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Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: johnw on May 29, 2016, 03:21:44 PM

Title: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on May 29, 2016, 03:21:44 PM
I posted pix of this arisaema a few years ago and the closest we got to an id was A. heterophyllum.  However it is in flower right now, too early for heterophyllum so back to Gusman's book but Section Tortuosa left us baffled.  By sheer chance in the index I saw the name A. yamatense ssp. sugimotoi and recalled Philip McD had grown that one in the 90's and given one to us before he moved west. We lost that but apparently he had also given the original to a friend from whom we got this one.  Tough as nails and very prolific. So Arisaema yamatense ssp. sugimotoi it is.  Photos of the original today just a block away from us.

johnw  - 14c & sunny, just right!
 
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Maggi Young on May 29, 2016, 05:46:06 PM
Rather stylish looking plant. Tough and prolific completes a perfect description,  doesn't it?!
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Brian Ellis on May 29, 2016, 07:48:12 PM
What attractive colouration.  We enjoyed all the arisaema in the woodland at Cluny House, very spectacular!
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on May 29, 2016, 07:59:54 PM
What is odd is when I was given permission to dig some of the original, that after a very dry summer, there was water just a few inches below the corms.  Odd the corms would tolerate conditions such as that.  I don't know how common is in the UK but will try to get seeds over in the autumn.

Brian  - I hope you took pix of the Cluny arisaemas.

john
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on May 29, 2016, 08:51:43 PM
Very nice Arisaema, and also prolific! - quite a combination for an Arisaema. The leaf looks a bit like heterophyllum indeed but otherwise very different. A. heterophyllum is just showing up here and doesn't offset (rarely); no seeds as well. Probably I need a second one.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Brian Ellis on May 30, 2016, 09:27:57 AM
Brian  - I hope you took pix of the Cluny arisaemas.

Have no fear, 'The Norfolk Eye' is processing hundreds of pictures from the weekend so you will see them!
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: David King on May 30, 2016, 09:47:40 AM
As Brian said I am ploughing through nearly 760 pictures but have taken a break to process the Arisaemas at Cluny.  Unfortunately there were no labels on these.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on May 30, 2016, 01:36:45 PM
Fabulous - A. griffithii I would say, maybe a variety.
Besides Gusman book, this on-line ID key (Gusman & others.) is not bad at all: http://botu07.bio.uu.nl/Arisaema-L/key.htm (http://botu07.bio.uu.nl/Arisaema-L/key.htm)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Brian Ellis on May 30, 2016, 04:11:52 PM
Fabulous indeed, there were clumps all over the garden!
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on June 01, 2016, 02:44:01 PM
David/Brian

Sensational!  I always thought griffithii was a bit more sinister looking than that though the leaves look to be correct.  Maybe it's when it first surfaces unfurling.

Gabriela  - Has this one been hardy for you?

And this lovely wilsonii? Ian showed in his Bulb Log does it have any hardiness?

johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Maggi Young on June 01, 2016, 03:07:42 PM
Our query Wilsonii seems very tough, John.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on June 02, 2016, 03:02:45 AM
David/Brian

Sensational!  I always thought griffithii was a bit more sinister looking than that though the leaves look to be correct.  Maybe it's when it first surfaces unfurling.
Gabriela  - Has this one been hardy for you?

And this lovely wilsonii? Ian showed in his Bulb Log does it have any hardiness?
johnw

John,
One that looks as you say, more sinister, is A. griffithii var pradhanii. I never got too far away with it to be able to assess the hardiness. I tried it twice from tubers of dubious quality. Maybe started from a seed... but I kind of doubt it given its wild distribution.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on June 14, 2016, 09:10:58 PM
Last year we were worried that a contorted Arisaema might be viral.  By summer it was fine.  Reply 446 through 455 here - {url]http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=950.435[/url]  It had been grown as A. sikokianum from Garden North seed but Wim's Arisaema guru thought it was a marked-leaf form of pure A. amurense.

