) in Devon who held the national collection. Unfortunately when I visited her garden the Paris were not yet up. She had amazing black hellebores that kept us busy.
re Galanthus: It might be an idea to put Rosemary Burnham on your Green Mile. I can send pollen next winter.
I heard recently a friend is growing seed of Rosemary Burnham and it comes quite true.
You have terrific plants of extraordinary health.
johnw
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Dear friends
Here are the images of a paris species growing now in my garden. Could you help to identify it (the undersurface of the leaves is purple)
Roberto
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Here are the images of a paris species growing now in my garden. Could you help to identify it (the undersurface of the leaves is purple)
Roberto,
Your Paris is probably a P. cronquistii. This species stays green in mild winters. My experience with seed of P. cronquistii is that it germinates very poorly.
Robin
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Man-o,
another fabulous genus for my shade garden. Very beautiful pictures. The P. vietnamensis is lovely. Pity it is sub-tropical. Probably prudent to start with an easy species. Hmmm. ::) ::)
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I have had this Paris bought as P Mairei five years ago. For the first 3 years it grew but did not vary in size much. On the third year it died back early at the end of August when previously it had stayed in leaf until November. Since this time it has not shown above ground. I have removed the top soil carefully and found what I think is the rhizome which has some small whitish nodules showing but no strong buds. Does anyone have any experience of such behavious and is there any hope??
Should I move it??
Here is a picture of it when it was in good health
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Ian,
Do the nodules look like the new shoots I showed in the topic I did on 'Butchering Paris"? When I cut a few disks off the back of a Paris rhizome the first things that appeared around the edges of the disk were small white lumps, which eventually started to produce tiny rhizomes, and now they have produced roots and I assume this coming spring will produce growth above ground. If you rhizome is developing a bunch of white nodules it sounds like the main shoot may have been damaged and now the axillary buds on the rhizome are activating. If so, you won't get flowers for a while, but you should end up with a new rhizome from each or those nodules. That is what it sounds to me like may have happened. Did you happen to photograph the rhizome with it's nodules when you unearthed it? I know exactly what mine looked like so I can try to help identify whether yours are the same or not?
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Ian,
It certainly is spectacular...best of luck with it.
If the nodules are incipient growth points, I'd consider Paul's propagation technique and cut it into pieces. At this stage you've got little to lose, and you can try establishing the plant in a number of different areas.
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Carlo,
Would you disturb it even when it was producing them fine by itself? I would have thought that leaving it where it is and then moving rhizomes later on once they have developed a decent rhizome would have been safer? I was very concerned about the pieces rotting (which thankfully didn't happen). If Ian's are producing offsets anyway I myself would leave them there and monitor them, but I wouldn't want to cut the rhizome up and take the chance of introducing fungal spores etc into the rhizome? I think once they have taken all they can from the old rhizome they will effectively be all separate plants then anyway, so I'd leave it until then. ???
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Hi Paul,
I'll let Ian speak for himself, but he appeared to indicate that the rhizome was just sitting there with its nodules not differentiating into shoots. If that's the case, it may be that further injury to the mother rhizome will initiate some action on the part of these latent growth points. I'd be careful to sulphur any cut surfaces and make sure they're dry before replanting.
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Ian,
Do the nodules look like the new shoots I showed in the topic I did on 'Butchering Paris"? When I cut a few disks off the back of a Paris rhizome the first things that appeared around the edges of the disk were small white lumps, which eventually started to produce tiny rhizomes, and now they have produced roots and I assume this coming spring will produce growth above ground. If you rhizome is developing a bunch of white nodules it sounds like the main shoot may have been damaged and now the axillary buds on the rhizome are activating. If so, you won't get flowers for a while, but you should end up with a new rhizome from each or those nodules. That is what it sounds to me like may have happened. Did you happen to photograph the rhizome with it's nodules when you unearthed it? I know exactly what mine looked like so I can try to help identify whether yours are the same or not?
