Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Flowers and Foliage Now => Topic started by: Gail on April 15, 2019, 07:32:49 AM
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The first one here opened yesterday, P. obovata alba
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I have 2 plants of P. tenuilfolia. 1, just coming into flower with leaves up to 3 or 4 mm maximum width, the other with leaves 1 or 2 mm wide. Is this species normally that variable? The latter is from NARGS seedex and has not flowered yet. I have some difficulty flowering the larger species in pots. They get starved I guess in pots I can still lift.
I have some P. obovata "Alba" seedlings but no flowering size yet. It comes as a surprise to get "red" leaves and a white flower.
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Brian,
I remember wondering the same thing about P. tenuifolia. I read that the leaves become more finely divided as the plant matures, and I have found this to be true with my own seedlings. In the first season you wonder if it really is tenuifolia,as the leaves may only be in 2 or 3 parts.
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My first one of the season, Paeonia mlokosewitschii.
Bought from Wisley Plant Centre 7-8 years ago. For most of it's time it grew in my back garden but never had more than one flower and most years none at all- probably didn't get enough light. After not flowering last year I moved into my front garden and it seems to have settled well but I still could do with more flowers! Not an easy one to picture too.
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Paeonia broteri
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Paeonia broteri
Wonderful plant Ashley! Do you think the species is hardy here in Western Germany - 7 b?
+ I add a pic of Paeonia japonica
Gerd
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That's a beauty Gerd 8)
Do you think the species is hardy here in Western Germany - 7 b?
I don't know the hardiness limit but it's fine in my garden (roughly 9a) so should be worth trying, perhaps with a little shelter or covering with leaves.
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Paeonia broteri
Lovely to see your P. boteri Ashley .I nearly lost a young seedling a few weeks back to some sort of infection however after cutting out the diseased part it's currently coming away nicely.
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Thank you for the advice Ashley!
Gerd
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Flowers on Paeonia tenuifolia;
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and the tree peonies are starting - this is The Captain's Concubine;
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but I also love the foliage at this time of year - Madame Gaudichau is really deeply coloured;
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and the Itoh hybrid 'Sequestered Sunshine' worth growing just for the leaves (here with the hybrid tulip Garant which is one of the few that actually increase in number with me, and also has attractive, cream margined leaves)
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but I also love the foliage at this time of year
So do I, though I don't have itoh peonies (except one), but also P.lactifloras show a wide range of colours in their shoots. Some are almost yellow and and some very dark. I have P.lactiflora 'Tie Gan Zi', which is not very vigorous and has not very special flowers (no side buds, and many times flowers look a little messy), but it has the darkest spring foliage which stays dark until almost flowering, so it deserves a place just for the foliage.
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I don't have itoh peonies (except one)
Remind me in the autumn and I may be able to rectify that for you.
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Paeonia cambessedesii
(https://up.picr.de/35651796xd.jpg)
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splendid :P
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Paeonia cambessedesii
Fine plant Ebbie.
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Ebbie, how lovely P.cambessedsii. I think that is one of the peonies which I can't grow here.
Gail, thank you. :)
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Paeonia tenuifolia ssp. lithophila.
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Very vivid red Arnold!
Flowering here P. tenuifolia 'Rosea' from Will McLewin
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Gail:
Thanks, it seems colors are always more vivid in less than bright sunshine.
