Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: mark smyth on January 01, 2008, 04:53:16 PM
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Last year February I was given some bulbs from Dalhousie Castle, Edinburgh. They were named 'Lady Dalhousie Castle Group'. Now that I see them in flower in my garden they are an indistinct plicatus hybrid showing a typical inner mark. Like Martin said in December's thread they shouldn't have been named
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I've mention before now snowdrops taking a year out and then flowering normally. During the 2006 snowdrop season I was given a small non flowering bulb of G. 'Greenfinch'. Last year, 2007, it didnt appear so I thought a Narcissus fly has got it. Today while weeding I was very happy to see it above ground with a flower bud.
Last year I transplanted my Rosemary Burnham look-alike snowdrop to a more favourable location (I hope). I found three bulbs when I dug it up. The smallest of these never produced any leaves last year but has produced a shoot this year. On the other hand, I have had whole clumps of Galanthus reginae olgae vanish without a trace from one year to the next.
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tell us more about your lookalike please
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I'm going to Colesbourne on Sunday January 27th to collect my goodies. Is anyone else going?
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I'm going on Saturday 26th January to get mine. Looks like we'll miss each other by a day. Are you going to the Gala this year?
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No. It clashed with the AGS Ulster Group biennial event
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tell us more about your lookalike please
Three years ago I was walking down a busy street when I noticed a green snowdrop growing by a lamp post!
The lamp post was on the pavement side of a hedge in a lightly wooded front garden with many snowdrops growing, mostly elwesii. I always pay attention to snowdrops but this one was very distinct. I knocked on the door, introduced myself to the owner, explained my interest in snowdrops and she allowed me to borrow a fork, dig up the green snowdrop and take it home.
But it turned out this was as magic garden where I found several other green snowdrops and where more turn up every year. The owner of the garden became interested in snowdrops and has given other examples to snowdrop collectors and growers. The amount of green on the outer petals varies from one bulb to another. The bulbs seem to be randomly distributed and have not formed clumps but I am excited this year because my green bud means I now have two distinct green-flowering bulbs from the one I started with. I have included two photographs taken last year in the owner's garden. Neither of these is exactly the same as the one I have - I will post a picture of mine when it opens.
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Where is the rest of this topic gone Maggi!
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Sorry i just found it!
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ooohhh a home forum spot for those suffering from a dose
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Yes we think that all you poor galantophiles deserve your very own listing where I can keep an eye on you and your
pretty little sna dreeps.
Opps did I say pretty, I didn't mean it. 8)
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For those who have not seen yet we have added a new heading for Galanthus under Bulbs to the forum home page. The place for Snow drop fans.
All the galanthus topics will be moved here also the technical stuff breeding has been seperated out into its own thread.
You may have to reactivate (Notify) the threads to recieve the email alerts.
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thanks Ian, Maggi or Fred!
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Whoo hoo!! We've been upgraded!! Our very own place in the sun? ;D Well in the cyberspace sun anyway!! Thanks to those involved, and also in anticipation of the other Galanthus threads you'll be moving here as you get the chance.
Thanks again!! ;D 8)
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Recognition? Fame? No common sense. Thanks to all ;D
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I'm thoroughly confused! It's great for Galanthus to have its own little section on the forum but this topic used to be called Galanthus PRE January 2008. "Galanthus Early January 2008" remains under Bulbs so I don't know where to post any more. Is there a moderator in the house?
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Brain, who has no common sense? ???
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wow very nice. When you get two bulbs get one twinned. I know an honest - I hope - twinscaler
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Anthony I have just realised that it is, in fact, a dastardly plot to herd us up a corner of the playground out of the way :o - tee hee.
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Into a corner of the playground, behind the bike sheds, next to the boiler room.... I hope you'll be very comfortable :o
I think I have found and moved most of the snowie pages now :-\
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In case you are scratching your head over who is talking to who, Maggi has merged two threads into this one, so discussions since the start of January are now a bit fragmented. Presumably things will settle down hereafter.
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when I just looked at my emails and saw 17 Galanthus posts I got excited and then realised Maggi has been very busy reading all last year's pots and moving them
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Maggi,
Thank you for all your wonderful work. I have found it a truly moving experience!! ;D
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Ooo, how exciting. A new home! Thanks Maggie :-*
I was just looking on ebay with all this chat about snowdrops being on there. I was shocked to see something that I paid £14 for last year at wisley sold for almost £60 on ebay last week!!!
Expensive Ebay Bulb! (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Galanthus-Heffalump-rare-snowdrop_W0QQitemZ130184430672QQihZ003QQcategoryZ42207QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
I see there is also an ebay Diggory already up to £51 with 2 days still to go!....
I would love to own 'Grumpy' but don't think I will be getting it from ebay at those prices!
Happy New Year everyone.
John
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e-bay is definitely not the cheapest place to buy bulbs... I saw and see the same phenomenon with Pleione - often much more expensive than in catalogues from commercial growers ::)
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all the sellers are saying rare to up the bidding. I have bought already and I'm 'watching' others that I would like. I know what they are worth and wont top it. I'm tempted to bid £1million for Diggory for a laugh
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nivalis Poculiform Group for £20!! I need to sell my entire collection and rebuy at normal prices
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That's how some people make a (bulb)living Mark ;D
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I would hope it isnt a forum member being silly with their money. It could be Maggi!?
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Here's the Scottish snowdrop, 'Lady Dalhousie Castle Group', that shouldnt have a name other than G. nivalis x plicatus (G. x valentinei). Rubbish photo because of the poor weather
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I would love to own 'Grumpy' but don't think I will be getting it from ebay at those prices!
John
John - yes 'Grumpy' is a bit of fun with its markings on the inners - mine has been flowering now for about 10 days or so - lovely grey leaves and big flowers.
Monksilver Nursery were selling it last year and Phil Cornish had it on his List in 2005 (both at prices below the current ebay offering)
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I would hope it isnt a forum member being silly with their money. It could be Maggi!?
Don't be daft, Mark, I only spend money on things with a resale value and with narcissus fly about etc, etc, that doesn't include snowies!
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Thank you for all your wonderful work. I have found it a truly moving experience!!
Thanks, Paul, I think the earth moved for me, too ::)
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Maggi,
Well you've shifted enough discussion threads that the Earth's tilt has probably changed, due to the shift in the balance here in the SRGC. ;D
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I'd like Grumpy too. Might make me less so? ;D I'm going to totally redo my snowdrop border this spring. I think Mark's idea is good as it would appear that there is nothing competing for space at snowdrop time? The summer show is almost like a fantastic floral carpet rolled out over the top, just for the summer and then carefully rolled up in the autumn so the snowies can have the bed to themselves?
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Naming Snowdrops?
It seems to be quite widely accepted that some named snowdrop cultivars are too ordinary or too similar to others to justify a name. On the other hand, if a cultivar gets distributed it seems to me to be good science for there to be a means of tracing it back to its point of origin and so it is beneficial if it is distributed with a name. But what name should you use for similar snowdrops from the same location? There does not seem to be form of nomenclature used for snowdrops that would indicate this. Would it not be better if the Greatorex doubles were known as Greatorex 1, 2, 3 etc since they share a common point of origin? Or if the yellow plicates Wendy's Gold, Bill Clarke and Wandlebury Ring were known as Wandlebury 1, 2 & 3 since their genetic stock is all from this location?
The reason I ask is that I am wondering what to do about the garden I found that bears elwesii snowdrops with strong green markings on the outer petals. Bulbs from this garden have been distributed unnamed to several collectors, as well as Avon Bulbs and Colesbourne. I suspect some of the recipients have only a hazy notion of the point of origin of these bulbs and may think that they hold clones of the same bulb rather than distinct bulbs. I was thinking of asking the owner of the garden if I could name the bulb I found there after them (H. D.) followed by the numeral 1 to indicate it was the first one to be found. Then the others could be H.D. 2, 3, 4 etc. because, to the best of my knowledge, they are all different.
Does this seem sensible or control freakery? Or is there a better means of nomenclature?
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Naming after a garden or garden owner is fine. I wouldnt pass something brand new to the big boys. They will immediately twinscale it and before you know it's up for a PC and has a big price tag attached.
I think Greatorex numbered all of snowdrops before naming them
Of course there are too many plain snowdrops being named. Just look at the Lady Dalhousie snowdrop. It's nothing special
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Naming after a garden or garden owner is fine. I wouldnt pass something brand new to the big boys. They will immediately twinscale it and before you know it's up for a PC and has a big price tag attached....
I wouldn't pass something brand new on to the big boys myself but it's not down to me in this instance. I'm afraid PC means Personal Computer to me. You'll have to explain what it stand for in this context.
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Alan PC here stands for Preliminary Commendation of the RHS at one of the London Shows (I don't think it applies to other shows, but somebody will correct me if I am wrong). There is then a First Class Commendation and First Class Certificate and an Award of Merit - all worth noting when looking for a good plant if you are buying. It seems an ideal way of naming a worthwhile plant to name it after the gardener or garden eg Primrose Warburg and South Hayes this also gives meaning to where it was sourced.
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PC is a term used by the RHS awards committees.... it means Preliminary Commendation and is the award given to a promising new introduction/raising to indicate potential and to encourage the plant to be further grown and brought back to the committee for future evaluation.
The "next" award would be an AM.. Award of Merit, and the pinnacle is an FCC.... First Class Certificate for a realyy fabulous plant which has proved its worth over some time. For plants which are considered as outstanding garden plants in most situations ( a dodgy criterion, in most cases) there is the AGM.... Award of Garden Merit. For excellence in cultivating a particular plant, there is the award to the grower, A CC ... Cultural Commendation and there is a BC... Botanical Certificate, which is given to a plant of purely botanical interest ::)
As to the "Bloggs Hill , 2, 3 " version of naming, as far as I am aware this method is not permissable under current regulations by the assorted governing bodies.
Hope this is of some assistance!
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....As to the "Bloggs Hill , 2, 3 " version of naming, as far as I am aware this method is not permissable under current regulations by the assorted governing bodies.
Hope this is of some assistance!
