Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Alpines => Topic started by: Jan Jeddeloh on September 04, 2016, 04:06:05 AM
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For months my husband has spent weekends slaving away on my new greenhouse/alpine house. The greenhouse is 8’x 12’ white aluminum and it’s fully wired. I’ve got a fan, multiple outlets and lighting for evening work. And he also put in a hose bib so I’ll have water. I have two roof vents and three side vents on each side. The side vents can actually be slid off for even better ventilation. So yeah, the whole thing is pretty snazzy. I’ll try to attach some pictures at the end of this post so you can see what I’m talking about but can’t guarantee I’ll be successful.
So my plan is to put a plunge bed on one side and a regular bench on the other. The legs for both will be pressure treated 4’x6’ lumber left over from the partial deck remove. Bench top will probably be about 24” deep made out of wire shelving or some such. It’s less an issue than the plunge bed.
But before we even get to the plunge bed we have to deal with the floor. Right now it has some gravel on it but we’d need to add more. So my floor options are:
1) Gravel alone.
2) Gravel with a paver path down the middle.
3) All pavers. My husband would like to use at least some pavers so the bench legs could rest on them. Size he prefers is “whatever’s easiest”. He also thinks this would look neater.
So does anyone have any opinions on the flooring issue?
Next up is the plunge beds. Pressure treated wood comes in the following sizes: 5.5”, 7.5”, 9.5” and 11.5” x 2” (more or less). I’d like to use the shortest depth that is reasonable because sand is heavy to haul in and expensive to buy. I realize that in an ideal world 11.5” would be ideal but wow would that be work and so expensive. One of my local friends said you also should buy somewhat coarse sand and wash it. I keep thinking of the work and the weight of wet sand. Compromises will need to happen somewhere. So what is the wisdom of the SRGC?
The plunge beds will be lined with pond liner or some kind of plastic. If someone has a better idea I’m all ears. I also need to put in some kind of drain. I know there is information on the website and elsewhere on line on how to do this but I’d love to hear others’ experience, especially experiences of the “don’t do this” variety.
Right now I’m envying you Brits who can just buy plunge beds. Can’t do that on my side of the Atlantic.
Thanks for your help,
Jan
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I recommend paving the floor, or at least under the staging legs or you will have problems levelling the staging, especially when fully loaded. Full paving is sweepable, too, unlike gravel which will eventually need removing and cleaning of all the fine dust/compost that builds up in it over time.
The depth of the plunge depends on the size of the pot you want to use - ideally you need 2-3cm of sand under the deepest pot. I use sharp builders' sand (the gritty kind not the bright orange stuff) and put it straight into the plunge without washing. I've had no problems. My plunges vary from 20cm to 15cm in the various greenhouses, depending on the contents. I lined mine with pond liner, lipped over the sides and secured with a strip of wood the same width as the thickness of the sides nailed onto the top edge.
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Whizzy greenhouse, by the way - have fun!
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How we constructed our staging (20 years ago and still going strong)
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Note the cross-ties on the long lengths to stop the sides bowing out under the weight of the sand. The end plunge grades from 15cm deep at the ends to 20cm deep in the middle as it was used as a planted bed before we moved it from our old house, and it was designed to drain from the lowest point. That's a point! it was 10 years at our old place before we brought it here - 30 years and still going strong!
The 'islands' extending into the central path were to make best available use of the space, and we had a second plunge at floor level for shade lovers. I like the high plunge as it brings the flowers nearer to the nose, and allows more efficient use of the space beneath.
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like the greenhouse - never seem to see the opening windows in the UK nowadays
thanks Annew for posting pictures of your greenhouse and benching as it is always really interesting for me to see how other people have configured their benching
I put these on photobucket some years ago for another gardening site when we were discussing benching - one of the alpine houses has a 9" deep sand bed on 4" solid concrete blocks - one of the others has 6" deep but these are sat on 6" plastic water pipe - these were cut to exact length with a circular saw - the floor of the building had a metal 'eye' put into it and a length or reinforcing bar was welded to it - they went over this and were then filled with concrete - basically they are not going anywhere.
