Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: barnclos on March 01, 2017, 07:52:15 AM
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Last year I did a small experiment: I split my A. triphyllum seed between two pots. Both had 12 seeds, one was kept indoors (at a pretty constant 20 °C), the other was in a cold frame (never went below 0 °C, outside temp was -2 °C to 15 °C). Seed was planted on 14 March, and the first indoor seedling had appeared by 7 April (24 days) whereas the first outdoor seedling didn't appear until 21 June (99 days).
Both pots produced 9 seedlings each (I was quite pleased with 75% germination), and by mid July both pots were outdoors under a tree for a bit of shade.
Since November, they have been in my (almost) frost-free greenhouse, and yesterday I decided to repot them (they were in a deep pot, and probably could have survived another year, but I am an inveterate fiddler). The end result was: 7 indoor bulbs have survived, all pretty even in size; 8 outdoor bulbs survived, with more variation in size. (Sorry I didn't put a scale on the pics, but i was in my g/h and it was chucking it down, so decided against popping indoors for a ruler. But all is not lost, I later measured the plant label at 17 millimetres wide, so I'd say the smallest was 8 mm tall, the largest 15 mm).
Overall conclusion (of this uncontrolled and limited experiment): it doesn't make much difference where you germinate tripyllum. Perhaps I should have tried something more challenging, I only managed to get 3 tiny sikokianum tubers from 20 seeds planted.
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Arisaema triphyllum germinated indoors
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Arisaema triphyllum germinated outdoors
P.S. as a newbie, I felt a little unsure about starting the 2017 Arisaema topic. Apologies if I'm treading on anyone's toes.
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Not at all - you are welcome to start any thread. Especially one with this sort of interesting info!!
an aside : friends once claimed they'd got 120 percent germination on A. sikokianum seed- but I didn't belive them!
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barnclos,
very nice to see all those A. triphyllum little tubers :)
In our climate (zone 5-6) it makes a difference if Arisaema spp. are started indoors (I usually sow in February) simply because the growing season here is very short (outside triphyllum will start to germinate in June as well).
Maggi, last time I got 120% germination on 'sikokianum' it proved after 3 years to be triphyllum ??? ;D
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I couldn't resist repotting my A. consanguineum and ciliatum seedlings (which were also planted on March 14 2016).
Arisaema ciliatum (indoor), first appearance 3 April (20 days) - 4 survived the winter
Arisaema ciliatum (outdoor), first appearance 11 May (58 days) - 17 survived the winter
Arisaema consanguineum (indoor), first appearance 31 March (17 days) - 10 survived the winter
Arisaema consanguineum (outdoor), first appearance 6 May (53 days) - 14 survived the winter
First observation: I need to take better notes. I was pretty sure that I'd put 12 seeds per pot, but the 17 and 14 survivors suggest that it was 20 (its either 12 or 20 for round pots*).
Second observation: outdoors seems to produce more tubers (if your climate allows ;)**), but I wouldn't stake my scientific reputation on it.
* - in case you were wondering, square pots get 9, 16 or 25 seeds
** - it was -10 °C in early February this year, unusually cold, and definitely not conducive to germination
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I went through some of my Arisaemas kept in the garage and because there were discussions about A. ciliatum var. liubaense/A. consanguineum I'll post few images showing the stolons on A. ciliatum var. liubaense. Sometimes they detach very fast but even so the young tubers have a distinct elongated shape not seen in consanguineum.
A. ciliatum var. liubaense - 2 forms
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And a few more Arisaema while I'm here
A. franchetii - the big one should flower this year Ups! I meant A. fargesii :P (was thinking at franchetianum)
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Tiny tubers of A. propinquum - I got few seeds very late in June so they had a short growing season.
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Arisaema ringens, like a cobra ready to strike!
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I sowed Arisaema elephas from the seed exchange seeds. They germinated in warm in two weeks, and because I have read somewhere that A.elephas needs cold stratification before coming up I began to wonder about these.
What do you think, do they look like A.elephas or is it too early to tell?
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Three different forms of Arisaema ringens.
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Arisaema amurense
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Arisaema griffithii 'Dark knight' just before the frost (now it's just a pile of mush :'( :'( )
And Arisaema thunbergii subsp. urashima which didn't mind the frost
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Arisaema griffithii 'Dark knight' just before the frost (now it's just a pile of mush :'( :'( )
And Arisaema thunbergii subsp. urashima which didn't mind the frost
That's too bad - what a specimen! Maybe the tuber is OK though.
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That's too bad - what a specimen! Maybe the tuber is OK though.