Maggi - Is there a permitted method of designating different cultivars from a common source or location? Or would you have to do as Greatorex did and find a set of names with a common theme (Shakespeare's heroines in his case).
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Alan, if you have a group of quite similar snowdrops (especially from the same seed parent or same locality) the accepted route is to call them the '.........group' as Ian Christie has done with his group of selections from the Brechin Castle Estate, called 'Castle Group'.
This has in the past been used for groups of similar snowdrops which people have had problems identifying as individual cultivars, or ones which to less experienced eyes look almost identical but which can be told apart by the most experienced growers.
You can then name individuals within the group if, after garden trails and proving themselves in a number of gardens, they are considered truly worthy of naming.
The '.....group' approach lets people know that they have a plant which is one of a group of similar plants, so they know it won't neccessarily be the identical cone of another plant known as '.....group'. It also tells people that, if no actual cultivar name goes with the bulb, it hasn't yet been considered good enough to name. This helps with identifying the origin on an un-named bulb.
While the use of numbers or letters to identify individuals within such a group is not acceptable when applying a cultivar name (under botanical naming rules) no-one can stop you using any system of numbers and or letters as simply an identifying tag to keep track of different clones that may later be named properly. If you want to do this, I'd suggest making the identifying tag as unlike a name as possible, so it's clear it's not meant as a name. Perhaps something like Selected Seedling No. 1
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On the topic of naming snowdrops: I, with a lot of help, have been looking into snowdrops of an Irish origin or connection since last spring and would like to add the following:
Many snowdrops, and probably other plants also, are named unofficially and never put through the rigours of comparison with already named snowdrops by a taxonomist. Given the level of interest in snowdrops this is not surprising but there are consequences which those interested in snowdrops will suffer as a result of this practice. We will encounter snowdrops which are not sufficiently different to have been named at all in the first place. We will also come across common snowdrops which have been given a new name to make them once more new and saleable.
Though it may be a slow, irritating and pedantic approach it really is the best way to go to have snowdrops submitted to a taxonomist for proper comparison and subsequent naming. It would be to the enthusiast's advantage to have matters regularised.
And, here is one flowering at the moment - well, yesterday actually as it was lying very prostrate and forlorn this morning after a night of heavy frost.
Galanthus 'Paradise Giant'
Paddy
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Paddy 'Paradise Giant' is an elwesii yet your bulbs show typical plicatus leaves
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That's a new word to me Paddy - 'regularised'. :P
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Now Anthony,
Here is today's vocabulary lesson from Dictionary.com:
Paddy
Dictionary.com Unabridged
reg·u·lar·ize /ˈrɛgyələˌraɪz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[reg-yuh-luh-rahyz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -ized, -iz·ing. to make regular.
Also, especially British, reg·u·lar·ise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1615–25; regular + -ize]
—Related forms
reg·u·lar·i·za·tion, noun
reg·u·lar·iz·er, noun
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This regularise
verb
1. bring into conformity with rules or principles or usage; impose regulations; "We cannot regulate the way people dress"; "This town likes to regulate" [syn: regulate] [ant: deregulate]
2. make regular or more regular; "regularize the heart beat with a pace maker" [syn: regularize]
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
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Mark,
I shall look more carefully at this clump and read the label this time to be sure it is 'Paradise Giant'. I must admit that I simply took the photograph and based identification on location in the garden rather than checking the label to be certain. I'll look into it but not today, hardly tomorrow, possibly on Wednesday.
Paddy
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How do you find chipped bark over bulbs?
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Mark, I just look and there it is. ::)
Paddy, didn't check my dictionary. :-[ My Concise Oxford English Dictionary (8th ed. 1990) includes it at the end with the American spelling and "also -ise". It just means to regulate, and I would always say that you "regulate the heart beat with a pace maker". Looks to me like a word in the same bracket as "burglarise", "hospitalise" etc. where a noun is changed into a verb, whether there is a perfectly good one already or not, by adding "ise" or "ize" to the end of it? :-\
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Good Grief, a Scot (?) lecturing an Irishman about the finer points of English...... ::)
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Chipped bark - over anything - I found it blew about when it got dry. (.... so when I looked there it wasn't ;))
While we are on the subject of top dressing. Fine grit = cat litter but very coarse grit and heavier 'shingle' is better. Sandstone and slate are my favourites (but not mixed :)) Slate is not brilliant for bulbs as it lies flat and can block growing shoots, causing some shoot damage.
My snowdrops are covered by fallen leaves which are damp this time of year and usually do stay put.
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Mark,
I have bark only on one bed which has bulbs, a mixture of cyclamen and snowdrops and it works perfectly well; never gave me any bother or gave any trouble to the snowdrops. It seems to suit the cyclamen very well indeed. The second bed on which I use it has cyclamen only.
Tony,
It has never blown away on me though bird pecking about can disturb it. Throughout the rest of the garden leaves are what cover the snowdrops, in places to quite a depth, deep enough to make it impossible to find labels and emerging snowdrops snouts at this time of year but it is the perfect mulch, I imagine.
Paddy
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Second attempt - the first one just seemed to disappear after I pressed the 'Post' button!
Mark - I find that Blackbirds are the main problem with chipped bark - when it is wet they tend to root around in it, looking for worms etc, leaving 'holes', as well as scattering the chipped bark around in places where it was not intended!
Tony - with the advent of our milder winters, which in turn seems to mean that the slugs etc are now active for most of the winter, I tend to remove fallen leaves as these encourage the slugs, with a much higher incidence of the new shoots of the snowdrops being 'grazed'.
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Anthony, can you tell me what magnification I'd need to see leaf stomata? This is to do with telling if a plant is teraploid (large stomata) or diploid (smaller stomata) and originates from discussions in the galanthus breeding thread, but I'm not sure if you read that thread.
I'm thinking of trying to get hold of a microscope and wondered what magnification would be required to study stomata.
I should remember (roughly) from A-level biology but (for someone who once wanted to be a botanist) I wasn't as attentive as I should have been - I once got marks deducted in an essay for saying that a definition of an animal was that it could "move of its own coition". :-\
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Of course I meant "volition" but that didn't stop the teacher reading it out in class so everyone could have a good laugh (though he had to explain "coition" first, for the benefit of most of the class).
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Er Yes, that would have got a bit of a chuckle from the class. ;)
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Here's a couple of photos of my elwesii 'Fred's Giant' very ordinary by today's standards and most likely not 'Fred's' at all. The petal with the mistake is more 'Fred' like. It's not very giant either.
The so called 'Cotswold Farm' is developing in to an elegant snowdrop but still not woth a name.
One of my 'Castlegars' has a mistake on an inner petal just like 'Fred' or is that petal showing what 'Fred' should look like?
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I seem to remember that when I was a child there was a vogue for "funny-face" pansies (so named because the marks on the flower resembled a face). I wonder if one day there will be a vogue for sad-faced snowdrops? Is it just me or does anyone else see a sad-faced clown in the markings on Mark's second picture?
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It's not just you. I always see faces, but the sad clown hadn't materialised until after you'd mentioned it and I went back for a look. You're not alone!! ::)
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I imagine there are many who might think us sad to be looking for faces on snowdrops at all.
Is there a need for a new place on the forum - "Seekers of Sad Faces"?
Better to look on all snowdrops as happy plants, perhaps.
Mark,
Your posting is a perfect example of the muddle in the naming of snowdrops: You refer to and "not very giant either".
'Fred's Giant' as "most likely not 'Fred's at all."
Also, you have the "so-called 'Cotswold Farm' ....not worth a name" and then we have "'Castlegar' has a mistake on an inner petal."
This would lead one to wonder if any of them are what they portend to be at all and certainly indicates a general muddle with snowdrop names.
Anthony, this is a situation which needs to be regularised!
Paddy
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Dear God! After reading through all that lot, I'll be eternally grateful that there are perhaps a dozen or so species/varieties of Galanthus available in NZ, and we aren't obliged to go through all this ridiculous angst about naming - of bulbs which are (come on boys and girls, admit it) little white flowers with a few green markings. Very pretty of course, but still, just little white flowers with a few green markings. I'll go on enjoying my snowdrops in season, and be happy that I have a ( or another) life.
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Dear God! After reading through all that lot, I'll be eternally grateful that there are perhaps a dozen or so species/varieties of Galanthus available in NZ, and we aren't obliged to go through all this ridiculous angst about naming - of bulbs which are (come on boys and girls, admit it) little white flowers with a few green markings. Very pretty of course, but still, just little white flowers with a few green markings. I'll go on enjoying my snowdrops in season, and be happy that I have a ( or another) life.
mois ausie ;D
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Your'e missing the point Paddy. These have got one petal different from the other two
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mois ausie ;D
David,
Not understanding at all but guessing..... you just said "I agree"? I "think" that mois is me (or I) in french isn't it?
Can definitely tell that Lesley hasn't been infected by the white fever yet!! ;)
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Good Morning to you Lesley,
Yes, you are fortunate to be spared the nuisance of the inconsistencies of snowdrop names.
While a certain amount of mis-naming occurs by mistake, confusion or forgetfulness which, while unfortunate, is part and parcel of our human nature, there is also a certain amount of unnecessary mis-naming through cultivars which do not deserve to be named being named and through the deliberate renaming of cultivars to create a market for sellers.
They are indeed very pretty little white flowers, with their green markings, and if you can enjoy a dozen species/varieties then another could well enjoy two dozen and still happily have a life.
I suppose I came to make this comment from the background of researching Irish snowdrops - those which originated in Ireland or had an Irish connection - and found that several snowdrops were being passed about under several different names. In itself not the end of the world but should these come to be offered commercially as different plants I feel it would be very incorrect. From my own point of interest I simply sought to sort out some of the muddle attached to the naming of Irish snowdrops.
I'm sure you would take a similar interest in the naming of a group of plants which were of interest to you.
Enjoy the snowdrops and my apologies if I upset your day.
Paddy
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water off a duck's back!
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Anthony, can you tell me what magnification I'd need to see leaf stomata? This is to do with telling if a plant is teraploid (large stomata) or diploid (smaller stomata) and originates from discussions in the galanthus breeding thread, but I'm not sure if you read that thread.
