Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Lvandelft on May 08, 2008, 11:09:14 PM
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This week we have visited the Hortus Bulborum at Limmen, about 40 kms.
from our place. Roughly 15 kms. south of Alkmaar.
In this garden there are more than 3500 different bulbs, many of them rare.
Only of tulips there are about 2600 varieties.
Narcissus about 800 var's.
The oldest tulip is from 1595: Duc van Tol Red and Yellow.
I saw a bed with variegated Fritillaria imperialis, from the 17 th Century,
but flowering time was over already.
The aim is to preserve historic tulips and also to be a living reference collection.
The work is done by retired gardeners for free.
I made lots of pictures but first I show some pictures to let you know how it is looking.
Idyllic place in a small Dutch village
Breeder Tulipa beds
Breeder tulips text
GreigiiTulipa text
Tulipa acuminata bed
Tulipa beds 1
Tulipa beds 4
Tulipa beds 2
Tulipa julia known since 1849
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Most impressive to see beds cultivated of an almost 400 year old tulip:
Tulipa Lac van Rijn 1620 beds
Nice sitting betweenTulipa beds
Tulipa beds 5
Tulipa beds 3
Tulipa beds 6
There are also some very recent tulips to see:
Tulipa Triumph Group Marjolein Bastin 2005
Still flowering Early Double Tulipa's 2
Still flowering Early Double Tulipa's 1
If you want to see more tulips from this garden I can make some series.
Please let me know if you are interested.
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Luit,
A magnificent kaleidiscope of colour.
Paddy
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More great tulips from Holland. One name there rings a bell for me. Years ago (probably 40, my mother had a patch of Tulipa `Dillenburg.' I remember it was a lovely shape and of a beautiful soft orange colour.
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Luit - Wow, those T. acuminata are splendid!
johnw
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Luit,
So many colours, such interesting information, wonderful places!
Thank you!
Gerd
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Luit,
as always you astonish us with your excellent topics and superb pictures!!! Just great! I always entered Hortus Bulborum website's gallery to see thier updates with tulip photos, but unfortunately their gallery hasn't been updated for more than a year. And thanks a lot for that topic.
Pleased to see our native tulip tulipa juliae in your pics and breeder tulip beds. Breeder tulips are the ones I am most interested in lately. And by the way, I have something to consult with you. I found a very old coffee-brown tulip and wanted to show you the pics hoping that we can identify it. It survived in one of my collegue's garden from Soviet times. The colour is so strange that it is difficult to describe. The pics will come soon.
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Talking about colour.... there's some colour there Luit ! ;D
Stunning pictures ! Thanks for showing.
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What a wonderful place, and open for people to enjoy too!
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More great tulips from Holland. One name there rings a bell for me. Years ago (probably 40, my mother had a patch of Tulipa `Dillenburg.' I remember it was a lovely shape and of a beautiful soft orange colour.
At your service, Lesley.
Here is Tulipa Dillenburg, registred in 1916. It's still one of the latest tulips.
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What a lovely place Luit, more pictures please whenever you have the time.
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Thank you for `Dillenburg' Luit. Takes me right back to my late mother's garden. I wouldn't want to go there now, as it has a rather horrid house built on top of it. :'(
I think I'll have to try growing some tulips again. Too late for this year but next summer/autumn.....
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Luit I think this time next year you must organise a visit to your friends collection and this one. I would definitely come
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Lesley,
And here is my "Dillenburg" (5 photos in different conditions).
I LOVE THIS TULIP A LOT: wonderful colour, large flawers, nice fragrance and very late flowering habitat.
http://tulipdatabase.narod.ru/dillenburg.html
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What a place, Luit. impressive!! :o
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Thank you Zhirair for these lovely pictures. I can see you are really addicted to tulips. :)
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Luit,
what a color spectacle - superb! :o :o :o
I would be interested to visit this place next year... :P
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Luit,
what a color spectacle - superb! :o :o :o
I would be interested to visit this place next year... :P
You are welcome, Armin.
We decided already to go next year at least some weeks earlier and if time permits
another time too.
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Here some photo's of species tulips.
Behind the picture names the year of introduction as far as known.
Tulipa acuminata
Tulipa butkovii
Tulipa aucheriana 1883 Tulipa aximensis 1894
Tulipa boadicea 1915
Tulipa ferganica Vved. 1935
Tulipa fulgens
Tulipa orphanidea 1
Tulipa orphanidea 2
Tulipa linifolia Regel 1884
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Tulipa hageri Splendens
Tulipa iliensis 1879
Tulipa tetraphylla 1 1875
Tulipa maculata Globosa
Tulipa orphanideo Flavo 1970
Tulipa stellata
Tulipa tubergeniana Emir 1952
Tulipa gesneriana Spathulata
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Wunderful to see the wild tulips :o 8) ;D
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What stunning tulips these are.... the colours make me feel good just to look at them.
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The species can still beat the hybrids hands down I believe. And T. linifolia is the BEST of all. I had a beautiful Greenwood painting of it once.
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And by the way, I have something to consult with you. I found a very old coffee-brown tulip and wanted to show you the pics hoping that we can identify it. It survived in one of my collegue's garden from Soviet times. The colour is so strange that it is difficult to describe. The pics will come soon.
Zhirair, I can hardly wait to see that picture!
The "brown" tulips have long fascinated me. This year I grew 'Cairo' which in some light did look brown, especially in older flowers.
