Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: wmel on January 17, 2016, 04:54:30 PM
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It's a nice day to open the new allium season of 2016,
We have the first real frost and a little snow of this winter here today.
I hope I can find some more time to post photo's of our allium fields and allium collection this year.
Last year there was no time left.......
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Some views from last year....
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some more
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Hard to believe right now that these days will come again!
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Magnifique, l'effet de masse ... :)
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Allium oreophilum ‘Sulev's Dwarf’ from Janis :)
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I did not know this one
It is very interesting
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a form selected by Sulev Savisaar
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a form selected by Sulev Savisaar
.... who is an Estonian bulb grower .... this from 2015 : http://www.hot.ee/sibullilled/ (http://www.hot.ee/sibullilled/)
See more about him : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=124.0 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=124.0)
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Our allium field today.
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So much growth, Wietse!
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So much growth, Wietse!
It is very early this year! we had a little frost so far, but that was only a few days and no real cold period.
The weather now is wet and normal, so they don't grow to fast now.....
I hope we don't get any real frost anymore.......
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A query regarding Allium bodeanum.
Several sites I have looked at suggest this is a synonym of Allium cristophii but many suppliers and members of this forum use Allium bodeanum.
Is someone able to explain the apparent confusion and current nomenclature, please?
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The Catalogue of Life says that A. christophii is the accepted name while A.bodeanum is a synonym for the same plant.
http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/details/species/id/8917f894290022bd855ab20c9f6df4ed/synonym/8881fa03d02f9e72359a3b47c2442615 (http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/details/species/id/8917f894290022bd855ab20c9f6df4ed/synonym/8881fa03d02f9e72359a3b47c2442615)
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That is what I have found on several sites, Lori. Most confusing is:
http://www.eu-nomen.eu/portal/taxon.php?GUID=A9137916-9B04-4ED2-9783-CB963E2752C5# (http://www.eu-nomen.eu/portal/taxon.php?GUID=A9137916-9B04-4ED2-9783-CB963E2752C5#)
where they call A. bodeanum a 'heterotypic synonym', which I don't pretend to fully understand.
Why is it them that some noted suppliers and members of this forum are using A. bodeanum?
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Why is it them that some noted suppliers and members of this forum are using A. bodeanum?
Habit?
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Why is it them that some noted suppliers and members of this forum are using A. bodeanum?
Surely not just to sell more bulbs to unsuspecting bulb collectors ??? :o
cheers
fermi
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Habit?
Could be, Maggi.
When I was gardening, several years ago, in the Midlands, we grew Allium cristophii. It wasn't until I started a new garden up here that I became aware of A. bodeanum as a synonym. It must have been some time ago for it to take hold so I wonder when it reverted back to its original name?
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Allium bodeanum was distributed under that name by Jim Archibald, who listed it thus:
Allium bodeanum (Sect. Acanthoprason) No data but originally from an Anne Ala coll. A splendid endemic of Khorasan, in NE Iran, & adjacent Turkmenistan. Related to A. cristophii but with fewer, shorter, wider, falcate, blue-grey leaves & a shorter, fatter scape carrying a huge, spherical umbel of large, starry, violet-purple flowers with whitish perigonia. Rated as highly garden-worthy by Per Wendelbo & “certainly one of the more remarkable species of its genus.”
I suppose some people and nurseries may hang on to that name if the original source of their material was Archibald.
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Thanks, Diane.
So Jim saw it as sufficiently distinct to give it a new species name, but later wisdom has synonymised them. With Jim's keep eye, perhaps a sub-specific rank would have been more appropriate?
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That is what I have found on several sites, Lori. Most confusing is:
http://www.eu-nomen.eu/portal/taxon.php?GUID=A9137916-9B04-4ED2-9783-CB963E2752C5# (http://www.eu-nomen.eu/portal/taxon.php?GUID=A9137916-9B04-4ED2-9783-CB963E2752C5#)
where they call A. bodeanum a 'heterotypic synonym', which I don't pretend to fully understand.
Why is it them that some noted suppliers and members of this forum are using A. bodeanum?
So it's saying the same thing as The Catalogue of Life, namely that A. christophii is the accepted name and A. bodeanum is a synonym. (Note that I have no opinion on this - I'm just reporting what a taxonomic nomenclature site says.)