I'm thinking of trying to get hold of a microscope and wondered what magnification would be required to study stomata.
I should remember (roughly) from A-level biology but (for someone who once wanted to be a botanist) I wasn't as attentive as I should have been - I once got marks deducted in an essay for saying that a definition of an animal was that it could "move of its own coition". :-\
Stomata are usually quite large, so X100 would be more than adequate and an eye piece graticule for measuring would be useful. I must have a look myself. What you need is a 'peel' from the underside to give a transparent single cell layer from the lower epidermis.
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mois ausie ;D
In your case Paul, tois Aussie. ;D
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Two aussies? ???
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Now, Mark, just getting back to you.
I wasn't making a point about your snowdrops or your comments on them, just using your post as an example to follow up on earlier postings re naming etc. to show how easily differences can appear and consequently confusion regard naming.
For example: you obviously have a snowdrop named/labelled in your garden as 'Fred's Giant' that has exhibited features not consistent with the standard description of 'Fred's Giant'. Should you now go off and name that something else, 'Mark's Giant' for example just to pick a name, it could very probably revert to true form in subsequent years and then there would be two identical plants with different names. Confusion reigns. It just shows how easily differences arise and how easily this could lead to confusion in naming.
Longer assessment times and assessment by people best qualified to do so would eliminate this confusion, some of it at least.
Nonetheless, I'm sure we will all continue to pass around plants with 'unofficial' names - "Mark's Snowdrop" for one I might get from you or "The Belfast Snowdrop" for one which originated in Belfast. It is that these names become attached even though they are not officially recognised names at all. But, perhaps, we would be at a loss without this sideline of interest in our plants. A snowdrop I treasure in my garden I call "Helen's Good One" even though no such named snowdrop is listed anywhere and it is not particularly distinctly marked or different. However, its association with Helen Dillon makes it of interest to me.
Maybe making clear that a name is an unofficial name when passing on plants might be a help.
Paddy
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Doesn't 'tois' mean you Paul?
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It's moi and toi.... aussi ! Awright?
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Aw shucks Maggi. I was close. ;) Moi ausie means "me also" but to Paul toi Aussie was meant to mean "you Australian".
Anthony, it is 'aussi' .... also, as well, too......not ausie ! M
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Maybe making clear that a name is an unofficial name when passing on plants might be a help.
Is there an official registrar of Galanthus?
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Yes there is Diane. It's Matt Bishop. His folder is packed with the smallest detail of all known snowdrops. Here he is in action and pose
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[quote Is there an official registrar of Galanthus?[/quote]
I think it's the Dutch bulb growers' association, whose name escapes me (KVA.. something).
But you don't need to register a snowdrop to give it a name.
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Martin is right, the International Cultivar Registration Authority for Galanthus is the Royal General Bulbgrowers' Association in Holland (KAVB) - Dr van Scheepen is the Registrar.
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This is where my "every day is a school day" quote comes to life, I had never heard of the KAVB.
Thanks Chris (and Anthony) for expanding my knowledge once again. :)
cheers
John
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It was Thomas Huber and Luit van Delft who taught me the KAVB lesson, re crocus, John.....good that we are able to glean so much from the Forum, isn't it?
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Martin is right, the International Cultivar Registration Authority for Galanthus is the Royal General Bulbgrowers' Association in Holland (KAVB) - Dr van Scheepen is the Registrar.
I wonder how many "named" snowdrops are actually officially registered?
And how would you actually register a snowdrop (or any other bulb for that matter). Do you have to ship a specimen to Holland?
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700+ named I was told last year
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700+ named I was told last year
Which is clearly ludicrous.
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Let me be sure of what you meant: there are 700 total (not added last year)
officially registered snowdrops. Plus unofficial ones.
Many of these may never have been seen since being named?
Or are they only brought to official attention when the intention
is to sell them?
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simply 700+ named
Lesley what about the 10s of 1000s of Narcissus?
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there are 744 listed in the book including names no longer used, lost plants and species
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there are 744 listed in the book including names no longer used, lost plants and species
So that's 744 reported in the latest edition of "Snowdrops" by Bishop, Davies and Grimshaw, plus some more that have cropped up since this was published, plus some others (particularly outside the UK and Ireland) that are not known to these authors and maybe some others that they chose to exclude. However, my question was how many of these have been registered with the Dutch K.A.V.B.? The K.A.V.B. have a web site at http://www.kavb.nl/index.cfm that might provide an answer to this question but it's only in Dutch so I did not get very far.
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I sent an email to them
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I looked at their site and there is a list of registered bulbs,galanthus also I presume,wich is for members only.so I can`t look at them.perhaps Gerard can,he is professionally in bulbs.I think he can tell more about this.
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There's not much anyone can do about the large number of snowdrops named. Some snowdrop species are very varied in small details, like ferns for example, and therefore appeal to collectors (I got a book at Xmas with 960 ferns in it!). Too many so-so snowdrops (especially slight variations within a species, rather than hybrid cultivars - often quite nice things but not different enough to deserve naming) have been named. But there they are, and you can't ban then. Also, you can't ban people from naming things.
As Mark says, there are thousands of registered daffs and probably hundreds of tulips, and by no means all of them are popular plants and widely grown. The best snowdrops will inevitably become the most popular and many less striking ones and less strong-growing ones will go out of favour or die out due to disease. More will be named, and it's all an on-going process.
Unfortunately the publication of the snowdrop book stimulated interest in naming snowdrops that people previously had in their gardens as just snowdrops. That's meant some not very good snowdrops finding their way into the trade and into the swopping circuit which will disappoint (or which people find they have already under a different name) and that's annoying. But it happens with other plants (Primula allionii cultivars, the already mentioned daffs and tulips, auriculas, even crocus!) and isn't the end of the world.
Vive la difference! (but bin the really bad ones).
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Returning to the subject of plant awards from RHS committees... there is often criticism there of too many plants being named ... but then, when a committee decides to make an award to a plant, invariably that award is made " subject to the application of a cultivar name"..... and so the circle widens!
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Become a member!
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Returning to the subject of plant awards from RHS committees... there is often criticism there of too many plants being named ... but then, when a committee decides to make an award to a plant, invariably that award is made " subject to the application of a cultivar name"..... and so the circle widens!
But surely the committee has decided that the plant in question is distinct and has qualities that make it worthy of naming and widespread cultivation in gardens - that being the purpose of the award in the first place. And it'd be impossible to actually give an award to something without a name - otherwise all awards would be something like "Award of Merit to that superb Narcissus triandrus X bulbocodium hybrid we looked at on January 29th 2007, the one with the large sulphur-yellow flower...."
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Well, sometimes what you say is the case, Martin but oftentimes it is just a good plant species which is not particulalry variable and so hardly warrants a new name :-\ :-X ::)
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thanks for the help Gerard >:(
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Well, sometimes what you say is the case, Martin but oftentimes it is just a good plant species which is not particulalry variable and so hardly warrants a new name :-\ :-X ::)
Yes, that's the one problematic case that did occur to me. I suppose awards committees are wary of giving an award to a species generally, because you may get different clones within that species which are better or poorer for garden culture and showing. So they want to award the actual plant shown, and make sure the award isn't applied to less desirable clones, which means the plant has to be given a cultivar name.
In that case, I see what you mean. But it sort of begs the question, why give an award to a clone of a species that isn't different enough or outstanding enough from the basic species. Surely if a species as a whole deserves an award, it should get the A.G.M.
Aren't P.C., A.M. and F.C.C awards given to plants for their merits as show plants, not neccessarily for their garden-worthiness? I thought that was why the RHS brought in the A.G.M., as an award separate to the show awards, to indicate garden-worthiness (either of a species generally or of a specific clone or cultivar).
In which case, a plant of the type you suggest (not particularly outstanding from the species generally) should perhaps be given some kind of separate award for the whole species as a show plant (like and S.P.C for Species Preliminary Commendation.. S.A.M. and S.F.C.C.) in which case a cultivar name then wouldn't be needed.
Ta-da!
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But then of course, the awards committee still have the problem that, although a species generally might be a good show plant, odd poor individuals might crop up that are not good show plants. It would have to be clearly stated and understood that an award to a species for its general show qualities as a species was just that - a general award that meant a species was (generally speaking) good for showing, but not neccessarily every individual.
Which sort of makes a nonsense of the award. So in this case I think I'd agree with you Maggie - probably best not to award a plant unless it is an superb clone that really stands out from the general variablility of the species.
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Just been reading an article about a Snowdrop grower named James Allen who gardened in Shepton Mallet in Somerset. James died in 1906 so he predates the Forum and most! of the members by the odd year or three!
The article says that of Allen's two favourite selections 'Charmer' and 'Galatea', only 'Galatea' has survived to this day. Does anyone know if this statement is still true and if it is does anyone have a picture of 'Galatea'? It goes on to say that one of his most famous selections, 'Magnet' had the seed parent G. nivalis 'Melvillei'. Further selections said to still exist are 'Anne of Geierstein' and 'Robin Hood'. I have a feeling we have had a picture of 'Magnet' posted before but it would be nice to see pictures of them all if they do exist?
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'Charmer', 'Galatea', 'Magnet', 'Anne of Geierstein', 'Robin Hood'. It would be nice to see pictures of them all if they do exist?
Hi David
interesting post. I have Galatea, Magnet and Robin Hood growing in my garden and will post pictures if I manage to get any this year. 'Anne of Gerstein' is still around as I know a forum member has seen it in a garden in Norfolk - and I am sure I saw it for sale from one of the big boys this year.
Charmer - could well be gone forever :(
kind regards
John
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David - 'Galatea' has certainly survived and, in my garden, is just about a week away from opening its flowers (although there is considerable doubt whether this is the same clone that James Allen grew).
The other snowdrops that you mention still exist, and many people would have at least some of them on their Top 20 Lists.
I remain without camera, but I am sure that others will post pictures for you.
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'Anne of Gerstein' is still around as I know a forum member has seen it in a garden in Norfolk - and I am sure I saw it for sale from one of the big boys this year.