And wouldn't it be wonderful if your brown tulip turned out to be one of the famous old ones such as 'Cafe Brun', 'Clio' or 'Bronze Queen', 'Goudvink', 'Dom Pedro' or some other lost treasure.
I've attached two images of 'Cairo'; the color changes as the flower matures and the brown is most apparent (in our climate at least) in the oldest flowers.
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Here are some "Breeder" tulips:
Tulipa Breeder T. [Engl] Gold Tears
Tulipa Breeder T. Alcida 1916
Tulipa Breeder T. Copernicus 1916
Tulipa Breeder T. Corinna 1929
Tulipa Breeder T. Dom Pedro 1910
Tulipa Breeder T. Jaune d' Oeuf 1863
Tulipa Breeder T. Kathleen Truxton 1942
Tulipa Breeder T. Klopstock 1863
Tulipa Breeder T. Pesident Hoover 1930
Tulipa Breeder T. Prince of Wales 1863
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Luit,
Oh, my God. I am in a shock by all this beauty. Finally I can see breeder tulip photos, which are so rare nowadays. I know I won’t be able to sleep today, continually thinking about these treasures. I especially impressed by “Dom Pedro” and “Prince of Wales” (rue brown tulips). I don’t understand why they are excluded from tulip register???
Jim, the brown tulip I found is browner than “Cairo”. Tulip “Louis XIV” is still alive. It is sold in Russia by a famous grower. I have been ordering it for more than 6 years continually, but is a blockbuster and sells out very quickly; and I still can’t get it. But I grow a fringed sport of it with the same colour, which is called “The Skipper”.
And as I told, I post the pics of that brown tulip. The colour is very difficult to describe; approximately it is pale coffee-brown with slight pink overlay. Studying the official descriptions in Tulip register and taking into account the base colour, I think that it might be the variety “Dido” from SLT Cottage group. I would ask Luit to show the photo of “Dido”, if possible.
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And here are the photos of fringed sport from "Lous XIV" - "The Skipper"
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Relax Zhirair, I have to work a little and send a few others a bit later.
This brown one is very special. I'll ask around a bit here.
I don't have T. Dido, but maybe you are happy with a picture of Louis XIV?
Tulipa SLG Louis XIV
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Luit,
Thanks a lot>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!!!
I am a bit surprised at the appearance of "Louis XIV". Is it its true colour? I supposed it to be paler, because as far as I know it has the same colour as its fringed sport "The Skipper".
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Zhirair, when you open the picture you'll see that it might be the same
colour.
The problem is with your pictures that they are in a mixed arrangement and often some stronger
colours like yellow will have influence on the other colours when taking a photo.
So your fringes are yellowish and the brown is not so clear.
And my picture was taken in full sun.
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Luit,
My colleague from Russia, who grows "Louis XIV" supplied this photo for that tulip.
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Luit,
I know what you mean. That is why I asked you about its real colour, taking into acount all that nuances with making photos. You've seen it in a real and can give a clear reply with its true colour. Anyway, now its clear. I am just trying to make a better impression about these unusual-coloured wonderful breeder tulips.
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Luit,
My colleague from Russia, who grows "Louis XIV" supplied this photo for that tulip.
I did not see so much yellow in the flowers here!
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Now I just read what Jim McKenny wrote about Lois XIV, in Connoisseur Collection,
so we'll wait what he says about the pictures.
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and a few other Breeder tulips, followed by some Parrot tulips,
of which is perfecta a very old one from 1680.
and finally in this batch some single late tulips.
Tulipa Breeder T. Lord Stanley 1915
Tulipa Breeder T. Sans Pareille 1863
Tulipa Breeder T. Wilberforce 1913
Tulipa Parrot Group Giant Parrot 1972
Tulipa Parrot Group Ho Tcho 1985
Tulipa Parrot Group Perfecta 1680
Tulipa SLG Hildegard Knef 1978
Tulipa SLG Wim van Est 1952
Tulipa SLG Broadway 1985
Tulipa SLG Inglescombe Scarlet 1902
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Wonderful pictures Luit :o
I didn't realize Wim van Est had his own Tulip ;D so he didn't just become famous because of his watch ???
Thanks again for showing Luit.
Luc (from "B"....) ;)
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Luit,
Again, wonderful pictures!
I’ve never had affection for parrot tulips, but these old dragon tulips seem to be nicer than modern ones. Greigii parrot tulip “Giant parrot” is really catchy, bonused by a large size of flowers and good shape.
Breeder tulip “Lord Stanly” somewhat resembles me SLT “Irish Coffee” by colour grown by my Lithuanian colleague.
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Liut,
Do you have a picture of SLG "Inglescombe Yellow"? I'd like to see it in an open state. Some 7 years ago I found an old yellow tulip in a garden of a local gardner and introduced it in my collection as "Inglescombe Yellow". But now I had a look at a photo of "Golden Harvest" and got confused.
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Now I just read what Jim McKenny wrote about Lois XIV, in Connoisseur Collection,
so we'll wait what he says about the pictures.
First let me say that I am very grateful for the posting of these images. Luit and Zhirair are really whetting my appetite for wonderful tulips. The Breeder tulips have long been among my favorites, and I shed a tear years ago when they were merged in the commercial lists with the single late tulips. There is in some of these tulips a richness of color which has to be seen to be appreciated. It is hugely exciting to see that some at least of these wonderful old varieties still survive: it's as if a long lost friend has come back into my life.