The benching just sits on top if it. Most of the benching I have has galvanised roof sheeting in the bottom to hold the sand or gravel.
http://s343.photobucket.com/user/RowanCottage/library/BENCHING?sort=3&page=1 (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/RowanCottage/library/BENCHING?sort=3&page=1)
On the north side of the bottom alpine house there are 3 six foot elite frames mated together - these are raised and to be honest I have never used them yet
Please post more pictures of how you progress as I always like to see how things are going
I will be putting a greenhouse/building thread up next year as our plant area has been on hold a bit this year whilst I built a rather large fence near the house
If you like "raised" beds have a look at this one I built some years ago to get rid of and awkward bank that was no use for anything - I have still not skinned the front with stone as that will be my first job when I retire..........
http://s343.photobucket.com/user/RowanCottage/slideshow/Retaining%20Wall?sort=2 (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/RowanCottage/slideshow/Retaining%20Wall?sort=2)
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Here is my new 12ft x 8ft greenhouse which I am just completing.
I have six inch deep pressure treated benches lined with polythene (which I have not trimmed off yet) I have deper benches in my other greenhouses but find it is not necessary.
The benches are on a solid floor which is essential because each bench contains 14 - 25 kg bags of sand apart from the pots.
I use builders sand which has been satisfactory for the twenty years I have been growing in clay pots. I find it holds the water better than sharp sand and therefore the pots do not need as much watering.
I fill the space under the benches with sand and use it to store plants dormant over the winter. It is not usable as growing space because it is too dark with the bench above.
This one is housing my crocus collection,spring flowering on the left and autumn on the right
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Very smart!
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Mine was similar to Anne's built from 6" x 1" pressure treated gravel boards, but I used 2 stacked to give a 12" deep box. The box base was 3/4" waterproof ply dropped into the box and supported on battens round the sides and across, leaving a 9" deep plunge. My legs were angle iron fence posts inside the box and bolted through. Pond liner inside lapped and stapled around the top, covering over the iron leg fixings. A 2' x 4' plunge needs 4 legs, longer needs additional legs and the deep plunge needs something to stop bellying as Anne says, although intermediate angle iron legs are strong enough to control this from underneath. This may not happen with a shallow plunge. Try and avoid heavy timbers or masonry if you want to make maximum use of the under bench space, and of course the width of the greenhouse. Ordinary plumbing wastes are fine as a drain. I used sharp sand too.
I had one of these outside the greenhouse for some years too although never made much use of the plunge in that really.
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So based on the unanimous advice on the forum we now have a large stack of pavers waiting for installation. We still don't have enough sand so there will be some more Home Depot (big box hardware store) in our future. Home Depot is sort of my husband's home away from home.
My plan is to have a storage shelf underneath the plunge for supplies. The height is going to be custom for me, a 5'2" shorty and even though it will take up space we'll use the 4x6" posts for legs. It's either use them on site or pay to dispose of them. I suppose I could box some of it in like Anne did for shade lovers and dormant summer bulbs. I'd also considered some big sand filled tubs for dormant bulbs. I will be getting some 70% shade cloth for the summer but even with that and a fan I expect the greenhouse to be pretty hot in summer. It's in full, blazing sun. Temperatures of 30C aren't unusual around here and most summers we even get a handful of days around 35C.
I'm leaning toward 2x8" or the 2x10" sides for the plunge bed. I know erythroniums like a deep root run because I always find the bulbs at the bottom of the pots. Of course this year most of my erythronium bulbs seem to have either desiccated or rotted. I was repotting them today and discovered the rotten or desiccated remains. I was used to shady growing conditions where the pots stayed pretty cool. Shade is pretty much an non-existent commodity at this new place. I think I'm going to need to learn to grow a lot of things all over again. Hope the carnage isn't too bad along the way.