Charmer - could well be gone forever :(
John - 'Anne of Geierstein' is, as you say, very much still alive - it is the one with the brittle petals, so not recommended for trying to push back the outer petals to look at the marks on the inners - the outer petals are just as likely to fall off!
Said to be difficult to grow, but I suspect that it is more a question of finding the right growing conditions - whether by luck, or judgement, mine does okay, and has reproduced well, in an open position, but where it does not get direct sun. It was John Morley, of North Green Snowdrops, that you saw offering it this year (one bulb per customer at £25 per bulb).
'Charmer' is indeed believed to be totally extinct.
David - According to the 'Snowdrops' book, in 1886 James Allen claimed to be growing every variety of snowdrop then in cultivation. It says that he was probably the first person to deliberately raise snowdrop seedlings but that, sadly, a combination of botrytis & narcissus fly wiped out most of his selections.
'Robin Hood' is another one of Allen's snowdrops (like 'Galatea') where what is grown under that name today, is not what Allen originally grew under that name.
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Aren't P.C., A.M. and F.C.C awards given to plants for their merits as show plants, not neccessarily for their garden-worthiness? I thought that was why the RHS brought in the A.G.M., as an award separate to the show awards, to indicate garden-worthiness (either of a species generally or of a specific clone or cultivar).
Quite so, Martin, theey are awards for "plants for exhibition"
In which case, a plant of the type you suggest (not particularly outstanding from the species generally) should perhaps be given some kind of separate award for the whole species as a show plant (like and S.P.C for Species Preliminary Commendation.. S.A.M. and S.F.C.C.) in which case a cultivar name then wouldn't be needed
A good idea, Martin... perhaps you'd like to write to the RHS making the suggestion?
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Thanks Chris and John for your replies. If anyone else has pictures of these (alleged) old varieties I would love to see them.
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Ask and you receive
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'Robin Hood' is another one of Allen's snowdrops (like 'Galatea') where what is grown under that name today, is not what Allen originally grew under that name.
Which surely highlights the stupidity of this whole naming thing. In another 25 years what has been named in the last 25, will have been composted or around your gardens as something quite different anyway.
Why don't you face it? In 99 of 100 cases, naming a plant such as another Galanthus (or Tulip, or Narcissus, or Dahlia or bearded or Siberian Iris et al), is nothing more than someone's little ego trip. As Martin says "vive la difference" but dear God, let there BE a difference.
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but dear God, let there BE a difference.
Agreed.
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Mark, thanks! I wont comment on how similar they seem to me!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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A particular problem with snowdrops and naming is that there simply has been so little deliberate breeding and selection of good cultivars by experienced growers who know what to look for when selecting good, distinct plants - unlike in most other genera, like daffs, tulips, lilies, even crocus, where there has been lots of deliberate breeding and careful selection by experienced amateurs and professionals.
For decades snowdrop people have looked for their "new snowdrops" almost entirely amongst self-sown seedlings and chance hybrids in old gardens and woods. With hundreds of people all looking for anything that looks even slightly different in a swathe of snowdrops, it's all a tad haphazard and bound o lead to lots of so-so stuff being picked out and named by people who have no way of knowing if twenty other people have also picked out something just like that and named it.
If more new cultivars had come from experienced growers deliberately breeding, there'd have be more quality control, more careful selection and I'm sure fewer named cultivars. After all, few professional breeders name all their flowers after themselves - it's less of an ego-trip (as Lesley put it) and more a qustion of wanting to do a proper job of breeding and selection and not wanting to be associated with sub-standard plants.
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And how would you actually register a snowdrop (or any other bulb for that matter). Do you have to ship a specimen to Holland?
[/quote]about 30 bulbs of a flowerable size send in before november1, 1 or 2 names you would like to give it, small description about the name and species origin.It will be jugded on uniformity, stability and if its not the same like some other already registerd snowdrops.After 2 years observing and found good enough, it gets official registrated.
And the other important thing is you have to leave about 65 euro(inclusiv VAT) at the KAVB office.
Drs Johan van Scheepen is always very helpful about several questions in bulbmatters, although it takes a while before you get a reply.Its better to contact him by phone 0031252536950.
regards Gerard
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30 bulbs, Gerard? Wow! If you had to send 30 Gal. 'Diggory', at £50 a time in the catalogues now, that'd be £1,500 worth of bulbs. The 65 Euro charge seems peanuts in comparison! ;D
I think it's right to say, isn't it? that registration of bulb names is mainly for professional growers who have raised large stocks of very commercial verieties for the general bulb market and want to get their name registered and accepted by the bulb trade so their cultivar will be stocked and sold. So it's very much a commercial thing, along with registering cultivar 'trademark' names and claiming plant breeder rights.
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Two years of observing ----
Does this mean that there is a place in Holland where all the registered
snowdrops are growing?
Can we visit?
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There is certainly a place where vast numbers of old Tulip varieties are grown, Diane, because I know Ian visited there and was most impressed. A sort of growing museum!
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Gerard, what do you normally use your oryzalin on if not on snowdrops? You say you have a lot of it. Do you use it on lilies?
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We do use it on the lillie scales to make them tetraploid, about the snowdrops registration after those 2 years you can have the snowdrops back if you like.Otherwise they end up in the bin or the collection of the KAVB. For tulips there is the Hortus Bulborum and it is still in Limmen i believe and they grow tulips from over 400 years old till now, google a bit on the net and you will find it.
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David, again, ask and you receive! Galanthus hippolyta
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I heard back from the registrar in Holland
"Dear Mr Smyth,
We are at present in the process of incorporating all Galanthus cultivars
which are published in the book Snowdrops: A monograph of cultivated
Galanthus by Bishop, Davis & Grimshaw. Besides that we have a few cultivars
which are extra to this book. So until we have finished and checked our
input of the database, a list will not be made.
yours sincerely,"
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David, again, ask and you receive! Galanthus hippolyta
Mark, thanks, was I wrong, is it on your Site?
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It's not there. I dont know how I missed it well, when I havd to search through 6 years of image folders It would be very easy to over look one or more
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Brian was it a local lecture that Joe was at?
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Yes Mark, Norfolk branch of the NCCPG...but open national members and also to guests at £1.50, and I have to say Joe is a super lecturer. ('Course his plants are good too ;D)
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Hi, Rob, welcome to the Forum.
I'm going to merge this topic with the existing topic "Galanthus, January 2008"
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=947.0
Cheers,
Maggi Moderator
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If all your snowdrops are in pots you should bring them inside for a while to open the flowers before taking a photo - usually called "the kitchen treatment" - and the reminds me I have some in the kitchen that I forgot about
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oddly mrs thompson is in flower now, she split into 2 bulbs this year, but sadly the flowers are quite ordinary
Rob, when Mrs Thompson has settled in and made big bulbs (best planted in the garden, the bulbs may stay small and keep splitting in a pot) the flowers are semi-double, with more outer petals. Then it looks much more impressive. When the bukbs are small and the flowers single it looks like Gal. Ketton, which is a nice cultivar with nice flowers but not as impressive as Mrs Thompson when she's got all her outer petals.
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Or it twin-scapes, producing twin flowers. Apparently it varies according to how it feels about it that particular year/day/weather condtion etc.
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Typical woman!
Paddy
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Typical woman!
Paddy
Ouch!!!
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Gee Paddy, your game. I think you'll be owing LOTS of chocolate for that comment!! Depending of course whether she-who-does-not-have-the-white-fever sees it of course. Then again, she does have eagle eyes and usually finds these things. ;D
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Oh, I saw it , the minute it was written!
I was just thinking what a finely shaped soul Mrs Thompson is and how, with a figure like that, "she" can get away with her flighty behaviour 8)
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I don't envy your your soil conditions, Rob.... we are lucky to have a good sandy loam as our garden soil and we are grateful for it... also, flooding is something I can't abide.... I'm very keen on warm, dry feet and don't see why my plants should be so very different ;) ;D
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Disappointed, Maggi, Very disappointed.
After planting a good jibe like that I expected a response with more fire. I can only live in hope until Lesley wakes up on the other side of the world.
Typical woman, totally unpredictable!
Paddy
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Typical woman, totally unpredictable!
Paddy
Double ouch!!!
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Paddy, I had just been given a delicious chocolate praline by the BD, so I was feeling unusually mellow 8)
I expect that you are right - Lesley will not let you off so lightly :D
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does it seem a bit early to flower this year? im sure mrs thompson flowers later usualy?
Yes, my Mrs Thompson are usually later than this. Their shoots are up but no flowers showing yet.
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I do also have a early flowering nivalis which shows the same flowerappearance as your mrs Thompson.
I found it a copple years ago in some ordinary nivalis, it shows 4 to 4 or 5 to5 inner and outer petals.
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Here is my Colesbourne Colossus (not really that big but a nice plant). I show 2 shots one with flash and one without. Just shows how much the flash will lose the backgound - a good trfick if that is what you want. In this case I like the plant in context and also tit looks more natural
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Nice semi-double, Gerard. I'd try some plicatus pollen on it (and some of its pollen on a good plicatus) to see what you get.
Ian, I prefer the shot with flash as I can see the snowdrops better! ;D
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I just have removed the pollen and put some on of a monostictus, there are more flowers of these to come and i still have some on my program
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Gerard,
I like that 4-4, 5-5 one. Given it is stable in that regard it would make a fascinating clump. Purists may hate it, but I love it!! ;D
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This is my snowdrop of the moment (flowering early this year). The recent rains have left it splattered with mud, but still very distinctive.
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Rosemary?
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Here are a couple of groups from my garden today. 'Atkinsii', elwesii 'Haydn' and gracilis
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Thank you Paul,
Its stabile for 3 years now,only the small bulbsize give 3 to 3 petals. The big ones however 5 and up give more inner and outer petals in the same number.I had this one on a KAVB show in february 2006 and no one had ever seen such a snowdrop before, and there were lots of experts like Cees Breed.
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Rosemary?
