Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Ed Alverson on February 26, 2008, 02:45:08 AM
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I don't see a thread for people to post their 2008 Erythronium photos, so I thought I would start one. After Ian's inspiring Bulb Log series of the past few weeks, I'm suspect that there is lots of interest.
I don't yet have any erythroniums in flower, but the flower buds are showing on several species I have growing in the open ground. They are E. hendersonii, E. helenae, and E. tuolumnense. Erythronium multiscapoideum is also an early flowering species, maybe someone else already has it in flower by now? It sounds like some of the Eurasian species are also early bloomers.
We had a good long cold spell last month so the flowering season is probably a bit delayed compared to a "normal" year (whatever that is).
Ed
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The foliage on the hendersonii is almost as nice as the flowers. It annoys me a bit that the hendersonii are the first to show their flowers but seem to take ages to actually flower, some of the others overtake them. Here the Erythroniums are in exactly the same stage.
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It is interesting to see the stage of your Erythroniums Ed, as Susan says they are at almost exactly the same stage as ours.
Susans observation on the slow growth of E. hendersonii form appearing to flowering is one of the things I have been watching.
The extreme is found in E montanum - it is always the last to appear through the ground and open its flowers but it is the first to set seed and retreat to dormancy. Obviously the have evolved in areas that have different growing conditions and most E. montanum has a very short growing season in its habitat so its rush to perform.
The only flower that I have out just now is E caucasicum plus a very early form of E. dens canis that I got from Brian Wilson is just about to flower for the first time from seed.
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And here is that early flowering Erythronium dens canis.
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The only flower that I have out just now is E caucasicum.
My E. caucasicum is also out, the stem is extending now and the flower has just cleared the earth.
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This is how my E. multiscapoideum cliftonii looked about a week ago - it has developped nicely since.
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a 'Pink Perfection' from Leonid Bondarenko
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That's a little gem Arthur.
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I am very glad that I discovered Leonid Bondarenko on the Forum. All his bulbs have been a great success, ranging over Trillium, Erythronium, Crocus, Iris, Colchicum, Scilla and Merendra.
Have ordered many more this year.
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Ian,
Love that caucasicum, and the dens canis is particularly special. Those dark anthers are so showy, particularly on such an elegant flower. Beautiful!
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In 2004 I bought 8 bulbs of Erythronium dens-canis from Janis Ruksans.
One flowered last year, and two different ones are flowering now.
This is Lilac Wonder. The two flowers that are first to open have
started to become double.
Is this to be expected? The catalogue says it has a brown centre, but
the doubling makes that difficult to see.
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We've had a rather cold and wet winter so the flowering season seems behind schedule (though probably just close to the long term average), and finally some of the species that were in bud in mid-February have finally opened. The first flowers on Erythronium tuolumnense actually opened March 9th, and the first Erythronium hendersonii opened March 16th.
In regard to E. tuolumnense, my patch had been growing well vegetatively but not flowering prolifically, so last year I actually fertilized the plants, and this year they responded by producing many more flowers. Most stems have 3 or 4 flowers, one has 5. I really like the yellow color of E. tuolumnense, and the production of vegetative offsets is a good thing, but the form of the flowers tends to be a bit disaapointing, at least with the clones that I have growing. I'd like to get seeds from crossing of the different clones, but my plants don't seem to want to produce good seed (so far). Maybe I need to fertilize more...
Ed
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Ed,
Mine were doing exactly the same thing until a few years ago when I put a slow release commercial "bulb food" fertiliser on them as they surfaced for the year. The following year they flowered beautifully, and each year since. I apply it just as they break the surface each year, so that they have plenty of food to aid this season's flowers as well as plenty of food to set up next year's. I've not seen as obvious a correlation with the other species, but tolumnense definitely responds well. Then again, I grow most of the rest of mine in pots anyway, so they get their food at repotting time (on the years they actually get repotted!). Must check and see how many species I still have after the last few years of drought had them struggling a bit. I think a lot of them didn't come up last spring so I guess they're gone! ::)
Lovely to see the Erythroniums up here, and looking forward to more of them as the season progresses. Thanks everyone. 8)
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Hi Ed. it is interesting to see that your erythroniums are flowering at almost the same time as ours here in Aberdeen.
As for Erythronium tuolumnense, it is often said that it does not flower very freely - I can say I have never found that.
We grow several forms, some from seed and some we got as bulbs, and they all flower well.
They are variable and I have separated out some of the best and most distinct and I raise them in deep boxes and repot them every year - they increas and flower well.
They are not the best erythronium when it comes to setting seeds. Some have never set any seed while the best seed producers are the ones that I have raised from seed.
I will be showing more forms of Erythronium tuolumnense in the bulb log in coming weeks plus I intend to post more erythronium pictures here.
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Erythronium tuolumnense is also flowering here on the S.Coast, though my form (from Mike Salmon) is not as nice as the one in Aberdeen.
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Ian, it is interesting to see how the E. tuolumnense accessions in adjacent boxes look so different. Is this a function of phenology, or do the differences maintain themselves over the season? It would be interesting to see a photo of the same view, taken a couple of weeks from now.
By the way, would I be correct in assuming that you are the source of the seed of this species that I obtained from the SRGC seed exchange? If so, thanks!
Ed
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Ed,
The answer to your question is yes to both.
The flower stem on the short one does lengthen in time but the flowers always start to open at the stage shown. With the taller one the scape lengthens before the flowers open I will as you suggest post a series of pictures to show this.
I think it is a beautiful species but unfortunately the one that is most commonly seen in cultivation over here has rather large leaves so the effect is that there is too much leaf for the flowers. I do grow that one as well but it is my least favourite - it rarely sets seeds but increases very rapidly hence its wide availability.
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I had an overcrowded group of E. Tuolumnense in the garden, that had virtually stopped flowering.
I got them out last year and replanted them - no flowers this year alas, but I'm feeding them well and after reading all the above, I hope for the best next year !
Here's
1) E. Revolutum just coming up - I loooove the foliage - you might recognize it Ian.. ;D
2) E. dens canis
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The first to flower this year.
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Nice foliage Michael - where did you get this one from ??
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It was the only one that germinated from AGS seed.
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Too bad you've only got one - but it does look nice !
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I have lot of seedlings raised from that plant,it is a few years old now and always produces lots of seed.
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And does it pass on those awesome leaves? Definitely worth it for that alone. :D
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That's a nice big clump of E. revolutum, is it "clumping up" by producing offsets? Generally E. revolutum doesn't produce offsets in the wild, but I have seen garden plants locally that do. I wonder if this is characteristic of "Pink Beauty" (and its seedling offspring as well)? Does anyone know more about the history of "Pink Beauty"? I wonder if its history is similar to "White Beauty" which is much more commonly available (and appears to be a form of E. caifornicum).
Ed
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E. Pink beauty clumps up slowly but produces lots of seed that grow like weeds, and all the seedling offspring are identical to the parents including leaf colour.
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Does anyone know more about the history of "Pink Beauty"?
Ed, In his article on Erythronium in AGS Bull. 66(3), 1998 Brian Mathew states that 'Pink Beauty' was selected by Purdy as a "soft pink" variant from Humboldt County, California. Mathew mentions two other pink selections 'Rose Beauty' & 'Jessopp's Pink'. You probably know all this.
There seem to be a number of pink forms (or hybrids?) around in the UK. I have two distinct forms, both of which clump up but neither has particularly striking leaves. Susan (Pitcairn Alpines) lists a pink hybrid which seems to have good leaves. I've seen a number of plants labelled as 'Johnsonii' but none answered to Bolander's original description as quoted by Mathew - "bright pinkish rose outside, inside golden orange deepening to a dark purple".
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There seem to be a number of pink forms (or hybrids?) around in the UK.
I will take some more detailed pics of the flower tomorrow and post them,if the slugs don't eat them.
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Michael,
I've seen 'Rose Beauty' before, but I don't think I recall a 'Pink Beauty'. Definitely has awesome leaves, and that after all is what you see for much longer than the flowers. ;D Very nice, and one definitely to look out for. Thanks for showing us.
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Paul, `Rose Beauty' is a selection of E. dens-canis while `Pink Beauty' is a selection from E. revolutum, probably from the var. johnstonii. As Michael says, it comes true from seed - pretty much - so can be considered a stable strain, rather than a clone.
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Lesley, I think the selection from E.dens-canis is called 'Rose Queen'. I agree that Michael's plant is best regarded as a strain & therefore not strictly entitled to the clonal name.
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You're right Gerry. Mind continuing to rot! :'(
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Lesley,
I was going to say that the 'Rose Beauty' here seems to do too well and multiply too well for it to be a dens canis. I would have thought something more along the lines of revolutum, but not really expert enough to know for sure.
