Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Plant Identification => Plant Identification Questions and Answers => Topic started by: johnw on August 20, 2008, 05:35:48 PM
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I wonder if anyone knows which species this is? It was collected in the mountains of Mexico by a friend who I have had trouble contacting. The plant grows to about 2.5 ft high. The flowers are almost black and small. Visitors always mistakenly admire it as the chocolate cosmos. It started to open last night and already the earwigs have been chomping on the petals. The fragrance is of intense chocolate, I wonder which pollinator is lured by this? Maggi excluded.
johnw
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No idea John, but interesting that it has the same or similar scent. A chocolate Dahlia? Send it to Maggi. The leaves of the cosmos are thinner and finer, (different anyway) and edged with reddish green. Wonder how hardy this one is?
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Like Lesley I have no idea John, but it looks very similar to Dahlia 'Dark Desire' so I wonder if it is one of its parents, unfortunately if it is it didn't pass on the scent!
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I have no idea how hardy it is but I can tell you it is not the easiest to get through the winter in dry storage. I have almost lost it completely on several occasions, my friend lost it but I was able to replace it. I cannot imagine it wintering in the ground with any dampness.
I would love to get it to interested parties for safety's sake. I will try to make seed but this is fairly late to expect it to ripen before frost.
If I sent to Maggi I would first register it as D. 'Chocolate Carousel'.
johnw
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John,
Certainly looks like a Dahlia, particularly the bud picture that you showed. I too would be another interested in growing it, and the chocolate scent would be a real bonus. LOVE black flowers!!!!! I find the species dahlias rather appealing.... so much more delicate than the bigger hybrid types, although they most certainly have their place in the summer garden, that is for sure. Good luck with setting seed on it, as it would be well worthwhile getting it off to someone to make sure that there is backup somewhere outside of your garden for safety sake.
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John, just send Maggi the actual chocolate! ;)
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Ian,
I don't know.... if she gets too much chocolate her feet might end up as big as in that portrait she posted. We wouldn't want that, now would we. ;D
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John,
Certainly looks like a Dahlia, particularly the bud picture that you showed. I too would be another interested in growing it, and the chocolate scent would be a real bonus. LOVE black flowers!!!!! I find the species dahlias rather appealing.... so much more delicate than the bigger hybrid types, although they most certainly have their place in the summer garden, that is for sure. Good luck with setting seed on it, as it would be well worthwhile getting it off to someone to make sure that there is backup somewhere outside of your garden for safety sake.
Paul - I'll send you some seed if it sets. I suppose a sliver of tuber in the mail is not possible???
johnw
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Ian,
I don't know.... if she gets too much chocolate her feet might end up as big as in that portrait she posted. We wouldn't want that, now would we. ;D
I read all this stuff, y'know!! :-\ :-[
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Egads Maggi, I'd never thought of that!! :P
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Paul - I'll send you some seed if it sets. I suppose a sliver of tuber in the mail is not possible???
johnw
Hi John,
A sliver of tuber would be verboten! But the seed would also have to have a "species" name attached! These are currently allowed into Australia:
Dahlia coccinea;D. coccinea x pinnata;D. dissecta;D. excelsa;D. gracilis;D. imperialis;D.
maximiliana;D. maxonii;D. merckii;D. pinnata;D. popenovii;D. sherffii;D. sherriffi;D. tenuicaulis;D. variabilis;D. x cultorum.
cheers
fermi (I'll wait till Paul has a spare tuber from the seed you'll send him!)
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John,
No, seed only in the mail, no tubers. Thank you for the offer on both counts, but only seed if it is successful in setting. Otherwise, there are always other years. ;D Just make sure for your sake that you send a tuber if you have one spare to someone who can act as your backup in case you do lose yours one dormancy. Nothing worse than losing something you can't replace.
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Fermi,
Well, there's a lot on that list I've never seen or heard of. :o
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John,
I have poured over many papers, old and new, on Dahlia classification and can find nothing that describes what I see in the pictures. Of course, no mention is made of scent. Mostly because it is variable by plant and detector. I found a few with dark purple flowers in the description, but to call those dark purple would be a leap. I see brown-maroon, chocolate, or whatever color you may wish to call, maybe dark purple was what they thought they saw when it was described from a long dead plant pressed flat and faded.
It is a Dahlia. The leaves are correct and so is the flower structure. Then again, the Asteraceae is prone to extreme splitting and lumping.
If you fear losing it try propagation from leaf cuttings. Now is the recommended time. Two papers mention leaf cuttings, either the terminal leaflet where it separates from the other two or from the stem/petiole junction (the stem does not need to be damaged), placing them in sand and rooting like you would anything else. No mention was made of hormones. Roots should begin to form and them, hopefully by fall small tubers. If not and you have the ability to keep them growing over the winter they will eventually form tubers. One paper only used D. variabilis (?) and the other made no mention of a particular species, which I assume means they used hybrids. Either way it is worth a try. If that fails I'll be doing a class next year on in-vitro propagation where I could try it.
If they do root, but make no tubers, I have access to the U of TN greenhouse where I work if you want and are willing to send some my way for preservation and so I can smell the flowers!