You mean G. elwesii Rosemary Burnham, Mark? No. It is an unnamed elwesii that looks quite similar to that one. I found it as a solitary bulb three years ago and this is only the third time I have seen it in flower but this year I find I now have two flowering bulbs (and one smaller offset). So I know it comes back true each year and so do its offsets; a major step in building-up my confidence that this snowdrop is worthy of cultivation and an eventual name.
Moreover it has several sisters or cousins, subsequently found in the same garden where I found the original (which I have mentioned before). These are not just clones because the green marks on the outer petals differ. They have manifested as solitary flowers so it is quite imporatnat that I have had one for several years and managed to bulk it up a little. And, yes Mark, I will consider getting it twin-scaled.
(Edited on 14/1/08 to correct a factual error).
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Oh yes, I forgot already after a few days of you telling us
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Alan B.... Shame on you, could you not have given your poor mud-spattered little snowie a quick wash before you took her photo? ??? Same comment goes to someone else, can't remember who, who showed a other mud splashed flowers recently...... :P You chaps profess such admiration for the white flowers and then show this disrespect... really, I am shocked by this behaviour :o
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Go and have some chocolate Maggi. You'll feel much better!! ;)
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Good advice, Paul . I may be a little tetchy today ( okay then... MORE tetchy..) because our heating broke down yesterday and it's perishing in here. :( Even worse than usual :P
And... cold chocolate is never as tasty as warm... :-\
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Maggi,
If only your heating broke down then I assume your stove still works? If so, nothing is better than hot chocolate to warm you up...... or you could go curl up with the BD for warmth?? :o ;D
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Well that is another reason I'm tetchy... the BD got up and left me to start gathring kit for his NZ trip! :-X I've had two cups of hot chocolate today already..... it's 11.28am now !!!! ::)
I could go outside to cheer myself up by admiring the snowdrops, but since there is only one... and I mean ONE single flower, not even one CLUMP, out at the minute... and it's raining... I think I'll just stay here and moan ::)
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I think I'll just stay here and moan ::)
Moan away Maggie. A problem shared is a problem halved!
cheers
John
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Alan B.... Shame on you, could you not have given your poor mud-spattered little snowie a quick wash before you took her photo?
I was in the garden and in a hurry so the photo was more in the way of a candid shot by a paparazzi than a carefully staged photo shoot.
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Alan B.... Shame on you, could you not have given your poor mud-spattered little snowie a quick wash before you took her photo?
I was in the garden and in a hurry so the photo was more in the way of a candid shot by a paparazzi than a carefully staged photo shoot.
Alan B:
Please be careful ......Maggi like to gives all members special names.......so your name could be :
Snowdrop -Papazzi
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Juat for you, Maggi.
A chocolate creation of Ben Hur from the Museu de la Xocolata in Barcelona.
Paddy
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Paddy can't wait till the next hot day ;D
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Such a kind thought, Paddy. I've always had a problem with chocolate creations though... they are so pretty, I could not eat them.... even when I was little, I could not bear to eat my choclate Snata or easter Bunny.... and Lindt make such good ones.... they would grow old and white and never be eaten.... now I enjoy my chocolale in nice blocks, no art to destroy!
Apologies to all you white fever sufferes... and even you, Alan the Paparrazo, for hijacking your thread like this! :-*
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here is an elwesii from greece,sorry its dark but we do not seem to have had daylight today.Two pictures,one to show its small stature and tho other its markings.it is producing two flower scapes
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Very neat and beautifully marked. :)
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Interesting Elwesii Tony. Here is a favourite of mine not yet at its best - and the photo does not show how tall it is - Mrs Macnammara
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Mrs Mac is a fine big goodlooking woman, Ian ::)
Just loving the small fat perfection of your small Greek chap, though, Tony!
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Maggi
It was named after Dillan Thomas's mother in law from whose garden it came. Perhaps she too was a fine woman of outstanding proportions
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Ian, you amaze me! Dylan Thomas is a favourite poet of mine! I'm sure the lady in question was formidable, her daughter had considerable fortitude, I reckon, anyway!
Perhaps she too was a fine woman of outstanding proportions
She may also have liked chocolate!! ::)
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This wouldn't be the guy who wrote Under Mylkwood would it ;D
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That's the fellow, Ian.... I have heard there is a new, updated film version coming out from Yakult Studios with added lacto-bacillus and omega 3oils included :o ::)
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Tony I could be wrong but I think your snowdrop could be a hybrid with gracilis. One leaf shows a slight twist
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Maggi could be a boat bobbing pain in the ::)
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Maggi could be a boat bobbing pain in the
Ian, would you care to rephrase that? I maybe about to take umbrage :o
It's not something I've been called before, I must say..... you'd better have been meaning to bad mouth the dear departed Mrs Macnamara ::)( She must be dead by now??)
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Tony I could be wrong but I think your snowdrop could be a hybrid with gracilis. One leaf shows a slight twist
Wow, that was well-spotted Mark. But a trip to my local garden centre yesterday revealed a huge range of sizes and markings amongst the elwesii on sale for £2.99 for a pot with 6-8 bulbs! There was one there I could not resist and I would have taken its photgraph if it had not been so windy today.
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wind? When there is a will ...
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Tony I could be wrong but I think your snowdrop could be a hybrid with gracilis. One leaf shows a slight twist
This could lead me to being struck off-is there any difference between these two species?
Mine are all my own seed collections and gracilis is not known from this site and I have others in all shapes and sizes.I have a pot of gracilis from Ray Cobb and they look just like some of my elwesii.
here is a picture from last year of some more from the same batch.I will have more to show over the next couple of weeks
He has seen the plants on the same site and was unable to make a definitive identification. I am visiting him tomorrow (he is my oldest friend) and i will take it for his opinion and report back.
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Again I could be wrong but those leaves are missing typical elwesii hoods ie one leaf from each bulb - the leaf that wraps around the other while emerging - has a pinched tip. Thise flowers scream gracilis/hybrid to me. I'm willing to be shot down. Where's Martin when we need him?
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Ian,
Mrs. Macnamara is a lady who performs very well indeed, I believe. Good to have the occasional woman who does so!
I was reading up on this snowdrop in the last few days after Chris S. passed comment on it and it gets great praise, particularly making an excellent display in a good-sized clump. I haven't got it at present but must chase it down.
Paddy
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Paddy did you ever look at your group of plicatus?
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I haven't got it at present but must chase it down.
Now, Paddy, if Mary catches you chasing down Mrs Macnamara, there'll be hell to pay, I don't doubt :o
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Maggi didn't get your last remark before the tribe arrived for dinner. Phew they are gone now and its peaceful again. The remark related to all of the unnecessary aids to digestion etc. you are just obviously too sensitive. So much so that you obviously missed Paddy's damming with faint praise assessment of the female gender and allowed this without comment ::)
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Ian, I am working at increasing my tolerance levels for the New Year.... it's one matter for things to be over when the fat lady sings, quite another when the end is signalled by her screaming her head off.....I'm still going to be tough on the chocolate for puns levy, though ;D
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Mark,
Promise, will do my best to take a selection of photographs during the week for your inspection.
Paddy
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Anything Unusual?
At the other end of my village is a large house with a beautiful bank of thousands of snowdrops. To my untutored eye they look like ordinary Galanthus nivalis but year-on-year they start to flower in early January, weeks before any other nivalis hereabouts. This year I begged three bulbs for my garden which are depicted here. My idea is to see if they continue to flower early when relocated.
When I planted them I noticed that they are a greener green than the glaucous green of most of my snowdrops (they are on the right in the aerial view). Can anyone else see any other unusual features I have missed?
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a good find but they are quite common in the huge snowdrop woods I was in in Scotland a couple of years ago
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My first thought was, that the leaves are much more green than common grey-green-nivalis leaves!
Are the leaves applanat? It's not clearly visible from the photo!
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My first thought was, that the leaves are much more green than common grey-green-nivalis leaves!
Are the leaves aplicat? It's not clearly visible from the photo!
I did not show the back side of the leaf but there is no folding back that I can see. And the leaves are just as narrow as a normal nivalis.
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Again I could be wrong but those leaves are missing typical elwesii hoods ie one leaf from each bulb - the leaf that wraps around the other while emerging - has a pinched tip. Thise flowers scream gracilis/hybrid to me. I'm willing to be shot down. Where's Martin when we need him?
Sorry Mark, I'm trying to finish a book that has to go to the printers next Monday. Gracilis/elwesii? I've certainly seen gracilis (or what reliable people were growing as gracilis) with leaves that wide. Then again, I've seen elwesii with pretty narrow leaves. I've also seen elwesii with leaves that twist a bit. The clincher is that elwesii should have decidedly convolute leaves, while gracilis should have applanate leaves. A close inspection of the bases of the leaves should help with ID.
Having said all that, elwesii and gracilis are obviously very closely related (they have the same DNA mass as well as looking similar) and whether they're separate species or variants of one species - well, the botanists have been having fun with these two species for decades and I doubt we've heard the last of it.
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OK. And what martin means about looking at the leaf bases is elwesii will have one leaf wrapped around the other. Applanate Galanthus have both leaf bases parallel
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OK. And what martin means about looking at the leaf bases is elwesii will have one leaf wrapped around the other. Applanate Galanthus have both leaf bases parallel
I think I know that.
Photographs are pretty meaningless sometimes for identification and just give a general idea
I have examined them in the light of day and they are all hooded and clearly elwesii. I took them to Ray to whom I had already given some and he agreed.
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Mark:"OK. And what martin means about looking at the leaf bases is elwesii will have one leaf wrapped around the other. Applanate Galanthus have both leaf bases parallel"
Tony W. :I think I know that.
Good for you, Tony, but lots of others, don't know it and are keen to learn - we try to make sure that everyone can benefit from the Forum :)
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Apropros of ebay. I am continually amused and amazed by the general public. Lady Elphinstone is for sale from three suppliers, two will sell you it on the spot and the other is up for bids. Postage on all three is £2.50.
The seller at £3 has sold 2 of the three available :)
The seller at £3.50 has sold 3 of the 4 available ::)
The one up for bids has reached £3.99 :o
I know I should get a life but this really tickles me!
