Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: johnw on March 31, 2016, 07:19:48 PM
-
Many years ago I bought this Galanthus from Potterton & Martin as G. caucasicus. It is by no means one that bulks up, has rarely if ever flowered, seems rarther fragile and shows no sign of elwesii's or Monostictus (ed. even Hiemalis') reliability or vigour. It comes up extremely late - oftentimes in February in the greenhouse, far later than Baxendale's late, and so one must not start watering the pot until well after Xmas. The leaves last well into July. Now the question is does this match what others grow as the wrongly labelled caucasicus as pointed out by Oliver Wyatt or is it yet another drop?
johnw
-
I doubt very much that there is a single form of wrongly labelled caucasicus. Nor do I see why all forms of elwesii should be vigorous. Granted many elwesii were imported such a long time ago that the less vigorous ones are likely to have been swamped by the more vigorous ones but if you have a form that was singled-out for being particularly late-flowering it might not be particularly vigorous just as 'Virescens' is the first virescent snowdrop but not particularly vigorous or easy.
So I see your question amounting to: "Did the form of Galanthus caucaiscus distributed by Potterton & Martin (if indeed it was a single form) originate there or were they passing on a snowdrop that had been more widely distributed." I don't grow this myself so I cannot answer the question; I fear the answer may have been lost in the mists of time.
I'm told Kath Dryden distributed an 'early' and a 'late' form of Galanthus caucasicus but both of these would now be classed as Galanthus elwesii Hiemalis Group. "Caucasicus" is a broad church.
-
Agree fully and I do believe in those days someone off site was growing snowdrops for P&M and many were mis-labelled. I still am not thoroughly convinced this is a pure elwesii as leaves oftentimes have applanate vernation! Someday it will flower.....
Would Kath's early "caucasicus" still be considered a Hiemalis?
john
-
Would Kath's early "caucasicus" still be considered a Hiemalis?
I cannot answer for the 'early' form as I only got it this year but the 'late' form produces huge leaves on huge bulbs around Xmas time. The leaves are supervolute and look entirely like the leaves of an elwesii. The flowers, which are not huge in proportion, have a single green mark at the tip of the outer petals, exactly like many another elwesii var. monostictus. So, and this is entirely my own opinion, that places it within Hiemalis Group.
-
Last summer I bought G.caucasicus from Leonid Bondarenko in Lithuania, these were originally collected from wild in Caucasus.
This is what is written in his catalogue (http://www.litbulbgarden.com/catalogue3.php#galanthus): Collected in N. W. Caucasus, Karachaevo-Cherkesia. Corresponded fully to description made for G. caucasicus by A. Grossheim in 1940 year. The leaves is bluish, relatively narrow with a specific form (wider in upper part) grown vertically in the beginning and almost compressed to the soil in full development. Genetically it is one of the form of G. alpinus, but in gardens very outstanding form with the leaves, bulbs and time of flowering. So I save old Grossheim's name
EDIT. I changed the photo of the right snowdrop. It came up only about 10 days ago, so it is late, that is why I mixed up these plants.
G.caucasicus is the smaller snowdrop, the bigger one is 'Lapwing' which came up already in February.
-
I also bought another one from him, which was sold as G.caucasicus form,
Found near Belaja river (upper reaches), Northern Caucasus. It is interesting that this Galanthus found in a place disposed between spots where was found by me G. alpinus and G. caucasicus looks like intermediate form between these both, however it looks like G. caucasicus of bigger size. Genetically is one of the form of G. alpinus.
This one is early, and bigger than G.caucasicus, but the main difference is in that it came up much earlier than G.caucasicus, and the leaves are different.
-
Galanthus alpinus (syn. caucasicus) is a species that one rarely sees in cultivation. Leonid Bondarenko seems to me to be ambiguous about where there is a difference between alpinus and what he is calling caucasicus. He talks about 'an intermediate form between the two' but also acknowledges 'Genetically it is one of the form of G. alpinus'. I guess what he is saying is that he groups alpinus into alpinus var. alpinus and alpinus var. caucasicus (and also intermediate forms). But (from the text you quoted) we don't know how he draws the distinction.