Here it is almost a year later at the Lurker's and I wonder if all still agree it is amurense itself.

johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on June 18, 2016, 01:51:24 AM
I would also say it's A. amurense John, but don't count on my ID 100%. A. sikokianum was usually masqueraded by either serratum or amurense; once I also ended up with triphyllum ??? Anyway, it is a nice silver leaf form.

And my Dancing crane Arisaema (A. heterophyllum) has started to dance  :) The way the foliage unfolds is what I like most about them. I missed the beginning this year and of course, it doesn't face the right direction (do they ever?)

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on June 19, 2016, 11:51:01 PM
Here's another one dancing in Nova Scotia, Arisaema dahaiense.  It took 5 days to fully open.


john
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Lesley Cox on June 20, 2016, 12:14:54 AM
I love the oily look on the A. griffithii. Just where the light catches them I suppose.
Title: Arisaema 2016 - new species described.
Post by: Maggi Young on June 30, 2016, 02:53:12 PM
New arisaema species described!

From Pascal Bruggeman , via Facebook:
Dear all, after procrastinating for a while I finally published one of the species new to science I found during fieldwork in NE India, the publication is free to download here:
 
Arisaema gracilentum, a new species of Arisaema (Araceae) from NE India     Author: P. Bruggeman
   
Source: Blumea - Biodiversity, Evolution and Biogeography of Plants (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nhn/blumea;jsessionid=7vukq2t9aj7nn.victoria)
Publisher:
Naturalis Biodiversity Center (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nhn;jsessionid=7vukq2t9aj7nn.victoria)

Download from this page: 
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nhn/blumea/pre-prints/content-nbc_blumea_0364 (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nhn/blumea/pre-prints/content-nbc_blumea_0364)

And this is Aaron Floden's
illustration of this species:

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on July 03, 2016, 03:43:26 PM
     We collected fresh seed of Arisaema kiushianum & A. ringens in BC last January and sowed them immediately under lights.  The lasted until mid -April then all gradually collapsed.  I've set the pots outdoors in the hope they will resurrect, I hesitate to dig around to check on them.  Is this a common occurrence and if so should I dry them off or let them take the weather?  The former I'd hate to lose as it is a rarity in these parts.
[size=78%]johnw[/size]
 
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on July 03, 2016, 06:51:25 PM
     We collected fresh seed of Arisaema kiushianum & A. ringens in BC last January and sowed them immediately under lights.  The lasted until mid -April then all gradually collapsed.  I've set the pots outdoors in the hope they will resurrect, I hesitate to dig around to check on them.  Is this a common occurrence and if so should I dry them off or let them take the weather?  The former I'd hate to lose as it is a rarity in these parts.
[size=78%]johnw[/size]
 

All Arisaema sp. I started under lights (usually in February) will go dormant by June (in the best of case). I usually keep the pots outside and water only once in a while. Once I forgot about a consanguineum pot, it dry out completely and they were still fine next year (in fresh mix).
I also tried to 'cheat' one year and placed them in the fridge, in the idea to give a 'winter' and have them growing again by August, but I manage to froze the fargesii batch so I won't do it anymore. A. concinnum was fine. (this was the Arisaema sent by B. Porteous as a 'very tall' one to the ORGS seedex one year).

Good luck with ringens! I never got seeds true to name.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Carolyn on July 03, 2016, 11:27:09 PM
Gabriela,
I'm glad to read that your seedlings go dormant by June - mine have done that too. I thought I had mistreated them, because the mature arisaemas in the garden are still in full growth, so I expected the seedlings to be too. Mine get much more water than yours I think - I leave them out in an open frame, but they have always come through the winter and grown again.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on July 04, 2016, 12:12:48 AM
Thanks for that Gabriela & Carolyn, I'm not so panic-stricken now.  Would it be more advisable to sow in Spring and have them grow till frost?  Then I suppose the question is should the seed be moist-stored or dry-stored - as I've heard some require  - but of which nothing is mentioned in the Arisaema books.

johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on July 04, 2016, 07:01:21 PM
I don't know about moist stored Arisaema seeds John; never had any and never read about this requirement somewhere. But, since there are so many species, who knows...