Hi Paul thanks for that. I have this afternoon done a little excavation. One day I will finish the bxxxxy thing off for good doing this - a case of finger blight ::) - and I found something similar to what you show on the Butchering Paris thread with 2 buds showing even larger than those of yours - so maybe next year. I think I might move it but only when it has established itself as its current location may not be suitable. Its disappearance coincides with me taking down a flowering sized Magnolia mollicomata campbellii (a crime I know) and old roots may be the problem.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3389.msg87033#msg87033 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3389.msg87033#msg87033)
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Carlo,
They take ages to differentiate into shoots. Mine had the nodules for months and months, never showing anything other than getting slightly larger. Now they've started to produce roots, still not showing any signs of "shooting". From that I am assuming it is just a matter of timing until Ian's do start to activate themselves. I think the nodules just sit there and keep absorbing nutrients from the old rhizome until they get to the right time of year/size/whatever starts them doing more. ;D
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Fascinating things, aren't they.... Let's all be happy that the plant is still alive. Plenty of us have stories about plants that we'd thought we'd lost only to have them come up after a rest of a year or two...
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Carlo,
They take ages to differentiate into shoots. Mine had the nodules for months and months, never showing anything other than getting slightly larger. Now they've started to produce roots, still not showing any signs of "shooting". From that I am assuming it is just a matter of timing until Ian's do start to activate themselves. I think the nodules just sit there and keep absorbing nutrients from the old rhizome until they get to the right time of year/size/whatever starts them doing more. ;D
Fascinating things, aren't they.... Let's all be happy that the plant is still alive. Plenty of us have stories about plants that we'd thought we'd lost only to have them come up after a rest of a year or two...
Only time will tell :-\
I have a number of Paris which do not seem particularly happy with me. Can anyone offer advice about soil type and moisture levels etc. I have acid soil about PH 6.5 and the plants are in various parts of the garden mostly part or even full shade. Am I doing something wrong?
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Ian,
It sounds like you have the right conditions for growing Paris. Some species are a bit of challenge to grow well in the garden. Which Paris species do you have? And also, are your plants grown from seed or imported? I experienced that Paris plants we grew from seed do better in the garden than the ones we bought.
Robin
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Ian,
It sounds like you have the right conditions for growing Paris. Some species are a bit of challenge to grow well in the garden. Which Paris species do you have? And also, are your plants grown from seed or imported? I experienced that Paris plants we grew from seed do better in the garden than the ones we bought.
Robin
Hi Robin
I would have liked to try and raise from seed but this seems difficult to come by so my plants have been bought from UK nurseries as plants. However knowing the growers I don't think any of them will have been from directly imported plants.
I have
Paris Japonica in very shady spot
Paris polyphylla
Paris incompleta
and if it is still alive I have Paris Mairei also in a very shady spot
Non of them are doing particularly well just more or less staying as bought.
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I have had this Paris bought as P Mairei five years ago. For the first 3 years it grew but did not vary in size much. On the third year it died back early at the end of August when previously it had stayed in leaf until November. Since this time it has not shown above ground. I have removed the top soil carefully and found what I think is the rhizome which has some small whitish nodules showing but no strong buds. Does anyone have any experience of such behavious and is there any hope??
Ian I bought Paris liquangensis? from China in November 04. It has today produced its first shoot above ground.
It was a piece of rootless rhizome about as thick as a pencil and about 3 inches long when it arrived. I have inspected it regularly and it has rotted back along the rhizome towards the growing point slowly but the front bit remained firm. I may get it to flowering size in a few or many years.
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An update on my Paris luquanensis which appeared a few weeks ago after several years underground.
Last night a slug ate it. It left no indication as to whether it had enjoyed this exotic meal other than it left nothing visible above ground so it must have had a satisfactory flavour. Hopefully not another five years before it reappears.
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Noooooooooooooo! :o
Isn't that just the worst feeling! >:(
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Hi all, I may be getting excited about nothing but I have flowered paris japonica for at least 10 years and have never known it to set seed and all the people I have contacted say the same. I have a plant in the garden this year with no less than 3 seed pods and a plant with 1 seed pod, anyone else ever had seed/ I post a picture, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Fingers crossed, Ian. If it is looking different to usual that has to be a good sign, particularly if you've been growing it for 10 year and never had it look like this before. It looks like it is such a nice flower, so I'm wondering if no-one is getting seed whether it is mainly all from a single clone that normally doesn't set seed? And you just happened to have the right conditions for it to set this year. Everything crossed for you. 8)
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Ian,
This is very exciting news! I would love to see some pics when the fruit is ripe and also from the seed itself.