I pulled my old slide of Tulipa 'Louis XIV' and what I see is somewhat similar to the image Luit posted and very different from the two which Zhirair posted. My slide (from the season 1979) shows a flower which is basically a dull grayed violet (I don't think I have described this well - it's a difficult color to describe) but with the edges of the petals a mixture of brown and gold. The gold is more apparent on the inside of the petals.
Keep in mind that during tulip season here in Maryland daytime temperatures of 30 degrees C are not unknown, and as a result our colors are often less intense and rich.
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Wonderful pictures Luit :o
I didn't realize Wim van Est had his own Tulip ;D so he didn't just become famous because of his watch ???
Thanks again for showing Luit.
Luc (from "B"....) ;)
Yes Luc, it's another way of not forgetting this great man, however we can see him
almost every year again lying in the ravine in "Le Tour" .
And he was not from B. ;D ;D :P
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I know a lot of Forumists enjoy cycling, whether on their own bikes or watching the major events on TV ( I am "busy" folllowing the Giro on TV at the moment!!).... can anyone tell me; are there any other tulips, or indeed other flowers, which have been named to honour famous cyclists? Like that tulip, 'Wim van Est' ?
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What I wanted to say relating Breeder tulips. I noticed it many years ago, but, I don’t know why, I decided now to talk about that.
Most of you know that some companies trade with historical bulbs. And what I see - many Breeder tulips are sold as broken ones (virus infected) under Rembrandt tulips. What a shame!!! A good way to fool naïve people. They even didn’t warn their customers that those tulips are virus infected and should be planted far away from normal healthy bulbs. Someone can buy such a tulip and kill all his collection. Their slogan is preserving old varieties and spreading them over the world. But I am in a serious doubt about that. It is just a good way to make money. As it turns out, Hortus Bulborum doesn’t trash the infected tulips, it just sends them to their wholesale client companies, which on their turn, sell them with quite high prices to gardeners. As you may notice most of healthy cultivars offered by Old House Gardens are mainly from other sources, not form the Hortus. I think Hortus this way gets rid of his infected tulips and make money at the same time.
Luit, just showed the pic of the variety “Lord Stanly”. That’s the way this variety and many others are sold in OLD HOUSE GARDENS.
http://oldhousegardens.com/bulb.asp?Cat=TU&page=4
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The trade in virus-infected plants of any species, Galanthus, Trillium , Tulip or whatever, does concern me greatly. As does the non-commercial spread of such plants. I do realise that many people regard these as "benign" viruses, but I am not convinced. I do see that the Old House Garden sit does have a caveat on this page: http://www.oldhousegardens.com/hortus.asp where it says " Much as great wines and cheeses are shaped by micro-organisms, the exquisite patterning of broken tulips is caused by a benign virus that causes the colors to break or separate without harming the bulb. It’s spread by aphids and other sucking insects, so plant these tulips away from other tulips and especially lilies."
But the warning is not very obvious and you have to go looking for it.
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Maggi,
They know that somebody like us can blame them, that is why they placed this phrase an a 'hidden' page to have an answer in their pocket in such cases. They wouldn't like the warning to be very obvious as they can loose thier clients for such striped tulips.
At the same time I would like to say that true Rembrandt tulips as "Absalon", 'Insulinde" and others are not virus infected.
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What I wanted to say relating Breeder tulips. I noticed it many years ago, but, I don’t know why, I decided now to talk about that.
Most of you know that some companies trade with historical bulbs. And what I see - many Breeder tulips are sold as broken ones (virus infected) under Rembrandt tulips. What a shame!!!
Zhirair has raised several questions which I would like to address.
These issues have to do with the relationship between Breeder Tulips and the various broken tulips (primarily tulips with color patterns caused by virus infection).
What are Breeder tulips? To answer this, one has to understand what the categories of tulips in general mean. The classification of tulips is what is known as an artificial or unnatural classification (in contrast to the natural classifications used in botany). In natural classifications, the basic assumption is that all the elements in a given group share a common ancestry, and share it more closely with each other than they do with elements in other groups.
Artificial or unnatural classifications make no such assumption about relationship. Instead, the criteria for inclusion in a given artificial category are criteria which do not necessarily depend on common ancestry. For horticultural purposes, such categories are typically defined by criteria such as gross flower shape and bloom time. The placement of a given cultivar in these artificial categories can change with time as the definition of the category changes. For instance, Tulipa Prnicess Irene began commercial life as a Single Early Tulip, but is now placed with the Triumph Tulips.
The other important thing to remember about these artificial categories is that the elements of a given category do not necessarily breed true: if you cross a Parrot Tulip with a Parrot Tulip, the progeny will not likely be Parrot Tulips. A tulip becomes a Parrot Tulip only when it begins to show the characteristics of Parrot Tulips. Earlier in its existence, the very same plants might have fitted better into some other artificial horticultural category (as in fact most historically have – the parrot look occurs well into the life of a cultivar if at all).
Now let’s go back an look at Breeder Tulips. Breeder Tulips were also an artificial category: they did not necessarily share a common ancestry, and crosses of Breeder x Breeder do not necessarily yield Breeder progeny. Tulip fanciers came to associate certain characteristics of flower shape and color with the Breeder concept; any tulip of whatever ancestry or source went into this category if it fit the criteria.
But there is also this: in the English speaking world, the term Breeder indicated that these were literally the tulips from which one raised via seed new varieties of tulips. The progeny of the Breeders were themselves categorized according to their colors and shapes: if they did not fit the Breeder criteria, they went into another category.