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Gerry, my hybrid came from revolutum as the seed parent and I am pretty sure White Beauty as the other parent. It bulks up like White Beauty, has the ring inside it, is paler than revolutum and has good leaves. I have named it Kinfaun's Pink although it is technically a strain, as there were 2 or 3 identical plants to start with, now they are divisions. I have also a really good hybrid with dark pink flowers also with the ring, it appeared in a bunch of seedlings of a very dark revolum, I am not sure if it is going to be so good at bulking up. Here is a picture of the darker one. Does anyone else feel that erythronium leaves change depending on the growing conditions (light levels) ?
Revolutum and White Beauty don't always flower at the same time for me so I think that is why some years you can get these hybrids and sometimes you don't.
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That's another stunner Susan ! :o
As to your remark on leaves. Light levels have been exceptionally poor here so far this year and I do have the feeling that the markings on the leaves are better than last year (with an equally exceptional sunny and warm early Spring).
By the way, what does 'Kinfaun' stand for ???
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It is very easy to separate Erythronium dens canis from E. revolutum by the leaves alone.
[attach thumb=1]
Dens canis leaves
[attach thumb=2]
Dens canis
Erythronium dens canis leaves have a random marking made up of blotches that do not respect the veins in the leaves.
[attach thumb=3]
The markings of Erythronium revolutum, and all the Western American species with marked leaves, have a pattern that does not cross over the leaf ribs and veins.
[attach thumb=4]
revolutum
[attach thumb=5]
revolutum
[attach thumb=6]
Erythronium revolutum seedling leaves
The markings are very variable from plant to plant and the true extent of the pattern does not appear in seedlings under three years old it is often year five before the full pattern is seen.
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Susan, many thanks for your comments on revolutum hybrids. They have confirmed my belief that my own plants are hybrids, probably with 'White Beauty' since they have the throat ring. They were received as E. revolutum & E. revolutum johnsonii. I think misnaming of the N. American erythroniums is quite common. I have plants of the very handsome E.oregonum 'Sulphur Form' which were received as E.citrinum. I believe Ian has mentioned this particular error in the Log.
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Susan,
I love that flower on your hybrid. Well done!!
Ian,
Stunning leaves. I just love those dark leaved ones, and the pink flowers and dark leaves in the first pic is a lovely combination. All very nice!! 8)
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Maggi, Are all the articles on Erythronium by Ed Alverson still available? I can only find parts 1 & 4.
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Yes, Gerry, they are all there!
This is the index page for the article section;
http://www.srgc.org.uk/monthfeature/content.html
Ed's five part article are those from April to August 2006 (inclusive)
http://www.srgc.org.uk/monthfeature/april2006/content.html = part1
http://www.srgc.org.uk/monthfeature/may2006/content.html =part 2
http://www.srgc.org.uk/monthfeature/june2006/content.html = part3
http://www.srgc.org.uk/monthfeature/july2006/content.html = part4
http://www.srgc.org.uk/monthfeature/august2006/content.html = part5
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Many thanks Maggi.
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A question about E. revolutum hybrids. Susan suspects that one of the parents of her hybrid is E. californicum 'White Beauty' & I had the same thought with regard to my (purchased) hybrids. Both our hybrids have the fat filaments characteristic of both E. revolutum & E. oregonum rather than the thin filaments of E. californicum. Looking at the phylogenetic tree in part 3 of Ed Alverson's article it appears that E. revolutum is rather distantly related to E. californicum but closely related to E. oregonum. I wonder, therefore, whether E. oregonum is a more likely parent. Perhaps Ed has some thoughts on this?
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Here are more details of the plant that I have as Pink beauty
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My first this year Erythronium Helenae
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I've been enjoying the chatter on this thread lately, thanks everybody for posting your photos.
I wonder, therefore, whether E. oregonum is a more likely parent. Perhaps Ed has some thoughts on this?
Gerry has a good point about Susan's darker hybrid. Erythronium californicum has slender filaments while E. revolutum has flattened (dilated) filaments. In addition, E. californicum has white anthers and short stigma lobes (<2 mm long). Susan's plant does look to me like a hybrid with a white flowered species (the pink is somewhat more pale than the pink you would find in straight E. revolutum), but I don't see any influence of E. californicum based on the characters listed above. However, the appearance of Susan's hybrid is consistent with what one would expect from a hybrid of E. revolutum and E. oregonum (particularly the yellow-anthered form, ssp. oregonum). This is because of the flattened filaments, yellow anthers, and longer, recurved stigma lobes. Also, all three species can form the red ring inside the flower, so that characteristic does not help us figure out the parentage.
While I would be reluctant to say with certainty that "White Beauty" is not a parent of Susan's darker hybrid without DNA or other genetic studies, it does look more like revolutum x oregonum than any other hybrid combination. Susan, did you also have E. oregonum flowering in your garden at the time this cross was made? It is certainly a nice hybrid!
By the way, you can find detailed descriptions of all of the North American species of Erythronium on the Flora of North America web site at http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=112169
Ed
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Yes Ed, as it happens oreganum was planted next to the darker revolutums from which I collected the seed although White Beauty was nearby as well. (provided what I call oreganum is actually oreganum!)
I will have a better look once things start to flower here. Also I will look at the other paler hybrid and see if the filaments are different.
The problem in garden situations is everything trys to hybridise and although I generally bulk up by divisions, if I am short on a particular plant I use seed, this is true for revolutums as they don't bulk up so easily. I have also got various hybrids from hendersonii. I have included a picture from last year from what I think is a hendersonii hybrid and also hendersonii. I sow a lot of Ron Ratko's seed as well, but am a bit lax in keeping records of the locations , labels are usually lost by the time they get to flowering size.
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The first Erythroniums in my garden
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That is a nice white form of Erythronium sibericum you have there Hans.
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Wow, Hans!! Spectacular. What's the white one you posted first, with the strong orange centre? And some of the leaves on the ones you posted...... stunning!! :o
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That first white one is the Erythronium sibericum that Ian spoke of, Paul. Just a gorgeous thing.... but they ALL are!
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Ah, so in that case REALLY unusual! ;D
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Ah, so in that case REALLY unusual!
Well, sadly you can't find 'em in every garden centre! :'( :'(
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a gorgeous thing.... but they ALL are!
Indeed they are! Many thanks Hans
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The backdrop to your garden looks just as wonderful as the Erythroniums. Can we see a good picture of that?
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Wonderful collection Hans !
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After three weeks of horrible weather - here's Erythronium multiscapodium cliftonii.
It opened up for the first time in today's sunshine but you can see it took a real battering in the preceeding weeks - even with the flowers still closed :'(
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For Susan some pics taken near my garden
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Hans,
That's some impressive views!!!! :o :D
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Looks a great place to live.
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I bought this plant at a local AGS Group show.
Could someone identify it for me as I do not think it is dens-canis. Not bad for €2.00
Excuse bad photos as plant was hand held at arms length.
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Arthur,
it is E. revolutum.
Look at the pattern on the leaves and the shape of the filaments.
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Arthur, hopefully it is a pleasant surprise that you have E. revolutum rather than E. dens-canis. This isn't the only case I've seen of these two species being confused. The catalog for Brent and Becky's Bulbs, a big mail order bulb retailer in the US, has a photo of E. revolutum in the catalog listing for E. dens-canis. The don't offer E. revolutum, so presumably what they are really selling is E. dens-canis, but I haven't ordered any myself to find out!
Ed
(the clue is in the filaments!)
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Can anyone remember who was selling dens-canis 'Snowflake' last year? Mine are pink!!!
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Arthur, hopefully it is a pleasant surprise that you have E. revolutum rather than E. dens-canis.
Ed
(the clue is in the filaments!)
Ed
Knew it was not dens-canis, hoped it was revolutum, thought it was revolutum, and am delighted that it is. 8) ;D 8)
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Erythronium multiscapoideum 'Cliftonii' in flower this week, such a pretty thing. One flower last year, this year I've got two!!!
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Does anyone have Janis Ruksans '07 catalogue handy? Before I shout at someone about my wrongly supplied Erythronium I want to make sure 'Snowflake' didnt come from Janis
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Does anyone have Janis Ruksans '07 catalogue handy? Being I shout at someone about my wrongly supplied Erythronium I want to make sure 'Snowflake' didnt come from Janis
Mark, I have Janis' 07 catalogue here, and he listed E. dens-canis 'Snowflake'.
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Thanks. I looked at Paul Christians web site and see you can now look back at plants ordered. My info is stored back to '04. This Erythronium isnt listed so I'll have to talk nicely to Janis. Another reason to keep invoices for bulbs something I used to do until I took them out one day for a read
Now how and why did I write being instead of before. Has my recent coffee gone to my brain?
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I bought an Erythronium Snowflake this year. The photo on the plastic
label shows an unmarked white flower with purple anthers and wide
filaments.
The text says "A beautiful western wildflower perfect for semi-shade or
woodland conditions."
The leaves are not dens-canis. I am waiting for the three buds to open.
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We have also had our share of inclement weather lately, with rain, wind, and a bit of snow last week and then 3 clear nights below 25 degrees F. It does seem like the Californians are not as good as standing up to the weather as more northerly residents (just a bit of Oregonian humor...)