I hope so, but I think it'll be OK, just have to wait for next year, I guess. (Unless it has resting buds on other parts of the tuber (it makes very big tubers))
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Don't worry, Wim, the same thing happened to my A. griffithii two years ago when we had -4C one night at the end of April. It came up fine the next year. We are due night frosts again this week, so I will be covering it with fleece.
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Don't worry, Wim, the same thing happened to my A. griffithii two years ago when we had -4C one night at the end of April. It came up fine the next year. We are due night frosts again this week, so I will be covering it with fleece.
Good to hear, Carolyn. It won't happen again!
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Wim,
We had -2C on Tuesday night and I covered arisaema griffithii with fleece. The tops of the leaves have been scorched where they touched the fleece. I should have used 2 or 3 layers. It does seem to be particularly sensitive.
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Arisaema thunbergii var. urashima was looking great today!
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Arisaema kishidae
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Arisaema triphyllum 'Starburst'
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Arisaema mayebarae
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Arisaema peninsulae
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Arisaema sikokianum
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Beautiful pics of your arisaemas Wim and Fred and so well grown!
Do you guys lift and store your corms dry each year?
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Beautiful pics of your arisaemas Wim and Fred and so well grown!
Do you guys lift and store your corms dry each year?
Some I do, some I don't. The thunbergii and triphyllum shown above, stay out in the garden the entire year. I've got some special colour forms of thunbergii which I lift every year and I do the same with kiushianum.
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Hello Wim.
Do you think that these are two different forms of Arisaema ringens that il have there ?
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=3]
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Arisaema ringens for the last time this year, hence the look at their backs ;)
And three times my favourite owls, Arisaema kiushianum.
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Wim - Lovely specimens Wim. Can you give us some tips on growing A. kiushianum and thunbergii urashima? The seedlings come up early and then collapse about 3 weeks later, they're still in the pots but won't see them again till next March!
john
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Fred - Nice ones, they'd be splendid mixed in with a very big clump of the type.
john
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Wim - Lovely specimens Wim. Can you give us some tips on growing A. kiushianum and thunbergii urashima? The seedlings come up early and then collapse about 3 weeks later, they're still in the pots but won't see them again till next March!
john
Hi John,
what can I say, thunbergii just grows outside and stays in leaf until July/August. I don't do anything about that one. Just some nourishment, if I don't forget! And kiushianum is kept in pots (50% garden soil + 50% sharp grit). Almost completely dry and cool (not below freezing) in winter. They are placed outside during summer, untill they die down naturally (August/September)...Not a lot of tips on growing them, I know, but over here, they are quite easy.
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Friend offered me an Arisaema yesterday and I'm very happy to get it. Initially it was thought to be a sibling of a sikkokianum x amurense which Wim had identified last year. It turns out it came from a bulb supplier called Garden Import (owned by Dugald Cameron) in Ontario, now closed down.
She has no record of the name. I've narrowed it down a bit, Arisaema costatum, dahaiense (but said to be tender), elephas, propinquum or speciosum (also said to be tender).
Thoughts? Update - Thank-you Wim, P. Bruggeman has identified it as propinquum which I've been chasing for quite awhile.
john (apologies the original post had to be seriously edited & pix renamed.)
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Nothing special, but seed grown over the last few years: Arisaema jacquemontii (left), consanguineum (middle), propinquum (right)
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And it's Arisaema yamatense v. sugimotoi time again in Ken's garden. A very lusty aroid. One of the oldest clumps in the city just a block away easily reaches 1.3m or more. This species was grown from seed by Philip MacD in the 90's and generously spread around amongst lucky friends.
john
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Nothing special, but seed grown over the last few years: Arisaema jacquemontii (left), consanguineum (middle), propinquum (right)
Very nice mix Ashley; consanguineum, ciliatum and others like them are still to show up here. This is the time when I start to look around with anxiety (and eventually start to scratch the ground...).
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And it's Arisaema yamatense v. sugimotoi time again in Ken's garden. A very lusty aroid. One of the oldest clumps in the city just a block away easily reaches 1.3m or more. This species was grown from seed by Philip MacD in the 90's and generously spread around amongst lucky friends.
john
It has an extremely interesting pseudostem John; here is 'The baby' - thank you, sprawling on an old bench by itself, somewhere in April (I kept the tuber in the garage and started early).
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Gabriela - Glad to hear the "baby" is doing well. You will soon have plenty.
Yesterday Ken saw an A. speciousum just getting ready to flower in a garden, a dark flower - mayebarae perhaps. I was quite surprised as I had assumed it was tender.
It might be wise some year to hold sugimotoi back and plant it later so it flowers with other species in the hope they get up to some mischief.
Are you growing griffithii?
john
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Gabriela - Glad to hear the "baby" is doing well. You will soon have plenty.