The little book Tulips by Rev. Joseph Jacob, published around 1912, gives this definition of Breeder: “Most garden tulips begin life as self-coloured flowers. After a time the colouring matter gets broken up into stripes and blotches. Before this change takes place a flower is known as a Breeder or Mother tulip. Darwin tulips are Breeders.”
During the last half of the twentieth century, the term Breeder came to be applied to a group of old cultivars of unusual and distinguished colors, and the old sense given by Jacobs no longer had significance (primarily because by this time the true nature of broken tulips, i.e. an understanding of the virus which causes the color pattern, was understood and growers by and large eschewed these virus infected tulips).
Zhirair, perhaps you do not know about the rather complicated and sometimes confusing naming conventions used in the English speaking world to this day to name and categorize the broken tulips. Here is what makes it confusing: the same clone can have several names depending on the degree of virus infection. The basic uninfected form will have one name, a mildly infected flower will have another name, and a flower whose color pattern fits certain criteria will have yet another name. All of these different names are being used for what are really one clone, i.e. pieces of one original plant.
But as tulip growers we are already familiar with this peculiar practice: after all, all of those double early tulips which originated as sports of ‘Murillo’ form one big variable clone: they are all pieces of one original seedling.
Before addressing the ethics of selling and growing virus infected tulips, I would like to hear what others (in addition to Maggi) have to say about this. But I can’t resist making one observation: although it is possible that there will be purchasers of these bulbs who do not understand what they are buying, I’m inclined to doubt that this will happen too often: have you seen the prices asked for those tulips? One would have to be very free with their money to buy these without wondering why one bulb costs as much as dozens of bulbs of normal tulips.
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I would like to hear what others have to say about this.
I have nothing to add to this debate but thank you for this very clear summary Jim. Continue please.
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I would like to hear what others have to say about this.
I think that I will not take part in this discussion, as I don't know much about these things.
But I know that there is a difference between Dutch and English Breeder tulips.
It would take me days of looking about these matters in the Library of KAVB.
By the way, I have seen, that some cultivars are in the Hortus cultivated to sell, but there were only healthy varieties as far as I could see.
But there are (less serious) growers who grow some of these varieties and maybe these are coming into trade too, because there is a demand at the moment.
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I know a lot of Forumists enjoy cycling, whether on their own bikes or watching the major events on TV ( I am "busy" folllowing the Giro on TV at the moment!!).... can anyone tell me; are there any other tulips, or indeed other flowers, which have been named to honour famous cyclists? Like that tulip, 'Wim van Est' ?
Maggi, I know at the moment only one other cyclist with a tulip name:
Michael Boogerd.
We had three women skating World champions with tulip names
Yvonne van Gennip
Atje Keulen-Deelstra
Stien Baas-Kaiser
Two football player:
Johan Cruijff, who does not know him?
Ruud Gullit very well known in G.B.
I know of George Best there is a Rosa called after him.
Most of the Forumist will have heard of Crocus Ard Schenk,
a famous Dutch skater too.
And we have ofcourse
Alfred Heineken, a yellow tulip with a white edge...
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..... and an Auricula 'Kevin Keegan'
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Jim,
thanks a lot for your detail describtions and points. Would you believe or not, if I say that during my 20 year growing experience I have been studying tulips everyday for at least 5 hours a day and this continues until now. I even know tulip register by heart. It is like a drug for me and I keep learning and learning. So what you wrote is familliar to me and I know about how breeders were used, about roses, bibliomens, bizars ets. The thing is that time was changed and it is proved that all this relates with virus. I just thunk that OLD HOUSE GARDENS just make money out of the garbage from Hortus Bulborum and fool naive people under their polite mask. It is just rediculous to pay such amount of money for infected tulips. Ordinary tulips sold in the market, look much more better when catch virus. Just ysterday I had a look at them in my neighbour's garden and should say that they had more beautiful pattenrs. So people who enjoy them just can by ordinary tulips and infect them artificially. But there is no very much need to do it as they can by true Rembrandt tulips, which are virus-free and also avalable in trade by some companies, or modern striped varieties from different groups, though in difference from Rembrandt tulips their stripes have a symmetry.
And finally controdiction:
They say that their goal is to preserve old cultivars and spread them among gardeners. So I don't understand how they preserve them as they sell an infection, which can damage the other healthy tulip cultivars and bulbs grown by these people. They just do the opposite. Just a good way to make profit out of the garbage.
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And I want to make some comments about colour-breaking virus, as it is my profile and I have been studying it for over 15 years, making many experiments and seeing how each variety acts and reacts, when infected.
I grow around 200 tulip cultivars and few bulbs of each new cultivar, which appears in my collection sooner or later is artificially infected with virus for studies. I observe the infected samples every day to see how they develop and change and what kind of symptoms they show.
In some literature it is stated that color-breaking virus doesn’t harm the bulb and only causes color-break. What I see – it is not that true. There are some cultivars, which when infected, grow happily for decades without showing any symptoms of degradation. But there are many, that after few years of catching virus (for example, Triumph “Lustige Witve”) gradually degradate, develop shorter stems, smaller flowers, narrower petals and smaller bulbs. They never produce tip-sized bulbs, when infected. Some cultivars, as DHT “Forgotten Dreams” and many Kaufmanniana cultivars are immune to virus and don’t catch infection, even when artificially infected.