I don't have E. multiscapoideum at flowering size (maybe next year) but fellow Californian E. helenae looks rather bedraggled. However, E. tuolumnense still looks good because I had the plants covered by plastic over a hoop frame, which kept them dry and perhaps a bit warmer. Mainly I was trying to improve seed set on the E. tuolumnense, we'll see how that works. Still, the E. t. is nice, having been blooming for over 3 weeks, with 3 to 5 flowers on each stem. Yes, the plants are overly leafy, but not as much as "Pagoda" or "Kondo", which, by the way, haven't yet started flowering in my garden.
Ed
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Here's more - Erythronium hendersonii does well in our climate and soils (a bit clayey and dry in summer). Flowering seems considerably delayed compared to last year, at least a week or more behind. There is a good bit of variation in the intensity of the lavender color in the tepals (here is one that is almost white, except for the tips), but the center of the flower is always a rich purple.
Ed
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Erythronium revolutum has just started to bloom for me. This plant is from seed that was collected in the nearby coastal mountains. One additional way you can distinguish it from other western species is the way that the anthers are tightly pressed to the style, as this picture shows. Sometimes this isn't always obvious (perhaps older flowers will splay out a bit), but if you see this feature in one of the western species, you have E. revolutum.
Our local plants of E. oregonum have the cream-yelow tinge to the tepals of ssp. leucandrum, and many, though not all, flowers have pale yellow or white anthers typical of ssp. leucandrum. This is different from typical ssp. oregonum, which is mostly found at higher elevations in Oregon (or exclusively from Portland northward to Washington and BC).
Ed
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The text says "A beautiful western wildflower perfect for semi-shade or
woodland conditions."
Maybe the label is trying to say that Europe is located west of Asia? Let us know what it turns out to be.
Ed
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Ed,
Wonderful sights of wonderful flowers. Thank you for these pics.
Gerd
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Diane
I got seeds of an Erythronium 'Snowflake' some years ago and it is indeed a true westener. I have not worked out exactly what it is I suspect it is a hybrid but mine has yellow anthers. I will post a picture of it when it flowers - if it has survived the heavy snow we have had over night.
As for the white forms of dens canis I am not convinced that any one knows which plants the various cultivar names refer to so I just call them white forms - but Mark you are justified to be miffed they should be white.
Ed, I find forms of E. helenae to be a bit on the tender side - I can only grow them with some protection - it has the most beautiful scent.
There are a number of helenae hybrids which are good garden plants and our own E. 'Craigton Cream' is perfectly hardy in the garden and it increases well.
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Erythronium hendersonii - easy to grow here
Gerd
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here is my 'Snowflake'
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Mark, did you buy Erythronium 'Moerheimii' ???... because that is what this plant with the extra petals is ::)
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No, so should I be happy?
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Mark, that is for you to know and me to wonder! 's not one of my favourites!
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Some weeks ago, I came to my garden and found my long awaited flower of
Erythronium caucasicum lying beside the plant. Sure,this is nature,I.but was
so disappointed to see this sad arrangment and wondered,who did this.
The other picture is from last year.
I got this Erythronium dens canis as Early Sensation, but am not quite sure,
if this name is correct.
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Erythronium hendersonii - easy to grow here
Gerd
Gerd
How old is the clump. Have yet to put hendersonii in the garden - all others seem to flourish here, even though we are in the 'hot' south.
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m 'Moerheimii' - plant with the extra petals
Back on March 14, I posted a picture of a Lilac Wonder that I bought from
Ruksans. The flowers have extra petals. So is it Moerheimii?
I've just been outside with a flashlight, counting petals.
My Moerheimii, also from Ruksans, that I've had since 2003, has only one
flower with 7 petals.
My Lilac Wonder, which I bought in 2004, has lots of flowers, with 9
petals, some of which are partly split.
Here is what the catalogue says: Moerheimii, flowers very deep purple
with ...between eight and twelve [petals]
To my eye, every dens-canis I see has the same pinkish colour, and I see
no point in naming them.
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Howdy All,
This is what is under the name Erythronium dens canis 'Snowflake' here in Australia. Theres a pic of a flower that shows the interior, plus a pic of leaf. It was it's first year, so the flower was a bit sad as they usually take a year or two to settle in and flower properly. Does it look correct for that name?
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Well, that is a spectacular flower.
Ruksans' catalogue description of d-c Snowflake is:
white with a base of chartreuse and a faint ring of
red specks.
Rather bland compared to yours.
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Ruweiss,
The damage could be a pheasant if you have them. They can do a lot of damage to Erythronium flowers once they start so watch out. Otherwise it could have just been an unfortunate accident with a dog/cat/person knocking it. Pity though as every flower is eagerly anticipated :(
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Paul that's a stunning combination!
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Interesting. So ours isn't correct for that name? I'd imagine it was imported under that name and will spread from there. I was really impressed with the strong markings on the flower. Anyone have any idea what it actually IS then?
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Paul -
The description of 'Snowflake' by Paul Christian ('Rare plants') is identical to that given by Ruksans however the accompanying photo is of a flower with markings very similar to yours though rather less intense in colour. Make of that what you will!
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Some weeks ago, I came to my garden and found my long awaited flower of
Erythronium caucasicum lying beside the plant. Sure,this is nature,I.but was
so disappointed to see this sad arrangment and wondered,who did this.
I know the feeling Rudi - you have my sympathy. :-\
I had a equally long awaited first flower of revolutum snapped in two, I guess by a blackbird - the garden is full of them....
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Paul,
Could it be a white form of japonicum? Does such thing exsist? The petals look too sturdy for dens-canis :-\
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Susan,
It did remind me of the pics of japonicum I have seen here (Gote's wonderful pics are branded in my memory for life!! ;D). It was a first flowering here, so the flower shape I do not assume is going to remain that form. Sometimes first flowerings in new conditions of anything find can be a bit stunted, which to be honest is how this flower appeared to me a little.
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Paul,
Could it be a white form of japonicum? Does such thing exsist? The petals look too sturdy for dens-canis :-\
A good point Susan, we must always keep an open mind and I am sure that there must be white forms of japonicum out there.
However the anthers of E. japonicum are always held at two levels three short and three long. They all look to be roughly equal in Paul's plant.
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Paul
This is what I got as dens canis 'Niveum' some 12 years ago from Gothenburg botanical garden. This means that it probably originated from Ruksans.
It starts sometimes as a roll back but changes to a fold back. Yellow throath but bluish anthers. My Japonicums only roll - and they have 3 short 3 long anthers.
My Sibiricums have wide, nearly rhomboidal filaments (3rd pic).
What 'Snow Flake' is I do not know but I think that your plant is a dens canis
Göte.
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Susan, we normally have no pheasants in our region,but nasty blackbirds,crows,magpies,
wild pigeons and squirrels;but like I wrote before: Nature is nature and sometimes I think,
that I am only a tolerated guest in my garden by the residing wildlife there.
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Ruweis
I suggest slugs, they are quite good at creating the type of damage you show in your picture. Look at the broken end just below the flower, the break looks chewed. Try slug pellets next year.
Brian Wilson Aberdeen
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Thanks Göte. Looks like a rather lovely plant. Very elegant petals to it. Definitely not something I have seen here in Aus as yet.
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Paul -
Your 'Snowflake' may well be correct. Have a look at Dixexport - (www.dixexport.com/webshop/e/erythronium/19/19699/671?&pager_1ID=1) - their picture of "Snowflake' shows a similar intensity of colour to yours.
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Here's a pic of my clump of Erythronium 'Pagoda' that I have had for about five years. Should I be thinking about splitting it?
Also a pic of Erythronium californicum 'White Beauty', purchased a few weeks ago, but the flowers refused to look at the camera.
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David,
I split my clumps of "Pagoda" last fall, and the patch looks very impressive now. I'll post a photo in a few days (the flowers are not yet open). It is amazing how well they increase, my patch which started with 4 bulbs about 8 years ago now has hundreds of bulbs, and that is despite having given some of the bulbs away.
Ed
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Here's a pic of my clump of Erythronium 'Pagoda'
Good grief David, do you raise sheep as well!
johnw
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Here's a pic of my clump of Erythronium 'Pagoda'
Good grief David, do you raise sheep as well!
johnw
John, not sure if that is a reference to my eclectic range of plants or that you think I may be a Welshman (not sure if word of the Welshmen's alleged carnal affinity to sheep has crossed the Atlantic!) ;D
My problem is that although I have gardened to some degree ever since I was married it is only since (a) I retired and bought a greenhouse; (b) began to grow Primulas and Auriculas; (c) joined the SRGC and began to learn about other plants and especially bulbous ones (that Ian Young has a lot to answer for!) that the range of stuff I want to have a go at has multiplied tremendously. Being 65 now I want to try everything possible whilst I have the energy and the will to continue to learn. The other way of looking at it is if I try lots of species the Law of Averages says I might, one of these days, get something right!