I'm really happy to hear that everyone has used whatever cheap sand they could lay their hands on. I really wasn't fancying a search for special sand. The simpler we keep this the sooner it will be done.
Jan
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5'2"
Small but perfectly formed, Jan! :)
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Actually anymore I'd say I'm "fatly formed"! My husband is 6'2" so I always have to make sure he doesn't build/place something too high. I'm described as "vertically challenged" by the rest of my family (daughter 5'7", son 6', husband 6'2".
Jan
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Don't tell anyone - but I'm a practically spherical 5 ft 3inches ..... and a half! ;D ;D
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Both taller than me. It is an advantage, as I know, to have a husband over 6ft! No point in using the top shelves of cupboards otherwise for a start!
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Finding plunge outside UK can be impossible so i selfmade mines.
I've used reinforced aluminium foil bent with a rented machine. For the corners i used pop rivet, pre-drilling holes.
The cost price is +/- 30€ per tub 2.2mx0.9m. Since, i've learned how to weld aluminium and outside i now use this tub for my seedling pots with a more important height.
This aluminium can support 2.6t/sqm. I fill the bed with pumice to reduce weight on the cedar benches.
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Very impressive!
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So the greenhouse proper is done except for some caulking outside. The floor is done and looks great.
The next project is the plunge bed. Current plan is 8" (20cm) deep which is really 7.5" (18 cm) with a 24" reach. I'm not sure how tall to have the top of the plunge. I'm only 5'2" so I don't want to make it too tall. What height do others have relative to their body? Hip, waist or other height? I've got one shot to do this right so I don't want to screw it up. We plan to slope it very slightly to one end for drainage and install a drain. You know that fancy gardener's drain also known as a bucket. Actually we'll have a hole in the wood and a drain in the plastic lining. Not sure if I should just use garden variety plastic you can buy at any home DIY store or spring for pond liner. Has anyone had problems with the DIY type plastic? Cheaper is better if it works.
I know Anne Wright is following this thread so I'll just ask this question here in case she didn't get my email. Will you ship seed to the US with a Small Lots of Seed Permit? Your seed list has given me severe seed list especially for the narcissus seed. My 94 year old Dad and I went on the AGS Narcissi of the Iberian Peninsula trip this spring and I've been on the prowl for Narcissus triandrus seed or bulbs since.
Jan
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Here's hoping this picture isn't sideways!
[attachimg=1]
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Jan,
I have staging at both hip height and at around waist height. I find the higher ones more comfortable to work at and better for viewing the plants.
Think of it in terms of an office workstation safety assessment:
When seated properly at your desk (with your back straight) the advice is that the top of the desk should be just below and parallel with your forearms when in keyboard position.
Extend this idea to your greenhouse - stand up straight with your elbows tucked in but your hands forward in working position (forearms parallel to the floor - imagine typing on a keyboard). I think the top of your plunge (plant height) should come to just below your forearms so get someone to measure this distance. Then set up a temporary table at this height (just a couple of stacked cardboard boxes perhaps) and try repotting a plant on top of it to see how you find it.
If too low you will be bending forwards all the time. Too high and you will find yourself hunching your shoulders to raise your arms up. Neither is comfortable or good for you.
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So if your plunge bed top is just below bent forearm level then wouldn't you want regular greenhouse shelving to be about 4" (10 cm) lower if you usually used 4" pots? In other words your bent forearm level minus the height of your usual pot. Once the pots are filled your work area for weeding, seed sowing etc would then be at the right height. I'm asking because one half of the greenhouse will just have standard benching.
I have both lower back and upper back issues so I'd like to get this right. I know I hunch up my shoulders when I do stuff because my pilates instructor is always trying to get me to relax my shoulders.
Thanks for your advice. My husband wants me to get this figured out by late Saturday afternoon because he wants to get this damned project done.
Jan
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My husband wants me to get this figured out by late Saturday afternoon because he wants to get this damned project done.