I prepared a very detailed article relating virus, based on my growing experience and tests and placed it in my website to help people grow healthy tulips. I am going to place lots of useful information, relating tulips and make it available for everybody in the near future. Now, for example, I am preparing a very detailed descriptions with all nuances of the tulips, grown in my collection. I notice some mistakes in official descriptions. I hope that this winter the English version also will be ready. Some people even get surprised, that I place this information for free. But that is my aim, and thus I want the gardeners to be well informed about tulip culture, grow healthy and beautiful plants and enjoy them.
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during my 20 year growing experience I have been studying tulips everyday for at least 5 hours a day and this continues until now. I even know tulip register by heart. It is like a drug for me and I keep learning and learning.
Zhirair, your enthusiasm for and knowledge about tulips is obvious. That long post from me about Breeder tulips was not written for you but rather to give others who might be reading these posts (but who are not tulip enthusiasts) some background information. I’m sure you have things to teach me about tulips, and that is why I want to keep this thread going and to encourage your participation.
In an earlier post you mentioned that Tulipa 'Insulinde' is not virus infected. I grow this tulip – it’s still in bloom today in fact. It definitely looks like a virus infected tulip to me. I have no way of proving that, but its overall appearance agrees with what I know about virus infected tulips. The flower itself, beautiful as it is in its strange way, has the deformities I associate with virused tulips.
This makes me wonder: are we talking about the same plant? I’ve attached an image of one bloom for you to see what I grow. What do you think?
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true Rembrandt tulips, which are virus-free and also available in trade by some companies, or modern striped varieties from different groups, though in difference from Rembrandt tulips their stripes have a symmetry.
Zhirair, something you have been saying is confusing me. You talk about “true Rembrandt tulips”. What are these? I think they might be what I would call "false broken tulips". ;) :)
When I was a young man, back in the days when virus infected tulips were still in general commerce, the term Rembrandt tulip was used to describe either broken tulips in general or those broken tulips which did not fit the traditional categories (bizarre, bybloemen and so on). In fact, the term Rembrandt tulip was often used for modern tulips with a striped color pattern which were not virus infected and were not true virus infected (broken) tulips.
Can you name some cultivars of these “true Rembrandt tulips”?
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Dear Jim,
I will help you to distinguish virus-infected tulips among true Rembrandt tulips, which are virus-free and are even listed in last edition of tulip register. It is not so difficult. One should only have a little experience. Just give me one day to prepare a photo for you to be more clear with descriptions.
I wrote about identifying virus among rembrant tulips in my article about virus, which is in the website, but, unfortunately, it is in Russian so far.
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Jim,
good question!
During tulipmania period when it was discovered that those stripes were caused by a virus, scientists started to revise all the tulips in Rembrandt group and left only the ones, which were genetically striped and virus free. The others were just trashed. True Rembrandt tulips differ from modern striped varieties the way that their patterns don’t have symmetry. Unlike True Rembrandt tulips, modern striped varieties have symmetry in their striped patterns.
To name some true Rambrandt tulips:
‘Absalon’, ‘Gala Beauty’, ‘Insulinda’, ‘Тhe Lizard’.
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To name some true Rambrandt tulips:
‘Absalon’, ‘Gala Beauty’, ‘Insulinda’, ‘Тhe Lizard’.
Zhirair, this is fascinating. In the past I've grown 'Absalon' and I think 'The Lizard'; I currently grow 'Insulinde/Insulinda' and a more recent acquisition of 'Absalon'. I don't know 'Gala Beauty'.
'Absalon' is a very old cultivar, isn't it? Some sources make it hundreds of years old. The plants I had about twenty-five years ago proved to be very unstable: for a year or two they grew very vigorously and then burned out. I have photos of this (from the 1981 season) which I would like to show you, but I don't have a slide scanner. As with my current stocks of 'Insulinde'/'Insulinda', it gave every impression of being virus infected.
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Zhirair, let me try to explain why some people are willing to pay outrageous prices for diseased tulips.
The short answer is that there appears to be no substitute for the real thing. What are currently sold as “Rembrandt tulips” here in the US are at best crude imitations of the fine old broken tulips and do not remotely approach their rare, sophisticated beauty; particularly is this true of the best of the bizarre tulips which are my personal favorites. The modern Rembrandt tulips I have seen are as plastic child’s toys compared to the aged Morocco leather of the old bizarre tulips.
To be sure, the growing of virus infected tulips is a guilty pleasure: most of us who grow them know better and should probably not grow them. But they are like a drug: once you have succumbed to their peculiar charms, you are hooked for life. These are tulips to be admired individually in the hand, in the cozy, warm comfort of familiar domestic surroundings, as if one were living in a Vermeer painting. Perhaps the glass you hold in your other hand will contain a libation of similar muted, dark hues, layered character and ancient history. Savor each slowly, as their quality deserves. You will look at other tulips as the worldly man looks at the country bumpkin, and perhaps make comments about the rude good health of these everyday tulips. I’m not saying this is right or admirable, I’m just saying that this is what often happens.
I gladly gave my innocence to these tulips when I was a teenager, and I’ve never regretted it.
I’ve learned to live with the guilt.
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To name some true Rambrandt tulips:
‘Absalon’, ‘Gala Beauty’, ‘Insulinda’, ‘Тhe Lizard’.
Zhirair, I hope you are not getting impatient with all of these questions. But it seems that in some ways your tradition is different than mine, and so I’m not always sure what to make of what you say.
For instance, you gave examples of Rembrandt Tulip cultivars. Your examples only confused me more. Why? Because in my tradition, Rembrandt Tulips are broken Darwin Tulips. Yet some of the cultivars you give as examples of Rembrandt Tulips are much older than the Darwin Tulip group. How can that be? ??? :o
[For those of you who are not tulip enthusiasts, what came to be known as Darwin Tulips arose in the late nineteenth century but seem to have been comparatively little known until the early twentieth century].
