Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: johnw on December 07, 2016, 06:10:58 PM
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I've never been able to sprout Berberis empetri
formisfolia or Sorbus poteriifolia. I wonder if anyone might be able to give me a few tips?
johnw
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Do you mean Berberis empetrifolium?
I have managed to germinate B. empetrifolium seed from Chile once. I had the pot outside during winter but didn't do anything special.
Maybe you can try a strong acid on both kind of seed? The berries go through the bird's digestive system where they are brutally treated.
Berberis empetrifolium from Argentina:
[attachimg=1]
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Hello Hoy ,
that is a interesting idea to treat the seeds with acid ...I had a similar mind
Do you have a receipt which acid ? how many % ?
Best wishes
Hans
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Indeed the species I meant was B. empetrifolia, no wonder nothing came up when I googled. Years ago I treated Cercis and Albizia with H2SO4, straight up and for only a few seconds then a rinse, and had great germination. Recently I simply pour boiling water over the seeds and let them sit in that water overnight, swelling is noticeable by morning and they sprout rapidly. I have no acids about these days and wonder if this hot water treatment would suffice. Wiki mentions the seeds have a waxy layer and wonder if straight acid is required to melt that wax away?
Quite enamoured with this species as a friend in eastern Newfoundland grows it from her own seed collection in S America.
john
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You may also want to read this article John - where they studied the seeds dispersal/germination after consumed by a local lizard:
http://www.ieb-chile.cl/uploads/publicaciones/Celedon-Neghme_et_al_2008_Acta_Oecol.pdf (http://www.ieb-chile.cl/uploads/publicaciones/Celedon-Neghme_et_al_2008_Acta_Oecol.pdf)
But it is renown a species with low germination percentage which may indicate embryonless seeds or other embryon-related deficiencies. In any case, scarification followed by cold/moist stratification should lead to some germination if the seeds are viable. Instead of acids, various solvents can be used - maybe the easiest would be ethyl alcohol.
For Myrica gale the waxy seed coat can be removed by repeated washes with warm water/detergent/rinses.
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Concerning Sorbus poteriifolia, I didn't have problem with it.
Right after harvest, I simply took the seeds out of the berries, put them in the sowing pot, and let the winter do the rest of the job.
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Concerning Sorbus poteriifolia, I didn't have problem with it.
Right after harvest, I simply took the seeds out of the berries, put them in the sowing pot, and let the winter do the rest of the job.
Same here. Think it needs a good cold winter.
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I've never succeeded with Sorbus seed (even fresh) in pots outdoors although rowan seedlings from bird droppings are almost a weed in the garden. Therefore it seems that temperature is not the only trigger.
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I've tried S. poteriifolia at least 10 times and have given it plenty of winter but no luck. Had one seed each of S. radaiensis and S. caloneura PW#15 sprout over the years. No luck with S. megalocarpa either.
Bean says this of S. poteriifolia and I wonder what the herbaceous reference means?
john
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Possibly like Salix herbacea in that, though woody, the branches are often beneath the soil surface/litter and therefore the plant appears herbaceous when all the leaves fall in winter.
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Bean says this of S. poteriifolia and I wonder what the herbaceous reference means?
john
I think he means those species are more like a herb with no woody stem above ground.
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Hello Hoy ,
that is a interesting idea to treat the seeds with acid ...I had a similar mind
Do you have a receipt which acid ? how many % ?
Best wishes
Hans
Hans,
I have no receipt but I think the concentration don't matter that much. You don't need to dissolve the seed though! Sulphuric acid (H2SO4) is strong and can damage organic matter quickly. I have used hydrochloric acid (HCl) maybe ca 20% for a few hours.
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Trond ,
many thanks for your information
Thats well that HCl also works ...I have it here at home
I asked today friend and I got the suggestion to look for the PH value ...PH2 should be well
Hans
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I've never succeeded with Sorbus seed (even fresh) in pots outdoors although rowan seedlings from bird droppings are almost a weed in the garden. Therefore it seems that temperature is not the only trigger.
I have grown various sorbus from seed. I wash off the fruit pulp and rinse the seeds well, soaking them for a week and changing the water every day. Then the seeds are sown in a pot and subjected to a Scottish winter in the open air. Ashley, perhaps your weather is too mild in Cork? But the seeds which have been cleaned by birds germinate OK. It must be down to cleaning and soaking. I'm not keen on messing about with strong acids, would vinegar or lemon juice be effective? Anyone tried this?
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I've never succeeded with Sorbus seed (even fresh) in pots outdoors although rowan seedlings from bird droppings are almost a weed in the garden. Therefore it seems that temperature is not the only trigger.
Ashley, here is one more thought on Sorbus:
They have a fully developed embryo and simple physiological dormancy, but it has been shown that if at the end of stratification period the conditions are unfavorable (usually regarding the temp.) the seeds will enter a secondary dormancy; and this has a genetic basis.