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Paeonia emodi
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It's Paeonia time
1. Paeonia rockii
2. P. lutea var. ludlowii
3. Paeonia officinalis ex Monte LBaldo
Gerd
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Paeonia mascula var russoi Reverchonii
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47753175032_3e84a21897_o_d.jpg)
Paeonia rockii
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47753176812_2d6a529af1_o_d.jpg)
Paeonia mlokosewitschii
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47753175842_4b92a3ac39_o_d.jpg)
Paeonia cambessedesii
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40838979733_f9eab7e587_o_d.jpg)
Paeonia cambessedesii -a Dwarf form.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40838978783_f7945645d6_o_d.jpg)
Paeonia caucasica
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32861800667_2350014c4b_o_d.jpg)
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Hello Steve ,
you show us a lot of really nice peonies
But sorry to say your P.russoi v.reverchonii is not a correct named plant - this plant should have glabrous carpells
( please look in "A study of the genus Paeonia " from F.C.Stern -page 65 )
So far I can see are the carpells of your plant hairy
There is written under Description :
"Differs from P.russoi by its glabrous carpels ,and leaflets tomentose on the lower surface"
Hans
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Lovely peonies flowers!
So do I, though I don't have itoh peonies (except one), but also P.lactifloras show a wide range of colours in their shoots. Some are almost yellow and and some very dark. I have P.lactiflora 'Tie Gan Zi', which is not very vigorous and has not very special flowers (no side buds, and many times flowers look a little messy), but it has the darkest spring foliage which stays dark until almost flowering, so it deserves a place just for the foliage.
So do I Leena - the foliage in most cases is simply wonderful and helps enjoying the young plants until they start flowering (when grown from seeds).
I bought a first itoh last year, waiting to see how it will perform.
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Hello Hans,
Many thanks for your comments.
I bought this plant about 4 years ago from Aberconwy Nursery. They are very reliable with their plant naming. Here is the label it came with:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32873940547_8ba700a444_o_d.jpg)
Unfortunately I do not have a copy of Stern’s book whilst my total knowledge of Paeonia species could easily be transcribed onto the back of a postage stamp .....with room to spare.
I would be grateful for your help in naming this plant as it is dwarf, very attractive in flower and worthy of being properly named. Below I have included some additional images including a lower leaf which is divided into three groups of three leaflets, an image of the tomentose undersurface of the leaf, a close up image of the flower which shows the hairy carpels and an image showing the hairy carpels as they develop into seed pods. So this plant has a tomentose under leaf but does not have glabrous carpels.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33940488858_590af5b85e_o_d.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32873939507_25dc85e364_o_d.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33940488168_5cc464e2fa_o_d.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32874411037_3d8c63ed15_c_d.jpg)
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Hello Steve ,
I believe that more or less no nursery has a really true P.russoi v.reverchoni ...they are extrem rare in cultivation
Funny to see your label from this Aberconwy Nursery .....so far I remember I had before many years contact to Mrs. Coller .
Maybe she was sure that these plants are P.russoi v. reverchonii ...
I have to confess that I'm a little crazy for peonies ...I have travel all over in Europe to see those plants in the wild
So I was also 2 times on Corsica to search for it ...and I have found such a population with such naked fruits ( sorry but this was in the time before digital cameras ) ...
For me looks your plant like a typical P.russoi - I found it on several places on Corsica
I have see this peonies also on Sicily ,Sardinia ,Zakinthos ,Kephallonia - for me are they not so close related with P.mascula ...but more with P.cambessedesii
I have just looked in my garden - my plant of P.russoi from Corsica ( grown from seeds ) has no hairs on the backsite ...
But I remember me well it was always confusing to observe Paeonia population ...some had hairs ...some others not .
Just for fun I have looked on my P.russoi from Sardinia ( now named as Paeonia morisii ) this plant has hairs on backside
Peonies are really difficult ...and without a location from where they came is it nearly impossibly to say what is it .
Another point is that they hybridize very easy with other related species ....and produce true seeds is a hard work ( you have to pollinate by hand and after pollination you have to protect to avoid other pollinators )
For this reason have also Botanical Gardens often wrong named plants or hybrids ...so the best way is to look in the habitats ...but this is often not easy - you must be on the right time + right place ...Peonies grows mostly not near the roads ...luckily !!!