Is this seeming inconsistency due to some recent redefinition of the term “Rembrandt Tulip”? Is it just another example of the flexibility of the group concepts in tulips?
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All this learned discussion is way beyond me and the only thing I've THOROUGHLY learned, is that I should feel very bad about liking any of these tulips. In fact I don't grow any at all but admit (guiltily) to liking Insulinde on the Oldhousegardens website. BOYSENBERRY ICE CREAM!!!
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With best regards, Zhirair
I am jus getting prepared to answer Jim’s questions, but the connection seems to be slowing down very rapidly. So first I think I should place the pictures and then give explanations for them.
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I will try to answer Jim’s questions by order;
Rembrandt Tulips
Jim I understand what you mean. During tulip mania period the name Rembrandt was applied to the striped varieties of Darwins, as they were also other groups of striped tulips as Bibliomen, Bizrars, etc. But when it was discovered that those stripes mainly were caused by a virus, scientists started to revise all the tulips from that divisions and selected only the ones which were striped, but genetically healthy. As the amount of those tulips shortened seriously, it was decided to merge all striped tulips in one division called Rembrandt and now includes all striped, but virus-free Darwins, Cottages and Breeders. Though being free from virus, these tulips lost their popularity, as it was difficult for the gardeners to distinguish between healthy and infected plants. In current tulip register Rembrandt tulips are division 9 and only 5 varieties, including ‘Insulinde and “Gala Beauty” (syn. ‘Columbus’, ‘French Crown”’) were left. There are around 10-15 such tulips, free from virus in existence, as, for example, “Black Boy’ (from old Bizarre group), but they were dismissed from the register due to low demand. Earlier Rembrandt division included striped sports “Union Jack” and “Cordell Hall” from Darwin tulip “Bartigon”, but as their stripes had a symmetry, it was later decided to transfer then into Darwin tulip group, which is now merged with Single Late division. In addition, I want to say that true Rembrandt tulips (from the modern point of view) don’t have their breeder forms. They are just varieties, not broken virused tulips from Breeders, Darwins and Cottages.
About the beauty of striped tulips;
Indeed, they look very colorful and many people admire them very much. I understand. But what I want to say. There are true Rembrandt virus-free tulips sold by specialized companies and gardeners can acquire such varieties and grow in their garden with normal tulips. Those, who just want to grow virused ones (they are such people), they just must forget about growing other tulips, as well as crocuses, bulbous irises, narcissus and other bulbs, as this type of virus infects these generas too. And there is no need to pay high prices for virused tulips, offered by specialized companies; as ordinary varieties, sold in garden centers, get the same beautiful patterns when infected. So people can by them and infect artificially.
Yesterday on the way home I just visited a small garden of an unknown to me person and photographed his virused tulips. Just look at the way they look. It is SLG tulip “Red Lory”, infected with virus. I think broken tulip “Lord Stanly” sold by OGH doesn’t look better than this one.
About identifying virus on Rembrandt tulips;
Before buying the cultivar, it is necessary to have its detailed description and characteristics; for example, how many colours (combination) are typical for that variety 2 or 3. In case of catching virus other alien colour, not characteristic for the variety appears on the flower together with its own colours.
But I will say a more reliable method for identifying virus. All the varieties when catch colour- breaking virus show the symptoms of mosaic in their leaves at the same time (darker or lighter green irregular stripes in the normal green background of the leaf - not to be confused with leaf veins). The mosaic is especially easily observed on the younger leaves. The stripes are more obvious when the plants are observed not under the sunlight. The observation is especially recommended to be done during the begging of growth ,as on the mature leaves the mosaic is not very easily observed and can be confused with leaf veins, which become more prominent at that time). This method allows me to destroy virused plants in the beginning of grown, before appearing of aphids. So I don’t wait for my tulips to bloom in order to trash infected samples. But this is in case of tulip breaking virus (TBV).
There is another wildly spread tulip virus, called Tulip Mild Mottle Mosaic Virus (T MMMV), which, affects red-coloured and dark colored varieties. The stripes on the flowers in this case have no so much contrast, as with TBV. Plants, affected with this virus, don’t show mosaic symptoms on their leaves, and so I wait for the flowers to bloom in order to destroy the plants. for those who would like to know more about this type of virus I can give further explanations.
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Boeyd and Jim
This has been, and still is, a very interesting and educational discussion for an amateur tulip grower. I thank You both for this input and hope You continue. More people than Yourself is following this discussion with great interest.
Kind regards
Joakim
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I agree with Joakim - it is a very interesting discussion even if I am not a tulipgrower - anymore.
Some years ago I ordered Tulipa acuminata but got another striped tulip - during flowering time I lifted to destroy them, but as I had to regonize it was to late - Iris planifolia and some Crocus had signs of virus. So I dammed all tulips (and strong narcissushybrids) of the garden because I was told plants can be virusinfected without showing any sign of it - worse of all: many virus can be hidden in other types of plants.
On the other hand I am sure many bulbs are destroyed because suspected in having virus - I nearly destroyed one Onco, but after a treatment with a fungicid I finally found out it had not. ::)
Hope this was not to Off Topic. Thanks for this good discussion.
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There are around 10-15 such tulips, free from virus in existence, as, for example, “Black Boy’ (from old Bizarre group), but they were dismissed from the register due to low demand.