Yesterday Ken saw an A. speciousum just getting ready to flower in a garden, a dark flower - mayebarae perhaps. I was quite surprised as I had assumed it was tender.
It might be wise some year to hold sugimotoi back and then plant so it flowers later and with other species in the hope they get up to some mischief.
Are you growing griffithii?
john
I was very surprised it started to grow so early, I had no choice but start to water; consang., ciliatum, .....never do so.
I tried griffithii twice (tubers from now closed Garden Imports) and they came bad each time. Looking OK and then in the spring a shy attempt to start growing before going down the 'drain'. I think there are a lot of infected tubers offered for sale.
It even happened with sazensoo tubers (from Fraser's Thimble).
That's fine because I'm cutting down on them; unless 'forced' upon with good tubers :) ::)
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I too await a Fraser's Thimble Farm A. sazensoo and a few other rather pricey ones.......the weather has been so cool, 5c this morning.
john
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I too await a Thimle Farm A. sazensoo and a few other rather pricey ones.......the weather has been so cool, 5c this morning.
john
5C - that's really extreme!!! Not so cold here but 4 hail storms in the last two days!
You had good idea to buy in the spring - by now they should be grown up (and the bad ones dead). I bought plants in the fall that year, impossible to say when they are dry if good or not.
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I bought mine from Thimble Arisaemas last autumn! Potted them up immediately in a dry mix and stored them at 5c. It could be a long wait but I won't hesitate to let them know about any problems, they;ve been poretty good in the past even with mislabelled items.
john
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5C - that's really extreme!!! Not so cold here but 4 hail storms in the last two days!
Why the Scot's stayed, made great wool sweaters and Scotch. It's a nice damp cool you see. Meconopsis having their best year, P. mloko's been ion flower since Victoria Day, surely a record for here.
Hope there's no hail damage with you.
john - @ +12c.
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Why the Scot's stayed, made great wool sweaters and Scotch. It's a nice damp cool you see. Meconopsis having their best year, P. mloko's been ion flower since Victoria Day, surely a record for here.
Hope there's no hail damage with you.
john - @ +12c.
Yes for sure, and the climate is also favourable for Rhodos so, advantage to Halifax.
Nothing major with the hail but the chances for some species to set seeds are going down day by day with so much rain.
Re - Arisaema, when you said 'I await' I thought you just bought them. I don't know what to say - when I had it, sazensoo was always early (sort like sikokianum). I also kept it dry but it didn't matter.
I didn't said anything because in a way is not their fault (partly only). It's impossible to say when dry which tubers are infected, and it happened with some consanguineum I grew as well - perfectly good tubers looking in the fall, by early spring found them mushy in the pot.
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Christmas in June !!!
A box of 9 different arisaemas arrived in the mail this morning. Whoo Hoo. Nice addition to my growing collection of tubers and seedlings.
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I think there are a lot of infected tubers offered for sale.
It even happened with sazensoo tubers (from Fraser's Thimble).
You're quite correct Gabriela and a few gardening friends agree - something terribly wrong with Fraser Thimble's A. sazensoo tubers. Everyone has lost them, up and collapsing and rotting just as rooting. All are experienced Arisaema growers. Giot fed up waiting for mine to surface today, so slowly removed soil only to find a tuber of slop. I'll let them know, they're pretty co-operative.
john
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A few years ago, I ordered ten tubers of Arisaema nepenthoides from Gardenimport. All had advanced shoot growth, and major fungal infections when they arrived, and I lost the lot (managed to salvage a single tiny side growth from the last tuber before it rotted away). These tubers apparently were coming from India, and suffered badly in transit. Gardenimport made good on the lot, but ceased business two years later.
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You're quite correct Gabriela and a few gardening friends agree - something terribly wrong with Fraser Thimble's A. sazensoo tubers. Everyone has lost them, up and collapsing and rotting just as rooting. All are experienced Arisaema growers. Giot fed up waiting for mine to surface today, so slowly removed soil only to find a tuber of slop. I'll let them know, they're pretty co-operative.
john
Sorry to hear this John; it was indeed too late to expect growth from it. I think is best to let them know (although I didn't said anything at the time). I am somehow sure they know about the problem but if more people complain, they may try to screen somehow the tubers by sampling the lots for infection; or change their supplier.
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A few years ago, I ordered ten tubers of Arisaema nepenthoides from Gardenimport. All had advanced shoot growth, and major fungal infections when they arrived, and I lost the lot (managed to salvage a single tiny side growth from the last tuber before it rotted away). These tubers apparently were coming from India, and suffered badly in transit. Gardenimport made good on the lot, but ceased business two years later.