I hope this helps a bit
Hans
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I bought this plant as a small seedling labelled as Paonia anomala from Slack Top nursery around 2006. In the years it has grown and flowered I have posted it here regularly and no-one has ever been sure if it is P. anomala or P. veitchii although the majority seem to have plumped for veitchii hence my current label. So, here it is again with a new set of pictures in the hope that someone may be able to say what it is for certain and cure this anomaly! I don't think (but I might be wrong) that Gail has had a go and there may be other 'new bloods'.
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Have you tried this (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=2ahUKEwiEv52st6riAhWOSxUIHWZ3Cs8QFjACegQIBBAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflora.huh.harvard.edu%2Fchina%2Fnovon%2Fmobt-91-01-87.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2jClhF4PqsByVsUTwKVpkj) David? (downloadable pdf)
Your foliage looks very like what I have as anomala from seed wild-collected in/near Irkutsk.
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Ashley very kindly provided a link in his post to a paper by Hong and Pan entitled 'A Taxonomic Revision of the Paeonia anomala Complex (Paeoniaeae) I am very much a non-Scientist and find every such Paper very hard to follow. But I wonder if the original question I asked is perhaps answered by the extract below?
""..........Paeonia anomala subsp. veitchii usually possesses 2 to 4 blooming flowers in addition to up to 2 underdeveloped flower buds. Very rarely only the terminal flower blooms in addition to up to 3 flower buds. Paeonia anomala subsp. anomala possesses only a single terminal blooming flower, without or infrequently with 1 to 3 underdeveloped flower buds........""
Or have I made yet another mistake?
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David, I sent you a PM.
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should be Paeonia emodii ???
Greetings
Bernd
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I'm afraid that I tend to be a fence-sitter and am reluctant to try and pin a name on something from cultivated plants. My own plant came from seed from the AGS exchange that was labelled P. wittmanniana which it clearly isn't;
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Just to add to the confusion, this paper from the American Journal of Botany which looks at DNA evidence, suggests that P. anomala is a wild hybrid that originated from a cross between P. veitchii and P. lactiflora...
https://bsapubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.3732/ajb.94.3.400
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David, I sent you a PM.
Sorry I didn't respond earlier Ashley and thanks for your PM. We spent the last couple of days at Wisley and have just got back home.
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Gail, very interesting paper.
P.anomala and P.veitchii seem to be very difficult to tell apart, and I think there are also a lot of hybrids of those two.
I can't say for sure if my own plants which are grown from garden collected seeds are true, many seem to be in between those two.
I have P.anomala which is second generation from wild collected seeds and it does have only one flower per stem, it is very tall and vigorous plant just starting to flower. I have P.veitchii seedlings grown from wild collected seeds, but they haven't flowered yet, and I'm looking forward to see how they are when they mature. My garden-origin P.veitchii plants are very nice not so tall plants, some have 2-3 flowers per stem, but some only 1-2, but I can't say for sure if they are true or hybrids.
P.obovata has now flowered, it was only a short time this year, because the weather was over 25C.
First time flowered also a plant I had grown from seeds of P.japonica (from botanical garden), but I don't know if it is true and how if differs from P.obovata var alba?? It is a very nice plant though.
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Your japonica looks very like the form sold by Paul Christian;
https://www.rareplants.co.uk/product/paeonia-japonica/ (https://www.rareplants.co.uk/product/paeonia-japonica/)
There were some observations on this group in a recent HPS Peony Group newsletter;
http://www.hardy-plant.org.uk/docs/specialists/Peony-nl-Oct-15.pdf. (http://www.hardy-plant.org.uk/docs/specialists/Peony-nl-Oct-15.pdf.)
Currently just going over in my garden is the hybrid 'Avant Garde' - a Lemoine Hybrid from 1907 resulting from a cross between a P. lactiflora and P. wittmanniana.
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'Avant Garde' is very substancial looking, a fine plant. :)
Gail, my P.japonica looks just like Paul Christians same. :)
It was very interesting to read the newsletter, thank you! It is so difficult to identify species and subspecies, especially if the plants are grown from seeds. On the other hand I would like to have true species but on the other hand getting a good garden plant (from seeds) is maybe even more important.