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Thanks, Diane.
So Jim saw it as sufficiently distinct to give it a new species name, but later wisdom has synonymised them. With Jim's keep eye, perhaps a sub-specific rank would have been more appropriate?
Jim didn't name it, it was named in 1875
http://www.ipni.org/ipni/idPlantNameSearch.do?id=527693-1 (http://www.ipni.org/ipni/idPlantNameSearch.do?id=527693-1)
There must be some taxonomy issues to have combined them.
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Jim didn't name it, it was named in 1875
http://www.ipni.org/ipni/idPlantNameSearch.do?id=527693-1 (http://www.ipni.org/ipni/idPlantNameSearch.do?id=527693-1)
There must be some taxonomy issues to have combined them.
So A. cristophii must predate 1875 to take precedence.
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It may be that A.bodeanum, collected from a discrete geographical region was thought to be/described as a new species but later has been reviewed and decided that it either falls within the range of natural variability for A.christophii or is insufficiently distinct from it and so demoted to a synonym? I'm sure we all have plants under incorrect names that preserve their association with collectors or their locations.
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From the Kew Plant List ......
Allium bodeanum Regel is a synonym of Allium cristophii Trautv.
This name is a synonym of Allium cristophii Trautv..
The record derives from WCSP (data supplied on 2012-03-23) which reports it as a synonym (record 295146) with original publication details: Trudy Imp. S.-Peterburgsk. Bot. Sada 3(2): 238 1875.
Allium cristophii Trautv. is an accepted name
This name is the accepted name of a species in the genus Allium (family Amaryllidaceae).
The record derives from WCSP (data supplied on 2012-03-23) which reports it as an accepted name (record 295301) with original publication details: Trudy Imp. S.-Peterburgsk. Bot. Sada 9: 268 1884.
So A. bodeanum was the earlier description - no understanding these taxonomists, I reckon! :-\ :-X
(It's not that I consider the Kew Plant List to be infallible)
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So A. bodeanum was the earlier description - no understanding these taxonomists, I reckon!
I think Matt's theory is the correct one ;)
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I think Matt's theory is the correct one ;)
Very likely, but it doesn't "square" with the accepted info we're given about earliest names getting precedence, does it?
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The priority principle applies only if the name was 'validly and legitimately' published. So, there can be many reasons, it doesn't suffice only to look at the publication year. A quick look on http://www.tropicos.org/Name/18400012 (http://www.tropicos.org/Name/18400012) reveals that
A. christophii is an invalid name.; A. bodeanum is nom. rej. against Allium christophii Trautv. (nom. cons.)
It seems that there was some misspelling since a first publication gives Allium cristophii, which was an ann. of Allium cristophi.
The first collector of the species was Cristoph.
Fritsch, R. M. 1999. (1419) Proposal to conserve the name Allium cristophii, preferably with the spelling A. christophii, against A. bodeanum (Liliaceae). Taxon 48(3): 577–579.
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There are some exceptions to the rule, where a name that actually has precedence is rejected in favour of another, i.e. because its usage is so well established. There's an example I was reading about recently but can't recall right now, a Galanthus species maybe. It'll come back to me.
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Super sleuthing, well done Gabriela.
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Super sleuthing, well done Gabriela.
Hear, hear!! Well done, Gabriela.
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It'll come back to me.
I like the optimism of youth - nothing comes back to me these days. ???
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Hear, hear!! Well done, Gabriela.
Third-ed.
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Thank you Matt and Maggi.
I really just got curious, I am not into Alliums. The Plant list doesn't provide too many details so I'm not into it either ::)
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One needs to look no further than the recent landmark publication "A Taxonomic Review of Allium subg. Melanocrommyum in Iran", by Reinhard Fritsch & Merhdad Abbasi, Gatersleben 2013, 244 pages. It's available as a free PDF download, fully illustrated with color photographs, a superb work.
http://www.ipk-gatersleben.de/gbisipk-gaterslebendegbis-i/spezialsammlungen/allium-review/ (http://www.ipk-gatersleben.de/gbisipk-gaterslebendegbis-i/spezialsammlungen/allium-review/)
Then see Taxa #49 Allium pseudobodeanum (A. bodeanum sensu Wendelbo, Flora Iranica 1971). At the bottom of the botanical description there's some discussion, here's a snippet:
"Wendelbo (1977) used the name A. bodeanum for small and compact plants with smooth
broad leaves, shorter scape, and whitish-lilac flowers as pictured in his book "Tulips and Irises of Iran".