Jan
Wow - A husband itching to get a project completed!
It's looking great so far.
I replied to your email about seeds.
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Here is my new 12ft x 8ft greenhouse which I am just completing.
If I was to redo my green house I'd do it like yours Tony. I have a plunge across the back but it means the far corners are too difficult to reack
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If this helps the top of my plunge is just level with my hipbone 41 inches and I can reach easily to the back of the beds without bending too far. I used to be 6ft 2 inches but may have shrunk a little now with age. My plunges are 3 feet wide which is just comfortable. If you make them lower you can reach further but more bending is involved which is not what I wanted. Far easier to be comfortable. Any wider and the passage down the middle is too narrow.
Mark is correct about a bed across the end. In one of my other houses I have done this and cannot reach the corners.I found this out when it was done and it was a pretty stupid decision.
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and if I was doing it again I'd do what Tony has done by making the plunges wider. Mine are 30 inches/76cm wide but the walkway is 36inches/90cm. I don't need a 36 inch walkway. I'd make my beds 36 inches leaving a 24 inch/60cm walkway AND lose the end bed having two straight plunges
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very tempted to remake them next summer. I got someone to make welded frames to hold the plunges but like the idea of breeze block 'towers' and paving stones sitting on top
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Time for an update on the new alpine house/greenhouse.
The framework for the plunge bed is done! All it need is a hole drilled for drainage, the liner installed and the drain put in the liner. And let's not forget sand. I bought pond liner which is pretty heavy stuff and three drains, one for each bay. We'll have to cut holes in the liner to clamp on the drains. Those drains weren't cheap, over $8 apiece. My husband hopes to get this done this weekend because we'd both really like this project done.
Here are some pictures of the progress so far. You'll note that my husband builds to last. The thing will survive a 9.0 earthquake which is actually what "they" say we make get here on the west coast. He was going to make it 10" deep but screwed up and bought 8" boards. I didn't have the heart to make him take them back.
Edit : see the pictures, rotated by Mark in following post
I'll post more as things progress further.
Jan
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Sorry about the unrotated picture. Taken with my iPhone and apparently if you just rotate it on you computer it doesn't "stick".
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rotated for you
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Thank you Mark! How'd you do that or where did you find the instructions?
Forgot to mention my plunges are only about 26" (40 cm) wide because I have short little arms and I have to be able to reach across to shut the windows.
Jan
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No problem. I used photoshop.
You can rotate photos on your phone also
www.imore.com/how-to-crop-straighten-rotate-photos-iphone-ipad (http://www.imore.com/how-to-crop-straighten-rotate-photos-iphone-ipad)
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Jan:
You bring up another issue that I ran into with the greenhouse I built.
there are growing benches in front of the windows.
The awning windows are control by a crank which is located at the bottom of the window.
In order to open and close in mild weather I have to get down on my achy knees are reach in under the benches to open and close.
In retrospect I would have tried to have some other system organized where it would have been easier to control the windows.
I'm thinking a crank mechanism like you would see on a merchants awning .
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Time for a follow up post. I'd wanted to do this earlier but I was having trouble posting pictures but I think I have that figured out.
My plunge beds are up and running! Everything seems pretty happy too so I have great hopes for the future. Gardeners always have great hopes for the future. The liner is pond liner and seems to work well. I have a couple of corners I should have folded more carefully but the plants won't care.
The plant blooming in the front is Scilla lingulata.
[attach=1]
For a drainage system my husband installed the drain with a plug as seen below.
[attach=2]
Inside the plunge bed we installed a piece of PVC pipe with holes drilled into it. To keep sand from plugging the holes I stuffed the pipes with polyfill (the innards of stuffed animals) and, for good measure, made a sleeve of interfacing (sorry don't know the British term but it's used to provide body to fabrics).
[attach=3]
I figure it's good for everyone who takes on this kind of adventure to post how they did it so the next person can see all the options.