Yes, Gordon it is a general problem with many Arisaema tubers suppliers, especially on the lower cost end. The companies who are buying to resell them of course will take the blame; on the other hand if they would be more expensive, the tubers won't sell (at least not in Canada).
And this is how we end not having a reliable source for good quality Arisaema tubers here.
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A dark form of Arisaema candidissimum in flower.
The gently spreading Arisaeam ciliatum var. liubaense
and a red stemmed Arisaema erubescens.
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Well this unknown has finally opened up and we presume it's (ed. )Arisaema kuishianum
thunbergii v. urashima.
john - a balmy +9c this morning.
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Sorry to hear this John; it was indeed too late to expect growth from it. I think is best to let them know (although I didn't said anything at the time). I am somehow sure they know about the problem but if more people complain, they may try to screen somehow the tubers by sampling the lots for infection; or change their supplier.
It's been so cool here I had held some hope it would emerge. A. heterophyllym just peaking up but concinum and candidissimum still to show.
john
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It's been so cool here I had held some hope it would emerge. A. heterophyllym just peaking up but concinum and candidissimum still to show.
john
Same here, as well the Roscoeas are late, almost broke the shoots of auriculata yesterday ::)
Your Arisaema? looks like kiushianum.
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Gabriela - Correct, kiushianum it is. From the leaves I had narrowed it down to either hunanense or kuishianum from the leaves. A. thunbergii not up yet. ??? (just did a late evening exploratory and the shoots are out of the tuber and inch or so but that's down a good 5" below the soil line so it could be a wait. A few warm days would do it - one tomorrow.)
john
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A dark form of Arisaema candidissimum in flower.
The gently spreading Arisaeam ciliatum var. liubaense
and a red stemmed Arisaema erubescens.
Hello Wim,
Where did you find Arisaema candidissimum?
I've been looking for it for a long time. Every time I thought I'd buy it, it was something else or not alive.
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Arisaema candidissimum from the exchange (67-497), sown Feb 2014.
The only clone I had already (for almost 40 years ::)) might now set seed at last. It came from my grandmother who grew it as a pot plant to enjoy the scent of violets.
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Arisaema candidissimum from the exchange (67-497), sown Feb 2014.
The only clone I had already (for almost 40 years ::)) might now set seed at last. It came from my grandmother who grew it as a pot plant to enjoy the scent of violets.
Wow, 3 years to flower is really good, and true to name from exchange! I was 'admiring' today a Roscoea 'alpina' which is surely not alpina....(AGS seedex)
Nice to see you mention the scent, so few people notice it :)
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1. Arisaema candidissimum (white form)
2. Arisaema propinquum
3. Arisamea flavum. I like the yellow colour. Does it occur with other arisaemas?
4. Arisaema ciliatum var liubaense
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Arisaema dahaiense in flower today & the last pic the giant form of A. consanguineum with a flatted huge spadix. . A. heterophyllum has jumped out oif the ground. No sign of A. franchetianum 'Hugo' yet.
johnw - +17c
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Very nice all! Mine are so late this year, who knows, some may not be alive anymore.
Gerrit - I remember reading somewhere that A. flavum is the only one with yellow/ish spathe.
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re: yellow
I saw this Arisaema in a friend's garden a week ago and wondered if it had simply gone over. Think so with that bit of brown on the hood but.....
john
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Gerrit - I remember reading somewhere that A. flavum is the only one with yellow/ish spathe.
Arisaema muratae is greenish-yellow or yellowish-green.
But when A. flavum is the only real yellow one, it is another reason to be fond of it. Easyly overlooked between all those giants. so cute, easy to grow from seeds and making a splendid display when growing together in a group.
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re: yellow
I saw this Arisaema in a friend's garden a week ago and wondered if it had simply gone over. Think so with that bit of brown on the hood but.....
john
Yellow indeed. Maybe this Arisaema muratae?
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My friend says of this yellow one that it was A. amurense. Someone stood on it since I was there and snapped the whole thing off, we'll have to wait another year for a better look at it.
Turns out I had shot the foliage, so I didn't trample it!
john - +12c
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Sauromatum horsefieldii
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Sauromatum diversifolium
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1. Arisaema franchetianum
2. Arisaema fargesii
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wonderful, i've sown Sauromatum twice and i lost bulbils twice.
In which substrat do you grow them?
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In which substrat do you grow them?
@ Sauromatum
Initially I grew them in pots, with normal potting soil and some gravel, so nothing specific. Last year I tried one in a crecice outside, and no problems. The plant flowered, so they are not difficult in culture, I think.
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Arisaema season has started for me with this newly acquired (Tonkin Bulbs) Arisaema thunbergi v urashima. I think it is beautiful!