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Here is my not-Snowflake, rather scruffy, but a single bulb was shoved
in a pot last fall and so it's doing well to flower at all.
Leaves with only faint silvery marks. Skinny filaments, white anthers,
no scent.
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Diane -
A form of E. californicum? I have one with similar, rather unexciting, leaves & flowers which are nothing to write home about.
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Don't know if all you folks saw these Erythroniums on the General forum so I'll just post a couple here. I know Ian Y,Ed and Paul have seen them on the other thread but didn't want you to miss out.
Erythronium americanum
Erythronium albidum...both growing in Kentucky 6th April 2008
Alan
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Yesterday I was driving down a nearby country road and passed this nice display in front of a house south of Corvallis, Oregon. And, if anyone is looking for a pre-made Erythronium garden, this one is for sale! But, you would have to buy the house, too (actually it looks like a nice house).
I suspect this is a "wild" population of Erythronium oregonum rather than planted, and it has been encouraged over the years by letting the seeds mature and disperse before any mowing is done. Under these circumstances, E. oregonum populations can build up to great numbers. I have seen similar-looking stands of E. oregonum in front of houses, or in church yards, on Vancouver island, near Victoria B.C.
This is the typical Willamette Valley form which is most similar to E. oregonum ssp. leucandrum. Growing with it are a number of nice native wildflowers associated with prairie and oak habitats, including Camassia quamash, Ranunculus occidentalis, and Cardamine nuttallii (as well as a bit of the exotic Taraxacum officinale).
Ed
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Oh, crikey, the Bulb Despot is already packing his bags! :o
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Told you these things were pernicious weeds, didn't I. We are about to be invaded by several overlapping populations of white things spreading from west to east and vice versa.
Hey Maggi...I'll let you know how much Ian can buy the acreage for that we saw on Saturday. He'll probably get it for a song.....mind you, I've heard him sing, so maybe not ;D
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Ed, it IS a nice enough house to go with the erys! See here
http://www.tncrealty.com/listings/detail.phplid=24696097&limit=0&offset=40&&&posc=50&post=364&cfq=limit%3D10%26pricemax%3D999999999%26radarea%3D0%26searchtype%3D1%26city%5B0%5D%3DCorvallis%26SRSearchDate%3D1207859938%26SRRecordCount%3D364%26SRPageCount%3D37%26SRPage%3D5 8) ::) ;D
SORRY, IT DID WORK WHEN I TESTED IT! TRY THIS : http://www.tncrealty.com/ then in the search box where it says, midway down on the lefthandside of the page : "Quick Property search: MLS# , type this number in 593002
This will bring up the details of 30629 Bellfountain Rd , Corvallis, OR 97333 .... I hope!
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Maggi
Your last link did not work :(
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Sorry , Arthur, I have amended a new method to get to the house details in my previous post !
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It has a certain rustic charm. But is 1.04 acres really big enough?
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Here is another problem Erythronium bought last year. Again because I dont take a note of suppliers I dont know where it came from. As it was emerging I was thinking how could the supplier and I not notice the bulb wasn't a Colchicum
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Yes, Victoria has front lawns that are full of Erythroniums. Unfortunately
it doesn't take long for a new tidy owner, or one who hires a lawn service,
to kill them all.
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Oh, crikey, the Bulb Despot is already packing his bags! :o
Yes Maggi, you found the right house - isn't the internet amazing!
$499,000 is a rather expensive house for us Americans (except in California and a few other places), but with the exchange rate what it is, it should be a good deal for someone from the other site of the Atlantic.
I'll be happy to arrange a house warming party for the new occupant with fellow NARGS members - just let me know what a good date would be.
I'm just surprised they don't have any Erythronium photos on the real estate company's web site - seems like they could up the price by thousands just for that view alone.
Ed
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It has a certain rustic charm. But is 1.04 acres really big enough?
Why have 1 acre of Erythroniums when you can have 2?
Ed
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Here is my 'Altai Snow' again. Can anyone tell me what Erythronium this is and what might have gone wrong with the flower?
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Mark,
My Altai Snow has a bit of a pink tinge to it as well although maybe not as much as yours. I don't think you are doing anything wrong, I don't find the sibiricum erythroniums very good in our climate. The dull but warm temperatures tend to make the flowers open at ground level where they get damaged easily and the petals tend to stick together. I think people might have more success growing them where very cold suddenly changes to hot and sunny. The flowers will then elongate and open quicker.
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Yes the flowers of mine appeared right between the leaves. Maybe I should plant it in my full shade bed when it's made. Over the last few days the flower stem has elongated
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My last flowering Erythronium
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Mark,
I posted my kind of Altai Snow in this topic some days ago. The source was Ruksans and I think he named it so it should be right. What you have, might be a seedling that either has reverted to the reddish or is a cross with the red ones.
I have noted that sibiricum have a tendency of trying to flower before emerging. The pedicel elongates all the time. This seems worse if it is recently replanted. I think that your is suffering from transplanting shock. I keep my sibiricums in a fairly shaded position.
Next year iyours will probably look right - perhaps even better than Altai Snow.
Göte
PS
My dens-canis niveum looked like this saturday. They have such a good colour combination in the leaves and flower.
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Gote,
Fantastic plant that one... the striking leaves, white flowers and blue anthers are an amazing combination. :o Beautiful!!
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Janis Ruksans has now described the plant he called Erythronium Altai Snow as Erythronium sibericum ssp altaicum.
As a sub species it is not represented as a single clone but as seed raised plants so they will vary within the limits of the description and this includes some that may display some pink tinge as they fade just like yours Mark.
Here is a picture of one of mine - more will appear in this weeks bulb log.
[attach=1]
Hans from the picture I do not think that your last Erythronium is E. oregonum but an E. californicum or white beauty type.
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Nice long stems, Ian. Where do you grow yours?
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Hot off the press/camera card is the lovely 'Craigton Cream' selected by Ian himself. Smell good too almost with a hint of lemon. Kinky style too that I didnt notice until Ian told me just now
Oh I like bright evenings! Only a couple of minutes from garden to computer and on to the forum
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Super flowers Mark !! 8)
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Thanks but it is hats off to the selector. They are doing well in a 1L long tom
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Mark,
Our hats are always off for the BD ! ;D
Oops - I just noticed I passed the millenium !
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And hats off to the photographer, these are some very fine photos you took Mark. Super plant too of course, that always helps.....
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Oops - I just noticed I passed the millenium !
Congratulations, Luc, better nip out to the shop and get yourself some chocolate!
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Ian,
Both the former 'Altai Snow' and your own lovely selection are great flowers. I'd be pleased to flower either of those here in my garden, that is for sure. Thanks to you and Mark for the photos for us to enjoy. Love that kinky style!! ;D
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Thank you Maggi, but I would gladly offer the chocolate to the girls on the forum ;D ;D
For myself I would be thinking of something else .... ::) maybe liquid.... ;D
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Ian,
You are of course right. If it is a ssp it might come out pinkish. I believed 'Altai Snow' be a clone. Now this explains why the ssp altaicum I ordered are so similar to the 'Altai Snow' I have grown for some time.
Mark,
I grow these outside and the one I moved and damaged slightly this season came up like yours - i.e. Flower first - come up later. My first one did that year one but not later.
Göte
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I'll get my altaicum planted out later this year.
I should have said the blue background for 'Craigton Cream' is the blue sky.
This Saturday I'm helping Margaret Glynn whos garden is open for the Irish Garden Plant Society. She has high hundreds of Erythroniums in her garden but no hybrids. Maybe she needs a trained eye to look for them, Ian! Obviously I'll have lots of photos to post
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In the 2007/08 issue of Lilies and Related Plants, which has just arrived,
there is an article by Brian Mathew on Erythronium.
He mentions the "Sulphur Form" of E. oregonum which has been grown
in the U.K. for many years. When he visited Oregon, he saw it growing
in a garden there, and was told it came from Kelley Butte.
Now, there are two Oregon places with a similar name. Kelley Butte
is a small park almost in downtown Portland, and Kelly Butte is in a volcanic
area almost in the middle of the state, in Deschutes National Forest.
Can one of our Oregon members tell me which is the most likely place
for me to go next spring to look for one?
Last December, Diane Whitehead posted a note about the recent issue of "Lilies and Related Plants", which had the above reference to the "Sulphur Form" of Erythronium oregonum, in an article on Erythronium by Brian Mathew.
This piqued my interest, and with assistance from a local expert, last Saturday April 12th I was able to visit Kelly Butte in Portland to see the Erythronium that grows there. It was a glorious day, sunny and hot (86 deg. F, a record high for the date). Kelly Butte is a small forested hill in a largely residential neighborhood, across the street from the local soccer field and, next to that, a big recreational vehicle dealership. Erythronium oregonum grows in patches across the hillside, not hugely abundant, but the plants are very robust and healthy looking. This may be, in part, because the "soil" is composed of rounded cobbles mixed in with a bit of forest humus.