For the ones that do germinate, in the end maybe it doesn't matter if sown in Jan.-Feb. or later. The most you can make them grow is 5-6 months anyway. The important thing is to water a lot, start fertilizing asap and of course use a good size pot when sowing so the tubers have space to develop (I learned my lesson). I just found them to be very good growers under lights, and can give them the attention that they wouldn't get later in the spring.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Cfred72 on July 05, 2016, 03:33:48 PM
Plus classique, Arisaema flavum

[attach=1]

Otherwise, I also had in May Arisaema triphyllum 'Jack in the Pipe'

[attach=2] [attach=3]

Also useful arisaema

[attach=4]

This Arisaema has a beautiful foliage, very remarkable in an overview

[attach=5]
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Cfred72 on July 05, 2016, 03:44:30 PM
Last year we were worried that a contorted Arisaema might be viral.  By summer it was fine.  Reply 446 through 455 here - {url]http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=950.435[/url]  It had been grown as A. sikokianum from Garden North seed but Wim's Arisaema guru thought it was a marked-leaf form of pure A. amurense.

Here it is almost a year later at the Lurker's and I wonder if all still agree it is amurense itself.

johnw

At home Arisaema amurense flowering in April. the foliage is different and more red in the cap.

[attach=1] [attach=2] [attach=3] [attach=4] [attach=5]
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on July 07, 2016, 07:04:37 PM
You have beautiful Arisaema plants Fred! I like Arisaema utile, it is not hardy enough to try it here.

Just a note for A. triphyllum - is commonly called Jack-in the-pulpit  ;)
A. amurense is quite a variable species and in Canada all species will flower 1-2 months later than in warmer areas.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on July 12, 2016, 07:01:08 PM
Yet another Arisaema mystery.   This one came up in a pot of ciliatum one year and as a young plant was tentatively identified as A. consanguineum. As it matures it is becoming problematic yet again. Any thoughts?


Leaflet thread tips  - 100mm long
Leaflet excluding thread tips - 44cm long
Leaflet width at widest point - 13cm wide
Leaves tip to tip - 90cm wide
Plant height  - 1.3m high


john
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on July 12, 2016, 07:08:44 PM
And more of the same plant.


The flower on the main large plant is long past and seed is setting now. The flower shown is likely on a corm that was attached to the mother corm.


johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on July 12, 2016, 07:10:14 PM
Last two shots of the brute including the corm in 2014. It was the corm that alerted us to it as a stray.


john
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on July 12, 2016, 09:30:32 PM
Last two shots of the brute including the corm in 2014. It was the corm that alerted us to it as a stray.
john

It looks very much like A. consanguineum to me John. Tubers can become gigantic if they last few years. Also, it can be very variable as the length of threads and size of the leaves, height....
If the fruit stalk will start bending down later on, then for sure it is consanguineum. Good genes :)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: pfirsich48 on July 13, 2016, 11:21:39 AM
Looks a lot like A. taiwanense
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on July 13, 2016, 11:51:24 PM
A. taiwanense has a purple spathae and the spadix appendage is also different, very blunt.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on July 14, 2016, 01:37:09 PM
Coincidentally the nystery Arisaema was found in a pot of A. taiwanense but was decidedly different including the corm itself.  We thought it might be consanguineum from a friend and from what Gabriela say that seems to be the logical identification.


thanks all,


john
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: pfirsich48 on July 15, 2016, 01:05:38 PM
Although they bloom at very different times is it possible that it could be a hybrid?
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on July 15, 2016, 04:15:21 PM
Although they bloom at very different times is it possible that it could be a hybrid?