Jan
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Oops. I accidentally posted a picture of my tissue culture jankea (see other thread).
So here's the picture of the plunge bed in action.
[attach=1]
Jan
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Looking good Jan.
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Looks great Jan. I hope you're not running out of space already ;) ;D
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Just seen this interesting post on building the sand plunge, can someone comment on the actual way of keeping the sand moist?
I'm building a small plunge bed and not sure how to keep the sand moist, do you flood it, and after drain it or just moisten it.
Do you water the individual pots also.
I'm hoping to use clay pots, do you expose the rim or bury the pot completely. should you use all the same size pots or can you mix different sizes?
Any additional information appreciated.
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Arie
There are so many variables involved however in general -
using clay pots I used to sink them so the bottom of the rim sat on the surface of the sand this keeps the neck of the plants dry but the roots moist.
Watering will depend on the type of plant but the sand should be soaked and allowed to drain then each pot watered dependent on type of plant, weather, season, compost, etc.... Using clay pots and with some plants after the first watering the exchange of moisture though the pot wall could be enough moisture.
Trial and error along with careful observation of the plants will be the best way to learn what is best in your conditions and that is the fun (and frustrations) of gardening.
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Thanks Ian, and yes experimenting is all the fun.
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Here tomorrow will be buildt up my new greenhouse for Camelias and protecting special bulbs against hardy frosts! I have seen in the gardens of othe snowdrop-fans wonderful greenhouses with many snowdrops and other flowers!
The point-fundaments are finished.
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the montage of the greenhouse from the Palmen companie starts jet!
With fun I look forward the finishing of the 20 m2 greenhouse!
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The frame is finished and the shed is installated. After 9 hours the greenhouse is compete!
Tomorrow I can set in the first plants!
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"The frame is finished and the shed is installated. After 9 hours the greenhouse is compete!
Tomorrow I can set in the first plants!"
Congratulations on the completion of your wonderful new greenhouse; may you enjoy great success growing plants in it.
Sally
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it was quickly erected, very good job.
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Also congratulations from me to your greenhouse, wish you always a good time
with your plants in it.
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"The frame is finished and the shed is installated. After 9 hours the greenhouse is compete!
Tomorrow I can set in the first plants!"
Congratulations on the completion of your wonderful new greenhouse; may you enjoy great success growing plants in it.
Sally
thank You, Sally, I also was very surprised, how quick the two monteurs of the glashouse company Palmen near Aachen buildt up this 20 m2 house! Now I started to bring all the plants, which need winterprotection, amoung them 7 big Camelias, 60 new Galanthus varieties and a lot of other spring-bulbs, which I need for the "1. Frühlingsblüher-show in Torgau" in 9. and 10.3. 2019!
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it was quickly erected, very good job.
Yes, Yann, I am very glad to have now better possibilities to protect new plants during winterweather. This year I collected for my Snowdropgarden ca 60 new varieties, many of them wild varieties, as G. krasnovii and G reginae-olgae from Korfu!
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Also congratulations from me to your greenhouse, wish you always a good time
with your plants in it.
Thank You, Rudi, for Your congratulation, it makes a lot of fun to finish the 20 m2 glashouse and to bring the plants inside for winterprotection! For our "1. Torgauer Frühlingsblüherschau" in 9. und 10. März 2019 I prepared more than 100 pots with different flowerbulbs and hope, many of them flowers begin of march! (see: www.fv-laga-torgau.de (http://www.fv-laga-torgau.de)). This afternoon I placed 7 bigs Camelias, which I got as gift from a good gardener, also inside the glashouse!
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Also congratulations from me to your greenhouse, wish you always a good time
with your plants in it.
Two fotos of filling the new glashouse -the first pots of flowerbulbs and seven Camelias with many new buds!
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Your new greenhouse looks great! Is it full yet? If not it will be soon. Plants multiply to fill the available space. That's my theory of gardening anyway.
Jan
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never enough of surface that's a not a theory but reality ;D