After rejection of the name A. bodeanum (Brummitt 2001), the taxon meant by Wendelbo remained
without name and was described as A. pseudobodeanum. Later investigations showed that two taxa
were involved, pale forms of A. elburzense, and A. pseudobodeanum."
Search on the name "bodeanum" to find other misapplied IDs, with bodeanum in synonymy with cristophii and ellisii.
ps: the onion man returns :)
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ps: the onion man returns :)
Yay!
We've missed you!
cheers
fermi
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Thanks Mark, we now have the nub of the issue.
No doubt A. bodeanum and A. cristophii (A, christophii) will still be used in tandem.
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That is what I have found on several sites, Lori. Most confusing is:
http://www.eu-nomen.eu/portal/taxon.php?GUID=A9137916-9B04-4ED2-9783-CB963E2752C5# (http://www.eu-nomen.eu/portal/taxon.php?GUID=A9137916-9B04-4ED2-9783-CB963E2752C5#)
where they call A. bodeanum a 'heterotypic synonym', which I don't pretend to fully understand.
Why is it them that some noted suppliers and members of this forum are using A. bodeanum?
There is a new treatment of this section of allium by Fritsch, at least for Iran.
If I am right there were several different Iranian plants circulating in the past under the name A. bodeanum. Therefore the name A. bodeanum is rejected and replaced by several new descriptions.
One of these new names is A. pseudobodeanum.
A. pseudobodeanum and A. christophii are clearly different species for me. I have to look it up but I think they are growing in a different area in Iran.
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Luc, see my message 3 messages above, I gave the download link + info on the new Reinhard Fritsch treatment of Allium subgenus melanocrommyum in Iran. Many new species described and pictured, many confusing taxa sorted out.
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However there is proof a lot of plants, bulbs or whatever are wrong named, and I know because I get a lot of these "new" alliums year after year, Stil there are sometimes alliums that are not the species I had bought, but also not something I know from my own collection.
One of these is allium bodeanum. The one I grow is a kind of cristopii, but not like the one that is normaly in trade, so as long as I don't know the real name I grow it under the name I bought it: bodeanum.
photo 1 allium cristopii
photo 2 allium elburzense
photo 3 allium bodeanum
photo 4 allium pseudobodeanum
photo 5 allium ellisii
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Thia was grown from Kurt Vickery seed labelled A. polyphyllum. This is apparently a synonym for A. carolinianum, but this doesn't look anything like Mark's picture on PBS.
It is not rhizomatous and the leaves are 30-36mm long and 4-5mm wide.
I would be grateful for an opinion.
Erle in Anglesey
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Allium falcifolium
A. tolmiei var. platyphyllum
A. pallasii
Allium sp., Kop Pass, E Turkey Any suggestions what this might be?
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Very nice alliums, Ashley
1. Allium bodeanum
2. Allium shelkovnikovii
3-5. Allium iliensis naturiensis
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From the garden today:
Allium uniflorum.
A quite scruffy A. karataviensis with an even scruffier white form
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Start of the Alliums here with the tiny Allium chamaemoly
cheers
fermi
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Yes Fermi
Here always the first in flower of the new year
What I call a inconspicuously conspicuous one
Roland
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Allium neapolitanum is very vigorous this year; first flowers opening now,
cheers
fermi
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Allium peninsulare is in flower again
cheers
fermi
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Nice colour Fermi.
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Yes, David,
and repeated in this little one,
Allium falcifolium grown from Ron Ratko seed sown in 2009
cheers
fermi
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Nice, lovely colour.
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I have a soft spot for these darker flowers.
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Fermi,
I agree, your Allium falcifolium have a nice deep rich color. The form I grow has a much more pastel color. Sometimes the foliage looks a little worn-out when in bloom too. Very well grown. Congratulations! Very 8)
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A newly described species with free access to the paper... a new Allium species from Turkey, Allium dumanii, published in Wildenowia 2016.