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Here is the clone sold as "caucasus" by Paul Christian and said to be a dutch clone. It seems that it could be Galanthus elwesii ssp. monostictus : is it true ? How do you differenciate G. elwesii ssp. monostictus from the type ?
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Here is the clone sold as "caucasus" by Paul Christian and said to be a dutch clone. It seems that it could be Galanthus elwesii ssp. monostictus : is it true ? How do you differenciate G. elwesii ssp. monostictus from the type ?
That's 'normal' Galanthus elwesii (which should have either two marks at top and bottom of the inner petals, which may or may not be joined by a pinched-in 'waist', or a single mark which stretches all the way from top to bottom of the inner petals - still usually with a slight 'waist' in the middle).
Gal. elwesii monostictus should have one single mark at the bottom of the inner petal (the bottom of the petal as the flower hangs down) and no mark at all further up towards the other end of the inner petals.
Whether they should be separated simply on the basis of a difference in the green mark, when they're otherwise quite similar, is debatable. However, flow-cytometry analysis has shown monostictus to have a different DNA mass to normal elwesii, which strengthens the case for them being kept separate as species and sub-species.
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Thank you for this precise answer Martin :)
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There are some very nice snowdrops on Ebay, like 'Modern Art' and 'Mr Blobby' but too rich for me. :( They all seem to be coming from a chap in Cambridge?
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Yes Anthony, they are all over the top pricewise. Some do come from near Inverness! I watch it out of amusement. How anyone could bid £3.99 when they could buy it instantly for £3 is beyond me.
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well...it`s a lady allright( Beatrix Stanley)
now to be honest..who`s looking at ebay and bidding occasionaly?
I am!(nothing more than 7,50 so I don`t win!)
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Well yes Loes, but these are typical of my purchases!
How sad is that :-\
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The power of suggestion is evidently alive and well... guess who has been browsing on Ebay? ::) :-[
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Not you as well Maggie, beware the slippery slope :D
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Not to worry, Brian, I've only put about ten items on to "watch"! ::)
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About ebay, i am also watching some items, but i never see someone offering Elwesii Big boy.
I know its on Judys list but she does Uk orders only,can somebody help me please!
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There are some very nice snowdrops on Ebay, like 'Modern Art' and 'Mr Blobby' but too rich for me. :( They all seem to be coming from a chap in Cambridge?
Yes. I am curious to know who this is, as I live close to Cambridge.
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Gerard,why Big Boy,what`s so special about that one?
and Brian,I love the first one
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At Mark's request, here are photographs of a snowdrop for his consideration.
I'll leave the identification to you now, Mark.
Paddy
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About ebay, i am also watching some items, but i never see someone offering Elwesii Big boy.
I know its on Judys list but she does Uk orders only,can somebody help me please!
Gal. elwesii 'Big Boy' is illusrated in a very nice photo under elwesii cultivars on Judy's Snowdrops website www.judyssnowdrops.co.uk (http://www.judyssnowdrops.co.uk) - lots of other very nice snowdrop photos too. For those who don't know. the owner of the site and the grower of the snowdrops is Janet; Judy was her dog.
Gerard, I know Big Boy is listed on the website, but I wasn't aware that Janet was selling it.
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For the pic galleries on Judy's Snowdrops website, click 'plant profiles'.
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Loes, i think that Big boy might be polyploid so i can use it in my breedingprogram, so if anyone can help please.
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Nice plant, Paddy... I can confirm that it IS a snowdrop and, unless I am much mistaken, has plicate leaves, the folds are clearly visible.... that's all anyone NEEDS to know, isn't it ? ::) ::) 8)
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Maggi,
This is just a follow-up on a previous posting after which Mark asked for clearer photographs of the leaves as wished to clarify the identification.
But, yes, it is a good snowdrop just as it is. However, having the correct name to go with it does add to its interest.
And stop teasing us who are interested in these gorgeous flowers or you will have to forfeit some of your chocolate!
Paddy
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Aw shucks..... okay then [attach=1]
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Actually, Maggi is not suffering from 'white fever', so application of chocolate isn't required.
Paddy, that is a very nicely marked plicatus, but it will take someone far more knowledgeable than me to identify the form.
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Now here's a thought, perhaps it should be application of white chocolate ;D ;D
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Rob, Mrs Thompson is not a plicatus variety, so should not have very plicate leaves. It's a hybrid cultivar between nivalis and plicatus, which has leaves with no plication or just a very little plication on some leaves but none on others.
Really, to look at, the leaves look pretty much like a big nivalis.
Your leaves and flower look fine to me. Even when not doubling, I still think it's a nive flower, very much like Ketton.
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Martin do you think this Big boy is still alive? Have you ever seen it? Do you know somebody else besides Janet, who grows it? And for those who have one for me, i would like to pay or swap for a unnamed one out of my catalog.
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Martin do you think this Big boy is still alive? Have you ever seen it? Do you know somebody else besides Janet, who grows it? And for those who have one for me, i would like to pay or swap for a unnamed one out of my catalog.
No Gerard, I've never seen elwesii ' Big Boy' and don't know anyone who has it apart from Janet (who I assume still has it). I expect Alan Street at Avon Bulbs, who found it originally, may still have it, but they don;t sell it. Alan Street once told me it's difficult to twin-scale - it 'rests' after twin scaling, refusing to put up a leaf after making bulbils - and I don't think it's easy to grow.
Mark may know someone who has it / sells it. 'Fraid I don't have much time to getting out and about and mixing with other snowdrop growers so I'm not much use at knowing who has what.
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people I'm ill with the bug that's sweeping the country. So briefly looking in.
Like my web site Janet shows a collection of photos but she did manage to get Big Boy two years ago. I know she's watching and have asked her soooo many times to join in. The choicest bulbs have mighty prices tags because they are rare or growers are holding back on sales
Paddy yes your clump is a nice plicatus. Put me on the waiting list please
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Big Boy - I see it every Feb when I go to England for snowdrop events. I'll not say publicaly or private who has them.
Then I'm not quite sure what's the point of this part of your post. I personally find it a bit offensive when you say to me and others on the forum, in effect "I know but I'm not telling you".
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And Mark when you see it every year, why don't you have picture of it in your Gallery?
Or is taking a picture of it also not publicaly or non private.
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Mark, I really think it would be better in this sort of situation, to just say something vague like you know it is around but those who have it keep it a close secret.
To go out of your way to say that you see it every year (so know who has it) but will not say who publicly on the forum (not unreasonable) and will also not tell any of the forum members in private smacks of boasting and a public declaration of mistrust of all forum members.
That's why I take offense. I don't like being told publicly that I'm not to be trusted.
Next time, please keep that sort of comment to yourself.
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Martin I should have said for security reasons I'll not say where I see them
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Mark,
Could you make a stab at a name for that snowdrop?
And take it easy with the bug!
Paddy
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'Big Boy'
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Martin I should have said for security reasons I'll not say where I see them
Mark, editing you posting now doesn't really help. My remarks still stand. Better and less offensive to be vague than to go out of your way to say that you know but won't tell any of us even privately for fear that one of us might steal them. I understand not wanting to broadcast it to the public at large via the forum, but the implication of your wording was "don't ask because I won't tell you, no matter who you are, because I can't trust any of you." Sticking in "for security reasons" now doesn't really make it any better.
It would have been so easy to say something that no-one could take offense at. Yet you chose to imply that you did not trust anyone on this forum.
Nor was I wanting to know who has Big Boy, so telling me now in a PM as you've done isn't what I was after. I just want to make that clear, in case I should attract any further suspicion! I was trying to help out Gerard.
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Rob,
A local snowdrop garden, Altamont Gardens, Co. Carlow, which opens for a snowdrop week each year has all snowdrops very clearly labelled. Of course, they keep back-up bulbs in a back garden for safety.
Paddy
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Of course, they keep back-up bulbs in a back garden for safety
Have to say, if I were opening my garden to large numbers of people ( which thankfully, given the layout and planting, is no longer feasible) I would be inclined to have watchmen on towers with twelve bore shotguns, but that may be "overkill" as they say ::)
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I wasn't objecting to people being cautious about advertising the exact whereabouts of rare snowdrops. That's reasonable. I was objecting to the way Mark put it. A little tact and diplomacy, or simple vagueness, wouldn't have gone amiss - instead of "I know but I'm not telling you".
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Maggi,
Mind you, to the best of my knowledge they have not suffered any losses.
Paddy
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I see 'Don' (the chappie from Cambridge) is now advertising 'Trym' on ebay.
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i hear at anglsey abbey they dont have labels on any of the drops becuase they had theives before, so instead they are all numbered, and they dont give the numbered list out to anyone for fear of theives.
a good protective measure i think.
who would have thought such a little plant has so many fans!
rob
There seems to be a "dark side" to snowdrop collecting. Certain individuals will "collect" snowdrops that belong to other people! I would not describe such individuals as "fans". Unfortunately this means that when discussing desirable snowdrops on a public forum, such as this, it would be ill-judged to reveal their owner or location.
Fortunately, I believe the dishonest individuals are greatly outnumbered by honest and generous collectors.
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I wish i had never started asking about the Elwesii Big boy, because it seems to me that a single snowdrop has to be treated the same like the Royal families treasures.
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Gerard, don't feel sorry I think this has been a very sensible discussion with some interesting points made. I was told that when you view the 'special' collection at Anglesey Abbey someone is watching the group all the time, obviously they must have had a bad experience in the past. I am sure they would also have backups elsewhere. We were fortunate enough to go to Richard Ayres own garden where there were some lovely snowdrops and I am sure Anglesey Abbey grounds are big enough to have a secure corner somewhere!
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Mrs. Macnamara is a lady who performs very well indeed, I believe. Good to have the occasional woman who does so!
Paddy
This comment has NOT gone unseen or un-noted! >:( >:( >:( Shame on you Paddy. But it probably would have by me, as I've been skimming through the Galanthus pages at top speed without actually logging into the thread, just looking briefly in my Inbox. But this morning I find myself with three weeks to spare, so thought I'd take a longer look. Wish I hadn't.