I don’t know if it explains entirely why your Sorbus seeds don't germinate (I understand seeds from other sources), but many studies proved that inherited germination characteristics is the reason why species from various families will show differences in germination in case of seeds collected from different habitats/regions.
On short, if it's about S. poteriifolia, Darren or Philippe should send you some of theirs genetically-fit seeds ;D
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According to Wikipedia, stomach acid has a pH of 1.5-3.5. 5% distilled vinegar has a pH of about 2.5. Perhaps vinegar would be an acceptable (and easier to obtain) substitute?
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Good idea Tristan ,
I have it just tested :
Our vinegar has 5,5 % ...the PH value is 3,0 ....sounds perfect
Now we have to know how many hours ...
Hans
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Mr Google returned some interesting results for the search term "bird gut transit time". The results suggest 30-60 minutes would be a reasonable time to soak seeks in vinegar to replicate the avian gut environment.
Adaptations for Avian Frugivory: Assimilation Efficiency and Gut Transit Time of Manacus vitellinus and Pipra mentalis (https://www.jstor.org/stable/4219061?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)
Gut evacuation was rapid; maximum transit time of a labeled fruit was 30 min. Seeds passed through the gut faster (Manacus: 15 min; Pipra: 12 min) than the accompanying fruit epidermis (both spp: 22 min). Manakins regurgitated large seeds (> 5 mm diameter) in 7 to 9 min.
Intestinal Transit: How Can It Be Delayed Long Enough forBirds to Act as Long-distance Dispersal Agents? (https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/auk/v109n04/p0933-p0936.pdf)
...food passage in birds is generally rapid compared with that of mammals (especially ruminants) or other vertebrates (c.f. data in Warner 1981, Karasov et al. 1986). For example, studies have shown that color-marked barium sulfate required only 22.9 to 69.4 min to move through the gut of passerines,
Digestive System: Food & Feeding Habits (http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birddigestion.html)
In general, typical mean retention times are ... 15 - 60 minutes for frugivores (Karasov 1990, Klasing 1998).
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Many thanks Matt :D
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Many thanks Carolyn and Gabriela for these comments and some new ideas to test :)
Giles and Gerry drew attention to advice from Hugh McAllister here (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=2921.0).
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And my thanks as well to all. Now to find a parrot for rent.
johnw
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Can't you eat the berries yourself? I have seen lots of germination of several species (especially tomato!) in human stool. (I know it because we had an old fashioned outhouse at our cabin.)
Just kiding - but I think it works ;)
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Yes, I need a parrot.
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Mr Google returned some interesting results for the search term "bird gut transit time". The results suggest 30-60 minutes would be a reasonable time to soak seeks in vinegar to replicate the avian gut environment.
Perhaps considerably less Matt - after all most of the gut is not "stomach" and therefore not acid. Would be interesting to experiment but quite possibly 10 minutes or so would do it.
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Yes, I need a parrot.
I think a parrot might crunch up the seeds a bit John!
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just received from a friend :
http://www.backyardnature.net/birdguts.htm (http://www.backyardnature.net/birdguts.htm)
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OK, this needs an experiment! I have gathered some berries from a very nice rowan along the road from our house. The tree keeps its leaves until November and they turn a beautiful red. It also holds onto its berries until Christmas - the blackbirds ignore this tree, but strip all the other ones in September. One autumn, this rowan was covered in waxwings, they seemed to like the berries.
Now, the experiment: 4 pots of seeds - berries squished in a paper towel to extract the individual seeds, then
1. seeds wiped clean of pulp with a paper towel, but not rinsed.
2. seeds washed and soaked. The soaking water will be changed each day for 7 days (this is my usual method for sorbus).
3. seeds soaked for 1 hour in lemon juice.
4. seeds soaked in vinegar (for one hour), white wine vinegar actually as it's what I have in the cupboard, apart from the expensive balsamic which I am not prepared to squander on an experiment.
There will be 14 seeds in each pot. The pots will be placed outside in the open, where they will be exposed to frost.
It will be interesting to see if these mild acids will have the same effect as a bird's digestive system.
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Carolyn, how long are you going to soak the Sorbus seeds in the vinegar?
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Sorry, Fred, 1 hour, same as the lemon juice.
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Excellent! Will be fascinating to see the results of your trial, Carolyn.
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Update on my sorbus seed experiment: two or three seeds have germinated out of the 14 in each pot by mid-March. I was going to photograph the seedlings, but a slug had them for breakfast today! I will try to be faster with the camera if any more germinate this spring.
It would appear that soaking, whether in water, lemon juice or vinegar, makes little difference to germination. Just as many seedlings germinated in the pot where the fruit pulp was merely removed but not soaked.
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That's reassuring, Carolyn. I collected berries from a number of Sorbus species last autumn but only removed the pulp and washed the seeds in plain water before sowing. Those slugs are quick off the mark!
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Yes , Matt, it was lucky that those seedlings were not anything too precious. I have some nice glaucidium palmatum just germinating. I think I will need to resort to a few slug pellets.