Now, you might ask, why is the side of a hill covered with river cobbles? The likely reason has to do with a series of gigantic floods that ripped across Montana, Idaho, Washington, and Oregon, at the peak of the last glacial period. The ice sheet had blocked a valley in the Rocky Mountains, forming a large lake behind the ice dam. Eventually, the lake level rose high enough to overtop the ice dam, releasing a huge (and by huge I mean bigger than you could ever imagine) burst of floodwaters. By the time the water reached the Portland area, it was still carrying lots of rocks and gravel, and in the eddy formed on the lee side of Kelly Butte, a lot of the smaller gravel dropped out of the floodwaters and settled on the side of the hill.
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But I digress...So, the question here is whether this population could be the original wild source of the Erythronium strain that is known in cultivation as the "Sulphur Form". Ian indicated that the "Sulphur Form" is a form of E. oregonum ssp. leucandrum, which is found primarily to the south of Portland, in the Willamette Valley and particularly in the Umpqua and Rogue valleys. Ssp. oregonum, on the other hand, is the only ssp. that occurs north of Portland, and to the south, ssp. oregonum is primarily (though not exclusively) found at higher elevations than ssp. oregonum.
These plants had the white tepals (with a tint of yellowish green on the outer base), and dark yellow anthers, of ssp. oregonum. Ssp. leucandrum, on the other hand, has white or pale cream anthers, and a creamy tinge to the tepals. So I feel pretty confident that the plants at Kelly Butte in Portland are ssp. oregonum. They are, however, an exceptional form, with tepals 2 1/2 inches long, and plants 18" tall in flower. It was great to see them, especially on such as nice sunny day. One plant in particular has especially dark leaf marbling, though the flowers on that plant were smaller and not opening fully.
Since haven't seen the "Sulphur Form" as it is grown in gardens, I can't say definitively whether it may have originated at the Portland Kelly Butte. Does anyone have a photo of this form they could post? At this point, however, there are several alternate versions of the story that should be explored. One possibility is that the "Sulphur Form" came from another Kelly Butte, as there is a site with the same name in southern Oregon. Another possibility is that the plants or seeds that were the source of the original plants of the "Sulphur Form" were from a garden that had plants from multiple localities, and there was a mix-up in the labels or memory of the person who was raising the plants. Someone who has been gardening in the Portland area for a long time might be able to shed more light on this question.
I should also mention companion plants at this site. Trillium ovatum was quite common, and there were large carpets of Vancouveria hexandra as well. Cardamine nuttallii was common though mostly past bloom, and Maianthemum racemosum (Smilacina racemosa) was present, along with a few patches of Cynoglossum grande, uncommon here where it is near its northern range limit. The overstory was Douglas-fir, bigleaf maple, with an understory mostly of vine maple and hazel.
Ed
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Ed,
Thank you for remembering, and driving up to photograph them.
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Kelly Butte was only part of my Erythronium search on Saturday. I also had time to visit the Camassia Natural Area, also near Portland but about 10 miles south of Kelly Butte. This is a small (26 acre) preserve that is known for its abundance of Camassia quamash a little later in the spring. It is a series of rocky plateaus above the Willamette River, with views of Mt. Hood in the distance. It is very much a natural rock garden.
Erythronium oregonum, however, grows mostly in the shady forest of mixed hardwoods and conifers, in humusy soil over rocks. I have been to Camassia many times, but now that I think of it, never when the Erythronium was blooming. I was very surprised to see that this population fits the characteristics of ssp. leucandrum, with pale anthers and a slight creamy tinge to the tepals.
Again it was a great day to photograph Erythroniums, given the warm dry conditions and peak condition of the flowers.
Another interesting difference between this site and the Erythronium population at Kelly Butte is that on most plants at Camassia, the flowers were very much smaller, with narrower tepals, mostly about 1.5 - 2 inches long. Again, it is hard to say whether the difference is genetic or due to the habitat differences, but if it is genetic, this population would be a less desirable source of garden plants than the Kelly Butte population. (And either way, these plants are scarce enough that they should not be collected as bulbs, and seed collection, if permitted, should be judicious).
Finally, I noted several plants of E. oregonum that had a third leaf coming up from the base of the plant. This appears, to me, to be an indication that the plants are capable of producing offsets from the parent corm, and uncommon trait in E. oregonum.
Ed
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Super images Ed....thanks a million.
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W O N D E R F U L ! :o
Thanks for taking us along on your hike Ed !
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Ed - Can I second your request for a photo of E.oregonum 'Sulphur Form'? Your posts have convinced me that the plants I have under that name are, in fact, something else. They have pale yellow flowers and yellow anthers. The fat filaments suggest some affinity with E.oregonum.
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Ed thanks for your great pictures and research results it is almost as good as being with you.
I have attached pictures o what have as Erythronium oregonum leucandrum and the sulphur form both of which I think are the same thing.
They come true from seed with some variation in leaf markings and some flowers have some brown markings towards the centre zone. The anthers are always pale and can vary from a very pale greeny yellow to almost white.
This is also the same plant that I have seen going around in the UK wrongly named E citrinum which can be easily distinguished by the shape of the filaments. To add further to this confusion there are a number of good E citrinum hybrids possibly with E. oregonum going around - I will post pictures of these soon as they open.
Below are pictures of
Erythronium oregonum sulphur form
Erythronium Oregonum leucandrum
Erythronium Oregonum leucandrum
I will take new ones in the coming weeks as the flowers open - if the weather would only improve.
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A few more pictures of Erythronium oregonum from my files which add another entity into the picture.
First two forms of Erythronium oregonum oregonum with yellow pollen and white tepals then Erythronium oregonum leucandrum with pale pollen and greeny yelow tepals then an intermediate form that has yellow pollen and greeny yellow tepals.
I do have some forms that seem intermediate between oregonum and leucandrum - may be that is what has been called the sulphur form but it was not what I got as the sulphur form.
This intermediate was raise from seed andf I have lost the source, it could have been our own garden seed.
Erythronium oregonum oregonum 1
Erythronium oregonum oregonum 2
Erythronium oregonum leucandrum
Erythronium oregonum intermediate
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Ian,
The top photo of your post just above this, Erythronium oregonum oregonum 1, has
lovely central marks, quite unlike any I have seen in our area.
I have picked thousands in my lifetime, almost all more than sixty years ago, when
it was a spring ritual to pick big bunches of what we called Easter Lilies. I can't
remember any without brown marks.
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Ed showed a picture of some wild oregonum with a third leaf, which he thought might
indicate multiplication from the bulb, rather than from seed, as is normal.
It sent me out into my garden to see if I might have some clumpers.
These are pink erythroniums that have been seeding in my garden for several
generations (plant, not people generations). The source was an area near Skutz
Falls where dark pink revolutum grew in quaggy areas along a stream and white
oregonum grew on a dry wooded hillside. The pale pink flowers growing along the
road between hill and stream are probably hybrids.
The first picture shows what most of my plants are like: close together, but
varying in flower colour and leaf markings. Each plant is seed-grown.
The second picture might show a plant that is multiplying by bulb. The plants
look identical and are very close together.
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Diane, I have had E. oregonum from may sources mostly of wild origin but some from cultivation plus ofcourse I am sowing most of my own seed so I am seeing variations.
As to clumping my best E. oregonum has been a single flowering bulb for about five years this year there is a third leaf suggesting it will split - there is always hope fora good clump if I can live long enough.
I do have some E. revolutums that do clump up but not at any great speed it takes about five years to make a resonable group.
Most hybrids on the other hand seem to increase well and that is why they are so desirable.
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Wonderful pics Ed, Ian and Diane. Diane, I particularly like your pink "weeds" that are seeding everywhere!! ;D I could do with that sort of problem. ;D
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Here are a few from Margaret Glynn's garden taken today.
?
?
?
E. americanum
E. revolutum
? and revolutum in the background
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All beautiful pics Mark. Just loving this thread!! 8)
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Weather permitting I'll be back in the garden next Friday.
Ian Y. any idea what the cream Erythroniums are?
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E. Pagoda
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Nice flowers on "Pagoda". Mine aren't looking so good this year - the outer tepals are much shorter than the inner and more recurved. I wonder if it has been the weather, with many cool damp days (including some hard frosts) with a 2 day spell of hot weather in between. Hopefully it is not some kind of new disease.
I did mention earlier that I would post a photo of my "Pagoda" patch to show the amount of vegetative increase you can get after a few years. The photo was actually taken last weekend. This patch started with 4 bulbs that I purchased about 7 or 8 years ago. The increase has occurred despite giving some bulbs away as well. I divided the clumps last fall and they completely filled this bed with at least 100 bulbs.
The other thing to notice is the variation in the mottling of the leaves. Given that this is a single genetic clone, the fact that leaf mottling varies suggest that the intensity of mottling is a response, at least in part, to environmental factors.