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I knew this would rile you, Lesley ;) Tell you what, go catch up with the BD's log, for even as he is winging his way towards you, or perhaps, more precisely, towards Singapore at the moment, he has the first of a batch or Erythronium logs for your pleasure. ::)
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Lesley,
I thought you'd never spot it, had given up hope. After all it was posted especially for yourself and Maggi.
Are you OK for photographs of Veratrum Album, by the way? I eventually located three but by then your posts indicated you were happy with what you had received. Let me know if you want me to send them on.
Paddy
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I'll do that Maggi. I hope Ian enjoys the fabulous orchids which are on dispay at the Singapore airport. I've not seen them myself but they greatly impressed Tony Hall who, as we all know, can't usually see past a small juno iris.
Paddy that is a generous offer, considering I take every possible opportunity to be rude to you. If you have one showing the flowers clearly, I'd appreciate it. I have a good foliage one and I do think it's worth growing for the foliage alone, but flowers are special too.
There now, a comment about something white, even if not quite up to fever pitch. Had my very shaggy hair cut this morning so I'm feeling light-headed. :)
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I never got enough time to view the orchids as we changed planes at Singapore in 2004. Jean Wyllie is staying there a couple of days, having shared the flight with BD.
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Lesley,
I have continued a long term correspondence with two friends in the U.S.A. and found that it took several years of very frequent and regular correspondence for us each to read between the lines, so to speak, and understand especially our sense of humour. It really was only after meeting and spending a few days together that we understood each other. This was especially so for a friend in Maryland who simply could not get this Irish habit of 'slagging' - teasing, insulting etc all tongue in cheek. It is part of the Irish way of life to tease and make fun and feeling free to insult a person is a sign of the greatest trust in that person's sense of judgement, that they will know that it is all only tomfoolery and trickery and is entirely meant to be taken with a bucket of salt and returned in equal measure.
So, this "taking every opportunity to be rude to me" has simply washed past me as I always took it that you were having a friendly swipe and that what came this way could just as quickly be sent your way and all in good fun. Nothing more.
Now, I must go and find those photographs again.
Paddy
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Anthony, is Jean coming to NZ as well? I didn't know that.
Paddy, you're absolutely right. I always work on the principle that I'd NEVER be rude to someone I didn't like and have a real empathetic feeling for.
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I have a friend who has Big Boy who says is it worth the excitement when you have a pot of Godfrey Owen. As they all look the same to me I cannot comment. On the question of rudeness if its a friend they know its fun and if they are not .... !!!
Perhaps I should not have typed this after a couple of very large glasses of single malt.
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I think I have missed the importance of Big Boy. Is it the largest
elwesii?
Do we know its measurements so we can compare our biggest ones
with it?
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Mrs. Macnamara is a lady who performs very well indeed, I believe. Good to have the occasional woman who does so!
Paddy
This comment has NOT gone unseen or un-noted! >:( >:( >:( Shame on you Paddy. But it probably would have by me, as I've been skimming through the Galanthus pages at top speed without actually logging into the thread, just looking briefly in my Inbox. But this morning I find myself with three weeks to spare, so thought I'd take a longer look. Wish I hadn't.
Dear God, Paddy! I thought we'd left the days of such sexist jokery behind in the 70s with Bernard Manning. Try substituting 'black person' for 'woman'. Not so funny, eh? It's the 21st century. Let's behave like it.
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I have a friend who has Big Boy who says is it worth the excitement when you have a pot of Godfrey Owen. As they all look the same to me I cannot comment. On the question of rudeness if its a friend they know its fun and if they are not .... !!!
Perhaps I should not have typed this after a couple of very large glasses of single malt.
Tony, Mark wasn't joking. But I think you know that.
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Mrs. Macnamara is a lady who performs very well indeed, I believe. Good to have the occasional woman who does so!
Paddy
This comment has NOT gone unseen or un-noted! >:( >:( >:( Shame on you Paddy. But it probably would have by me, as I've been skimming through the Galanthus pages at top speed without actually logging into the thread, just looking briefly in my Inbox. But this morning I find myself with three weeks to spare, so thought I'd take a longer look. Wish I hadn't.
In fact, Paddy, let's try substituting 'Irishman' for 'woman' and see how funny that is. Another vein of humour that I think is best left in the 1970s along with Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning, don't you think? So let's not have any more sexist jokes, please!
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My Goodness Martin, you ARE getting ratty these days :) We with the broad shoulders (and other parts) can take the "jokes" so don't feel a need to leap to our defence.
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Martin, Tony, Brian, Diane thanks for the help, but like i said i wished i had never asked for a Big boy. Although it remains one of the top three wishes on my list.
Tony maybe your friend would like to sell one to me? Please!
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Lesley,being a woman we know better.we just smile ;)
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I think I have missed the importance of Big Boy. Is it the largest
elwesii?
Do we know its measurements so we can compare our biggest ones
with it?
I had to look it up in "Snowdrops" by Bishop et al (I was going to call this the Snowdrop "bible" but thought better of it as that could give rise to all sorts of offence). Apparently the flowers are very big but the rest is not particularly so. It "rarely exceeds 20cm in height" but the outer segments of the flower "average 42mm". This gives it a very striking appearance, by all accounts!
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Loes,
Reading your posting above led me to look at your profile. I hadn't realised you were female. The name 'Loes' would be very uncommon, actually never heard it previously, and so would not indicate male or female. Just another inconsistency, I suppose.
Paddy
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Paddy do you know that Glasnevin Bots had most of their choice snowdrops stolen during opening hours?
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My clump of 'John Gray' is now looking good. I left a tangle of iris leaves surrounding them so they haven't drooped.
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I know a couple of people who grow 'John Gray' in a trough where it dangles over the side
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Brilliant idea Anthony, I had comtempated moving John Gray to a trough but think this is a much better solution.
vg 10/10 ;)
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I just want to say ( having just read the last 3 or 4 pages of this thread) that I was in no way offended by Paddy's (or Mark's) remarks. I enjoy the jolly ribbing that passes between forum friends, and would trust that none of us would be so lacking in judgement to deliberately give offence.
Re John Gray, why does it need support? Are the flowers too heavy for the stalk, or the stalk too short?
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'John Gray' is an early flowering nivalis with a long stem and huge flowers which invariably lie on the ground and the slightest excuse.
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Lesley, I'm not getting ratty thank you and I wasn't defending you. I was addressing a wider question than whether you personally were offended. You may not be offended by sexism and women being casually put down as somehow less than men but a great many people are and, like racism, it has no place in a public discussion even amongst friends.
The oppression of women around the world is very really, from sniggering schoolboy jokes to being beaten, lashed and stoned for wearing the wrong clothes or inappropriate behaviour. Where do you draw the line?
Or are you saying I shouldn't say anything because I'm not a woman? I can't speak out against racism because I'm not black? I can't object to anti-semitism because I'm not jewish?
Anne, I found Paddy's comment offensive. And I found Mark's comment offensive, not just to me but to other forum members who he was effectively saying he would not trust with what he knew. There was no need for him to say that so explicitly.
I'm sure it was thoughtlessness on Mark's part rather than wanting to offend. But it was still rude to put it the way he did.
Perhaps you weren't offended because it wasn't you asking for information to help a forum friend with a request, and it wasn't you who was told in effect "I'm not telling you or anyone else because you can't be trusted with the special secret inner-circle information I've been entrusted with."
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Gerard
I am very happy to pass on your email address to my friend,let me know if this is okay, and it will be up to them if they then wish to contact you. I am not being difficult or secretive but I never give out email addresses without permission.
I know that selling is not an option but they may have one to swap.
I find all this a little difficult because I have moved in a plant world all my life where propagating difficulties species was one way of spreading them around and they have always been given freely and without obligation.If this was not the case as most are not available commercially we would all remain beginners.
'A spare is one to share'
I was going to post a witty repost to Paddy involving Mrs W. but I tried it out on her first and I am now incapacitated and in pain so I will keep it to my self.
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.......Anne, I found Paddy's comment offensive.............
Martin, I have no wish, really, to prolong your liturgy on Political Correctness because this is not what this Forum is about, but I have to say that you appear to be the only one offended by a fairly innocuous comment!
Perhaps the main strength of this Forum is it broadness in view, comment and indeed humour, centered around the main thread of plants and gardening. Long may this continue.
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'John Gray' is an early flowering nivalis with a long stem and huge flowers which invariably lie on the ground and the slightest excuse.
I planted my John Gray at the edge of a raised bed - as I had read before (possibly on here) that they looked good hanging over the side of a trough. The flowers and stems reached that height where they fall over.... and guess what?.... They fell in the opposite direction and are now laying in the mud! Twice I have pushed them towards the edge where they can hang nicely - but noooo!... they are having none of it and insist on playing in the dirt! (Typical Man?)
Lovely flowers though!
John
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Tony, thanks for your helpful response re. Gal. Big Boy. It is a shame that the snowdrop world has become a rather untrusting, wary world where people are reluctant to share helpful information.
David, how would you know whether I'm the only person offended by sexist comments on the forum. This is a public forum open for anyone to access and read and thousands do just that every week. Its contents reflect on all of us and the SRGC. I come here to talk about plants too, and to try to share information, not to read unfunny sexist remarks.
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Martin,
I posted above without seeing your postings on the previous page. It was only when I saw reference to them that I looked back, so apologies if you thought I was ignoring what you had to say; it was simply an oversight.
I feel it is very unfortunate that you were offended by any of my comments. It certainly was not my intention. This is the danger, as I expressed in a post addressed to Lesley last evening, of putting any attempt at humour in writing. It rarely conveys the feelings with which it was intended and can so very easily be misinterpreted. Indeed, the border between humour and insult can be a very thin line to tread and prone to danger. To clarify any misunderstanding let me say that I had no intention of insulting anybody, well not really insulting anybody, if you know what I mean.
Of course, any humourous comment against the person can be taken as a joke or taken as an insult depending on how the reader/listener takes it. And, yes, one can substitute whichever name/person one wishes into a previously expressed humourous comment and show how it might now be interpreted as inappropriate. Quite honestly, the insertion of 'Irishman' instead of 'woman' into any of the jokes would not be a source of any annoyance for me.
