Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Leena on January 22, 2019, 05:13:13 PM
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I have grown Arisaema ciliatum var liubanense from seeds about 10 years ago. It grows well and has also spread.
First and second picture are of it last summer. Behind it in the first picture is earlier flowering A.angustatum var peninsulae.
Then I have grown this third plant from seed ex seed as Arisaema consanguineum, and it flowered the first time last summer. It flowers a bit later than my A.ciliatum, but they grow in different beds.
However, to me they look very similar, but I am no expert in Arisaemas. Can anyone say is the plant in third, fourth and fifth picture A.consanguineum or A.ciliatum? What is the biggest difference that I should look for in them next summer?
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Leena, I grow both of these too (at least that's what the labels say, but i am no expert!). I also wonder what the distinguishing features of each are. The Pacific Bulb Society has some useful info on its website. Ciliatum can grow to 100cm and consanguineum to 200cm (mine don't, I think I must be too mean to them). The photos of ciliatum are useful, the 4th one shows the cilia which are apparently a distinguishing feature.
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Hi Leena, lovely photos of your plants.
Welcome to a whole world of muddled Arisaema chaos! Both Arisaema consanguineum and ciliatum are very commonly misnamed / muddled. The situation is not helped by the fact that they both very readily hybridise between themselves, so the chances of receiving 'pure' seed from an open-pollinated garden plant via a seed ex is very small indeed, as misnamed and hybridised seeds / plants have now long been circulated. The only way of knowing for sure that a plant is 100% a given species is to know with certainty it's wild provenance.
Both of your plants look very much like A.ciliatum liubaense, or at least, they both have lots of ciliatum liubaense in them! Best just to enjoy them as superb garden plants and forget the names!
Despite the name 'ciliatum', the presence or not of cilia on the spathe margin is not a reliable characteristic of the species. However, ciliatum is always stoloniferous, where as true consanguineum only makes sessile offsets.
For what its worth, the following pages might (or might not) help clarify things:
http://arisaema-resource.co.uk/arisaema-ciliatum (http://arisaema-resource.co.uk/arisaema-ciliatum)
http://arisaema-resource.co.uk/arisaema-consanguineum (http://arisaema-resource.co.uk/arisaema-consanguineum)
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Thank you Carolyn and Ben! :)
The links are very useful, and also other pages about cultivation and growing Arisaemas in your website. Thank you!
I will call both plants A.ciliatum.
I have had A.consanguineum grown from wild collected seeds (it was identified for me here (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=11543.msg309322#msg309322) in the forum) but unfortunately all plants died in hard winter 2016 outside.
Now a week ago I have sown some seeds of wild collected Arisaema sp from Yunnan in 3100m and hopefully they are more hardy because they were from higher elevation, but I think I will keep them protected during winters until they are big enough to flower.
My older A.ciliatum is definitely stoloniferous and last summer it was not as tall as previously and I thought maybe the tubers are too crowded. And there are other plants maybe too close to it. Another explanation is that last summer was so hot when it came up.
I like about it that it comes up very late in June, and so I can grow early spring bulbs (mostly Corydalis) around it, they seem not to mind growing together.
Two years ago I sowed seeds of A.elephas from seed ex seeds. They germinated well and look like this in their second year last summer. I have kept them protected inside in root cellar during winters so far, because I don't know if they are hardy enough to grow outside here??
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Two years ago I sowed seeds of A.elephas from seed ex seeds. They germinated well and look like this in their second year last summer. I have kept them protected inside in root cellar during winters so far, because I don't know if they are hardy enough to grow outside here??
These don't really look like A. elephas Leena, sorry. Maybe A. serratum? or something close. A. serratum is masquerading for other Arisaemas in seed exchanges often.
Regardless, in my garden A. ciliatum is also the longest to live in the ground. I don't have such large clumps as yours, it takes times for them to expand :) Love them all, some day I expect they'll also start talking.
First time flowering last summer :)
[attachimg=1]
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These don't really look like A. elephas Leena, sorry. Maybe A. serratum? or something close. A. serratum is masquerading for other Arisaemas in seed exchanges often.
