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Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: DaveM on March 07, 2008, 08:08:16 PM

Title: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 07, 2008, 08:08:16 PM
In this thread I will share some of the wonderful wild daffs seen during the last two weeks of February, firstly in central Portugal and then from S Spain.

So first to Portugal and the Serra da Estrella, rising to around 2000 m and largely underlain by granite.
First set of pix come from the high parts around Lagaoa Comprida with Narcissus asturiensis growing in some abundance in areas between the exposures of granite. The soil is residual quartz/mica sand with generous proportions of organic matter.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 07, 2008, 08:14:52 PM
Nearby grows Narcissus bulbocodium var nivalis, the high altitude ecotype of the species. This occupies the very thin stony and sandy areas immediately adjacent to granite exposures. The morning we spent around the reservoir was extremely windy and it was difficult to stand up at times. No wonder this and N asturiensis grow so close to the ground!!!!
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 07, 2008, 08:17:46 PM
For comparison, below is Narcissus bulbocodium ssp bulbocodium, which is locally quite common at lower altitudes in the Serra.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 07, 2008, 08:22:23 PM
Widely spread throughout the lower regions, generally in pine woodlands is the delightful, pale yellow form of Narcissus triandrus in its variety cernuus. I really like this one........
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 07, 2008, 08:28:31 PM
Just occasionally NN bulbocodium and triandrus var. cernuus are found growing in proximity, resulting in the natural hybrid N x consolationis'.

On the southern side of the sierra var cernuus is replaced by the vivid yellow form, N triandrus ssp triandrus var. concolor.......
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Hans J on March 07, 2008, 08:29:30 PM
Great pics Dave !!!
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 07, 2008, 08:34:52 PM
Thanks, Hans.
I suppose the real gem of this region is the very local Narcissus scaberulus, known only from the Mondego valley lying to the north of the range. Here weather was rather more to my liking and the species is found typically on rock faces (always granite) along the river banks and surrounding hill sides - some very pretty spots. Some pix of the valley and then the species in the next set.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 07, 2008, 08:38:37 PM
and Narcissus scaberulus.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 07, 2008, 08:51:14 PM
Related to the last species is Narcissus calcicola. This was in full splendour in the Serra dos Candeeiros, perhaps a little more than half way between the Serra da Estrela and Lisbon. As its specific epithet suggests it is found on limestone.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Paddy Tobin on March 07, 2008, 09:19:36 PM
Dave,

A wonderful set of photographs, extraordinarily beautiful plants.

N. triandrus cernuus is outstanding, a truly beautiful narcissus. N. scaberulus and N. calcicola run very close behind.

Beautiful countryside.

Paddy
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Maggi Young on March 07, 2008, 09:22:07 PM
Great pix, David, of super places and plants. I love it! Ian hasn't seen this thread yet... he'll be beside himself with glee when he does!
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 07, 2008, 09:39:05 PM
Thanks both for your kind comments. Just the last few narcissi from Portugal for tonight: a few more of N bulbocodium, from the Serra de Arrabida, just to the south of Lisbon. Seems a bit incongruous to see these beautiful gems just a few hundred metres above the local cement works, albeit in a national park!
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Armin on March 07, 2008, 09:53:42 PM
Dave,
many thanks for sharing all this "golden nuggets".
It's a pure pleasure - wunderful 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Rafa on March 07, 2008, 11:58:46 PM
What an extraordinary report!!! :o :o :o  this is a fantástic document about wild daffodils in Iberian Peninsula.
As you have noticed in our countries is not rare to see the worst activities agaist the most beautiful and rich in biodiversity places. And it seems that laws are not enoguth to stop them...
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Paul T on March 08, 2008, 05:55:07 AM
Wonderful!  Just wonderful!!  The triandrus cernuus is delightful, and the hybrid with bulbocodium is pretty fab too!!  Then of course calcicola and scaberulus..... most excellent!!  ;D  Great stuff!!  8)
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Gerdk on March 08, 2008, 06:38:08 AM
Dave,

What a colourful and informative report! Please continue.

Gerd
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 08, 2008, 01:25:09 PM
With pleasure, Gerd.