The Paris japonica plant you gave us last year, produced 3 stems and 1 flower. I tried to crosspolinate it with pollen from 5 different Paris species but without success.
regards,
Robin
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Hi Paul and Robin, I was informed several years ago that only one clone of Paris japonica was in cultivation so no chance of seed. I do have several other Paris growing nearby but I do not think cross pollination is possible as all are in different sections with Paris japonica so different ,any way I always say that plants have not read the books so maybe I will keep you posted, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Ian,
I am so hoping that you're successful with seed. It then means that you break the "clone lock" that stops seed set, because from that point there will always be more than one clone in cultivation (providing of course you or whoever you share the seeds with is successful in raising the offspring). More than just fingers crossed.... absolutely everything crossed. ;D
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Hi all. we had a really bad storm over the weekend with very heavy rain this storm broke the stem with one seed pod of the Paris japonica, I split this open today and post the picture taken of the seed which looks good to me I will watch the other seed pods which will perhaps ripen a bit more, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Ian,
Fantastic. Definitely seeds, which is great. To my eye they look like they'd be quite viable too wouldn't they? They certainly don't look half formed or anything?
Congratulations on them not being "blind" seedpods!! 8)
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I've germinated Paris polyphylla inside zip lock bags (about 7 months from sowing)----and this is what the seedlings look like.
Can I assume that the enlarged section right under the still-attached seed is the beginning of the rhizome/tuber and should be planted under the soil level?
Can I expect this to be hardy for average winters of -15C?
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Kristl,
I can't help with the temperature questions, but need to contribute a Paris seed observation.....
I have been sorting through some of my seed pots this week, some of which may perhaps have been in their original seed pots for slightly longer than is usually recommented (you'll see what I mean in a moment) and came across a pot of Paris quadrifolia with a couple of nice 3-part leaves in the pot and some brand new seedlings germinating in there as well.... you know, the little linear initial leaf that they get. These were originally sown in (and here is the bit bout them perhaps being in their original seed pot a little longer than they should have been), wait for it..... 2003. So, 6 years after sowing them I have had seed germinate of Paris quadrifolia. It might be a good thing after all that I didn't get them repotted, although usually in a case like these I would just pot the whole thing up into a bigger pot (which is going to happen shortly). I was amazed that after 6 years sitting there they were now germinating. Of course, if I'd treated the pot properly the original germinations would have been flowering by now. ::)
I thought it was an observation that people might be interested in. There have been no Trillium or Paris flowering in the shadehouse in the ensuing years, so these could not be later seed that had been added unwittingly. Talk about delaying their germination. :-\
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Paul,
Thanks for your observation. Every year for about ten years I collected fresh seed of P quadrifolia from a roadside verge near my old workplace and I never germinated any - I now wonder if this is because I never kept the pots for more than two or three years before giving up!
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Paris quadrifolia seeds itself in my place and the cotyledon is annoyingly like a Trillium. Also a young plant is annoyingly similar to a Trillium seedling.
However, Unlike the other members of Trilliaceae (or trillioidae) they have creeping rhizomes that spread and divide so germination is not so important in proliferation.
If they like the situation they will easily cover a few square meters.
Obvously I have never tried to germinate them so I have no experience but the number of berries that appear every year is alrge compared with the number of seedlings that appear so viability may be low.
Cheers
Göte
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I've germinated Paris polyphylla inside zip lock bags (about 7 months from sowing)----and this is what the seedlings look like.
Can I assume that the enlarged section right under the still-attached seed is the beginning of the rhizome/tuber and should be planted under the soil level?
I experienced with all the Paris species I grow that the seeds germinate (appearance of the cotyledon) after the second winter. only a radicle and the beginning of a rhizome (all below surface) is formed after the first winter. I think it is best to plant these 'seedlings' now just below surface covered with a layer of grit.
Can I expect this to be hardy for average winters of -15C?