First time is flowering this plant, it is grown from seed ex seeds as P.caucasica.
In the second picture there are two older plants grown from seeds. The one in the foreground is grown as P.xchamaelon (these have white flowers with pinkish flares, but I have their sister seedlings with red flowers), and the one in the background with blueish leaves is grown as P.wittmanniana. It has pale yellow flowers and it flowers a bit earlier then my mlokos. They may all be some P.daurica hybrids, I don't know, but very nice garden plants.
In the third picture is now flowering P.x hybrida, which is a natural hybrid between P.tenuifolia and P.anomala. It is a tlla plant, over one meter.
The fourth is P. x smouthii, very similar to P.x hybrida.
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An American friend, Patricia Becker - who introduced a new snowdrop in a recent issue of IRG , asks about this paeony....
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" Would love your help: I grow a mysterious, herbaceous peony here. Can’t recall when or from where it was purchased. Never seen another.
Here are the particulars:
Semi-double flowers start off a beautiful shade of red,
fading to pink as the flowers age.
Stems are up to 5/8” thick and up to 5’ long.
If uncontained the stems snake around in ess curves.
Any ideas for me?
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Interesting mystery plant - don't know it but some peregrina blood...
Here I have P. peregrina
[attach=1]
and an Itoh hybrid 'Sonoma Velvet Ruby'
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I agree with Gail that it has P.peregrina blood in it. There are tens of hybrids which have P.peregrina in the parentage, so it is really difficult to say which one it is. Many of them have flowers just like in the picture, but may have small differences in size, flowering time or colour.
If I wanted to know for sure what it is, I would buy a similar named peony and grow them side by side and compare them then. For instance 'Scarlett O'Hara' would be one candidate (though curved stems don't match, 'Scarlett O'Hara' has very strong stems).
There are so many peonies that finding a name to an unnamed one is very difficult if not impossible. I have one old double white lactiflora, which I have been trying to find out what it is, and one time I thought I got it. I planted the named one beside my unknown but in the end they were not the same. Even though the flowers and flowering time were similar, the spring shoots were different colour, in the other one they were green and in the other red!
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Grown from seed Paeonia arietina. Fewer flowers this year than has been normal.
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This is one that has been in the garden for around three years but has never flowered until this year. The label has long gone but I think it is possible it was from seed Hans Joschko kindly sent me some years ago now. Could anyone help me with a name please?
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Other plants are included of course, but there are many wonderful paeony photos in this AGS diary entry by photographer Jon Evans from a visit to the garden of Robin and Sue White ....
https://www.alpinegardensociety.net/plants/may-at-blackthorn-nursery/?fbclid=IwAR2Wis84QkaNmOKVEKpgGg9RM3iIgJE9eY_QLY3P7eC6tTQtbqW9h421hu0 (https://www.alpinegardensociety.net/plants/may-at-blackthorn-nursery/?fbclid=IwAR2Wis84QkaNmOKVEKpgGg9RM3iIgJE9eY_QLY3P7eC6tTQtbqW9h421hu0)
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Paeonia 'Moonrise' a Saunders hybrid from 1949 with some P. peregrina blood which gives it the earlier flowering and good robust foliage.
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Thank you Maggi for the link, there are really nice pictures of peonies there.
I don't know David's peony, can it be some kind of P.mascula?
My big P.anomala has been flowering last week. It is one meter tall and more than one meter wide.
Also some P.daurica peonies are flowering, here are two first time bloomers grown from seed ex seeds 'Aurelia'. The other seedling has red/pink flowers and the other pale cream with red veins.
The last peony is an unknown hybrid, with possibly some daurica blood in it. I have gotten it from a friend who had bought it from Estonia. It seems to be sterile, at least I have never gotten any viable seeds from it. It has bigger and more open flowers than most of my other P.dauricas.