Thank you Gabriela! You confirmed my suspicions that they are not A.elephas. They germinated fast in warm and that is why I wasn't sure they were the right species, and I was hoping someone here would say something about them. :)
Their leaves looked different from all other Arisaemas I have (not very many) so I'm still happy to have them. If they are A.serratum, they would be hardy also here outside, I think.
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Arisaema intermedium, un bulbe acheté cet hiver.
but what can serve this long spadix, who is going to crawl to the ground? a rope to raise the insects?
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Arisaema kiushianum - first time flowering.
[attachimg=1]
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Arisaema Kiushianum : this spadix goes up to or?
can we say that a climbing spadix attracts flying onsects, while a long spadix that goes to the ground attracts walking insects?
I love it very much : dark flower, spadix too long, and single and very large leaf; [attachimg=1]
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walking insect seems a valid hypothesis. Especially since I sometimes see ants ahead in the flowers of those with vertical spadices,so I wonder if they can not have (here anyway) a role in fertilization.
Arisaema intermedium et Arisaema Kiushianum, culture in the ground?
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personally as they are new bulbs bought, (I do not have much merit!), for the moment I grow them in pot. when they will be multiplied, I would try in the open ground
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In the araceae family, I have lot of flowers this year, but due to species carcteristics, ecposures and chaotic metéo, some plants of same var. are not growing in a coordinated way, (as for my dracunculus, still missed for the seeds this year!) and different species are found to bloom at the same time ...Some plants are just starting, others have finished blooming ...
If I have seeds among the arisaemas, there is a risk of mixing ... there will be discussions of identifications likely in some time! ;D
arisaema flavum had seed self-fertilization last year since he was the only one to bloom in his family, the only other araceae in bloom were Pinellia pedatisecta, I believe interbreeding improbable.
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Can Dracunculus vulgaris self-pollinate?
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1st flower of Arisaema candissimum. I obtained this species by a very small bulb of 5 mm. and 4 years later finally:
[attachimg=1]
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Well done Véronique; it's worth waitng for.
Are you enjoying its scent of violets?
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Well, I sniffed it conscientiously every day and I never felt anything!
on the other hand my Dracunculus in the ground for 12 years, by 34 ° C felt at several meters :-\
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Ah, yes, dracunculus. I thought my neighbors weren't tending their garbage very well and was ready to chat with them when I realized it was a large clump of dracunculus in full bloom in MY garden!
...Claire
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Is this Arisaema consanguineum?Pictures I have seen look paler green and with more noticeable stripes.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
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Arisaema franchetianum
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I have sown the self fecondated seeds produced in only one single flower of arisaema flavum, to test their fertility ....(they are supposed to be self-sterile no?)
that's OK :
(https://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/20/06/36/34/20190947.jpg)
new seeds soon...
(https://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/20/06/36/34/20190952.jpg)
soon seeds of arum hygrophillum:
(https://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/20/06/36/34/20190660.jpg[img])https://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/20/06/36/34/20190939.jpg[/img]
(https://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/20/06/36/34/20190658.jpg)
there is something, probably an animal, that carries the fruit of pinellia pedatisecta, I find it sprouting in pots everywhere ... but I can not find it in the ground.
I had sowed in a box, but I do not need to do any more ...
(https://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/20/06/36/34/20190946.jpg)
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Arum hygrophillum is very nice!
AnJo, are you "Plantafou" of ¨Plante Passion forum ?
Roma: the leaves of my Arisaema consanguineum are very similar to those in your photo.
I have 2 different individuals, one with a marbled stem and the other not.
they have not bloomed yet.
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I had bought Arisaema bockii from Estonia, and it turned out to be a strong growing Arisaema, very good. Flowers are not so spectacular, but I like it anyway. It is a good foliage plant.
First picture is of it flowering in June, close to Primula sieboldii.
In August it has red fruits, and the last picture is from a bed where it is growing.
