Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Plant Identification => Plant Identification Questions and Answers => Topic started by: Susan Band on June 27, 2008, 07:33:26 PM
-
I know I have tried in the past, but am still looking for a name for this lovely Cremanthodium.
To make matters worse I now have 2 other similar ones also without names. I will photo these tomorrow and add them to the list.
Seed (or small seedling) available to anyone who can name it ;)
Susan
-
Have you got a better pic of the leaves?
-
Here is a photo of the 2nd Cremanthodium. It has gone over a bit, but the flowers were not any better when they were out, I kept waiting for them to improve, they seemed to be missing a lot of petals.
The left hand leaf is from the first Crem. and the right is from this one. All parts of the first plant have these wooly hairs. Don't worry you don't have to take seeds from the 2nd one ;) The 3rd Crem. is in the field so I will have to wait until I go over for a picture, it is the best.
Susan
-
There's a key in the FoC draft (http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/mss/volume21/Asteraceae-AGH-Senecioneae-part1_coauthoring.htm).
-
Thanks Arisaema, I had looked at that but decided it might take me a year to work through it :-\
I had thought the 2nd one could perhaps be a Ligularia not a Cremanthodium ?
The first one is so distinct with its woolly stems and leaves and is so garden worthy I thought there must be someone else growing it out there ?
Even a list of what it is not would be helpful.
Susan
-
I was thinking the same thing about that key, but with some details we shoud be able to limit the possibilites down to a handfull or so. The stem is leafless, right? Is there one or two rows of involucral bracts (#39a/b)?
ETA: Do you know where the seeds were collected?
-
The stem is leafless but there are thin brown tails up the stem and around the flowers. I don't know if they would be called bracts as they are irregular and quite far down the stem as well. There is one row of proper bracts plus these others.
I got it as a plant from China quite a few years ago. It sets and grows well from seed.
Thanks for your interest.
Susan
-
I think I've narrowed it down to two possibilities, but you should take them with a grain (or tablespoon) of salt. Are you sure there's only one row of bracts around the flower head? C. obovatum seems a better fit than C. petiolatum, so read both descriptions.
1a. Leaves reniform or orbicular-reniform, palmately veined.
1b. Leaves variable in shape, pinnately or parallel veined.
18a. Leaves bluish green or grayish green, linear to broadly elliptic, parallel or straight veined.
18b. Leaves green or differently colored on both surfaces, lanceolate to oblong, pinnately veined.
So far, so good...
24a. Ligules broadly oblanceolate or cuneate, apex truncate, lobed.
- 25a. Leaves pinnatipartite to pinnatisect.
- 25b. Leaf margin entire or dentate, rarely lobed.
- - 27a. Leaves spatulate, base truncate, margin triangularly dentate or denticulate; pappus white; stem densely white pilose ................................................................ 27. C. sino-oblongatum
- - 27b. Leaves hastate or ovate-cordate, margin entire to lobed or crenate, base cordate; pappus pale brown; stem glabrous.
C. sino-oblongatum has numerous stem leaves, and "capitulum usually solitary" - moving on...
24b. Ligules elliptic, lanceolate to linear-lanceolate, apex acute or acuminate.
- 29a. Plants greenish gray or bluish green, glabrous, usually mealy; stem leaves numerous, erect, adnate, tubular-amplexicaul or only base amplexicaul.
- 29b. Plants green, hairy, at least stem distally and involucre at base, rarely glabrous.
- - 39a. Involucral bracts in 1 row, equal in size, base united, cupular.
- - - 40a. Leaves larger, 12–15 × 6–9 cm; petiole 15–30 cm; capitula 3, in corymb-raceme, long pedunculate; involucre outside black pilose; ligules linear-lanceolate . 40. C. petiolatum
- - - 40b. Leaves small, 0.7–6 × 1–4 cm, shortly petiolate; capitulum solitary; involucre outside black or white pilose; ligules oblong.
...and the other possibility:
- - 39b. Involucral bracts in 2 rows, separate, outer narrow, inner broad, outside glabrous or hairy.
- - - 45a. Ligulate florets absent; involucre outside densely dark brown pilose; leaves abaxially greenish white, adaxially dark green, margin entire ................................................. 46. C. discoideum
- - - 45b. Ligulate florets persistent; if ligulate florets absent or with short ligules, then involucre outside blackish gray pilose; leaf margin coarsely dentate.
- - - - 46a. Capitula large; ligules well developed, tapelike, long-lanceolate to linear-lanceolate, usually 2–4 × as long as involucre, apex acuminate.
- - - - - 47a. Leaves densely hairy, oblong, obovate to orbicular; involucre outside white and black pilose.
- - - - - 47b. Leaves glabrous, variable in shape; involucre outside blackish purple-brown or white pilose, rarely glabrous.
- - - - - - 48a. Leaves densely white pilose, base narrowed into a broadly winged petiole; capitula 1–4, solitary or in corymb-raceme .................................................... 47. C. obovatum
- - - - - - 48b. Leaves densely shortly white pilose, base rounded, slenderly petiolate; capitulum solitary 48. C. puberulum
Second option:
- - - - 46b. Capitula small; ligules undeveloped, oblong, elliptic to linear, often 1–2 × as long as involucre.
- - - - - 54a. Capitula 2–13, in raceme; stem leaves normal; plant robust, tall.
- - - - - 54b. Capitulum solitary; stem leaves bracteal, ovate-oblong to linear; plant dwarf.