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The peonies are flowering - and all are beautiful!
Leena - your P. japonica is indeed P. japonica.
I agree with what you say, most important is to get a good garden plant. I understand that many species can cross pollinate anyway.
My peonies grown from seeds are too young to flower yet but I enjoyed the first flower of P. officinalis of a small division I got from a friend :)
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I understand that many species can cross pollinate anyway.
Yes, sometimes I don't know how I should call some of my seed grown peonies, many can be some kind of hybrids.
I have grown seedlings from my big P.anomala, and the first are flowering now, and it seems that they or at least some of them have had bee bring pollen from my P.veitchii (if it is true or not, I don't know), because the flower shape is similar to it more than to the mother P.anomala. And when I send seeds to the seed ex, the plants grown from them can also be hybrids.. or not.
Anyway, Gabriel, your P.officinalis is very nice, with extra petals! :)
The first is P.mollis which flowered already in the third week of May.
Second picture is P.officinalis ssp microcarpa flowering now.
Third is my P.veitchii in the end of flowering now, it starts pale pink and finishes almost white.
All these are low growing plants, height less than 50cm.
The last picture is 'Early Scout', a bit taller, maybe 60-70cm, and not very vigorous, but flowers are bright colour.
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Your P. veitchii looks very unusual, Leena. All I´ve seen till now had slightly nodding pink flowers. Maybe an interesting hybrid?
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Yes, I think you are right and it may be a hybrid (but with what??), but it produces a lot of seeds so it is fertile (unlike Windflower-hybrids). It's flowers open more flat than P.anomala, and maybe true P.veitchii, so that is why I suspect it might be a hybrid.
It's flowers are nodding, but it grows in a slope and the picture was taken from down, so they don't look so nodding in the picture.
I have different shade in pinks in P.veitchii, some fade more than others. I also have seedlings which are supposed to be white from the beginning, I will see about that when they flower in a year or two.
P.veitchii is one of my favourites, because it is so healthy (P.officinalis and peregrina-types don't like my soil so much and get root diseases easily), and so some years ago I ordered seeds of it from Pilous. They were wild collected in three different locations, and also the seeds at that time looked different in size but not in shape or colour. So I'm looking forward to seeing if the plants are also different, but they don't flower yet this year.
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Peony season is finally starting here in Nova Scotia. I delayed too long, to capture Paeonia daurica subsp. mlokosewitschii in bloom, but the next up is a first bloom seed grown plant of Paeonia rockii. I had hoped for blooms like those on Gerd's or Steve Garvie's plants.... but then this happened
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I bought this plant as a seedling, three years ago, at the local rare plant sale. They were initially grown by Kristl Walek, and had been handed to another grower when she returned to Ontario. Although it isn't the classic white with wine-black markings, I am pretty happy with the result. At first bloom, it is carrying eight flowers.
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While weeding the path adjacent to the raised bed in which Paeonia kesrouanensis grows I found a little seedling! Possibly from the previous year's seeding. Hopefully it will survive being replanted in a garden bed in another part of the garden,
cheers
fermi
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Couple of peony pictures from May - early June. :)
First one is P.obovata, which always hides it's cup shaped flowers a bit among the foliage.
The next one is P. x chamaeleon (though grown from seeds which produces some almost white plants and one pink one, so I'm not sure how true it is, but a good plant anyway).
The last one I have gotten as P.wittmanniana. It flowers early, earlier than P.mlokosewitchii, has big creamy flowers held above bluish hairy foliage (flowers open more when the flowering is advanced). My favourite. :) It always produces seeds, but of course I'm not sure yet how true they will become, my seedlings from it are only one year old.
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Our original plant of Paeonia
kesrouanensis mascula subsp. russoi (see Hans J's message below) is now in flower, only 3 blooms this year - might need a bit more of a feed
cheers
fermi
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I have seedlings from the 2016/2017 seed exchange.