Ed
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We woke up this morning to a light covering of slushy snow. Needless to say, snow here in usually mild western Oregon on April 20th is very unusual. As a result, my Erythronium hendersonii patches have turned to mush. Some of my plants were flowering on March 18th, so while the end of the season is near, they have given me over a month of bloom this year. I'm sure this is due in part to the cool weather, but I seem to recall it has been in bloom for a long time in previous years as well.
Ed
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I had exactly the same problem as you with my clump of E. Pagoda Ed, I also blame the weather - cold with lots of night frost when the buds were developping. :(
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Mark
1,2 and 3 look like E. white beauty types - it does seed around and many seedlings look alike.
The last one is a bit difficult but from what I can see in the picture my first choice would also be E.californicum or perhaps a E.multiscapoideum I would want to be there to be sure.
Ed
Such a pity the weather has hit your wonderful patch of E. hendersonii - it is so beautiful. We are having cold wet and windy inter mixed with bright windy weather and it is damaging all the erthronium flowers - the do not like windy conditions. The good news is that the wind is to move round and will come from the South which is much better for us as it will be warmer and we have more shelter. The cold north easter is the worst and that is what we have had for weeks now.
The markings on all Erythronium leaves will vary from year to year and clones can exhibit different markings. It is down to environmental factors such as temperature, and feeding with well fed mature bulbs producing the most advanced markings and poorly fed imature bulbs can have almost plain green leaves.
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My E. pagoda looks OK even though I had a late frost when the buds were forming.
Also a small clump of E. joanna. I just need a sunny day for the buds to open.
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Just a quick update showing E. joanna in the sun today
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Nice photos. Good things come to he who waits!
Ian says (in Bulb Log #20 in 2006) that he thinks E. "Joanna" is a hybrid involving the yellow E. tuolumnense and the pink E. revolutum. See http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/170506/log.html
That makes sense to me, as you can see a slight pinkish tinge to the outer side of the tepals (and on the buds). In addition, the anther filaments appear to be slightly flattened, which suggests the influence of either E. revolutum and E. oregonum, that is, assuming the other parent is a western NA species.
Ed
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Here's a pic of my clump of Erythronium 'Pagoda'
Good grief David, do you raise sheep as well!
johnw
David - I was referring to the lustiness of your Pagoda and possible copious supply of manures!
johnw
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This was E. 'Johanna' in Ron McBeath's garden yesterday. Looks slightly different to yours, but perhaps its just not as far out as your is yet. Anyhow, here it is:
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Erythronium revolutum 'White Beauty'.
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Erythronium time is here now but we are a week or so away from the peak flowering it will depend on the weather.
Today is gray and wet so not so good yesterday was sunny so I got a lot of pictures - no guesses what will feature in next weeks bulb log :) :) :)
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Oh wow!!! :o The purists would hate me for this.... but... imagine all the wonderful hybrids you could end up with from seed from plants that close together. I SO want some seed from that lot!! ;D ;)
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I say double wow!!! I have a perfect place in the garden to build something like the second picture. Lots of work to be done first and then planting...
An old man should perhaps not have so big dreams.
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Stunning view Ian ! Gorgeous !
And to Kenneth.... gardeners should NEVER feel old... ;D
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I want to come visit them Ian.... wish you lived a little closer. They look stunning! You must be very pleased.
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Here's an example of E. sibiricum that has flowered before it surfaced... :'(
This picture is a few days old - now the stem has elongated and it even looks as if it's setting seed... ???
did an earthworm do the polinating ??? ;D
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Maybe there is a hollow space under those rocks - an underworld.
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Luc,
Congratulations on the seedpod. While it is disappointing that you didn't get to enjoy the flower.... at least if it never opened above ground you can be certain it is self pollinated, which is a good thing as you know the seedlings will be pure sibiricum. Given I don't think that is at all a common species (in fact I'd never even come across it until reading about it here on the forums) it's good that you have seed as you can grow yourself some more pure plants from it. Great stuff!! 8)
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Here is a nice hybrid that I found amonst my revolutums
Susan
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Erythronium howellii unless anyone tells me different :)
Susan
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That is a good revoultum hybrid Susan especially if it will increase quickly - the pale anthers make me suspect E californicum could be invloved.
I have been finding more hybrids among my seedlings as well and will show them in this weeks bulb log.
Your E. howellii looks right, it is very close to E citrinum and the only way to tell them apart is that howellii does not have the swollen apendages at the base of the tepals and citrinum does.
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Thanks Ian, I only have 1 bulb of the hybrid so far, time will tell if it will bulk up.
I will look at what I have as citrinum and see if there is a difference.
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I was discussing with Ian on the Harrogate Show thread
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1705.60
about my E origonum's parentage & whether it was "born over the brush".
So here is a couple of close up photo's of it's bits & also E californicum from seed.
The only other Erythronium i've got out at the moment is E x citronella so here's a close up for comparison.
Cheers
Les
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Les
It would be good to have Ed Alverson's opinion on your E. oregonum in your first two pictures as he is the expert in the field - I still believe it to be a hybrid.
Ed are you there?
Another factor is I have never found a true form of E oregonum that would increase and form a clump at any speed.
Les, another guitarist - we should have get together - having played in many bands I always fancied forming the 'Scottish Rockers' from our talented Members.
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I've always thought that "Offya Rockers" is a good name for a band. Particularly suitable if I was a member!! ;D
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Ian, i'm more folky than rocker, (i play a melodeon as well). There again I could plobably manage 'Take it easy'.
Cheers
Les
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I'm more folky than rocker, (I play a melodeon as well). There again I could plobably manage 'Take it easy'.
Cheers
Les
Well, we are old folky types, too, in fact... but since this fabulous band would owe its inception to the SRGC, it really has to have "Rockers" in the name!! ::) ;) :D
I think, like the SRGC itself, the band would play a wide range of styles.....I think Paul's suggestion of Offya Rockers is fantastic 8)
Paul, do you play an instrument? No? Well, in that case, you can be the drummer ::) ::)
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Ed are you there?
Yep, I'm here...Yes, Les' Erythronium oregonum looks good. The only thing I would suggest checking is the width of the filaments. The look flattened in the photo, but they should measure at least 1.5 mm wide. Otherwise, the combination of yellow anthers and long stigma lobes means that it can't be E. californicum, citrinum, or multiscapoideum. These plants look to be ssp. oregonum, having yellow anthers and white (not creamy) tepals, assuming the photo is capturing the true color.
I especially like the upward-facing shot - it reminds me of the field of poppies on the way to OZ, except they are Erythronium not Papaver...
Ed
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Thanks for your view Ed I am happy for it to be E oregonum and I agree that it does come close to the description.
I still believe that we are looking at a possible hybrid of E. oregonum and it wold be interesting if Les can tell us if this plant was seed raised and if the seed was of wild or cultivated origin.
I have found a number of E. oregonum hybrids among my own seed and while they do retain much of the features of oregonum they do tend to have narrower and more parallel filaments.
Here are two pictures first of E. oregonum and second of an E. oregonum hybrid which I think looks more like Les's plant.
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I think, like the SRGC itself, the band would play a wide range of styles..
Maggi, I think you will have to count me out as I play bagpipes,(well I used to ) would never do in a rock band. I still play a tin whistle, would that do?
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I can claim a mean washboard (boy does that age me!!)
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Ed - glad to see you are back because I want to raise again the question of E.oregonum 'Sulphur Form'. Brian Mathew (in AGS Bull. 66 (3) 1998) describes this as having "very soft pale yellow flowers" & "although of unrecorded origin" says he has seen "similar plants in the Leach Garden, Portland, and these were of wild source from Northern Oregon". Does this ring any bells?
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Ian, i'm more folky than rocker, (i play a melodeon as well). There again I could plobably manage 'Take it easy'.
Cheers
Les
So not Les Brown and his Band of Renown then? Thank God for that! :-X Rather have Michael and his bagpipes any day.
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I think you will have to count me out as I play bagpipes,(well I used to ) would never do in a rock band. I still play a tin whistle, would that do?
we have a great band in Scotland called the "Red Hot Chilli Pipers"... I kid you not... they really rock!
see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwrvHnYpwkk
This will end up more of an orchestra than a band at this rate......though Ian says he can only come to practice out of Erythronium season :-X
Back to the Erys... I too incline to the dutchman's breech shape of filament for E. oregonum..... I cite Elmer Applegate !
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Maggi, I just had a look at the Red Hot Chilli Pipers"... theres hope for me yet,although I think I might be past my sell-by date.
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we have a great band in Scotland called the "Red Hot Chilli Pipers"... I kid you not... they really rock!
see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwrvHnYpwkk
Great stuff! and while you are in mood for U-tube AND erythroniums, try this to calm you down (you may need to turn the volume up after the Red Hot Chilli Pipers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOP4-ww6wNQ
It just shows you can get anything on U-tube, even erythroniums
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Ian, it was purchased as a bulb & I can't remember where from.