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Is this Arisaema consanguineum?Pictures I have seen look paler green and with more noticeable stripes.
I didn't look here in a while Roma, yes it is consanguineum. There are various clones going around and one is this with narrow leaflets.
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I have sown the self fecondated seeds produced in only one single flower of arisaema flavum, to test their fertility ....(they are supposed to be self-sterile no?)
that's OK :
Arisaema flavum is not self-sterie AnJo; it produces fruits regularly and it is one of the easiest Arisaema to grow from seeds.
On the other hand, Pinellia pedatisecta is a sort of a weed (self seeds and also produces bulbils on the leaves axiles).
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I had bought Arisaema bockii from Estonia, and it turned out to be a strong growing Arisaema, very good. Flowers are not so spectacular, but I like it anyway. It is a good foliage plant.
First picture is of it flowering in June, close to Primula sieboldii.
In August it has red fruits, and the last picture is from a bed where it is growing.
Another beautiful scenery from your woodland garden Leena!
I am not familiar with this species but it seems that goes by the synonym A. engleri. Various websites show it with 5-7 leaflets (pedatisect).
In Flora of China - it is kept as A. bockii, the same description for the leaves with the fruit said to be yellow (?).
Maybe others can tell more about it.
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Thanks Gabriela. :)
This Arisaema was bought from Sulev Savisaar, Estonia in 2016 and his catalogue said about it in Estonian:
Arisaema amurense 'Bockii', amuuri tulivõhk ’Bockii’. Moskva Peabotaanikaaed on alates umbes aastast 1993 maailmas seemnevahetuse teel levitanud eksitava Arisaema bockii nime all seemneid, mis tegelikult pole ehtne Hiinas Sitšuanis kasvav (Arisaema yunnanense varieeruvuse piiresse kuuluv) liik, vaid hoopis amuuri tulivõhk. Selle amuuri tulivõha erilise vormi tähistamiseks olen ta ristinud sordiks ’Bockii’. Minu aias on ta amuuri tulivõha variantidest kõige ilusam. Tema tumepurpurne õisiku kandeleht on roheliste vöötidega. Kuna õisikuvars on lühem leherootsudest (ehtsal A. bockii’l vastupidi!), siis kipuvad kaunid õisiku kandelehed mais ja juunis jääma lehtede varju. Lehestiku kõrgus aias ulatub juulikuu keskel 70 cm, vilikond vaid 40 cm kõrguseni. Tulivõhad eelistavad aias niisket, kuid vett hästi läbilaskvat huumusrikast neutraalset kuni happelist mulda ning poolvarjulist kasvukohta.
With google translate it is:
Arisaema amurense 'Bockii', Amur fireball 'Bockii'. Since about 1993, the Moscow Botanical Garden has been distributing seeds under the misleading name of Arisaema bockii in the world, which is not, in fact, a genuine species (within the range of Arisaema yunnanense) growing in Sichuan, China, but the Amur fir. To celebrate the special form of this Amur fireflies, I have baptized them as 'Bockii'. In my garden, he is the most beautiful of the Amur fireflies. Its dark purple inflorescence bracts with green bands. Because the stalk of the inflorescence is shorter than the stalks (on the contrary, genuine A. bockii!), The beautiful inflorescence bracts in May and June tend to be shaded by leaves. The height of the foliage in the garden reaches 70 cm in the middle of July and the height of the foliage is only 40 cm. The fireflies prefer moist but water-permeable humus-rich neutral to acidic soil and semi-sheltered garden.
So actually I wrote the name wrong, it should have been A.amurense 'Bockii'. It has three leaflets like A.amurense, but it is bigger and somehow better plant than my other A.amurense. It is also very hardy.
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Thanks Leena. It is bigger than other A. amurense I've seen, for sure.
I understand the irony in naming it :) but a bit unfortunate choice because it can lead to confusions... impressive anyway.
A. triphyllum (the NA counterpart of A. amurense) can sometimes show up as a large form here, I don't know if the character would be transmitted through seeds, but worth trying.