Zhirair, I got this far into your responds and had to stop and respond.
Tulipa 'Black Boy' still exists? It's my ALL TIME FAVORITE bizarre tulip. Again, I grew this in the past and have old slide images of it.
It's wonderful to think that I might be able to grow it again.
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And there is no need to pay high prices for virused tulips, offered by specialized companies; as ordinary varieties, sold in garden centers, get the same beautiful patterns when infected. So people can by them and infect artificially.
Yesterday on the way home I just visited a small garden of an unknown to me person and photographed his virused tulips. Just look at the way they look. It is SLG tulip “Red Lory”, infected with virus. I think broken tulip “Lord Stanly” sold by OGH doesn’t look better than this one.
Zhirair, on several occasions in my garden broken tulips have appeared spontaneously. Sometimes they are very beautiful. However, these spontaneous tulips in my experience do not survive long: I have never been able to keep one going from year to year and build up stock. It as if the sudden virus infection overwhelms the plant and it dies.
Also, did you mean to include a photo of the virus infected tulips in the garden you passed the other day?
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Jim
Pleased to hear that you grew tulip "Black Boy". Earlier was often offered in sale by Russian tulip growers and collectors. Now it only exists in the collections of some botanical gardens in CIS countries.
Jim, it's not surprising that you can't bulid up a stock of your broken tulips. It is said by some sources that the virus doesn't harm the bulb, but only causes color break. From my experience I can say (and it is not only my opinion) that it does seriously harm the bulb and if you grow infected tulips they degradate from year to year and die one day.
Jim, and I forgot to mention about the other quite interesting and important way to identify virus on true Rembrandt tulips. It is very recommended to by at least 7 to 10 plants of a desired variety for comparisons. True brocken tulips (virus free) - all the samples within a one variety look almost similar having the same patterns and color combinations (and the differences between samples among the same variety are not very serious). And if you increase the stock vegetatively the generation repeats the same patterns and picture in its color. Shotrly speaking - you get the same picture.
But if you have a look at a group of broken tulips (virus infected) of one variety. It'll be difficult to find even 2 plants having the same patterns in color. They all look different. When you multiply them vegetatively, you get quite different colour patterns. Just I posted above virused samples of tulip "Red Lory". Have a look, all three samples look different.
I didn't catch what you meant by saying - (Also, did you mean to include a photo of the virus infected tulips in the garden you passed the other day? )
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Jim I think the last pics on page 4 is of the neighbours infected tulip.
Boyed please correct me if I am wrong
Kind regards
Joakim
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Jim I think the last pics on page 4 is of the neighbours infected tulip.
Thanks, Joakim. Now things make more sense. :)
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Joakim,
Yes, you're right.
What else I wanted to show. I grow an interesting tulip bred in Belarus during 70s. It is called "Pesniary" ("Singers"). It starts flowering yellow with very narrow red egde (shown in TULIPA thread, but during flowering period the blooms turn yellow striped red, resembling a Rembrandt tulip. Here is a pic
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Zhirair, I did follow the discussion between you and Jim and talked to several people
about this matter and this resulted in the following:
The Chairman of the Tulip Committee Royal General Bulb-Growers Association wrote the following to me:
Most of the Rembrandt tulips have virus, at least all the older ones. Therefore it is in Holland not allowed to cultivate them free.
Nowadays it is only allowed to use healthy flamed tulips as Rembrandt Tulips!
These are Cultivars like Helmar, Princess Irene, Washington, Ida, Rem’s Favourite, etc.
I will try to get a list of these new Cultivars from the KAVB for you.
The old Rembrandt Group was removed from the Classified List since 1981, I believe.
It would be probably very good for your studies and future plans with publishing on your website, if you could come to Holland some Spring and see yourself how the practice works here and talk to gardeners and possibly research workers on this matter.
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Zhirair, there is one other thing I would like to tell you, but probably you do know this already.
I f you do have or find some new tulips from Russia or yourself, they should be registered at the KAVB in Holland. That is the only place in the world where this can be done. They are always interested being up to date in this matter.
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Luit,
Thanks a lot for your information. In addition, I would like to add some things to what you said.
Rembrandt tulip division are still in the last edition of register, which lists only 5 tulip varieties, that are underlined. They keep saying since 1981 that this devision is going to be removed and new division called Multiflowering Tulips will apear instead. But still changes weren't made.
Russian scientists say that the tulips from Rembrandt division, which are listed in the register are free from virus. I am not very sure because I haven't grown these varieties, but would like to try. Who knows, maybe they cought virus in Holland during mass cultivation. Interesting topic to go deeper and investigate. Some Rembrandt tulips are still avalable in Russia by specialized growers. I think I should obtain some and have some studies.
About Russian tulips. There were very talented tulip specialists in former USSR as Z.P. Bochantseva, Z.M. Silina, V.M. Kudriavtseva, Z.I. Luchnik etc, who raised very good tulips of good garden marit (many of them are interspecific crosses with Azian wild tulips for virus resistance). Many of their cultivars were registered in USSR, but no one in Holland, because of Iron Wall. After the collapse of USSR these tulips are in the danger of dissapearing and even some dissapered. There are no organisations now, who specialse in growing local varieties. Many just buy tulips from Hollnd and resell them in local market, thus making more profit. My aim is to collect them, thus preventing them from dissapearing, multiply and share with my collegues and other growers. Frankly speaking, it is a hard job for me, as they are now very hard-to-find. And most white and yellow colored types are virus-infected. In future my plans include sharing them with Hortus (if they would be interested), as it is a safe and reliable place to preserve tulips.