2754 breeder black seed w. macrophylla
(the next offering was 2755 breeder brown seed w. lactiflora but I didn't receive those)
I am curious about the description. I know of breeder tulips, but not breeder peonies. And why differentiate between black seeds and brown seeds?
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Hi Diane,
I remember those seeds. The seedex was offered them by a paeony breeder who was doing various crosses and open pollinated ones too. Some hybrids produced brown seeds, some black. The breeder could not guarantee what the plants would turn out like, of course. It's quite exciting to grow these on and see what you get. I do hope you will post some photos when they flower.
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Our original plant of Paeonia kesrouanensis is now in flower, only 3 blooms this year - might need a bit more of a feed
cheers
fermi
Hi Fermi ,
sorry to say ...but your plant is not a P.kesrouanensis
Please look on the carpels !!!
P.kesrouanensis has glabrous one ...your plant seems to be a P.russoi
We have discus several times about this point ...please look in older postings
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=14017.msg364072#msg364072 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=14017.msg364072#msg364072)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12230.msg312783#msg312783 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12230.msg312783#msg312783)
Marcus was a really great plantsman ...but in this case he was wrong
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9417.msg254299#msg254299 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9417.msg254299#msg254299)
I have seen on my travel in Turkey 2001 the real P.kesrouanensis ( near the border of Syria )
....and it looks really different
Sorry ...but I have only slides ...it was before digital picture time
Here is a good picture :
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4975.msg146324#msg146324 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4975.msg146324#msg146324)
Here is another information :
http://www.paeon.de/navigation/name_ke.html (http://www.paeon.de/navigation/name_ke.html)
I dont like to correct you ....but in this time it seems better
( before you give any material from this plant to other people )
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=11409.msg314154#msg314154 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=11409.msg314154#msg314154)
All the best
Hans
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Hi Hans,
I guess we now need to re-label this as Paeonia mascula subsp. russoi.
cheers
fermi
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Paeonia 'Coral Charm' which we got from Kaydale Lodge a couple of years ago.
First flowers opened a couple of days apart and the bloom fades to a soft peach/parchment before falling
cheers
fermi
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'Coral Charm' is a beautiful plant :), and if you get 'Coral Sunset', I think it is even more desirable.
I sent some peony seeds to the seed ex, and thought to post pictures of plants the seeds were collected from.
I have grown early hybrid peonies with a name quadruple hybrids (because there are at least four different species mixed in them). Seeds from the mother plants have come to Finland from America more than twenty years ago, and I got seeds from these plants nine years ago. They flower in early part of June here, before lactifloras, and they are healthy and robust plants, with usually big flowers with one or two layers of petals. They are fertile, and most often produce seeds, but last September was very rainy here, and I didn't get as much seeds as usually.
Most of the flowers are different shades of pink or blush, also some are white or cream.
I also sent seeds from a hybrid called 'Pink Vanguard'. It is also a healthy tall plant with big flowers and flowers early in the season. Flowers are semidouble and very pale pink. It has interesting parents: 'Blushing Princess' x 'Salmon Dream'. 'Blushing Princess' is double, so there is a slight possibility that also offspring of PV can be double. The seeds are open pollinated, and close to PV I have growing another interesting hybrid 'Roy Pehrsson's Best Yellow' (though more cream than actual yellow), and both plants flower at the same time, so bees might have gone there too. :) I have lots of seedlings from PV growing from last year, so it is a good germinator, and I'm looking forward what the offspring is like. I didn't sow any of them now, but sent all the seeds to the seed ex.
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They are lovely Leena, and good healthy-looking foliage on them.
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Kaydale Gardens in Tasmania are amazing at any time of year - but this event is just around the corner ....
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They are lovely Leena, and good healthy-looking foliage on them.
Thank you Gail. :) Those hybrids are always very healthy, and keep their foliage good until autumn, while lactiflora foliage often gets brown early in the autumn.