I'll keep looking. There are some recent paper that I have not found yet online or in the Herbarium library.
All the best,
Aaron Floden
the Allium, if I never replied, does look like A. prattii.
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Aaron - Thanks for all this. I really don't have suitable conditions to keep it going through the winter with rooting in mind. I do have 3-4 backups here and have sent it to friends out west who have been dividing it and sharing. Sean Hogan at Cistus Nursery collected it. Three years ago I was able to get a piece back to him as he lost it. If it makes seed I can send you some too. Tubers always here if you happen into Canada.
Send me a pm with your address as I am going to NYC in 2 weeks and something might transpire.
johnw
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John, I would appreciate a bit of seed too please, to keep it going ;)
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John W,
A way to get dahlia tubers that survive winter storage more reliably is to grow some plants in pots. Start a tuber or cutting in a 10 cm plastic pot and plant it out, pot and all, with 3-4 cm of soil above the rim. Treat it normally through the growing season. The tubers mostly remain confined to the pot but thin feeder roots spread freely. Store the harvested tubers undisturbed in the pot, of course dry, cool and frost free. This is done for cultivars that make very poor tubers, and for a source of cuttings the following season for those that make few tubers.
Dahlia growers claim this technique makes better tubers. I believe the difference is that the hard-packed, dry soil effectively protects the tubers from desiccation, much as would occur naturally in the wild in Mexico.
John P
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I wonder if anyone knows which species this is? It was collected in the mountains of Mexico by a friend who I have had trouble contacting. The plant grows to about 2.5 ft high. The flowers are almost black and small. Visitors always mistakenly admire it as the chocolate cosmos. It started to open last night and already the earwigs have been chomping on the petals. The fragrance is of intense chocolate, I wonder which pollinator is lured by this? Maggi excluded.
johnw
...now this is a rather interesting and quite beautiful plant! it would be so interesting to see it 'live'... to even grow it! Hope that your example will survive the winter so it can be divided and thus kept on in the capable hands of many dahlia lover...
yours, matti
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Hello, John P ...good to see you back again! This seems like very sound advice about the dahlia...which might be repeated for other plants, rather than storing them overwinter un-potted, I believe.
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I wonder if anyone knows which species this is? It was collected in the mountains of Mexico by a friend who I have had trouble contacting. The plant grows to about 2.5 ft high. The flowers are almost black and small. Visitors always mistakenly admire it as the chocolate cosmos. It started to open last night and already the earwigs have been chomping on the petals. The fragrance is of intense chocolate, I wonder which pollinator is lured by this? Maggi excluded.
johnw
hello, John...
is there any possibility to recieve some seeds on this rather hot dahlia... ???
yours, Matt
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Attention all you dahliaeous types. The chocolate Dahlia has many flowers on it now including the remains if the ones I selfed. As I promised a few people seed, the problem is what do the ripe pods look like and how quickly do they ripen. The flowers as you know close after a few days and remain that way, the head(?) turns yellowish but doesn't drop or rot. I have not the foggiest how to proceed to ripe seed stage. Suppose I could dissect a few few to see what lies within.
johnw
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When I collected seeds from D. merckii it was from dry heads that were still attached to the plant. The seeds were realeased by gently squeezing and roolong the seed head between my fingers.
Can I beg/swap some?
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Hi John,
I concur with Mark about waiting till the seedhead dries. If the weather looks inclement you could always keep them to dry inside once they look as mature as they going to get. Dahlia seed that I've seen has usually been dark brown or grey/black and stand out from the chaff.
cheers
fermi
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Once the seedhead is ready it really does just start to fall apart. Lots of papery chaff in there as well, plus the long thin darker seeds amongst it. Hopefully you're successful in harvesting some, and then hopefully we're all successful in germinating it. Keeping my fingers and toes well and truly crossed for success!! 8)
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re: the chocolate Dahlia seed
Paul T, fermides, Matti, Brian E. and Mark S
I have just picked through quite a few of the mushy seed heads of the Dahlia and got 3 large seeds which look excellent. I realize I have promised all four of you seeds so here is what I propose:
I will send the seed to the Aussies as tubers are out of the question. Three seems so few, if the Aussies can agree on to whom I should send the seed they can share the seed or plants later. Hopefully I will find a few more seeds later as the rest ripen but I thought it a good idea to get these 3 off pronto so the Aussies can sprout them now in spring.
I can send Brian E. some tubers via a friend this spring and maybe he would agree to relay a piece to Matti in Finland.
Sorry to post this here.
Does this sound reasonable?
johnw
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re: the chocolate Dahlia seed
Paul T, fermides, Matt and Mark S
I have just picked through quite a few of the mushy seed heads of the Dahlia and got 3 large seeds which look excellent. I realize I have promised all four of you seeds so here is what I propose:
I will send the seed to the Aussies as tubers are out of the question. Three seems so few, if the Aussies can agree on to whom I should send the seed they can share the seed or plants later. Hopefully I will find a few more seeds later as the rest ripen but I thought it a good idea to get these 3 off pronto so the Aussies can sprout them now in spring.