The pressures of commercialisation are none more so apparent along the Meditterranean coast of King Rafa's country, to which we moved after our week in Portugal. Even if we try to forget(??) the horrendous sprawl that is the Costa del Sol, rapid development, presumably for tourism, has moved to the Ronda area with many new housing estates being built now. Ronda sits atop a large sandstone/conglomerate cliff (pic 1), with a wonderful vista of the surrounding limestone mountains. The increased population that these houses will bring, particularly in summer, will put even more pressure on the meagre water supply in the region. Attempts to secure water supply have not always been successful, as testified by the empty reservoir above the town of Montejaque. In pic 2 you can see one of 2 dams constructed to form a reservoir, but the area has never filled (but the detailed walkers map of the area shows this as a body of water!!!). Somebody forgot to tell them that putting a reservoir in a limestone area is not a clever idea. Maybe they needed the advice of Dr Rock!!!

The rugged limestone scenery of this area provides for splendid mountain views, with small towns such as Montejaque (pic 3) and Grazalema nestling in between the cliffs; and there is an amazing spring flora in this area. The last of this set of pics shows the rare Abies pinsapo, confined to the high parts of the Sierra de las Nieves. More daffs to follow.....
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 08, 2008, 01:34:41 PM
Back to the narcissus.
Among the many gems of this area is Narcissus cordubensis. This stately jonquil is one of my all time favourites, particularly with its delicious sweet scent......
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: annew on March 08, 2008, 03:16:37 PM
Fabulous, Dave! Why would anyone want to lie on a beach all day when they could see sights like these? Mind you, it's probably just as well everyone isn't trampling all over these treasures.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 08, 2008, 03:28:00 PM
Why indeed, Anne!

The Sierra del las Nieves is the home to Narcissus hispanicus......
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 08, 2008, 03:40:39 PM
The next set are a bit of a puzzle - to me at least. This delightful little narcissus was seen in a number of localities in the Montejaque and Grazalema areas, growing only on north-facing, cliffs of limestone - very few plants grow in readily accessible places (even to mountain goats) so most are telephoto shots.

Said to be N cuatrecasasii, to me it doesn't look much like the clone I have grown for many years. My plant is altogether smaller with the leaves shorter than the stems at flowering and curving out and up from where it emerges from the ground. Yet, using the keys in John Blanchard's book the only thing it can be is N cuatrecasasii.

I'd be interested to read your thoughts.......

Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: mark smyth on March 08, 2008, 04:10:31 PM
Thanks Dave.

Maybe Brian Duncan will come in from the side lines are show us photos from his recent trip to Portugal
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Gerdk on March 08, 2008, 04:54:23 PM
Dave,
According my information the small daffodil above the town of Grazalema is
Narcissus cuatrecasasii.

Gerd
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 08, 2008, 05:22:24 PM
Thanks, Gerd, that is certainly what I had heard, but........... It's habitat is certainly very distinct.

The next set of pix are of plants that really let you know they are around - the scent is heady in the open air, but in a confined space I find it overpowering. But....... I really can't get to grips with the differences between them: NN papyraceous, panizzianus and polyanthus. I don't think we saw any convincing N polyanthus, but we did see what key out to be both the others. The trouble is that, though a single population may be dominantly one or the other, one can always find small numbers that readily fit the other - if you see what I'm trying to get at. So, in my albeit limited experience, I'm not sure that these really are distinct species, perhaps just varieties. But then, I'm a lumper!!! Anyway, enjoy what I think is N papyraceus first:
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on March 08, 2008, 05:38:10 PM
 :o :o :o
What a stunning ride you gave us Dave !
Unique pictures of all these wonders of na(rcissi)ture - thanks ever so much for sharing these !
 ;)
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 08, 2008, 05:38:33 PM
And here's Nacissus panizzianus
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: carolesmith on March 08, 2008, 05:40:48 PM
Photos are wonderful and the triandrus cernuus just gorgeous.  A visit to Portugal is definitely a must.  
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 08, 2008, 05:52:06 PM
Widespread in the area is another diminutive jonquil - the one with the horrible name: Narcissus assoanus (Oh, do be careful ......).

Anyway, this grows on low rocky banks.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: hadacekf on March 08, 2008, 05:59:04 PM
Dave,
Thank you for the colourful and informative report!
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 08, 2008, 06:00:22 PM
Interestingly, at several localities south of Benaojan, we saw NN panizzianus and assoanus growing in close proximity. Result, a few hybrids, shown here. The first pic shows one in which assoanus characters dominate - bit of a miserable thing I must say.

But the others are definitely more interesting ...... and a lovely scent too.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 08, 2008, 06:09:06 PM
The last of the daffs from this trip is another favourite: Narcissus cantabricus. We had hoped to see this in abundance, but seemingly we were a little late this year. Those that we did see in very small numbers were growing in deep shade in thick phrygana and in pine woodlands. The form is not perhaps the best (first two pix).