I think it is a simple case of a mix-up when planting the corms as it is now resembling other consanguineums from a friend.


johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on July 26, 2016, 10:40:15 PM
Yesterday I decided it was time to identify two unlabelled very late Arisaemas.  Both identical in leaf, first no problem as first leaflet sticking straight up in the air so Arisaema consanguineum.  Second identical in leaf but in flower a twofor. Hiow does  A. 'Amorous Embrace' sound?


johnw - +18c & showery.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on July 28, 2016, 12:31:53 AM
Picked up an "Arisaema speciosum" yesterday in the Annapolis Valley.  It was the only one showing any signs of growth in the nursery.  With the warmth here it started to unfurl overnight and looks to me like yet another consanguiseum with one solitary leaflet straight up in the air and many more to unfurl ruling out speciosum.  There's hope it has a dark flower from what little we can see.  I presume consang. is the only one that does the erect solitary leaf?


johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on July 28, 2016, 03:18:20 AM
What a malformation in the double Arisaema John! I don't know if it will repeat next year; I had a trifoliate ciliatum which didn't.

And, no to the last question, ciliatum at least, also does the 'solitary leaf signal'. You'll see when it opens which one, seems to be a good purple colour.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on July 28, 2016, 02:08:16 PM
What a malformation in the double Arisaema John! I don't know if it will repeat next year; I had a trifoliate ciliatum which didn't.


Thanks Gabriela.  The doubling of the A. flower was likely a one time event and I would be very surprised if it repeats.  There must be something in the air around here as this Rhododendron dichroanthum ssp. apodectum I pollinated earlier this month was a double as well.


john - 22c + 81% humidity
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on August 03, 2016, 02:12:32 AM
Last week I stopped by to check a place with a population of large &  A. triphyllum  specimens (leaflets more +/- 25  cm long); also good stems colour - first image.
I stumbled upon one plant with two lateral leaflets lobed – reminding of the A. triphyllum ssp. quinatum /A. quinatum).
Anyone else has seen/grows similar forms of A. triphyllum (with lobed leaflets)?



Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Afloden on August 05, 2016, 12:38:07 PM
I've seen forms of triphyllum with lobed leaflets, but they have never persisted in cultivation with the lobes. Quinatum is a very different plant that flowers nearly a full month after triphyllum from the same latitude and the spadix is tapered and curved.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on August 05, 2016, 07:26:18 PM
Thanks Aaron, I know is not A. quinatum –  I've seen herbarium specimens on the Atlas of Florida Plants (if someone else is interested  there are also plant pictures) - http://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/specimendetails.aspx?PlantID=670 (http://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/specimendetails.aspx?PlantID=670)

I find it exciting to see variations in the wild – they keep open the possibility ;) Surely some won’t come true from seeds but it doesn’t matter. After my posting, I found a herbarium specimen of A. triphyllum var. pusillum with the same lobed leaf – on the Virtual Herbarium of Chicago region. I have to check it in the spring when flowering.
http://symbiota4.acis.ufl.edu/seinet/vplants/portal/taxa/index.php?taxon=Arisaema+triphyllum&formsubmit=Search+Terms (http://symbiota4.acis.ufl.edu/seinet/vplants/portal/taxa/index.php?taxon=Arisaema+triphyllum&formsubmit=Search+Terms)

I’m very grateful for the digitized herbarium projects available on-line today.

Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: johnw on August 06, 2016, 01:27:51 AM
re: the Arisaema bought as A. speciosum, pix in Reply 35 above


Yes it had a single erect leaflet upon unfurling but now I wonder if this could be a concinnum?


Atacama-like conditions here, less than 1.5" of rain since May and has been warm since the last week of June.


john
Title: Re: Arisaema 2016
Post by: Gabriela on August 06, 2016, 06:51:01 PM
re: the Arisaema bought as A. speciosum, pix in Reply 35 above
Yes it had a single erect leaflet upon unfurling but now I wonder if this could be a concinnum?
Atacama-like conditions here, less than 1.5" of rain since May and has been warm since the last week of June.
john

Can I have Mojave-like for Ontario then John? :D
The mouth margins are not recurved enough to be consanguineum, so you may be right! Congrats.
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