Allium dumanii (A. sect. Codonoprasum, Amaryllidaceae), a new species from E Turkey Author(s): Mine Koçyiğıt , Yeter Yeşıl & Mehmet Koyuncu Source: Willdenowia, 46():113-119. Published By: Botanic Garden and Botanical Museum Berlin (BGBM)
http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.3372/wi.46.46109 (http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.3372/wi.46.46109)
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Fermi,
I agree, your Allium falcifolium have a nice deep rich color. The form I grow has a much more pastel color. Sometimes the foliage looks a little worn-out when in bloom too. Very well grown. Congratulations! Very 8)
Just for information I've pasted the following from the current Alplains catalogue:-
"Allium falcifolium (Liliaceae) (7x12,Z6,P,C,3:6w) ............................................................ 50 seeds / $3.50 30054.34 (W) Josephine Co., OR, 2300ft, 701m. Over 2 strapping leaves arise large, round, short-stemmed heads up to 3" across of amethyst flowers with acuminate petals. On W-facing serpentine."
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A newly described species with free access to the paper... a new Allium species from Turkey, Allium dumanii, published in Wildenowia 2016.
Allium dumanii (A. sect. Codonoprasum, Amaryllidaceae), a new species from E Turkey Author(s): Mine Koçyiğıt , Yeter Yeşıl & Mehmet Koyuncu Source: Willdenowia, 46():113-119. Published By: Botanic Garden and Botanical Museum Berlin (BGBM)
http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.3372/wi.46.46109 (http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.3372/wi.46.46109)
Aha Maggi, you've been visiting the Alliorum FaceBook group ;-)
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You're not here often, McMark, it turned up on my timeline and I thought this was a good link for members so I added it. . 8)
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It is a good link for SRGC members and any Allium fans, thx.
Yes, I should be checking into SRGC more often; it's funny how after retiring, I find myself busier than ever!
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It is a complete mystery to me, McMark, how anyone ever has time to go to work!
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Seconded.
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It is a complete mystery to me, McMark, how anyone ever has time to go to work!
I agree, been wondering about that for four decades :P
Yet I know people who are bored silly when they're not working, with zero motivating interests; that aspect has been a complete mystery to me.
By the way, to add a pertinent Allium note to this topic, with the maturing of The Plant List (TPL), accurate approximation of species count in a large genus such as Allium is becoming more meaningful. Depending on how one displays the list of species in TPL, there can be a genus summary at the bottom, here's the updated summary for Allium. I've been testing this with recently published species, takes TPL a while to catch up, so there remains a number of valid species names still missing, including Allium dumanii. The genus Allium is about ~1000 taxa.
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Exciting news for Allium fans!
On Wed Dec 7th, I received email from Reinhard Fritsch announcing "Today electronically published: A preliminary Revision of Allium subg. Melanocrommyum in Central Asia (in English, key also in Russian)" The abstract descibes the key features to the monumental taxonomic work.
http://dx.doi.org/10.5447/IPK/2016/60 (http://dx.doi.org/10.5447/IPK/2016/60)
Alternate link to the abstract:
https://doi.ipk-gatersleben.de/DOI/3a44112c-340e-442e-ac65-720ee85c38df/833a14d4-3a8e-4cf9-8a0b-50a40144e490/2 (https://doi.ipk-gatersleben.de/DOI/3a44112c-340e-442e-ac65-720ee85c38df/833a14d4-3a8e-4cf9-8a0b-50a40144e490/2)
There is a download link to 288-page PDF document "A Preliminary Review of Allium subg. Melanocrommyum in Central Asia" by Reinhard M. Fritsch (note: this is different, newer and more geographically expansive, than his other impressive work on Melanocrommyum Allium in Iran). The PDF is cryptically entitled MiasReviewEnd1.pdf, so I recommend renaming the PDF after download to its true title.
I have confirmed from Reinhard that his scholarly tome is free to download and share with others, a spectacular gift to any "student" of the genus Allium.
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Thank you, Mark, for the reference. It has been successfully downloaded
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Happy Christmas! Right on cue, Allium flavum tauricum is in bloom, these are in the garden,
cheers
fermi