I've thought of a couple of numbers we could do. "Rocking all over the world", "Rock Island Line", "15 tons". "Lily the Pink".
Cheers
Les
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My first Erythroniums this year opened up today.
E. sibiricum altaicum
(http://magnar.aspaker.no/Eryrhtonium%20sibiricum%20altaicum%20DSCF1264.jpg)
E. sibiricum
(http://magnar.aspaker.no/Erythronium%20sibiricum%20DSCF1256.jpg)
E. dens-canis Rose Queen
(http://magnar.aspaker.no/Erythronium%20dens%20canis%20Rose%20Queen%20DSCF1269.jpg)
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I actually have a CD of Salsa Celtica 8) ... but no erythroniums :'( (yet ... looking forward to having dens-canis one day).
All your photos of erythroniums are very, very much appreciated!!!!
Chloë
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Great link to the Red Hot Chilli Pipers. Thanks for that. My mother, who took her love of the pipes VERY SERIOUSLY, would have been deeply shocked. But then, she couldn't even cope with Amazing Grace. :o
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Magnar,
Those sibiricum are lovely. I really must find that species at some point. Lovely!! 8)
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Magnar,
I see that your sibiricums have extended and opened out properly. I think it must be due to you being cold then suddenly turning bright and warm. As noted previously when anyone with a mild but dull climate trys to grow them they open out at ground level. I think it must be the good light you have up there.
Nice to see them in their full glory
Susan
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Magnar,
I see that your sibiricums have extended and opened out properly. I think it must be due to you being cold then suddenly turning bright and warm. As noted previously when anyone with a mild but dull climate trys to grow them they open out at ground level. I think it must be the good light you have up there.
Nice to see them in their full glory
Susan
May be you are right, I never thought of that. After a cold April we got some good temperatures this week. The plants flowered only 4 days after the snow had gone. Actually they had started to grow up through the snow, even if the ground was partly frozen still. And we have lots of light, no more darkness here now until the middle of August, and in 3 weeks we have the midnight sun. :)
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Susan up to now I have had that problem with all my E. sibericum which were all got as bulbs that is why I mostly grow them in pots so I can take them under glass and give them some quick heat.
Now the first of my seed raised ones are flowering and they are performing perfectly by them selves.
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Ian,
Interesting
Susan
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Ian,
I love that last pic of the pink with the white extending well up the petal. Particularly nice combination. 8)
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Hello! Look at my ERYTHRONIUM ;)
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It is my love. I grow up them from seeds. Here so they grow in a garden, everywhere, glades. I can send seeds.
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Anastasia
I thought your Fritillarias were good, but these Erythroniums are wonderful.
Arthur
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I've been meaning to post some photos from my Erythronium explorations this past spring, but haven't had a chance to get to it. However, seeing Ron Ratko's new seed catalog has prompted me to get a start, because this year he is offering seed of a rare Erythronium, E. grandiflorum ssp. nudipetalum, which I had a chance to see in the wild for the first time this past spring.
Erythronium grandiflorum ssp. nudipetalum is a local endemic to a small area of the headwaters of the Salmon River, about a 2 or 3 hour drive northeast of Boise, Idaho. This plant was first discovered by Elmer Applegate and formally described by him in 1933. Because it is a local endemic and very poorly represented in herbaria, it has been pretty much ignored by recent monographers, and is not recognized as a valid taxon in Flora of North America. In 1991, extensive botanical surveys were done which determined that this taxon is only found within Bear Valley, at elevations of about 6500 to 7000 ft., within an area only 15 to 20 miles across. However, within this area, some populations are very large, with tens to hundreds of thousands of plants.
It is always a challenge to time ones visit to catch a particular species in flower, but it turned out that there was only one weekend I could get away during the likely flowering season to visit this site. It was mid-June that I made the trip, and it was June 14th, 2008 that I explored Bear Valley. Here is a photo of one portion of the valley, along with a sign posted along the road that does a good job of showing the nature of the terrain. The land is mostly owned by the US Forest Service, and is accessible by dirt roads, though the area is right on the edge of the River of No Return Wilderness area.
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Bear Valley is covered by an extensive series of meadows, and though it was early in the flowering season, I could see that the flora is very diverse. Here is a selection of wildflowers, including Wyethia, Olsynium, a mustard (Arabis?), Dodecatheon, and Claytonia. It looked like the kind of site where floral display would present a different set of flowering plants every few weeks.
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Ed - glad to see you are back on the forum because I want to raise again the question of E.oregonum 'Sulphur Form'. Brian Mathew (in AGS Bull. 66 (3) 1998) describes this as having "very soft pale yellow flowers" & "although of unrecorded origin" says he has seen "similar plants in the Leach Garden, Portland, and these were of wild source from Northern Oregon". Does this ring any bells? I ask because I think one of my plants may be this form though received as something else.
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Bear Valley is located at a high enough elevation that the winter snowpack takes some time to melt. 2008 was a relatively heavy snow year, which complicated my plants - I couldn't just rely on the flowering dates from previous collections or reports to know when to find Erythronium in bloom. It turned out that my visit was about 10 days past the peak of bloom for Erythronium, but I was still able to find plants in flower in areas where the snow had taken longer to melt. Fortunately it turned out to be a beautiful sunny day, and fortunately I found Erythronium grandiflorum ssp. nudipetalum soon after reaching Bear Valley without much difficulty.
Erythronium grandiflorum ssp. nudipetalum looks much like typical E. grandiflorum, with yellow tepals and red anthers. However, it differs in lacking the appendages at the inner base of the petals that are found in typical E. grandiflorum (as well as many other Erythoniums). Also, the style is essentially un-branched at the tip. Most significantly, from a horticultural standpoint, the flowers are much smaller than most or all other forms of E. grandiflorum. Associated with this reduction in flower size is a propensity for plants to produce many flowers on a single flowering stem (more on this in a bit).
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The largest concentration of E. grandiflorum ssp. nudipetalum is found in "Big Meadows", which is up near the headwaters of Bear Valley Creek. I had to drive over a few small snowbanks on the dirt road to get to this area, as the area is not frequently visited this early in the season. The plants here were unfortunately a bit past their peak of bloom, which is seen by the fringe of white on some of the flowers that have begun to fade. This is the place where Erythronium grandiflorum ssp. nudipetalum carpets the meadows by the hundreds of thousands. Here, in the full sun of the open meadow, some of the plants had numerous flowers. Four-flowered stems were not uncommon, some had more.
Also I found a single plant of what I presume to be a genetic mutant, with pale, almost white tepals.
My conclusion, after seeing Erythronium grandiflorum ssp. nudipetalum in the wild, is that it is definitely a valid taxon and should be recognized as such in our floras. The small flower size, often with multiple flowers on a single stem, along with the un-branched stigma and missing appendages at the base of the tepals, is very reminiscent of Erythronium pluriflorum, a local endemic of subalpine habitats in the Sierra Nevada Mts. in California. In fact, the relationship of Erythronium grandiflorum ssp. nudipetalum to Erythronium grandiflorum ssp. grandiflorum is very reminiscent of the relationship of Erythronium pluriflorum to E. tuolumnense, a larger yellow-flowers species that grows at lower elevations in the Sierra Nevada.
To be honest, I suspect that Erythronium grandiflorum ssp. nudipetalum will prove to be a very challenging plant to grow and flower in low elevation gardens in humid climates. But if one can provide a cover of snow in the winter, or at least keep it from rotting off during the winter, it is at least worth a try. I suppose that anyone who can grow typical Erythronium grandiflorum ssp. ssp. grandiflorum might want to give it a shot...
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I should mention that I did not see any bears while I was in Bear Valley, but I did see other wildlife, including a small herd of elk (what people in Europe would call red deer). And in western North America, where one sees elk, one also should be on the lookout for their predators - wolves and mountain lions. As I was walking along the road in Big Meadows, taking in the erythroniums, I noticed a set of animal tracks right in the middle of the road. They were big paw prints - and not that I am an expert on animal tracks, but I'm pretty certain that they tracks from a mountain lion that had recently been out enjoying the erythroniums as well.
It was a fitting conclusion to a rewarding visit to an amazing place.
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Ed - glad to see you are back on the forum because I want to raise again the question of E.oregonum 'Sulphur Form'. Brian Mathew (in AGS Bull. 66 (3) 1998) describes this as having "very soft pale yellow flowers" & "although of unrecorded origin" says he has seen "similar plants in the Leach Garden, Portland, and these were of wild source from Northern Oregon". Does this ring any bells? I ask because I think one of my plants may be this form though received as something else.
Gerry,
I haven't see garden plants of the "Sulphur form" myself, but as we discussed in the forum previously, populations of Erythronium oregonum that have pale anthers (ie, ssp. leucandrum) have tepals with a cream to pale yellow tinge to them, as compared to the basically white tepals and deep yellow anthers of ssp. oregonum. Last spring I found populations of both ssp. oregonum and ssp. leucandrum in the Portland area, and both types are generally distributed through western Oregon (though ssp. oregonum extends to higher elevations and ssp. leucandrum is more common at low elevations).