I've also appended some pix of N cantabricus that I took a few years ago much farther NE in Andalucia on the top of the Sierra de los Filabres. - subspecies monophyllus - a superb cantabricus.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: art600 on March 08, 2008, 06:11:48 PM
Dave

The last photograph of N. panizzianus is wonderful and the others aren't bad.  Is this a Narcissus that can be grown outside in the UK? or is it for the bulb house?

Did you book hotels before hand or were you able to follow the season and go where the plants were?
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Lvandelft on March 08, 2008, 06:16:29 PM
So much information and such beautiful pictures.
Dave, I love especially that also show so many habitats with surroundings.
Gives a bit of an idea what those Narcissus like in nature.
Thank you that you share them with us!
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: art600 on March 08, 2008, 06:18:20 PM
Luit
Do you have room in your garden for some small mountains?
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Hans A. on March 08, 2008, 06:30:45 PM
Dave,
thanks so much for this wonderful trip through spain and portugal! Great Pics.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: ian mcenery on March 08, 2008, 06:31:01 PM
Fantastic Dave !!!!!!
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: annew on March 08, 2008, 06:33:10 PM
 :o
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Lvandelft on March 08, 2008, 07:17:44 PM
Luit
Do you have room in your garden for some small mountains?

Yes room enough, Arthur.  :D :D

But in our place, just at about sea level it would not look nice, I think.
But you will know what I meant, don't you?   ;D
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: DaveM on March 08, 2008, 09:54:35 PM
Arthur
NN papyraceous/panizzianus are the 'Paper White' daffs, grown in the Scilly Isles I believe for the florists' market. To my knowledge these is not hardy outside in UK - and most certainly not up here in Scotland!
This was an organised tour so hotels were booked beforehand. However, travel in Portugal and Spain is easy and at this time of the year the hotels that are open are not usually full. Of course, it helps if you can speak a little of the language ........

Luit,
I think that when you look at plants in the wild it is very important to try and understand Something of the ecology of them - the habitat and geology is very important in this respect. Only then perhaps, we might gain an insight in how to grow them. So I do try to take habitat shots as well as plant portraits.

Thanks all for your comments.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Paddy Tobin on March 08, 2008, 09:59:18 PM
Great show, Dave. Really enjoyed the photographs. Amazing where the narcissus grow. Amazing to see them in a crack in the rocks or in a small depression. Defies belief except that you have shown us.

Paddy
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: dominique on March 08, 2008, 10:04:47 PM
Dave
Absolutely fantastic report in natural habitat. Thank you and more and more !!!
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Lvandelft on March 08, 2008, 10:16:33 PM

Luit,
I think that when you look at plants in the wild it is very important to try and understand Something of the ecology of them - the habitat and geology is very important in this respect. Only then perhaps, we might gain an insight in how to grow them. So I do try to take habitat shots as well as plant portraits.

Thanks all for your comments.


That's exactly why I appreciate these pictures so much Dave!
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: art600 on March 08, 2008, 10:56:10 PM
Dave
Who organised the trip - it looks an excellent one.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: ranunculus on March 09, 2008, 11:07:38 AM
Only just discovered this thread Dave (AOL have been off line for a number of days) and it is magnificent....many thanks!
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Lesley Cox on March 09, 2008, 11:10:28 PM
Add my thanks too Dave. What a super trip you had. It's wonderful to see all those growing in their native habitats.
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: tonyg on March 09, 2008, 11:36:50 PM

One of the best threads we have had - Thanks!!!
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Anthony Darby on March 10, 2008, 02:43:04 PM

One of the best threads we have had - Thanks!!!

I second this. Fantastic. 8) I have Narcissus cuatrecasassii out now and a tiny flower labelled N. scaberulous but it looks more like a tiny rupicola. :( It is so good to see them in their natural habitat. One day?
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: John Forrest on March 10, 2008, 02:52:37 PM
Wonderful to see all those wild daffs and habitats. Cheers Dave
Title: Re: Wild daffs in Portugal and Spain, February 2008
Post by: Paul T on March 11, 2008, 08:58:39 AM
Fantastic Dave!!  Great Stuff!!  Interesting to see taht the assoanus you showed has much larger cups than the form we grow here in Australia (well the form I've seen anyway).  I rather like your wild one, as os distinctive.  All wonderful pics.... thanks so much for sharing them with us.  8)
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