I can send Mark S. some tubers via a friend this spring and maybe he would agree to relay a piece to Matt in Finland.
Sorry to post this here.
Does this sound reasonable?
johnw
How super.... if only all countries/peoples could arrange such mutually beneficial co-operations :D
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re: the chocolate Dahlia seed
Paul T, fermides, Matt and Mark S
I have just picked through quite a few of the mushy seed heads of the Dahlia and got 3 large seeds which look excellent. I realize I have promised all four of you seeds so here is what I propose:
I will send the seed to the Aussies as tubers are out of the question. Three seems so few, if the Aussies can agree on to whom I should send the seed they can share the seed or plants later. Hopefully I will find a few more seeds later as the rest ripen but I thought it a good idea to get these 3 off pronto so the Aussies can sprout them now in spring.
I can send Mark S. some tubers via a friend this spring and maybe he would agree to relay a piece to Matt in Finland.
Sorry to post this here.
Does this sound reasonable?
johnw
Whoops, I missed Brian Ellis and I meant Matti not Matt. I can get the tubers to Brian in the next few months and he can relay some to Mark and Matti if willing.
johnw
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Only too happy to John, glad you hadn't really forgotten me 8)
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Yes and thanks.
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re: the chocolate Dahlia seed
Paul T, fermides, Matti, Brian E. and Mark S
I have just picked through quite a few of the mushy seed heads of the Dahlia and got 3 large seeds which look excellent. I realize I have promised all four of you seeds so here is what I propose:
I will send the seed to the Aussies as tubers are out of the question. Three seems so few, if the Aussies can agree on to whom I should send the seed they can share the seed or plants later. Hopefully I will find a few more seeds later as the rest ripen but I thought it a good idea to get these 3 off pronto so the Aussies can sprout them now in spring.
I can send Brian E. some tubers via a friend this spring and maybe he would agree to relay a piece to Matti in Finland.
Sorry to post this here.
Does this sound reasonable?
johnw
ok... as there is this little of seeds it seems fair enought... If Mark S. is willing to relay a piece of tuber to me here in Finland, he can contact me then thru' privatemessage... and get the address... =O)
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I suppose I should treasure the tuber and take cuttings in the spring to root and pass around
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I can even imagine a couple of seeds reaching this country, in a couple of years, perhaps sailing the Great Southern Ocean, or on the back of a Royal Albatross.
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Mark - it will be a good-sized chunk I send Brian so do propagate it and get it around.
Leslie - miracles do happen.
johnw
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re: the chocolate Dahlia seed
Paul T, fermides, Matti, Brian E. and Mark S
I have just picked through quite a few of the mushy seed heads of the Dahlia and got 3 large seeds which look excellent. I realize I have promised all four of you seeds so here is what I propose:
I will send the seed to the Aussies as tubers are out of the question. Three seems so few, if the Aussies can agree on to whom I should send the seed they can share the seed or plants later. Hopefully I will find a few more seeds later as the rest ripen but I thought it a good idea to get these 3 off pronto so the Aussies can sprout them now in spring.
I can send Brian E. some tubers via a friend this spring and maybe he would agree to relay a piece to Matti in Finland.
Sorry to post this here.
Does this sound reasonable?
johnw
ok... as there is this little of seeds it seems fair enought... If Mark S. is willing to relay a piece of tuber to me here in Finland, he can contact me then thru' privatemessage... and get the address... =O)
hmmm... or is it Brian E. I should address on this matter... ??!!! ;O))
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Lesley,
If it is like the other species Dahlia seed I've grown, it should be flowering here by the end of the season, so one can but hope for the flowers being true to the parent, and then setting seed. If I can get 2 seedlings to flowering size I'll cross them too, to try to maximise seed set. I'm not counting my chickens just yet though, the seed hasn't even got here let alone germinated and got to flowering size! ;D Our longer flowering season for Dahlias here should help too.
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hmmm... or is it Brian E. I should address on this matter... ??!!! ;O))
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Matti - I will be easier, faster and cheaper for my courier to get the tubers to Brian so he has agreed to relay them.
Sorry for the confusion - I had forgotten Brian wanted seed as well.
johnw
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Send me a PM with your address Matti and you shall get it in due course. ;)
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just had to let You guys know...the tuber I recieved thru' Brian is doing splendidly and just couple of weeks ago it started flowering... hoping to get some seeds from it! The plant is exquisite, even though I have to say that it's over all appearance is more that of potato than that of a dahlia! Flowers are smaller that those of single dahlias & double the size of chocolate cosmos.... color of the flower is propably the darkest I've seen (very near black)--->>> makes chocolate cosmos look like bright red flower!! Some how it does look to me as if it is something in between dahlia & cosmos atrosanguinea.... BUT I just LOVE it..... a real BEAUTY!!! ;O)
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Great, that is good news, Matti. A success story is always nice to hear!
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Matti - Do you not realize Maggi is watching and reading everything? To even suggest genetically engineered chocolate potatoes...
johnw
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;D... hmmm... I just think that there is something hidden meaning in that comment??!!!! ;D ;) Anyway, I'm so proud of my dahlia/potato/cosmos that I'm just not worried about anything... 8)