Last winter we had -15°C and we lost some unprotected Paris plants in pots. We had no losses in the garden but we always cover our plants with a layer of leaves or pine needles. So I would give your Paris 'seedlings' some protection from the cold.
regards,
Robin
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Hi all,
The genus Paris is divided in 4 sections. One of them is the section 'Paris' with species as P. quadrifolia, incompleta, verticillata, bashanensis and tetraphylla. They all have slender branching rhizomes, axile placentation and a non-dehiscent berry. When sown they germinate after 2 years. As Göte said, the cotyledons of P. quadrifolia ressemble those of Trillium.
Paris quadrifolia cotyledons
Paris incompleta cotyledons
Trillium chloropetalum cotyledons
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Robin,
This definitely confirms that I have new germination after 6 years then, because that is exactly what my quadrifolia pot has in it at the moment. So what do the other Paris cotyledons look like? I've not yet germinated any other Paris than quadrifolia, so they are all I have seen.
Thanks.
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Robin,
Thank you. That was very useful---and before seeing your reply that is what my intuition told me to do. After the appearance of the cotyledon, can I then also assume that subsequent cold will again be required before the first leaf appears?
Kristl
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So what do the other Paris cotyledons look like?
Paul,
I posted some pictures of cotyledons of other Paris species in message nr 74 of this thread, page 5,
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2492.msg83191#msg83191
After the appearance of the cotyledon, can I then also assume that subsequent cold will again be required before the first leaf appears?
Kristl,
yes, the cotyledon stays untill winter arrives and the first true leaf appears in the following spring.
Robin
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Thanks Robin, I'd forgotten about those. So the cotyledons look a lot like many of the second year leaves of Trilliums then, although probably a bit smaller. Fascinating to have details like that. Thanks again.
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Hi all,
The genus Paris is divided in 4 sections. One of them is the section 'Paris' with species as P. quadrifolia, incompleta, verticillata, bashanensis and tetraphylla. They all have slender branching rhizomes, axile placentation and a non-dehiscent berry. When sown they germinate after 2 years. As Göte said, the cotyledons of P. quadrifolia ressemble those of Trillium.
Paris quadrifolia cotyledons
Paris incompleta cotyledons
Trillium chloropetalum cotyledons
I stand corrected. :-[
I meant "unlike the other genera" meaning that I accept Paris japonica as Kinugasa japonica and the Daisvas as a separate genus.
I grow something that I bougt at the Gothenburg botanical garden as Paris hexaphylla that perhaps should be added to the list.
It looks like a quadrifolia but a mature plant will have six leaves. It is not as good doer in my place as the native quadrifolia and I think I posted a picture this spring.
Cheers
Göte
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Göte,
I went back to see your picture of Paris hexaphylla in the thread 'flowering now - may 2009' reply 37 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3510.msg91133#msg91133). I read somewhere that P. hexaphylla is a synonym for P. verticillata and it certainly looks like verticillata.
regards,
Robin
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Göte,
I went back to see your picture of Paris hexaphylla in the thread 'flowering now - may 2009' reply 37 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3510.msg91133#msg91133). I read somewhere that P. hexaphylla is a synonym for P. verticillata and it certainly looks like verticillata.
regards,
Robin
Personally I have no idea. It looks more like a six leaf quadrifolia than the verticillatas I have seen but this may have local reasons.
However, Flora of China gives you right but the confusion seems near-total. http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/PDF/PDF24/paris.pdf
My only book on the subject is in Chinese so it would take me too long time to lok it up. I would have believed that the guys and dolls at Gothenburg would have known ;D
I suppose this is another case of splitter's/lumper's paradise. ;D ;D
Cheers
Göte
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Hi all,
I noticed that I wrote a mistake in reply 118. A little bit of botany to make it right:
the genus Paris is divided in 2 subgenera: Subgenus Daiswa and subgenus Paris.
There are 5 (not 4!) sections within the 2 subgenera: 3 sections (Euthyra, Thibeticae and Axiparis) within subgenus Daiswa and 2 sections (Paris and Kinugasa) within subgenus Paris.
All the species of subgenus Daiswa have a tick rhizome and an angular ovary.