No match.
-
Judging from Finn Haugli's Tromso pictures, the Norwegians grow them in variety and better than anyone else. :)
-
Neither description jumps out as being quite right. I will take time later and go through it more carefully, sit by the plant with the description and a glass of wine :)
Lesley, that's why I am pining my hopes on Ariseama or some other Norwegian, for some reason Cremanthodiums are not grown much in Scotland. Perhaps because they flower after all the shows are past :-\
Susan
-
No, you're right, the leaves on C. obovatum are wrong. Maybe the elimination method is better, there aren't that many species with serrated, pinnately veined leaves and more than one flower per stem :)
-
It seems to me that either the Cremanthodium species vary a lot, or there are speceis around still not properly identified. According to my friend Ole Olsen near Tromsø, they also hybridice in the garden. He even thinks he has got a hybrid between Ligularia and Cremanthodium.
-
Thanks Magnar and Ariseama for all your help, seeds to both of you when they are ready :) I doubt I will have to wait until someone decides to write a book on them before I can find the right name.
Magnar do you think your friend will have seen it and might know more about it? Could you pass a photo on to him, as Lesley said, Tromso is famous for its Cremanthodiums. Here is one last picture to show how garden worthy it is and why it should be grown more.
If I remember I will put some seed into the SRGC exchange with the name Crem. sp. so look out anyone else who wants it.
Susan
-
Ha, you're not done yet.
Here is the 3rd Cremanthodium, this time grown from seed. Maybe it is more well known. It looks a bit like Admins Crem. ellisii that is shown on the main srgc page in the plant portraits. What do you think Mr Admin?
Again a super garden plant.
The pic of the leaves is from a smaller non flowering plant.
Susan
Again seeds for anyone who has a good guess.
-
No IDs from me of course, I've never seen one, let alone grown it. A comment however. The size and general conformation of these species brings to my mind, the megaherbs of the islands of the Great Southern Ocean - Auckland, Campbell, Antipodes, Macquarie Islands and others. These megaherbs are notoriously difficult to cultivate in places that are warmer or drier than their native habitats. Since the islands must to some extent have similarities of climate to those of northern Scandinavia, especially high summer, low winter light levels, this could explain the relative ease with which they're being cultivated in Norwary, and apparently, the north of Scotland. But do these climates have much in common with the Himalayan homes of the Cremanthodium species? and why are Meconopsis and many other larger alpines from that region easy in comparison, in gardens with warmer, drier climates, right here in mid, coastal NZ for instance?
-
Susan - I sent the link to this page to Finn Haugli in Tromso. I'm sure you know he was in charge of the Botanical Garden there from its reception to his recent retirement. I will never forget my visit there in early June, early I was told in advance and to expect snow on the ground, but they had a very early Spring and I caught the Meconopsis in full bloom, saxs too. I will never forget that garden and its plants - heaven on earth.
Hopefully he may have some ideas to share on these perplexing plants.
johnw
-
Lesley,
I saw pictures of these herbs a good few years ago, I think it was Steve Newell who showed them from borrowed slides. I was so impressed but since then I have not heard much about them. I would love to have a go at growing them but I believe it is not easy to get seed as they are so protected.
I remember the large daisys. I persume these Crems. come from an area that is in the monsoon or that they are subject to a lot of mists.
I think the same reasoning about growing them applies to all plants, out of 2 species growing next to each other in the wild one will take to cultivation and one won't. Some just don't like being tamed ;D
Thanks John for forwarding this thread,Finn is perhaps our best bet.
Susan
-
Susan - Here is Finn's reply received this morning. Hope this is a start.
johnw
"Hi John.
To me these Cremanthodiums look mostly like C. ellisii and C. arnicoides - or possibly even a hybrid between these. I have to say though that I am not going by strict botanical criteria, but rather a visual comparison to plants I know.
Here things are going well - also with the Rhododendrons. They have never been so full of flowers. The 'Minas Grand Pre' is really excellent - and many of the hybrids obtained from you are also starting to do their things. This summer in my own garden I am most impressed with a R. wardii of KGB origin - and a R. souliei which I got from Glendoick 15-20 years ago. The garden has been really excellent in most other regards also. Cool weather have allowed plants to stay in flower for a long time. The R. in the Arctic-alpine Botanic Garden have been really stunning this summer. A number of new Taliensia from Glendoick have been planted recently."
-
Here's the plant I grow as C. arnicoides
Leaves today:
(http://magnar.aspaker.no/P7017131.JPG)
Old pic of the plant in bloom
(http://magnar.aspaker.no/Cremanthodium%20arnicoides.JPG)
-
...and a pic of C. arnicoides from Himalayan Plants Illustrated (http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%92%E3%83%9E%E3%83%A9%E3%83%A4%E6%A4%8D%E7%89%A9%E5%A4%A7%E5%9B%B3%E9%91%91%E2%88%92Himalayan-Plants-Illustrated-%E5%90%89%E7%94%B0-%E5%A4%96%E5%8F%B8%E5%A4%AB/dp/4635580318/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214923577&sr=8-2):
-
Magnar,
Crem 3 certainly looks like your one, so I will go with Crem. arnicoides for it.
I will continue to work on Crem 1 and look up Finn's sugestion of ellisii .
Crem 2/ligularia isn't really worth a name so will forget about it for just now.
Thanks everyone for their help.
Susan