Indeed, I imagine the same jokes about women, coloured people, Irish people etc have their equivalents in each country. Here we have the 'Kerryman' jokes. In England it seems the Yorkshire people come in for their fair share of jibes and the Scottish people for the tight-fistedness. These kinds of jokes do the rounds and are changed according to circumstances and company. However, at the end of the day it is only humour, only intended as humour and certainly not meant to be offensive.
There has been a fair sprinkling of humour and banter throughout the various forums and it would be a less enjoyable place for most if that was not the case. Please look on my comments, attempts at humour, in that light.
And also important - your comments are not the cause of any insult, upset or discomfort to me. I think it is important to be clear that I simply take it as a case of you expressing your opinion, something which is most welcome and I'm sure done without any intention of being hurtful in any way.
Hopefully, this has poured some oil on troubled water.
Paddy
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Mark,
I hadn't heard anything about the snowdrops in Glasnevin. Is this a recent happening? They grow most of their snowdrops in pots in a private area of the gardens and I'm sure these will have been safe at any rate. They do have a number planted out in the woodland area alright though less in latter years than previously because of changes in staff and differing interests and priorities.
Do have a stab at a name for that plicatus. I got it from Bob as G. 'Paradise Giant', as posted previously on this thread. Have another look and see if you can even narrow down an identification. I don't know where Bob's plants came from, possibly from across the Irish Sea on one of his spring outings but where exactly I don't know. Again, it might well be the case that I got a few snowdrops at the same time from Bob and mixed up the labelling when planting. Could so easily have happened. The only consolation is that all the snowdrops I got from Bob with this one are planted together in the one bed, so if mixed up at least they are still close together and it might be possible to sort them out.
Have a go at suggesting a name. I looked through the photo gallery on Judy's Snowdrops and really couldn't say I satisfactorily matched it to any one there.
Paddy
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Lesley, Loes,
Glad that you realise my comments were only joking.
Anne,
Very disappointed you didn't find my comments insulting!!!
I really will have to brush up on my insults, feel I'm losing my touch!!!
Paddy
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Anthony,
I have a patch of G. 'John Gray' in a very sheltered spot, well protected by shrubs and a low hedge and in that situation it holds itself up reasonably well.
I imagine if planted in a situation open to the winds and rains its natural poor habit would be made all the worse.
It's a good plant all the same, good flower at any rate.
Paddy
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And now my lunchtime is over; the children are returning from the playground, eager for education, books and whatever wisdom I may impart.
So, it's time for someone else to get online and do a bit of writing - or there may well be lines, even detention, in it for someone!
Paddy
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John the trick is to have John Gray on the north side of the path. The flowers of Galanthus and Narcissus, from my observations, burst open on the south side of the spathe.
Paddy I have looked through all of my photos and I havent a clue. There are many mix ups in Bob's garden but he's relucant to change or tale away labels because "he bought them as that". I'm going down soon and will have a look. He has a book showing where everything came from
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Paddy, of course my posts were not meant to be personally hurtful to you (or to Lesley, Anne or anyone else). I just find it very sad that some people still find racist and sexist jokes acceptable. I have friends of various races, including Irish, and women and gay friends all of whom I know would be very offended and angry if I made racist, sexist or anti-gay jokes in their company. I manage to make a living from humour without resorting to racism or sexism and I'll never change my views on racism, sexism or homophobia, despite being made fun of as PC by David.
I'm suddenly finding the forum a rather friendless place and I think the quickest way to bring these disagreements to an end is for me to clear off.
It was nice knowing you all.
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Paddy, I forgot that I have his list on my computer. The bulbs came from Margaret Glynn. Margaret G's, I have her list also, came from Margaret Owen. That's where the mistake happened. Margaret O's snowdrops arent named, or numbered, but hastely lebelled from memory once a year for two days. These are for her snowdrop day, please no snow this year!, and her MS day. Paddy if you take a good close up I'll look for it in her garden
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Martin, I can see where you are coming from and we are all a wee bit older and wiser. I have certainly my time on the naughty step, but things eventually blow over and all is forgotten if not forgiven and we move on. No matter what, I don't think it is worth throwing all the toys out of the pram. Perhaps we should now draw a line under this and move on?
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Yes, please move on and get back to the snowdrops.
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Paddy, as both Yorkshire and a woman, and matriarch of a family who love insulting each other, it would take more than that to bother me. Neither am I offended by Martin's recent posts, as his opinions are as valid as anyone else's. I think the forum will be poorer for lack of his input and expertise in snowdrop breeding, and will be sorry if he leaves us. There is always the Moan, Moan, moan thread....
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I am busy putting upsidedown empty hanging baskets over my very favourite snowdrops in attempt to encourage the builders off my flower beds. :'( At the weekend I noticed the label for 'Greenish' snapped in half and a size 10 dent in the ground. The shoots, which are less than 1 cm showing, seem to be OK. Phew ???
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Martin,
Really no need to withdraw from the forum. You have made your points clearly and well and I'm sure they will be taken on board by members.
As you say yourself, time to get back to the snowdrops.
Paddy
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Mark,
That's a great idea. Many thanks. I'll get the camera out.
Paddy
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Paddy, I need to take a break anyway. Lots of work pressures right now and I've been spending too much time on the forum. The deadlines won't wait.
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Martin,
If needs be then needs must, but make it a short break.
And best wishes with the deadlines.
Paddy
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Good that this is now clarified, so let's go on with Galanthus:
G. fosteri and G. plicatus ssp bycantinus in my garden
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Thomas how does fosteri grow for you outside? Is it OK? I'm planning of putting mine out in the garden this year
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This one grows good outside after two years, but I have another form, which didn't get any
flowers after 3 years. It would be best just to try yours and see what happens!
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Friends, I feel it is I who must apologise, since I began all this by saying, in response to a photo of G. Mrs Macnammarra, that she was a fine big goodlooking woman. Thus all the following comments can be firmly laid at my door and so, I beg forgiveness of you all for any offence and for starting this fracas.
I must say that I believe, and I am constantly told this, that one of the joys of this Forum is the friendly and jovial banter which enlivens the purely plant based comments. I would be loathe to lose that aspect but I am sure that no-one here wishes to cause upset and so I, for one ,will try to be more circumspect in future.
I quite appreciate your comments about your deadlines, Martin, but I hope that you will soon return to us, since we value your input greatly.
Galanthus 'John Gray' is a fine plant, but would be more useful if self-supporting....more work for someone's breeding programme, I hope 8)
Good to see the snowdrops beginning with you, Thomas.
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Your fosteri outside is a few days ahead of mine in the greenhouse Thomas. I don't have enough to try outside.
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I don't have a greenhouse to try it inside ;D
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Thomas - nice, healthy looking, plants.
I grow my g. fosteri outside, under the canopy of a Horse Chestnut tree, which seems to give it the really dry period that it needs in the summer and that extra bit of protection against the worst of the weather, particularly the frosts, in the winter - it has flowered consistently for me in this location.
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Some more pictures of my 'drop of the moment. I tried, not entirely successfully, to clean it up before taking the photographs. Both shots are the same flower from much the same angle but in the first picture the flower was back-illuminated by sunlight and in the second picture the flower had moved into the shade.
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I grow too my Galanthus fosteri outside - since 7 years ....it is not a problem in my climate .
In my collection I have one form from near the syrian border and the other is from the middle of Turkey
My plants flowering also in this time...
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I find all this a little difficult because I have moved in a plant world all my life where propagating difficulties species was one way of spreading them around and they have always been given freely and without obligation.If this was not the case as most are not available commercially we would all remain beginners.
'A spare is one to share'
Tony's remark started me thinking about which plants are freely shared
and which have become "collector's plants", with high prices and theft.
I wonder about the reasons. Maybe the plant needs to be rather slow at
increasing, and grow as "singles". No one is going to steal something that
forms a mat or gallops across the ground with runners. Fancy Japanese
hepaticas are grown in pots and fetch enormous prices. I don't know whether
they get stolen. I think they have reached the market fairly recently as
before that the owners preferred having the only specimen.
There are lots of forms of Anemone nemorosa and Ranunculus ficaria,
and collectors of them, but I don't know of anyone making a living selling
them. Maybe they increase too fast and therefore remain among the
plants that are freely given.
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Tony it is no problem when you give my emailaddress to your friend, like you said there wont happen anything if you take no action. I let you know when and if i can get it off my wantinglist.Thanks anyway.
Martin would you please stay on this forum, because i would like to share information about snowdropbreeding etc on this forum with you, so that others who are interested dont have to reinvent the wheel again.
This is what this forum is for, to help everyone who needs information etc about the things we are growing. So lets just trust each other, because that is what friendship and peace is built on.
About snowdrops Martin, after chipping when the chips refuse to form leaves, give them a week -1 celsius( in a adjustable fridge, most are, and check with a thermometer)and if they still dont, repeat this. They will certainly start now.
Next spring i will take some leave samples from several species to find out about there ploiditylevel.
I let you know the results, because i would like you to stay on the same level of development.
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Yes Maggi, i dont know it in fahrenheit, it was a reaction on the difficulty of the Big boy chips, to get them started because they tend to stay dormant after chipping.
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Hmmm, how to get the -1 degree place to put them? ???
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Do what Brian Duncan has done and bought himself a chiller cabinet for the shed
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For just a week? Stick them in the freezer...or in the fridge near the freezer. My guess is they don't NEED to be frozen, just kept cold--the fridge itself should do.
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Here are some photos from today
elwesii 'Elmley Lovitt' - not sure of the spelling - she's a tall elegant beauty
elwesii 'Natalie Garten' like a wee birds egg
DB's early byzantinus
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Today in a garden centre I saw pots of 'Galanthus nivalis' which were plainly a mixture of at least 3 species. Is it likely these are harvested from the wild or farmed? Anyone any inside knowledge?
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Wild most likely sent to shipping agents and I would guess nivalis, woronowii and elwesii. Once in Holland for 3 months they're Dutch - allegedly