The 3 sections differ in placentation type, fruit type and aril type:
Section Euthyra contains species with:
- parietal placentation (seeds develop on the wall of the one-chambered seed capsule)
- a dehiscent seed capsule (splits open when ripe)
- white seeds that are fully covered with a red-orange aril
Section Thibeticae contains one species (Paris thibetica) with:
- parietal placentation
- a dehiscent seed capsule
- black seeds that are partially covered with a red-orange aril
Section Axiparis contains species with:
- axillary placentation (seeds develop around a center that divides the capsule in different chambres)
- a non-dehiscent (doesn't split open when ripe but falls of the plant) seed capsule or berry
- white seeds that are covered with an imperfect ('spongy') aril
All the species of subgenus Paris have axillary placentation and seeds without aril.
The 2 sections differ in rhizome type, fruit type and ovary shape:
Section Paris contains species with:
- a slender rhizome
- a berry
- a rounded ovary
Section Kinugasa contains one species (Paris japonica) with:
- a thick rhizome
- a non-dehiscent capsule and seeds with an elaiosoom (see photo in reply 111: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2492.105)
- a angular ovary
subgenus Daiswa - section Euthyra: Paris polyphylla var chinensis (flower)
subgenus Daiswa - section Euthyra: Paris polyphylla var chinensis (fruit)
subgenus Daiswa - section Euthyra: Paris polyphylla var chinensis (seeds without aril)
subgenus Daiswa - section Thibeticae: Paris thibetica (flower)
subgenus Daiswa - section Thibeticae: Paris thibetica (fruit)
subgenus Daiswa - section Axiparis: Paris axialis (flower)
subgenus Daiswa - section Axiparis: Paris axialis (fruit)
subgenus Daiswa - section Axiparis: Paris axialis (fruit and seeds)
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Hi all,
some more pics to illustrate the above:
subgenus Daiswa: thick rhizome (of Paris delavayi)
subgenus Paris - section Paris: slender rhizome (of Paris incompleta)
subgenus Paris - section Paris: Paris incompleta (flower)
subgenus Paris - section Paris: Paris incompleta (berry)
subgenus Paris - section Kinugasa: Paris japonica (flower)
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Totally fascinating, Robin. Many thanks for posting.
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Robin
great information and pictures,thank you
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Robin thanks very informative in an area where there is little information available. Thank you for posting
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Robin, Ian and I agree with all the comments above..... too little info about these plants .... now you are filling the gap! Well done!
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Excellent info, Robin. Thanks. I just love P. japonica!! 8)
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Really interesting Robin,
Nothing beats actually growing and looking at the living specimen.
Are you familiar with Susan Farmer's thesis? It treats Kinugasa as a separate species.
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/articleBEN.html
Your comments to that are most welcome.
I seem to have read somewhere that somebody floated the theory that it is an ancient Trlllium/Paris hybrid with doubled number of chromosomes.
Cheers
Göte
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Göte,
I am familiar with the work of Susan Farmer, but I based my writing on a more recent molecular study: http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/98/1/245
regards,
Robin
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May I make the following comments, if they have not previously been made by others. Hopefully this will not all be old news.
My studies are limited to Paris quadrifolia and P. polyphylla only.
Both of these seem to follow the very familiar germination pattern of Trillium grandiflorum. That is to say, when cleaned and moist packed fresh after collection and kept at warm, germination occurs the first season, anywhere from 4-6 months (radicle only). A cold period is then required for first leaf emergence (hypogeal).
If one had the proper facilities to keep them at warm until mid to late fall, and then provide cold, one could certainly get these species through their first stage to cotyledon emergence fairly quickly (as is being done with Trillium grandiflorum by some growers).
I have now repeated the Paris quadrifolia experiment three times, with exactly the same results. And germination at the warm phase is quite phenomenal (I would say over 90%). So, Paul, when you said you had germination over a 6 year period, I would explain that as inconsistent moisture and temperature regimes over that long period. My zip lock bags are kept at fairly consistent moisture and warm temperature levels throughout the period of moist packing.
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Wim - Right, those are the ones. Thanks. I hoped versipelle might be there so I could see if there's a possibility the cross took.
johnw
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Kristl,
I can verify your results with Paris quadrifolia, after a few months in warmth the radicles are sprouting.
But how long a cold period would you say is needed in order to develop the leaf ?