-
Yes, I don't know either what the difference is. :-\
These both plants have bigger flowers than G.alpinus var bortkewitschianus, especially the plant in my second pictures.
I hope they start to grow here and multiply whatever they are. :)
-
Hi leena I have just taken a look at leonid's site, really impressive list. I'll order from him later on in the year if things stop as they are, which I'm hoping.
-
Leena - This is a big help. I wonder if in climates such as yours and mine this "caucasicus" is simply a late emerger but flowers outdoors with most other snowdrops as your LBs seem to do? Time for a further inspection to see if mine fit.
johnw
-
Hi leena I have just taken a look at leonid's site, really impressive list. I'll order from him later on in the year if things stop as they are, which I'm hoping.
Hi John, his list online is from last year, I've been waiting for it to updated, but maybe he doesn't sell this year at all.
Leena - This is a big help. I wonder if in climates such as yours and mine this "caucasicus" is simply a late emerger but flowers outdoors with most other snowdrops as your LBs seem to do? Time for a further inspection to see if mine fit.
I think after a while many "early" snowdrops have adjusted themselves to colder climate and start to come up and flower later. They are still earlier than late ones but here the difference is not so much as in warmer climate. I expect these LB snowdrops to come up later next year, this was their first spring here.
-
I hope he does
-
I have to agree Leena, we are victims of season compression, at least with snowdrops. Having said that some of the late ones in the greenhouse are also late outdoors, Baxendale's Late comes to mind. With other plants like rhodos we have a very long season due to the cool springs through to about 21 June.
I just had a good look at my "caucasicus" and they might fit with the first group above though the leaf widening near the tip is barely perceptible and the vernation looks decidedly applanate!
john
-
If I was head of Ofdrop, the Office of Snowdrop Regulation & Nomenclature, I would ban the use of caucasicus on the basis that it has been used in so many different contexts in the past that to 'recycle' the name now just causes confusion.
-
Perhaps I should call my plants G.alpinus.
I had a mix-up earlier, and I now edited my posts to have the right pictures to the right descriptions. Sorry!
I had planted these snowdrops last summer side by side, and made a note which one was which from right to left, but G.caucasicus wasn't flowering yet when I took the pictures and I thought it was just a sidebulb of 'Lapwing'. Now that it is flowering I noticed my mistake, and it also explains that what I had previously marked as G.caucasicus was G.caucasicus form (and the snowdrop looking like G.elwesii was in fact nameless G.elwesii). Now the pictures are of the right plants!
Bondarenkos's G.caucasicus really is late flowering and leaves match his description.
-
I was talking to Joe yesterday and he said that G.alpinus var bortkewitschianus is clonal and grows in only one locality where it does appear in large sheets. This was the reason he gave for mine being so slow.
-
Do var bortkewitschianus and var alpinus cross if planted close to each other?
-
That I don't know Leena, but if G.var bortkewitschianus is sterile ...I quote from the bible
Artjushenko reports that it is sterile, a fact that is supported by a triploid chromosome count of 3n=36.
then I would very much doubt it, the monograph also says
When given suitable growing conditions it will produce small clumps in three to four years, although it can be shy-flowering.
-
G.alpinus var bortkewitschianus is clonal and grows in only one locality where it does appear in large sheets.
There's a snowdrop in a local churchyard that produces some buds but these rarely if ever open. It covers an area of 2 to 3 square metres. Given enough time and non-intervention perhaps it will come to rival G.alpinus var bortkewitschianus? Any variety that is sterile has no actual need to produce flowers and competition between clonal forms must favour those that don't bother to produce flowers and so don't waste their energies. When I grew G. alpinus var. bortkewitschianus I found it reluctant to flower. Then one year it all died out despite having been spread to several different locations.
-
Thanks Brian, if it is triploid and var alpinus diploid, the crossing may be very difficult if impossible (I'm waiting for the new edition for the "bible" so that's why I don't have it).
My G.alpinus var bortkewitschianus has flowered every year since I got it so that is good.
I'm hoping that Bondarenko's G.caucasicus/G.alpinus starts to multiply, it looks like a nice form with flower way above the foliage and late flowering is a bonus here.