Perhaps this coming spring I will have a chance to get to the Leach Garden during the Erythronium season. If I do, I'll post some photos.
Do you have a photo of your plant that you could post? What was the name under which you received it?
Ed
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Ed is the close shot of the paw print a cast you made or is it a trick of light making it look raised
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I noticed a set of animal tracks right in the middle of the road. They were big paw prints - and not that I am an expert on animal tracks, but I'm pretty certain that they tracks from a mountain lion that had recently been out enjoying the erythroniums as well.
Ed, the tracks seem to show nail prints extending from the pad print: cats (other than cheetas whose genus name, Acinonyx, is a hint at this) typically don't walk with extended nails, do they? Isn't it more likely that the prints are wolf prints? A field guide I consulted gives the length of a gray wolf print as 5 inches, that of a mountain lion 4 inches.
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Jim,
Like I said, I am not an expert!
Peterson's Field Guide to Animal Tracks does say that the track of a mountain lion "rarely shows the claws", and wolf tracks do show the claws. The first photo clearly shows the claw marks. (the close-up does look raised but that is just a trick of the lighting). It may be possible that the conditions underwhich the tracks were formed (a saturated sandy clay road surface that had subsequently dried after the tracks were made) allowed for a sufficiently deep track to be made that the claws were able to show.
The shape of the paw prints looks to me a bit more like the drawing of a mountain lion print, than the shape of the wolf print in the field guide. The toe pads of the mountain lion are more circular than elliptic, compared to the wolf.
Unfortunately I didn't take a photo with a ruler or something else for scale (I was also running out of room on my memory card at the time!) but you can compare the width to the adjacent tire tracks, clearly they are in the 4" to 5" range but I don't think I can say any more precisely.
On the other hand, there actually is a resident wolf pack in this part of the Idaho mountains so it certainly is very possible that they may be wolf tracks (and botanically sophisticated wolves, it would appear!). I didn't hear any wolves howing in the area, but I was only there in the daytime.
Ed
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Jim,
I just showed the photos to someone who is very experienced with identification of animal tracks. He says that they are definitely canid tracks (because of the claws, as you mention), and give their size the must be wolf tracks. So I stand corrected!
Ed
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I was just going to throw in my opinion, when Ed came back with a definitive answer from his tracking pal. Yes, they're tracks made by a pretty big canine....given the area, that suggests wolf! If I saw it on a woodland track here, I'd think very large dog!
Ian is going to very much enjoy seeing these new posts when he comes online in the morning, Ed!
Great to get an Erythronium "fix" in December!!
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Fantastic pics of a great Erythronium (and surrounding areas of course), Ed. Great stuff. 8)
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Great shots Ed and very informative too !
Thanks a lot for sharing !!!
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Great series of posts Ed showing one of the Erythroniums I have not managed to grow to flowering size.
I did receive some seeds many years ago as E. nudipetalum which germinated but slowly died off over a few years and never got to flowering size.
From what you show and describe it would seem that there is some argument for it being as good a species as some others and not just described as a subspecies of grandiflorum- the splitter lumper thing again.
Perhaps I should thry again from seed now I understand their requirements in cultivation better.
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Fascinating posts Ed; many thanks.
Your last picture (Reply #205, pic 019 background right) seems to show extensive forest die-back. What's the reason for this do you know, and is it widespread?
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Gerry,
Do you have a photo of your plant that you could post? What was the name under which you received it?
Ed
Ed - many thanks for your response. Unfortunately, I didn't have a digital camera last year so I have no photo. If the plant is still alive I'll post a photo next year. It is some form of E.oregonum, pale yellow which fades as the flower ages. I received the plant as E.citrinum which it certainly is not.
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Your last picture (Reply #205, pic 019 background right) seems to show extensive forest die-back. What's the reason for this do you know, and is it widespread?
Ashley,
What you are seeing is areas burned by recent forest fires. There were particularly extensive fires in the Bear Valley area in 2006 and 2007, but they were also very patchy, burning some areas completely but then jumping across large stretches, leaving them un-burned. The visual effects are very striking.
I have noted in my articles on Erythronium that erythroniums (and other lilies) often respond very positively to forest fires. Plants in burned areas receive increased sunlight and also benefit from a "fertilizer effect" due to nutrients that are released when fuels burn in to ashes. However, I did not see E. grandiflorum ssp. nudipetalum growing in areas that burned in Bear Valley, so I can't really say anything about whether this more general observation holds the specific situation of Bear Valley.
Ed
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From what you show and describe it would seem that there is some argument for it being as good a species as some others and not just described as a subspecies of grandiflorum- the splitter lumper thing again.
Ian,
This is exactly the point I was hoping to make, that there are various ways that one could view this situation. Elmer Applegate actually first described it as a full species, Erythronium nudipetalum, and it was another botanist who made it a subspecies of E. grandiflorum. Other taxonomists who chose not to recognize nudipetalum as a valid taxon of any kind did not (as far as I know) have the benefit of seeing the populations in the wild, to see the patterns of variation and how they differ from typical forms of E. grandiflorum (which apparently do not grow in the immediate vicinity of Bear Valley, at least).
One difficulty, however, with treating nudipetalum as a full species is its evidently close relationship to E. grandiflorum ssp. grandiflorum. It would appear that nudipetalum is more closely connected, in an evolutionary sense, to ssp. grandiflorum, that the white and yellow anthered ssp. pallidum and chrysandrum, respectively. Some taxonomists, at least, would say that if you consider nudipetalum to be a distinct species, you would also have to treat ssp. pallidum and chrysandrum as full species as well. But anther color is not a completely reliable trait so most experts have only been willing to view them as varieties or subspecies, if anything.
Myself, I don't worry too much about getting caught up in having the "correct" taxonomy, I'm more interested in learning about the plants themselves, their patterns of variation, and their geography, ecology, etc.
Ed
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Ed,
I wonder if you could do a big favour and look on my website to see if my Erythroniums are correctly named, or at least a good close attempt. All the Americans were grown from wild seed from Ron Ratko or Alplains. Since they take so long to grow from seed often they are mixed up by the time I get them to selling size.
Thanks
Susan
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Myself, I don't worry too much about getting caught up in having the "correct" taxonomy, I'm more interested in learning about the plants themselves, their patterns of variation, and their geography, ecology, etc.
I agree with you Ed while I am interested in knowing the correct names of the species it is the plants that are fascinating. It seems that the taxonomists keep moving the goal posts as they move from taxa to taxa as if they are changing the rules to make them say what they are expecting.
To me Erythronium howellii and E. citrinum only differ in that citrinum has the swollen appendages at the base of the floral segments while howellii has none - a similar situation to E. citrinum and nudopetalum. This is all based on morphology of course - the excitement will come when a complete phylogenetic study based on DNA is published.
It is some form of E.oregonum, pale yellow which fades as the flower ages. I received the plant as E.citrinum which it certainly is not.
Gerry most so called E. citrinum I have seen in the UK is either E. oregonum as you describe, or a hybrid so this is common. There are some correctly named plants around and are easily identified from the hybrids and oregonum by the slender shape of the filaments.
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Ed,
I wonder if you could do a big favour and look on my website to see if my Erythroniums are correctly named, or at least a good close attempt. All the Americans were grown from wild seed from Ron Ratko or Alplains. Since they take so long to grow from seed often they are mixed up by the time I get them to selling size.
Thanks
Susan
Susan,
I took a look at the photos of the western Erythroniums on your web site and to be honest is is a bit difficult to confirm with certainty any of the white to cream flowered species from your photos because you really need to see the details of the flower parts for the technical confirmation. For example, Erythronium oregonum ssp. oregonum and E. oregonum ssp. leucandrum have the right look to them, but I would like to see the flattened stamen filaments to say for sure. Erythronium howellii should have thin anther filaments and very short style branches (if any), and the appendages found in the base of the inner tepals in E. citrinum should be lacking in E. howellii. E. californicum is similar but it has much longer style branches than Either E. citrinum or E. howellii. E. helenae looks good, note the yellow center to the flower without the zig-zag red or yellow bands. The style should be bent rather than straight. However E. helenae is "supposed" to have yellow anthers (compared to the white anthers of E. californicum). E. multiscapoideum is similar to E. californicum except the inflorescence is branched below ground, making appear that there are two flower stalks. If you would like to follow up on this topic next spring, maybe you could post some more detailed close-up photos on the forum for us to review. But at the level of detail I can see, nothing looks obviously mis-named.
Ed
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Thanks Ed,
That was really helpful to make sure I wasn't making an obvious blunder. When they are growing each one quite distinct by the 'feel' , different flowering time, bulking properties etc. but I know it is difficult to tell by photos.
I will try to take better photos for identification in the spring, but at least people aren't going to be too disappointed when they order.
Susan