And I would like to ask you to find out more about the definition of Breeder tulips, especially the differences between English and Dutch ones. I am interested if the difference is only in origin or the flower shape as well? I gave a definition of these tulips in my website according to my studies, but I would like to know other opinions as well to add to my knowledge.
By the way, visiting Holland is one of my dreams and I hope one day it'll happen.
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And I would like to ask you to find out more about the definition of Breeder tulips, especially the differences between English and Dutch ones. I am interested if the difference is only in origin or the flower shape as well? I gave a definition of these tulips in my website according to my studies, but I would like to know other opinions as well to add to my knowledge.
Zhirair, for this I have to search the library of KAVB and this would take very much time.
First I have to search for references to people who wrote about this matter and then I have to search these articles and read and compare.
Whenever you might have some references, please tell me.
Because this is a job inside, I will wait until winter, because I have to do many other things outside in the garden etc.
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Because this is a job inside, I will wait until winter, because I have to do many other things outside in the garden etc.
Spoken (or written) like a true gardener, or at least a gardener after my own heart.
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Luit,
I would like to make some comments about the Rembrandt tulips.
The last register I had so far was 1987 edition, which listed only 5 cultivars from Rembrandt dision (N 9). It is stated in the register that all thise 5 cultivars are free from virus.
Recently I got a last 1996 edition of International Register and discovered that a lot of Rembrandt cultivars, including many virused ones (broken Breeder, Darwin and Coittage tulips), which were dismissed from previous editions, were again brought back, due to the fact that they are grown in historical collections. That is why now it is now stated in the last edition that Rembrandt division includes striped cultivars, most of which are virus infected. On a whole, I sow that many dismissed cultivars from different other divisions were re-included in the 1996 edition, because they're grown in Hortus and some other collections.
As to the modern flamed tulips, I think that they lack the beauty of real Rembrandt tulips.
Relating to the registration of Russian tulips.
Indeed, I would like to apply for their registration in KAVB. It is a best way to preserve them. But the thing is that their authors are not alive now. As far as I know I should have a written permission from the authors to register their varieties.
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Zhirair, do you also have the Appendix with the list of Flamed Tulips?
There are all the virus free tulips together on one list.
If you don't have it then I do have a pdf. of the list.
I will ask if it's necessary that you need to have a permission of not living persons
to registrate old tulips.
I cannot imagine that this is true.
The only thing is, when you want to registrate cultivars there are costs of
planting etc. in the KAVB garden.
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Luit,
Yes, I have the Appendix with the list of Flamed Tulips.
I will very appriciate the information about tulip registration, relating author's permission and costs of planting at KAVB garden (I didn't know about that).
Thanks a lot, Luit.
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Zhirair, about the registration of older Russian tulips I can tell you now, that it’s not difficult at all.
You might ask for a registration paper at KAVB and then you fill in all dates of the cultivar.
i.e. height, the colour, which Group etc. Then the name of the breeder and in case the breeder is no more alive you give your name as Registrar and the name of the breeder.
If the breeder is still alive you can give your name as Registrar and ask the breeder for permission that you
want to register his tulip. Then you have to send the paper with photos of the cultivar, (or digital by E-mail).
The Tulip Committee will decide if the cultivar is different from existing cultivars or only the name is different.
If the Committee is not sure, the cultivar has to be planted in the Garden of KAVB, where in the next spring the Committee will judge the cultivar.
I’ll send you by PM the address of the Registration Office and some other details about costs etc.
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Here some photo's of species tulips.
Behind the picture names the year of introduction as far as known.
Tulipa acuminata
Luit - I am curious to know if T. acuminata is available in Holland. The company I work for orders from Ruigrok (spelling?) If I knew of a Dutch source I might be able to convince them to have a some sent to R. for relay with our August order.
Thanks
johnw
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Hi John,
I can see that this year app. 600 m² of T. acuminata was grown.
I think there are only 1 or 2 producers, and I remember having seen some
in my neighbourhood. So you might try to get some. And of Ruigrok there are
several in the area around here.
But mostly such small quantities are just as specialty grown for a few traders,
otherwise a producer has problems to sell them in the trade.
And please ask for bulbs big enough to flower!
(see: Attribution of a Dutch Master ::) ::) )
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Luit,
In the website of Hortus it is stated that
Each year a small collection of a few of the historical tulip types is grown for commercial purposes. This trade collection is made available to a small number of specialized sales outlets and exporters, to special historical gardens in the Netherlands, among them Palace Het Loo, and elsewhere to exclusive garden centers and distributors in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and the United States.
I know their distributors in The Netherlands and US, but about Germany, Denmark, Sweden and Finland I have no idea. Do you have any idea about Hortus repesentavives in these countries?
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Zhirair, I don't know what the meaning of your question is, but I am almost sure
that you will find the greatest assortment of Hort. Bulborum tulips in Europe at Peter Nijssen
in Holland. And it is the shortest line to avoid extra costs.
I found one business in Germany who has maybe between 10 and 20 cvs.
But they ask for one bulb € 5.90 and P.N. asked last year for 3 bulbs € 7.50!
So why would you look in other countries?
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P. C. Nijssen unfortunately only ships within the EU... The Swedish one is Botanicus.nu, although it isn't of much help as they don't do export.
ETA: www.villiniitty.fi appears to be the Finnish distributor.
ETA2: German, EU only: http://www.garden-shopping.de/shop/customer/home.php?cat=229